":Audiophile is owner of a Âgood taste and ÂknowledgeÂ.
Well said! You hit the nail on the head! Those are the two main ingredients. Also, maybe just a bit of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, at least on occasion :^)
Lots of hobbies thrive on good taste and knowledge. Technology has always fascinated me. Reproduction of music with the quality possible today is a technology enabled miracle as I see it. It has always fascinated me as a curious mix of science and technology with art. Figuring out how it all works and where the boundaries may lie in of itself is a fascinating thing. Then there is all good music and its effects. It has its quircks like most things, but I would love to see more young people get into this stuff. Gotta keep it real though. That can be a challenge sometimes. |
A friend of mine records and mixes live jazz in the USA an Europe. He told me that he's oftentimes afraid to plug in his equipment because the clubs are in such poor repair. I said "junk in... junk out". Long story short, he purchased a BPC conditioner and was happier than a pig in mud with the results. |
Great thread - my take is even if the recording is poor you still have to go through another stage to hear it and that is the home audio system....why not have it spec'ed the best you can?
I listen to mostly rock anyway so I am doomed! LOL! But I will say the best sounding rock albums (Vinyl that is, hate it when people call CD's albums...Yuk!) in my collection are from the 60's and particularly the 70's. |
Oh...and the musicians were better! IMHO |
You're right, they were.
Ricardo, Of course you are correct. But even a cheap violin can drive you to tears when played by a master. A violin is after all, a violin. The basic electronic amplifier circuit is unchanged since it's inception. For all intents and purposes, it is what it is. Same goes for the rest of the gear. The weaker the link, the greater the strides that have been made. But in the end, the actual measureable differences/improvements are relatively small. |
Yes, and Newton was better than Einstein and Jobs as well. :) |
obviously, the recording process introduces distortion, and a reduction in the accuracy of timbre. you are at the mercy of the recording process when you purchase a cd or lp.
the recording and speaker are the two variables that still need the most qualitative improvement. |
Trentpancakes - in answer to your original quation - Doesn't bother me at all.
When I want to "listen" to quality music I put on a TACET recording - the engineers there are as OC as audiophiles - e.g. Das Mikrofon II, side two, has samples from 24 different microphones. OC or what? :-)
Don't listen to that side at all, but the rest of their recordings are amazing.
Alternately there's the JETON label that also goes farther than most at capturing the best possible audio signal with the best technology available.
Deutche Gramafon also goes the extra mile.
As for the rest - well as one other poster said - we are on the reproduction end and our goal is to get as close to the original master recording as we can, regardless of the effort put into (or not) getting it there in the first place
Can't fault us for that can you? :-) |
No it doesn't bother me. That's why we have Sheffield Labs/Reference Recordings/Chesky or even more mainstream labels like Chandos/Concord Jazz or even Telarc that consistently offer above average sound quality. I view most recording engineers as a person just doing a job with very little(if any) passion(think of Homer Simpson sleeping on the job) regarding sound quality. |
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"If we're not using any of this stuff to record the albums, then what are you hearing when you do use it?"
We're correcting your poor recording from sounding worse in our homes.
Seriously though, why should you bother? 99.9% of music listeners listen on their car stereo. I'm sure the decision to use old crap is out of your hands. It's just too bad so few studios try to do better. It's kind of like having a choice between McDonalds and nothing. There is no Eleven Madison Park or even Ruth's Chris.
You guys could be helping out the entire industry. Musicians would sell more music. Hi fi manufacturers would sell more gear. Auto manufacturers would have more stereo options available and I'd be happier. Instead, we have little or no choice but to buy from the industry that doesn't care about their craft. |
Its a business and business needs competition, apparently there is no competition to make sonically superior music so there is no reason to spend any money doing it. |
"there is no competition to make sonically superior music so there is no reason to spend any money doing it."
That is an excellent point!
Fact is most get much better sound quality overall these days via even portable devices and headphones than ever in the past. Plus mobility and mobile applications including entertainment is where it is at these days. Nothing there really to push high end home audio anywhere much beyond where it already is as a niche. Plus most people can't afford a lot of high end audio stuff. So we should be happy that sound quality of modern recordings is as good as it is, which overall I would say may also still be the best as a whole overall than ever as well. |
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One thing I notice is that a lot of world music CDs I hear produced outside the US has surprisingly good sound quality. I've heard some recent reggae compilations that I would have to assume were produced in Jaimaica that will knock your socks off. A lot of Putumayo CD tracks are very well recorded. So maybe there is some hope for better sound in a "global economy". |
I view most recording engineers as a person just doing a job with very little(if any) passion(think of Homer Simpson sleeping on the job) regarding sound quality. That couldn't be further from the truth. Read any recording engineer's trade mag... recording engineers are obsessed with sound quality, and getting raw emotion to turn into electricity on magnetic storage. Check out 'Sound on Sound' or 'Tape Op' to hear the language of the recording studio. You'll find there's almost zero overlap in terminology or focus. An engineer who claimed a digital cable "improved pace" would be laughed out of the control room before never being called for work again. Even the top manufacturers of recording equipment are quite resolute in saying that all digital interconnects are the same as long as they complete the circuit. Can you imagine an audiophile company saying the same? The difference is, we put the obsession into tangible improvements. Yes, I absolutely could get a 1% increase in fidelity if I changed out the resistors in all of my equipment for Vishay Dale, and if avoided the DB25 interconnects and kept short signal paths. I could absolutely do it. But why spend my time on that if I can get a 50% increase in performance quality by getting the singer riled up and reminding him why he wrote the song, or picking up a coffee for the drummer who's feeling left out again? That kind of thing pays dividends. The obsessive-compulsive stuff pays off very little in the end and, in my opinion, doesn't make an album more listenable. What makes an album transcendent is emotion, power, fragility... For very little money and effort, we can get to 99% perfect fidelity. It's the final 1% that costs millions and adds very little. I never listened to Abbey Road and thought, "Man, if only they'd recorded this through 24-bit 192Khz A/D converters along unidirectional silver mic cables. Then they'd be on to something." No, all that distortion, 50hz hum, tape hiss, and background noise adds up to something beautiful. |
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What makes an album transcendent is emotion, power, fragility... For very little money and effort, True enough but if it is a crappy recording quality does the emotion, power, fragility come through? |
"True enough but if it is a crappy recording quality does the emotion, power, fragility come through?"
In general, for me as long as I do not hear any unpleasant noise or distortions that should not be there in the first place, it works for me.
As an analogy, abstract art ie Monet is a highly distorted reproduction. It's the distortions itself that make for the unique artistic experience.
On the other hand, for example, any noise or distortion in my TV picture tends to negatively affect my enjoyment. |
Trent,
First off, your postings are spot-on. And your descriptions and wording and perceptions are also spot on. If I were recording again, I'd want you to be my engineer AND producer.
I remember a recording session long ago when I was both performer and songwriter. We rehearsed the song once, then after about 2 more run-throughs we took a break. The other musicians started goofing off, and I sensed the magic waning. I remember saying, "come on guys, knock it off; we're peaking. Let's keep the magic." We started recording and did like 5 takes to tape. We had lost the "magic", it became "work" and sounded flat. Our rehearsals were all buy-takes and they never made it to tape! A good producer would have sensed this and hit the record button from the start. No amount of golden cable or wire holders or vibe rocks could make us sound good. 95% musicianship, 5% technology. Never more evident that day.
Regarding your original question; No, it doesn't bother me one bit. Case in point; play the LP "12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus" (sp?) by the band Spirit (recorded late 60's, I think.) All analogue, probably recorded in similar fashion that you described, to a big fat 2" master tape. That album SMOKES! Great musicianship, great songwriting and a great sounding mix. You had mentioned in an earlier post that, in the 60's, there was markedly more THD and noise and a lot of other bad things that affect the signal. This LP is an example of your theory that talent trumps bad technology.
Thanks for such a great post. |
Yes, emotions comes through loud and clear on even crappy recordings. Listen to anything by Robert Johnson, Louis Armstrong from the 20s, or most any mid thru late period Rolling Stones. |
Some of the prior stuff the Beatles did was superior to Abbey Road so I don't get the 'something beautiful' analogy. It's the only Beatles recording that makes me yearn for fidelity every time I play it. No doubt because it's their peak production. Even so, information I used to think was simply not there actually is. It's all there, hiding behind the noise. The right gear will reveal it.
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Doesn't bother me at all. Some recordings are just bad. Because of the equipment used by some recording studios and equipment used by the artist themselves. Some (most) are not audiophiles and are not interested at all in the detailed sound quality. They just want to get their music out there for the masses. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. For the ones more interested in not only quality music, but quality music recording and music reproduction, they take more time and money to invest in the proper techniques, equipment and personnel. You get what you pay for. Most (not all, so don't jump on me) younger people don't care at all about audiophile quality recordings. Their mp3s are just fine to them. And since many of their recordings are terrible anyway, they are just rocking to the distorted music and are happy anyway. For me, even some of my older cds really sound terrible on better equipment. The music is great, but the recordings really are bad. Oh well. But there are some out there that really do know what they are doing recording and recording equipment wise, and they take pride in the quality of their work. but it is a business first and foremost and making money is the primary concern for many. Not all though.
enjoy |
Judsauce, you GET IT. Thanks, man. |
To answer the original question,we are hearing a more highly resolving version of the "moment you captured in time."And no it doesn't bother me if the recording is of poor quality if you were able to capture the emotion and magic of that moment.I especially like hearing mistakes(dropped drumsticks,etc.)Makes things feel real. |
Does anyone remember the thread from a few years back by a guy, I think his name was Carlos? He was a recording engineer with a temper and of coarse owned all the best gear. I remember photos of a big disheveled room fool of equipment. He got toasted. I remember he threatened to quit posting and several members thanked him.
Very different thread but fun memory. Keep your eye on the prize cakes. I'd love to listen to the stuff you put together. Any recommendations? |
Great thread, its refreshing to hear from someone with a non-audiophile music-industry background. Let's face it: although we appreciate great music, we also like our toys.
You could draw an analogy with watch-collectors. Aren't those mechanical movements cool? |
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