Don’t buy used McCormack DNA 1990s amps

@ozzy62 Same. It came down to doing full upgrades (with Gravity Base) for around $2500 for what’s basically a new and much better amp than I had or find something else for around $3k and risk I wouldn’t like it as much. I’m happy and likely have my forever amp.  Nice system BTW.  Love the combo of the Sachs with the 0.5 — that must be one sweet pairing.  I lust after putting a Spatial Raven in front of my 0.5 some day.  Never ends. 

@gdaddy1  Like I said I kind of remember Steve reversing that statement, but I’m not gonna go search for it.  It’s a serious issue so you should just call them.  

As a 30 year owner of a DNA 0.5 with deluxe upgrade, it’s good to hear from Steve Mc, that the board problem exists only in the 1.0.

@gdaddy1 Unfortunately that’s not true — the input board on my DNA 0.5 Rev A failed after about 35 years and it is definitely an issue with this amp as well as the DNA 1 and I’m pretty sure also with the DNA 2 although I think they did say the DNA 1 was the worst offender. I think Steve later corrected himself on this.  I will say that Steve and Pat are big proponents of leaving the amp on and that it significantly prolongs the life of the amp, so if I was you I’d leave the amp on 24/7 (or at least avoid turning it on/off very often) unless you’re going away for several days.  They believe this to the extent that when they upgraded my amp a few years ago they disabled the power switch that became just a dummy light so that whenever the amp was plugged in it is on.  Pat told me they have since found a magnetic switch that they’re comfortable with so they use that now, but you get the point.  FWIW  

Steve still the best place to upgrade and recap if you still want to stick with the best sound from DNA. Don’t listen to bs Soix.  I have good enough skill to repair and upgrade Krell, Adcom, DnA-1 and others

@seattlerepairhobby  Well good for you.  For the rest of us mere mortals when the input board goes as mine did — and it will go at some point due to the design and age — you’re looking at a $2500+ bill at SMcAudio to overhaul the amp because they don’t just repair the input board.  That’s a bitter pill to swallow when it happens and what I wanted prospective buyers to know before spending their hard-earned $$$ on an older McCormack amp.  The newer generation amps don’t suffer from this problem BTW.

@wturkey  Just be aware that if your amp has the original input board it’s very likely to fail at some point.  Hope yours holds on for a long time. 🤞

Well, I had a good conversation with Pat this morning and it appears it would be unfair to malign him or SMC audio over this incident. It looks like this was probably more the result of a miscommunication with a seldom-used outside sales person that deviated from his normal "direct-to-consumer" sales approach.

@fishagedone Hey, all I did is call you out on something that just didn’t sound right That’s all so don’t make it more than that. As you’ve now admitted you were mistaken and that’s fine — it happens to all of us at one time or another My goal was not to belittle you at all but rather to challenge your account of events because on the surface they didn’t make sense given my experience with the company That’s it. As for @rubicon15 you’re basically a baby here and nothing you say means anything to me so don’t even bother.

@rubicon15  Hey, he was berating a reputable business unfairly and I called him out on it and I was right.  Sorry if that hurts your little feelings. 

@cheeg  I think it depends on what version of the upgrades you have.  Mine was done a couple years ago and my power switch is just a dummy light — not my favorite feature.  Should be pretty easy to tell if your power switch is active just by turning the amp off while music is playing.  Whether the music stops or not will give you your answer.  Patrick told me their newest upgrade uses a magnetic power switch so if you do an upgrade now you get an active power switch. 

Patrick didn’t refer me to the agent. The agent introduced me to Patrick and I spoke with Patrick about it.
 

Your story is now contradicting itself   This is what you wrote before  

Let me put it this way, when I asked Pat about how much it would cost to upgrade to balanced inputs and an external power supply, he stated that he could not discuss pricing with me and I had to go through this agent.

You can’t even keep your story straight.  Stop blaming SMcAudio for some agent who quoted you an unfair price.

So Patrick referred you to an agent?  Why the hell would he do that???  Nothing about this seems right. 

Here’s the problem — SMcAudio is only Steve and Patrick so whatever salesperson you spoke to does not work for SMcAudio as you imply.  

@fishagedone So, here’s the thing, I just flat out don’t believe your little story and it strains credibility in every way. I don’t know what your motivation is, but for you to come here and try to denigrate a company of the highest integrity is disgusting. At the very least you’re misrepresenting that the salesman you were dealing with works for SMcAudio because they don’t have any salespeople.  It’s just Steve and Patrick and that’s it. 
 

@fishagedone  I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t pass the smell test.  I and many people here have dealt with SMcAudio for years and they’ve been nothing but straight shooters.  Plus, as far as I know they don’t have a sales force.  This sounds like bullcrap. 

@vair68robert Yeah, you’re right and that was probably a bit harsh and I apologize.  It was, however misleading. 

@vair68robert Like I said, CJ and McCormack were involved in producing a few models but nothing much more than that. They were certainly not “sister companies.”

@ram360j CJ is not the sister company of McCormack.  They had a business relationship for a few models that CJ may support and that’s it.  There are decades of legacy McCormack amps that CJ has no relationship with nor responsibility for and likely will in no way support.  Not even McCormack will repair their legacy models, especially if the repair involves the critical input board.  Please don’t spread crap you have no knowledge of. 

The input boards are repairable as he and I talked about what needed to be done (time intensive).

@atlvalet Yeah, that’s why SMcAudio is no longer doing only the repair. Time intensive = expensive and/or not worth the shop’s time/effort to repair.

@roxy54 Unfortunately not.  I’m going through a divorce so my time at home is very limited, but whenever I finally get to hear the damn thing I’ll certainly forward my thoughts.  But, I also have to qualify my impressions as I simultaneously changed my preamp to a Linear Tube Audio MZ2 with upgraded LPS (that I’m also using as my top headphone amp) from my former, and excellent, Bryston BP-6.  So, I really can’t give an apples to apples comparison, but I’ll definitely forward my impressions for whatever they’re worth.  Hopefully will be within a month or so.  Sorry for the delay. 

@stevemcx Thanks for chiming in here Steve — most helpful.  Not to get too much into the weeds here, but I’d think since I assume both the DNA-1 and 0.5 input boards were designed around the same time and assuming they’re more alike than different, what makes the DNA-1 board more prone to failure, or, what makes the 0.5 board less prone to failure?  Just curious because that’s very interesting.  Sorry to take your time, but thanks for any thoughts. 

Soix, if we let you down with your DNA-225, I do apologize. I wish we could give it another shot.

@stevemcx You guys recently upgraded my DNA 0.5 and did not let me down in any way whatsoever — not sure who the unhappy DNA 225 is but definitely not me.  I was surprised to learn the input board hasn’t been an issue with the DNA 0.5 and was under the impression that was an issue with virtually all your amps from the 1990s era.  I’m honestly a bit confused here.  

@pkatsuleas No risk of fire that I’ve heard of.  My amp started taking longer to power on, then worked sporadically and then not at all.  Hopefully yours hangs on for a while 🤞🤞🤞.  I’d suggest not turning it on and off a lot, and if it’s in your system just leave it on 24/7.  

@kchamber Thanks for sharing this valuable info!

@davidbeagrace The only place I’m aware of who renews/upgrades the amps is SMcAudio who built the amps originally but worth exploring CJ.  However, you might also wanna contact @bigkidz as he may be willing/able to help as well. 

@davidbeagrace Good question to which there is no easy answer as it’s a very personal decision. I ultimately decided to upgrade my DNA 0.5 RevA at SMcAudio when it failed for the following reasons:

• I really like the sound of my amp
• I know getting the amp upgraded will just give me more of everything I already like, so it’s a pretty sure bet
• The upgrade cost with partial gravity base was “only” $2500 and would basically give me a whole new amp
• The other amps I was considering that I was fairly confident would be a significant upgrade we’re all >$5000
• I didn’t really want to go thru the whole search process to find another amp

Taking all those things into account drove me to go with the upgrade. Due to a problem with my preamp I haven’t been able to listen to the amp but hoping I will this weekend, but I’ll forward thoughts once I’ve got some hours on it. Sorry about your amp — I know it sucks — but hope this helps, and best of luck with your decision.

@mrdecibel Completely agree with you on all points.  But, the difference here is there is one specific part that has already shown itself very prone to failure for a very specific design reason and, unlike many other older amps and makes it more than likely for the fail and not easily or cheaply repaired because of it.  Again, my purpose here was to alert people who may be considering these 1990s amps, that come up for sale quite often, to at least be aware that they’ve got this very fragile and weak link that has, in fact, been failing because this specific part just doesn’t last much more than 20 years.  Granted with amps of this age it’s totally buyer beware, but I thought it helpful given this specific situation and failing part that people might at least like to know this going in.  Wouldn’t you?  Given what I know (and have experienced personally) I certainly would not buy one of these amps unless my plan was to get it upgraded, because there are plenty of other great used amps out there that do not have this specific degrading part and that, even if they do have an issue, can be repaired much easier and cheaper.  But that’s me. 

Contrary to the possible intent, it does no one any favors.

@audphile1 First, let me be clear I have no business relationship with SMcAudio other than having them upgrade my amp, and implying that was why I made this post is way off base and insulting.  And I couldn’t disagree more that this post does no one any favors.  If I’m buying a used amp from someone I sure as hell would wanna know if it’s got a good chance of failing and that there’s little chance you’ll find anyone else out there to try to fix the board.  Now, if someone knows this info going in and decides to buy a 1990s DNA amp that’s their choice, but at least they’re going in with their eyes wide open and THAT was my main reason for starting this thread.  My amp failed, and there have been several other non-working DNA 0.5 and 1 amps being sold solely for parts and there surely will be many more just due to the design of the board and time.  Sorry if I maybe could’ve worded this post differently, but make no mistake the intent behind it was purely to be helpful as these amps come up for sale fairly frequently.  

You're correct I pulled that number out of my butt, using nothing but my 35yrs of experience designing and working on electronics in semiconductor manufacturing and research.
 

Yes, you pulled that number outta your butt.  But you don’t have 35 years working with McCormack amps, nor did you design or build them.  I’m spreading info from the guys WHO ACTUALLY BUILT THE AMPS.  Tell u what — I’ll go back to the guys WHO ACTUALLY BUILT THE AMP and tell you why you’re absolutely wrong..  

However, I’d be willing to bet that 50% or more of them will still be kicking with their original input boards 10 years from now.

@kchamber You’d be willing to bet based on what? Faith? Other people’s money? Where does 50% even come from? Outta your butt? You’re willing to “bet” means precisely ZERO to someone buying one of these amps. And by the way, who wants to buy an amp with a 50% failure rate even if you’re right, which you probably are not. The design is prone to failure, especially after 20+ years for the reasons stated by the guys who built the amps, which is not you. Period.

@nymarty Sorry to undermine the potential sale of your amp and glad your is still working!  And yes, I’ll let you know my thoughts on the amp once I get some hours on her.  
As promised, here’s the reply from SMcAudio on the input board issue…

The through-hole plating issue is a global issue with the driver pcbs for DNA-1, DNA-0.5, HT-1, HT-3, DNA-2 and ALD-1.  It affects the power supply, driver stages and protection circuit on the PCB.

  It is a real problem that caused us and our customers lots of grief as odd failures were repaired only to have a different odd failure crop up weeks or months later. Attempting to repair these boards reliably becomes an expensive game of Wack-A-Mole and often results in solder doing the job of carrying power and signal instead of copper which sounds bad and isn’t reliable.

 The issue does not affect the output PCBs of these listed amps nor do they affect the Virginia Series amplifiers such as the DNA-125, and DNA-225 because these amps only have plating on one side of the PCB (so through-hole plating issues will never be a problem)

 We made the decision in late 2014 to no longer work on these boards and made a replacement PCB that eliminates the potential of plating issues (better PCB material, much heavier plating and redundant vias where necessary)

These PCBs are superior in everyway and have proven to be exceptionally reliable and they incorporate the 20 years of mods and revisions that SMc Audio has developed however the replacement PCB is not a drop-in replacement and requires additional work on the amplifier.

 Hope this helps.  People can always give us a call if they’d like to.

@fsonicsmith Very interesting about the power cord thing, and what a classic pic of The Speaker Company!!!

@soix - you cannot say that the board cannot be repaired by anyone.  Do you do repair work yourself?  Any product can be repaired unless the parts cannot be identified or there are no replacement parts available.  That being said, you do not have to get a new board made, you can simply made the part point-to-point wired and get rid of the board altogether.  But you need a competent repair person like we do.

@bigkidz Due respect for your skills and knowledge that I’ll never have, but I don’t think I said the board couldn’t be repaired by anyone.  In fact, Pat told me people had repaired them by soldering in the “cracks” in the board but that the board would just fail soon after as other “cracks” appeared.  The point-to-point solution makes a ton of sense to me, and had I’d known you could do such a thing I’d surely have contacted you, but what would such a repair cost?  Whatever input board SMcAudio uses in their upgrades should last 30+ years along with all the other parts upgrades and Gravity Base I got with the rebuild.  Sounds like you think I did the wrong thing, so just wondering what my other options would’ve been or what you would’ve done?  Very honestly curious of your thoughts. 

@curiousjim Great question, and yes upgraded SMcAudio upgraded amps do rarely show up for sale, but the same rules still apply — if the input board hasn’t been replaced you’re dancing with the devil. Whether it’s worth the $$$ for the upgrades, we’ll, I’m gonna have to get back to you on that cause I honestly, and frustratingly, haven’t gotten to listen to the damn thing yet but I will say this though — Steve has been refining his amps over decades — think Porsche 911 — so my bet is the classic has only gotten MUCH better but I’ll definitely letcha know fer sure. Please feel free to text me if I don’t follow up in enough time for you. Also, if u in the NYC area you’re more than welcome to come listen for yourself. After all, what are we if not a supportive community? And this offer extends to my other A’gon brother/sisters as well if anyone else who might wanna hear this amp with their own music.  Just sayin’.  We get what we give, right?

@mitch2 That is a REALLY interesting perspective considering you compared your SMcAmps to some of the best amps ever made, at least IMHO. But, you just exemplified why I chose to upgrade my humble DNA-0.5 RevA rather than just buying another amp.

For any who may care, I’ll post my impressions of my new, fully-upgraded DNA 0.5 with full Gravity Base and newly-implemented silver wire upgrade (as far as I know the only SMcAudio amp with this wire upgrade ever as it’s their latest upgrade and they used my amp as a test mule, which I was thrilled with) when I get it fully burned in and can get a good handle on what I’ve got here.

Yeah man your point is well taken, admittedly I'm on the high end of idiot savant in the DIY world and it likely doesn't make sense for the average consumer to pay someone to perform this kind of fix.... and the McCormack wasn't produced in high enough numbers to create any kind of economic model for anyone to take on this kind of project.... That being said, I'm all about sustainability and keeping great amps alive! and its really silly though. PCB's are so cheap if you have the layout.”

@pwayland You and I are so totally on the same page!  If I coulda swapped out an input board for a few hundred bucks, man, I’d a been all over that.  But that I maybe got lightly forced into spending a bit more for what is likely gonna be a reference-level amp I’ll likely live happily with for the rest of my life (and who knows what future upgrades will come my way) — well, I guess I just gotta live with that.  Heh heh.  But I’m also about sustainability, so if I did my little part by recycling my case and transformer and that they’ll both live on for decades more rather than landing in a landfill — yeah, I kinda feel good about that.  Peace my friend!

@pwayland To me you sound like a lot more than “just a diy guy,” at least relative to my ignorant ass. Like I said, I’ll get some answers, but if I’m Steve McCormack and even if I could do it, do I wanna spend my time reviving input boards on 25-30 year-old amps that probably need a cap replacement anyway? If you’re gonna replace the input board and caps, at that point you’re really not far off from getting an amp that performs literally more on a reference level at its price point. If you’re gonna go thru the labor to replace both an input board and caps that I assume would cost $1500+ on its own, why not just spend your time creating truly special amps at not much more $$$?  That said, with many more 1990s DNA amps likely to fail from now on maybe you could set up a cottage industry just replacing those input boards. Do you think that’d be a worthwhile business? Could be I guess.  To me, I got 25 years outta my amp and time to move upward and onward one way or the other. But kuddos if you think replacing input boards on 30yo amps is a viable business model. Just my thoughts from a business perspective, but I’m all happy happy doing just doing the full-Monty upgrade. But that’s me.

@winoguy17 Not at all man. Believe me I had the exact same questions you did when my amp failed.

To the others with excellent and, IMO, rightfully skeptical questions, my cursory understanding is that after about 25 years or so the traces on the board break, fail, whatever, but when you repair the failed areas the traces just start to fail in other areas so it becomes a house of cards. I think the input board was a custom-designed part that is no longer manufactured and I’m guessing, as McCormack is no longer producing amps in large quantities, paying to develop a replacement just isn’t economically feasible or maybe they just don’t wanna spend the time/effort to do it to revive really old amps — I honestly dunno. Please don’t shoot the messenger here, but SMcAudio have been straight shooters with me and I’ll commit to either getting more info or maybe having Steve or Pat respond directly to this thread.

Just FYI and FWIW, here’s my rationale on the thing and why I decided to spend $2500 on rebuilding my amp versus selling my DNA 0.5 RevA for parts and putting the $$$ toward a new amp. First and foremost, I love the way my amp sounds both for my tastes and within the context of my system, and I think we all know how valuable finding that synergy thing is. Second, while it’s certainly possible I could find another $2500 amp that would make me as or more happy is a bit of a crapshoot that I wasn’t sure I wanted to partake in. Third, as SMcAudio reused both my case and transformer, arguably two of the most cost-intensive parts of any amp, I kinda felt like that gave me a leg up over buying a whole new amp. Fourth, Steve has had decades to find parts, wire, gravity base, etc. that meaningfully improve his already-legendary design to another performance level entirely. As a brief aside, the reason he’s been able to do this is because they do mega high-end consulting work for other companies that build cost-no-object products (like Berning) and the fruits of his consulting work funded at that level trickle down into his SMcAudio mods that would’ve never otherwise been possible — win win. Last, given all these points above, I’ve no idea what my fully-modded amp with premium parts would cost if I could even find it new, but I’m pretty sure it’d cost at least twice what I paid for the upgrade and probably closer to 3x when all is said and done. So, doing all this “audiophile math” in my head and being fairly sure I would not only get the similar sonic qualities of my prior amp but all of it at an entirely higher altogether level, I went for the upgrade.

Did I have doubts? Hell yeah!!! Believe me there are the new GaN amps from the likes of AGD, Atma-Sphere, etc. that have me HUGELY intrigued, but those amps are considerably more expensive than the $2500 I paid for my rebuilt DNA 0.5, and the ones from the likes of Peachtree, Underwood, etc., well, there we have more of the crapshoot fear creeping in. There are some Class-A amps that I might’ve been able to snag used (Clayton, Pass, etc.), but I tend to like to leave my amp on to avoid the stress of turn-on/turn-off not to mention the inevitable warm-up time it then takes to get the amp up to optimal operating temp. And then there’s the issue of the electric bill/heat of leaving a Class-A amp on 24/7 — just can’t do it. Incidentally, and somewhat interestingly, Steve and Pat feel so strongly about just leaving their amps on 24/7 to prolong its operating life they disconnect the power switch from the circuit so if the amp’s plugged in, it’s on. The only thing the power switch does is turn on the dummy light on the front to let the wife/significant other know the thing is on. I found that to be good audiophile humor. But, seriously, Pat said I probably prolonged the life of my amp by years by just leaving it on (unless I was leaving for a week vacation or something). BTW, @kr4 if memory serves you did a review of a DNA-1 many moons ago and was quite impressed with it, so maybe you of all people could understand if you could bring that amp to an entirely higher, and maybe even reference level, for $2500 why I might’ve chosen this route. Or maybe not.

Ok, sorry. I did not mean for this to be so long-winded/boring, but bottom line is I commit I’ll get your enquiring minds a more specific answer as to the input board issue one way or another. Past that, have a Happy New Year!!!

So you’re saying it can be upgraded, but it can’t be repaired ? Not sure I follow.....

@winoguy17 Yeah, I know it seems strange on its surface. Apparently there is no replacement input board available and the old board is not repairable. So what they do is reuse the case (and maybe the transformer) and rip everything else out and rebuild the amp with all new, and much better, parts so it’s basically a new amp.
Incidentally, the impetus for this post was that there are a couple guys selling these amps on eBay, one of which is selling a DNA-1 Deluxe for — get this — $100 more than the amp cost new in 1995! Seriously??? I contacted the seller about his pricing and if he was aware he’s selling an amp that is going to fail in the near future and he basically replied — “So what?” That pissed me off so thought I’d post this info in the hope that at least people here who read this will not get victimized. I mean, can you imagine being the poor guy who maybe buys this amp for around $2600 (or even a lot less) and the thing fails in a year or so? I can’t, so I had to just do something to try to help. Anyway, Happy New Year to my fellow audiophiles here!