It appears AudioKarma must have sent over some senior members.
Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
I have heard some say that speaker cables do need a 'burn in', and some say that its totally BS.
What say you?
What say you?
1,164 responses Add your response
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@geoffkait >>>>Didnât you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You donât need to be concerned with any signal travel in the âopposite direction,â only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow? This is the pseudoscience I'm calling you on, an AC circuit (what connects a amp to a speaker) does NOT behave as you are implying! DC circuits DO behave as you describe. Please stop trying to push your Star Trek science on these forums! |
@geoffkait @hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? >>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. I thought you were pushing "contact enhancers" to fix this? Or maybe it was Machina Dynamica's Brilliant Pebbles? I can't remember. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you canât really expect them to sound too good. If the new cables where NOT broken in then we all should have been able to hear a huge difference between the new cables and the 1000 hour cables according to you. NONE of us heard ANY differences, no matter which direction we ran the cables! 3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction. 4. As has been pointed out many times cables donât get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient. 5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there.  I'm using 10g wires with excellent resistance/capacitance/inductance specks. Please document what constitutes sufficient quality other than those metrics. 6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? Well, you show me yours and I will show you mine! 7. There are errors in the system. What type of errors in a AC circuit 8. The test subjectsâ hearing is not all itâs cracked up to be. Two of use are engineers and one is a professional musician who has also mastered many CDs. 9. Differences were masked by âoutside conditionsâ - weather, time of day, unknown causes. Yep, i checked. it was a high sun spot day! 10. Test subjects were drunk. you have got to be kidding???? |
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azbrd @geoffkait >>>>Didnât you get the memo? Maybe you were sleeping. You donât need to be concerned with any signal travel in the âopposite direction,â only any signal travel toward your speakers, I.e., the correct direction. Follow? This is the pseudoscience I'm calling you on, an AC circuit (what connects a amp to a speaker) does NOT behave as you are implying! DC circuits DO behave as you describe. Please stop trying to push your Star Trek science on these forums! >>>>There are only two possibilities. 1. You donât know what directionality means. 2. You donât know what AC means. Beam yourself up, Scotty! |
azbrd @geoffkait @hifiman51 A few years ago i replaced my existing cables with some slightly longer ones of the EXACT same brand and gauge. The existing cables had >1000 hours of use the new ones had none and I could NOT hear ANY difference between the 2 sets. I had a few friends over so I could swap the 2 sets for them, Back and forth we went and none of us could hear any difference between the sets. I guess my system is missing "dynamic swing?" so I was unable to hear what a "broken" in cable sounds like. Also, please define what "dynamic swing" is???? >>>>There are a whole bunch of reasons why cable comparisons oft fail. Many of these reasons explain why almost any test of any audio thing fails. 1. Unplugging a cable destroys the delicate electrical/mechanical connection that took a long time to establish. So, going back and forth between cables proves nothing. I thought you were pushing "contact enhancers" to fix this? Or maybe it was Machina Dynamicaâs Brilliant Pebbles? I canât remember. >>>>>>>Try to keep up with the conversation. I do not push my products but Iâm always happy to see someone else mention them. 2. The new cables were not properly broken in so you canât really expect them to sound too good. If the new cables where NOT broken in then we all should have been able to hear a huge difference between the new cables and the 1000 hour cables according to you. NONE of us heard ANY differences, no matter which direction we ran the cables! >>>>Youâre not following what Iâm saying. Itâs not black and white. 3. One or both cables were not connected in the correct direction. 4. As has been pointed out many times cables donât get fully broken in without resorting to a burn in track on a test CD or a burn in device. Playing music through cables, even for years, is not sufficient. 5. Both cables in the test are not sufficient quality to reveal differences that might be there. Iâm using 10g wires with excellent resistance/capacitance/inductance specks. Please document what constitutes sufficient quality other than those metrics. >>>>>Iâm not saying all of those reasons apply to your test. But the more you talk the more Iâm inclined to think most of then probably do apply. 6. The system used for the test is not of sufficient quality to reveal differences. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? >>>>>Maybe I am. It is one of the reasons why a test can go awry. You might be taking this just a tad too personally. Well, you show me yours if I show you mine. >>>>Itâs not about me, itâs about you. 7. There are errors in the system. What type of errors in a AC circuit >>>>Errors can be anywhere in the system. 8. The test subjectsâ hearing is not all itâs cracked up to be. Two of use (sic) are engineers and one is a professional musician who has also mastered many CDs. >>>>>That is an Appeal to Authority. One of the worst sounding systems I ever heard belonged to a musician. The second worst sounding system I ever heard belonged to an engineer. I am actually nit a big fan of mastering engineers, you know, due to all the dynamic range compression. If it were not a false argument then any engineer or musician in town could automatically win any argument by declaring, Iâm an engineer or musician so therefore I am correct. Better luck next time. 9. Differences were masked by âoutside conditionsâ - weather, time of day, unknown causes. Yep, i checked. it was a high sun spot day! >>>>>Funny. I figured you probably wouldnât know what I was referring to. Especially unknown causes. 10. Test subjects were drunk. you have got to be kidding???? >>>>I donât know. Am I? |
Somebody claimed that âall wire is directionalâ. That is nonsense, but I can see where people who donât know better would get that idea: they heard it from someone who heard from someone else, who saw how itâs done with balanced cables in pro audio, where convention is to ground the shield at the side which connects to the signal source and to âliftâ the shield ground at the other end to prevent a ground loop from occurring. This effectively makes the cable assembly directional. The people who think that because itâs done like that in one application donât understand the rationale, and just make things up to try to impress others. Itâs like the reason why some people floor the gas pedal on their car just before they shut off the engine. They think they need to do that because they saw someone once who did the same thing, not knowing that they were really doing it to kick the fast-idle off so the engine wouldnât ping and knock after the iginition was turned off. And so so we have this phenomenon of people blindly doing things due to information that they interpret incorrectly. Some psychologists refer to it as âbroken telephone syndromeâ. Neat eh? |
sleepwalker: you may have missed my point. I was referring to directionality. The reciprocation of engine pistons was my analog not for break-in but for electrons; there is no net current flow of electrons in a wire propogating a musical, or alternating current, signal. For this reason, there can be no wire directionality because the electron field alternates as electromotive power, as push, pull, otherwise, weâd hear nothing. Thereâs as much force in one direction as the other, hence no net flow. |
stevecham, The trouble with that theory is that electrons are not the signal. Electrons are simply the charge carriers. The signal itself is a horse of a different color and travels at near lightspeed in metal conductors. Which of course means the signal must be comprised of photons. So, itâs actually photons that navigate the wire better in one direction than the other. |
@geoffkait Please explain to us minions how a particle of light, a photon, can be transferred over copper (or silver for that matter)??  >>>>>>>Try to keep up with the conversation. I do not push my products but Iâm always happy to see someone else mention them. I'm NOT promoting your questionable products, I mention them because they are ridiculous, how can anyone on this site take someone who promotes quacky science like that this take ANY of your suggestions seriously?? >>>>The signal itself is a horse of a different color and travels at near lightspeed in metal conductors. Which of course means the signal must be comprised of photons. So, itâs actually photons that navigate the wire better in one direction than the other. Please provide us with the documentation/science for directional wire and where to find it besides audioquest? Oh, and where can someone purchase "directional wire"?  Do any high end electronic or speaker companies use directional wire in their products? Is directional wire used in our homes or the electrical grid? Oh, and don't forget the documentation on photons traveling over a wire! If what you are suggesting is true I'm sure it would be used everywhere to gain an extra edge. So now you are calling me out on the quality of my system??? >>>>>Maybe I am. It is one of the reasons why a test can go awry. You might be taking this just a tad too personally. Not taking it personal at all, I have been in this hobby for over 40 years, I know so i'm pretty sure i know what i'm doing. I just don't like people promoting quacky, pseudoscience on these forums. There are younger, less knowledgeable people reading these forums that we need to keep our hobby going and your suggestions don't help.  As @sleepwalker65 wrote: We have this phenomenon of people blindly doing things due to information that they interpret incorrectly. In case you don't know the definition of pseudoscience its taking a grounded and provable scientific principle and manipulating it into a nonsensical form that is NOT verifiable. Your insistence of wire directionality and photons over wire falls right into this category. |
OMG! I don't think there is a Nobel Prize for pseudoscience and the fact that you would claim to have won a Nobel prize is as crazy as the products you are pedaling. You do realize that any of us minions can simply query the list of winners?? And once again you have diverted the conversation to avoid PROVING what you claim. Please, please provide us with actual information to back up your claims! Many of us ARE engineers and would love to read/see the facts behind wire directionality. |
It would seem that even in a high-end forum site such as this, discussions devolve into childish attacks. Lots of psychological tricks being played here. Iâll summarize: 1. If you canât hear the difference, then your system must be crap. You clearly havenât spent enough money and may as well be sporting Bose all over the house. 2. Science is fungible. When it comes to the laws of physics and electronics, we like to consider those to be "guidelines". 3. If you canât hear the difference, it must be your poor hearing - clearly you are not a golden ear, nor do you possess the auditory faculties to understand the remarkable differences. I find #3 to be particularly amusing, since Iâd guess that most of the people here with disposable incomes large enough to spend five figures on wires will be at least in their 40âs, and most are probably older. Those in their 40âs have already lost about 3.5% of their hearing. Those in their 50âs have lost over 11% of their hearing (on average). (link provided below). I would guess that most of us who enjoy our audio systems probably tend to listen at higher levels than the average Joe with his big-box-store HT system connected to his TV. If anything, we would tend to be on the higher end of the hearing loss curve as a result. I probably lost at least 3% at an Aerosmith concert in 1978. But Iâm not trying to convince anyone here not to spend the money if itâs just burning a hole in your pocket. HiFi salesmen gotta eat, too, and your state could use the sales tax. However, I would strongly recommend people taking Leoâs advice (above) and start with the room analysis and treatments. Put in as much acoustic damping material and as many bass traps as your spouse will let you get away with. I donât think thereâs one soul on this or any respectable audio forum who would argue with the enormous and easily measurable differences room acoustics make. Then and only then would I expect to see a clown car. https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/statistics/hearing-loss-increases-with-age |
It would seem that even in a high-end forum site such as this, discussions from others from other sites with an agenda devolve into childish attacks. Lots of psychological tricks being played here....... It goes both ways. Do any of you from that other site honestly believe you're the first to raise your points? Do you think that your appeals to authority, name dropping and your credentials intimidate in any way, shape or form? Please cite the "law of science" that states there is no break in without conflating it with a law that predicts a measurement. And don't forget to omit the other subsets of said laws that say otherwise when it does pertain to sound; that are still debated to this very day by real scientists and engineers who take the time to deliberate. All the best, Nonoise |
@rldwv I do apologize for the recent "personal" attacks as you put it. I just got fed up with all the pseudoscience some members publish and it seens its on every discussion thread. This hurts our hobby and confuses those of us who are not engineers. I agree 100% on Leo's advice as well. I also agree with you on hearing loss and how it increases with age. Fortunately, I can still hear the difference between any Bose speaker and Magnepan 20.7s(hint). |
Nonoise: "Do you think that your appeals to authority, name dropping and your credentials intimidate in any way, shape or form? " Your name is ironic, since youâre adding things I never said (called "noise"). Oh, I did mention "Aerosmith", so I guess I did name-drop. I posted no credentials, so Iâm sorry if you felt intimidated. Let me fix that. I spent ten weeks learning at the USN Anti Submarine Warfare training center in San Diego. You might imagine that acoustics were a topic of discussion there. I was also employed as a senior engineer with Boeing Defense System (you may have heard of them) for seven years working on projects I cannot discuss, but their alignment is relevant to this discussion. I have a BS in math and an MS in Computer Science. Enough said, and Iâm sure there are those here with much more impressive CVâs than mine. All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I donât know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the addage "In God We Trust, all others bring data". You know what causes changes in how you hear your system? Everything (but probably not the layer of copper molecules adjacent the molecules in your dielectric). Is it getting warmer outside? Is it getting warmer inside? Any change in Barometric Pressure? Did you invite a friend over to listen? Are you standing in a different spot? Did your friend just recline in his chair? Both of you are reflecting some sound energy frequencies and absorbing others. You have changed the room dynamics measurably. Been in the room for several minutes? Youâve probably raised the temperature and the humidity in there, not to mention altered the air volume of the room. Are you worried about the testing? Worried about whether our not your "friend" is going to like your system? Even small amounts of stress and blood pressure change how our ears perform. How loud was it before you walked into your listening room? All of these factors are infinitely more measurable than the alignment of molecules in your cable. But what it really boils down to is this: are you happier? If "yes", then who gives a crap why? Our minds play tricks on us all the time, and thatâs not necessarily a bad thing. If your kid isnât going to college because you spent the money on cables, thatâs a different issue, but not one I think likely here. Let me offer some unsolicited advice. Listen to your music and not your system. If youâre fretting over how much better that violin or sax could sound if those unruly little molecules would stay in line, then you are missing the entire point, and cheating yourself out of the enjoyment youâve paid a lot of money for. As an early HTPC pioneer, I lived that mistake (IRT video quality) for far too long. azbrd: I would certainly hope so. Just remember that the retirement home isnât going to allow your Maggies in, so you may need to adapt some day :-) (I know, I know, better dead than Bose...) |
I called Morrow today to see where the cables I ordered were after having to hold the order until I returned from a vacation (on their way it seems), and asked them what I should do if I like the pre burned in sound...in jest of course...they did say I was the first to ask that...they told me to listen only a few minutes a day and un-plug them after."they told me to listen only a few minutes a day and un-plug them after." Wow! I just can't even imagine passing this off to a customer as advice. If they're unplugged after every use, won't all the snake oil leak out? |
rdwv: maybe in your time you ran into Bill Kenney who wrote this:http://www.tempoelectric.com/Wire_and_Cable_Facts.pdf One can reasonably extract from his findings that what connectors and RCA jacks can do a signal can do the exact same thing to wires once differences are introduced (different metallurgy, alloys, coatings, dielectrics, etc.) I find it funny that those who adhere to strict measurements always discount the smaller differences in measurements or who cite even smaller, extraneous phenomena as the reason. It's a great fallback position. I've always trusted my ears, even when I hear a difference. I've never had the occasion to doubt my senses until coming upon sites like this, only to realize that fundamentalists exist in all manner of discipline, and to treat them with caution, like I do with all the other disciplines. All the best, Nonoise |
@rldwv  WOW! You already have me moving to a retirement home! :) As a FYI, I plan on taking my Dynaudio Contour 20's to the retirement home, I just hope they don't mind the JL subwoofer. :) I could not agree more with your comment: All us doubters are saying is "prove it". I donât know how else you can prove it without a measurement. Most engineers embrace the adage "In God We Trust, all others bring data". |
azbrd @geoffkait Please explain to us minions how a particle of light, a photon, can be transferred over copper (or silver for that matter)?? >>>>I guess you would have to know that everything thatâs in the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, which is actually an extremely small portion, is comprised of photons. Itâs pretty obvious visible light cannot travel through most solid materials except transparent ones like water, polycarbonate, glass and clear plastic. The electrical signal and the audio signal, are also in the electromagnetic spectrum, but can travel through copper or silver. I bet you thought the signal was electrons, right? |
Wow...I canât imagine anybody could possibly think my post about talking to Morrow about preferring the sound of non broken-in cables was anything beyond describing a funny conversation where the Morrow dude displayed a sense of humor. How tightly are we wound around here? (rhetorical question, please treat as such). Maybe Iâm the one missing the humor in the response, so forget I mentioned it. Thanks. Also, I bristle at the subject of age being a factor in hearing comprehension, although this could simply be some sort of itch. I canât surf like I did at 16, but my wave knowledge is still there (proven last week on a surfing vacation). In any case, Iâve noted elsewhere that some amazing audio professionals, some of whom Iâve known, like Bob Clearmountain, Bob Ludwig, Elliot Schiener, et al, are all respected geezers still doing GREAT work using their elderly earballs. I mix live concerts for geniuses who, amazingly, like my work, and at this point Iâm the oldest Iâve ever been. This could simply be due to luck, but I donât care...too old...and I donât listen to my rig at a particularly loud level, I donât think...maybe I do...wait...what were we talking about? Regarding cables, after running into (almost literally) Bill Low at a local Audio Salon, he pointed out the bi wire advantages of his Rocket cables so I bought a pair...they're clearly directional as one end says "speaker" and has four plugs...what more proof do you need? |
Interesting read. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, other than to point out that you need to make sure your connections are as tight as you can get them and don't use aluminum (which starts oxidizing very quickly). Talking about phase shift without specifying the frequencies used is useless, and in this case, apocryphal. But I will guarantee you that the phenomena I mentioned are FAR more measurable than what your are talking about. That being said, trust your ears and enjoy your cables. |
Wolf and azbrd, don't take it as a slight - none of us are getting any younger, but we still know what we want to hear (and I'll still help you smuggle in your subwoofer). All I was trying to say there is that we're talking about (in some cases) double digit hearing loss over time. I've been to many, many concerts, and replayed many more a thousand times in my HT at high volume. The fact that I can hear at all makes me think I should donate my ears to science. The "perceived" difference between directional-burned-in cables and those virgin, haphazardly laid and environmentally coddled cables cannot be in the 1% range, or they'd stand out in measurement like a sore thumb. Any less, and that's a lot to expect of the Mark 1 Mod 0 eardrum.  |
it's copper, physics of copper doesn't change with the small current that runs through cables. It's your ears, your brain, that gets tailored to the sound...Pure BS! And a 3-foot piece of copper or silver isn't going to provide better current to your equipment either...That is just ridiculous to think one foot of anything at the end of a 100 foot run of romax is going to improve your electic supply somehow...but spend away.. |
bac2vinyl it's copper, physics of copper doesn't change with the small current that runs through cables. It's your ears, your brain, that gets tailored to the sound...Pure BS! And a 3-foot piece of copper or silver isn't going to provide better current to your equipment either...That is just ridiculous to think one foot of anything at the end of a 100 foot run of romax is going to improve your electic supply somehow...but spend away.. >>>>If you get that upset over a 3-foot copper cable one wonders what would happen if someone pointed out the tiny 1/2â fuse where the current comes into the amp affects the sound quality. One imagines your head would explode. |
GK: nice try :-) But man do you get âem going! Next we should talk about whether the composition of baryons in wire metals, such as protons (two up and one down quark) vs. neutrons (two down and one up quark) are what's really 1) being burned in and 2) account for directionality. Because it ain't fermions such as photons, my friend. |
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There are too many people with no electrical engineering background saying things that just makes your head spin. It's complicated so don't simply things.  Do this simple experiment. If you don't understand the reason behind this experiment then maybe you should listen more than post. The low pass component in your speakers cross over is usually an inductor. For example a typical inductor for a two way is about 1.2mH which has many meter of cable in length ... may be even 10 meters long or more. This inductor is in series with your speaker woofer. Of course the amp is connected to your speakers through a cable and this cable is then connected to the inductor of the speakers. So the current travels from the amp to the speaker cable to the inductor and eventually to the speaker woofer. Now if you use a 10 meter long speaker cables from your amp to drive your speaker you probably won't like the sound very much. So why would 8ft of speaker cable make any different because the inductor already chews up 10 meter long or more? How electrical current travel is complicated. The length itself is just one variable. It's not the only thing. This is why power cable makes a difference. A lot of people use water as an analogy and come up with all sort of wrong conclusion. The difference between water and electric current is that before you turn on the faucet in your house, your house has no water. On the other hands, electrons are everywhere even before you turn on the switch. The electrons are already in your equipment. This is just a simple example. It's a lot more complicated than this. |
stevecham GK: nice try :-) But man do you get âem going! Next we should talk about whether the composition of baryons in wire metals, such as protons (two up and one down quark) vs. neutrons (two down and one up quark) are what's really 1) being burned in and 2) account for directionality. Because it ain't fermions such as photons, my friend. >>>>>Name dropper. |