In answer to your query Zaikeman Douglas_schroeder wrote: However, I would submit that this is not the best test of power cords, and that there are many more options available. i.e. A PC with 9 or 10 tot. Ga., or one with silver OFC conductors, etc. You would perhaps find it interesting to try a Wireworld lower end PC with silver coated prongs on the plug. |
Rwwear: And your point is? |
Liguy, well, count me as one of the most interested in your findings! :) I always distinguish between noticeable differences and efficacious differences. It's one thing for an effect to be noticeable, but another to be efficacious, that is "worth it" in terms of meritorious for an upgrade. So, when you do your comparisons, for the argument underway I'm interested in noticeable differences, not whether you feel it's "worth it", which adds another layer of subjectivity.
I'm beginning to think I've hit upon the culprit in the great "Power Supply Mystery," as you seem to have heard various power cords make a difference in other systems. It's not a hearing acuity issue. Also, you have not heard a difference in your rig, but that would stand to reason if the power cords (perhaps only the stock cord and your Home Depot cord were used?) employed by you were largely the same.
Yes, I will be quite interested to hear about this. I love discussions like this, where there is mental "jousting" but without rancor and with an open mind, as you demonstrate.
Zaikesman, your thought allows me to address what might be considered name dropping. It was not my intent; I was referencing the cables I used in comparison. I could have done the same with Magnan Cables, Jenna Labs, Clarity Cables, or any number of cables I've used/reviewed (WARNING! Major Name Dropping! ;0 ) I have never done a formal review of Audioquest cables, but I have mentioned them several times in trials/comparisons I've held with them over the years because they happened to be used in significant trials/breakthroughs in my learning process.
I've conducted dozens upon dozens of listening comparisons, and when one example seems suitable for my argument I select it. I believe I could reference illustrations regarding different aspects of cable use from any of the brands I've used; i.e. conductor material, geometry, total gauge, dielectric, terminations, etc. I'm not trying to make any definitive statement about the merits of brands in this thread, merely illustrating my logic. Frankly, I'm trying not to push my preference in that regard. I don't know that it's possible to avoid the appearance of name dropping when using real examples, but the fact that I'm not making statements about the performance in relation to other cables should help in that regard. I've written enough about them that people should get the feel for my assessment of cables I've used. |
Douglas_schroeder stated:
Another thought strikes me; is it possible, Liguy, that you have been comparing/using power cords which are somewhat similar in characteristics? i.e. Aftermarket 14 total gauge with stranded conductors, vs. your 12 total Ga. with stranded conductors?
Doug,
That IS an interesting thought. I am an open minded guy. My next club meeting is near the end of the month so maybe I can borrow some different cords from some members and have a listen and report back. |
Doug: I can't help but notice you've name-dropped Wireworld cords a couple of times. One of the cords that I tried and got rid of the quickest was their Silver Electra III+ (or some such). Didn't dig it on anything, despite its maybe having been the most expensive cord to pass through here. OTOH, a local Agonner of my acquaintance once bought one of my preferred cords based on my liking it, but didn't feel the same and wound up selling it to me! So I think IMO & YMMV are clearly the watchwords here... |
From Wikipedia: The high-end audio cable industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are significantly advantageous to audio signal transmission. However, conductivity specifications for common C11000 Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical.[8] Much more expensive C10100, a highly refined copper with silver impurities removed and oxygen reduced to 0.0005%, has only a one percent increase in conductivity rating, insignificant in audio applications.[8] OFC is nevertheless valued by audiophiles for both audio and video signals in audio playback systems and home cinema. |
Another thought strikes me; is it possible, Liguy, that you have been comparing/using power cords which are somewhat similar in characteristics? i.e. Aftermarket 14 total gauge with stranded conductors, vs. your 12 total Ga. with stranded conductors?
The reason I ask is that if the power cords you have been comparing have similar characteristics, then it is very likely that you would have a difficult time hearing differences between them. I can see a situation in which you replaced a stock power cord with a Home Depot DIY and found little difference. However, I would submit that this is not the best test of power cords, and that there are many more options available. i.e. A PC with 9 or 10 tot. Ga., or one with silver OFC conductors, etc. You would perhaps find it interesting to try a Wireworld lower end PC with silver coated prongs on the plug.
Maybe you have compared a wide variety of PCs but if not, then this is perhaps a legitimate reason why you are not hearing differences! I have conducted comparisons between PCs which sounded very similar and they were in fact similar in construction/design. That may be part of the answer to our disagreement. :) |
there are many discussions on thie forum categorized by component type. people ask for advice.
however it has been shown in the psychology and sociology journals, that people vary in their suceptibility to be influenced by others.
riesmann coined the terms "inner directed" and "other directed".
i suspect that inner directed audiophiles will do what they want regardless of what others say, while other directed audiophiles arem more easily influenced by the comments they read and will buy based upon reccomendations.
some people ask a question for the sake of eliciting opinions and creating a discussion or debate, but have no intention of acting on any suggestions they read. what a waste of time to do that.
so, a question to ask is are you other directed or inner directed ? this question could be a theme and may be one soon. |
Liguy, with respect, the Home Depot cords are horrid. I happen to have made some for myself years ago when I was first experimenting with comparisons of power cords. I thought I was genius to get "top quality" sound on the cheap. But when I compared the Home Depot Home made to even approx. $100 power cords by the likes of Audioquest or Wireworld the H.D. cord sucked - that is sucked the life right out of the music. I couldn't stand to use them and got rid of them quickly. It was a waste of time and money, except for the fact that it reinforced the point that the cable manufacturers know what they're doing and the typical DIY guy does not.
Since I cannot prove otherwise, it may be that on your rig alone, given you have "hyper-power supplies" you designed, there may not be a difference in sound between power cords. OTOH, you suggest that some manufacturers of high end audio gear are getting it right. What if those amps also exhibited sonic differences with various power cords? Then where would you go in your argument?
I will say this, having worked with some of the finest audio equipment available, some with dedicated, optimized power supplies such as with the VAC Signature Preamplifier MkII (reviewed for Dagogo.com), not a one, not a single component I have ever come across has been impervious to power cord idiosyncrasies. I simply do not accept that when the dielectric, total gauge, conductor material etc. is changed on a cable the net result is nil sonically. I have used too many cables and too many components to concede that.
Liguy, you're a nice asset to this discussion and our little group here. I wish you could make a visit and we could test out some of our theories. I would find it fascinating to hear your rig and the power supplies you have made.
Dave (Corazon), the answer to your question is that manufacturers do not want to paint themselves into a corner with cables. If they don't believe in aftermarket power cords they're not going to promote them. If they do find them useful, they're not going to get in bed with one cord manufacturer or else they cut their fan base. Further, they may know that a particular cord renders a specific sound with their gear and it may not appeal to all listeners with all systems. Better to let the masses figure it out on their own. |
Just for grins last night, I substituted a couple of older aftermarket cords on my CD transport which I'd never compared on that particular component before (and hadn't compared period in quite some time, predating my system's current configuration). The results surprised me by actually conforming to Byron's and Al's 'extrinsic-dominant' point of view, in that the sonic differences I expected, based on past experiences using these two cords on various amps (where their sonic characteristics had largely transferred with the cords), didn't at all translate in this application, for either cord. In fact my impressions, as well as preference, were just about exactly inverted from my expectations. |
I have stated my opinion but what I find interesting is how two different audiophiles can have differing opinions on how a specific combination of component and power cord sound. |
I never asked Nelson about power cords although I believe he felt they would not make too much of a difference.
Nelson Pass on Power Supplies:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_2/nelpass.html |
Hi Corazon, I think audiophiles have already voted with their feet (and wallets) on this one -- we want the flexibility to play with different aftermarket cords on our own. It's like asking why most speakers don't come standard with 'matching' audiophile-approved speaker cables. Just give us an IEC inlet and a Belden cord we can stash in the closet, and don't charge us more for something we prefer to choose for ourselves. |
While hardly the most expensive model going, it still freaks me out a bit to think that I 'have' to spend even this much on power cords. and since my investment in the gear they power is many times that amount First let me say to Zaikesman I am only using your text as illustration for my question. I am not singling him out, he just said it so well. I am quite sure there are many people in the same boat. Question: For the amount of money many have spent on these components, doesn't it seem reasonable these components would come with the cord that allowed them to perform their best? May be the wrong place to ask this but the opportunity presented itself with Zaikesman's statement. I've been pondering this for quite some time. Looking forward to your responses. Best, Dave |
Mrtennis, is there a definitive conclusion to anything in music reproduction? I always think it is ironic that we only use our eyes rather than our ears in these groups. Certainly no one can demonstrate here the superiority of one brand of pcs, ics, ac filters, line stages, etc. |
why are so many concerned with the affect of a power cord on the sound of a stereo system ?
it can't be answered with knowledge. one can only say that there is some probability that power cords influence the sound of stereo systems. the value of the probability cannot be determined.
this whole topic is a philosophical discussion in that there is no definitive conclusion. |
Hi Liguy: It sounds like you've done due listening diligence in revealing systems, so if you've never heard a difference, no one can argue with that. Just count yourself lucky I guess, even if I don't quite see how power supplies for missle-guidance systems (of which I would wonder whether they need have their output modulated over as wide a frequency and dynamic spectrum as is present in music?) ought necessarily to correlate with listening impressions in high-end audio systems.
I heard an immediate difference the very first time I tried an aftermarket power cord with an amp around 12 years ago, and even though my gear is considerably better now than it was then, I continue to hear improvements, if not as drastic. (To me, power cords are more sonically consequential than interconnects, at least on a par with speaker cables. In fact, I recently ordered two more of my preferred power cord from my dealer, at a combined cost of about $1k. While hardly the most expensive model going, it still freaks me out a bit to think that I 'have' to spend even this much on power cords. But I'm just not as satisfied with the sound of my system if I don't, and since my investment in the gear they power is many times that amount, it seems justified if the ultimate goal is maximum enjoyment of recorded music.)
A couple things of note I find interesting:
It's easy to understand why an aftermarket cord might sound better than a stock cord, regardless of power supply considerations. What I've never had explained to me, and indeed suspect no one may be able to adequately explain or predict, is the fact that even among various aftermarket cords, all with better shielding and of heavier gauge than stock cords, there remain meaningful differences in sonic character. I don't think differences in resistance are significant enough to be the answer, but although I do feel that complex impedance must surely be a big part of it, I somehow doubt that is the entire story either.
Another thing is the fact that, even if we take the position that power supplies in components aren't as impervious as they perhaps could be, a thorough power conditioning regimen ought to help alleviate this factor. Yet even there, I have no trouble hearing meaningful differences when substituting power cords feeding the power conditioners themselves (in my system, of both the active waveform/voltage-correction and passive balanced/isolation-transformer types), as well as between the power conditioners and the components they feed.
But of course neither of those considerations can be cause for question if you don't hear differences among aftermarket power cords in the first place. So I also find it interesting that on this thread, the two posters who are career EEs both think and find this topic to be more spurious than legit. A small sample size, but it makes me wonder which group, audiophiles who aren't EEs or EEs who are also audiophiles, may bring the more prejudicial biases to their listening impressions.
PS - So what does Nelson Pass have to say about power cords? |
I will try to answer you one at a time so please be patient.
Mrtennis: I am an engineer. In my career I have designed RF amplifiers and power supplies. I am an audio hobbiest and member of an audio club. It is my distraction and my method of escapism. My power cords are made of the 12 awg three conductor orange power cable (I wish they had it in black) you can buy at Home Depot. It is the same cable some people have used as speaker cable and claimed it is actually pretty good. I use Hospital grade connectors. I have not experimented with fancy materials or the like. I have made many power cables for members of my audio club and have listened to many of their high end cables during meet-ups at my home. I have yet to detect a sonic difference when used with my system. Being a hobbiest I don't have access to all the fancy materials you list. I like to keep it simple. When I design a supply I incorporate EMI and RFI filtration so I don't have to depend on the power cord to provide that level of assistance.
Douglas_schroeder: I am very much a Pass Labs fan. I may be overly harsh on the audio equipment manufacturers. I work in the defense sector. Our designs must pass rigorous specs for ripple, EMI and RFI specifications that commercial equipment does not. You can't afford to have a missile go off course because of excessive interference. Too often I have seen power resistors take the place of chokes and a single capacitor as an RFI filter instead of a common mode choke. Commercial products are just that, products made for the consumer. While they are designed not to emit EMI and RFI, I sometimes wonder how much thought was put into the succeptability to EMI and RFI. I guess that would put the conditioner manufacturers out of business. I don't want to single any one manufacturer out. That wouldn't be fair in my opinion. I can assure you I have seen some good ones and some bad ones.
Zaikesman: In retrospect, maybe I am overly harsh on the commercial HiFi manufacturers. They are not held to the same standards as those in the defense electronics arena. I sometimes that they also design to keep the costs down. I am not saying in defense electronics cost is not an object but the specifications are well laid out and they must be met and the designs reflect that. Our tax payers pay good money to protect our nation and expect our hardware to work and work well. In the power supplies I used to design we used RFI tight enclosures and some of the other features I already mentioned that are quite expensive to implement.
Again this is just my personal opinion. I guess in the end that power supply design in commercial HiFi equipment helps to sell power conditioners and power cords.
Thank you all for listening to me. I know these threads get a little crazy. Whether you agree with me or not is up to you. This is just one ex power supply designer's opinion. Thats what makes this hobby so much fun.
FYI...My DYI designed system is in our upstairs listening room. I enjoy what Nelson Pass has designed so much that I have an X350.5, X1 and Xono in my living room. If I could only be 1/100th as good an audio designer as Nelson that would be something. |
Hi Liguy, never was any offense taken. I simply felt you should be more forthcoming rather than cryptic, and now you have been, so thank you. Yes, we'll agree to disagree -- I just find it impossible to believe that hundreds of high-end component manufacturers are all somehow derelict in the designs of their power supplies when, in your estimation, they could just as easily make them completely immune to whatever influences power cords have upon them.
Personally, I feel it's more likely the other was around: It's the ubiquitous generic stock power cords which were discovered to be suboptimally designed (as we might expect for something that's not even designed or made by the component manufacturers themselves and is treated as a giveaway 'freebie' and an afterthought). |
Liguy, ok, very nice additional explanation; thank you!
So, your position is that any component which can be influenced sonically via power cords has a compromised power supply. Correct?
Which components/companies would you say have "done their homework" and have correct power supplies? You seem to be a fan of Pass amplifiers. Do you feel Pass has what you would consider a proper/good power supply? What other companies would you say have good power supplies? |
oops, typo--i meant well designed power suuplies--my bad.
i meant to say how do you test the hypothesis that well designed power supplies are insensitive to power cords ? |
hi liguy:
since you are an engineer, how would you test your hypoethsis that well-designed power cords are less sensitive to power cords ?
if you could devise a rigorous experimental design i might make tou a wager that the affect of differences in the sound of a stereo as power cords vary is independent of power supply.
keep in mind there are many variables which are involved in the fabrication of power cords. in your experienece, have you used gold, totanium, palladium, and other "exotic metals ? have you used a variety of iec connectors and plugs ?, have you used a variety of dielectric materials ?
all i am suggesting is the range of parts contained within a power cord could affect the sound of a stereo system , despite the best efforts of power supply design.
i will be convinced of your hypothesis when i hear the results. |
Thank you for understanding my position. For a while it felt like I was under attack for having a different opinion when in fact I always maintained that power cords do make a difference in systems with poorly designed power supplies.
The sad part is that there are some high end companies that do not put very much thought in power supply design. I wonder how many companies actually use inductors in their power amplifier power supplies or how many use regulated supplies beyond a three terminal regulator in their preamps or build in EMI and RFI filters beyond a capacitor or leave out a filter to keep DC off the input of a power transformer to eliminate transformer hum? It is certainly food for thought on why power cords make a difference or sound different on different equipment. |
Liguy, I sought no war either, and I totally agree that better power supplies can minimize differences, but that is not the real issue. Are there still differences? I hear them even with some very substantial power supplies.
My real question was how do you find a worthy power cord, given your beliefs. You answered that. Thank you. |
Firstly, I am not trying to start a war with anyone. This is my opinion and I hope you respect my opinion and I do respect yours.
My whole premise is that more effort could be put into audio equipment power supplies by the manufacturers to save a comsumer money in not having to spend megabucks on expensive aftermarket power cords.
I have no doubt at all that you all hear differences with different power cords. My thing is that if the power supplies were designed properly the need for fancy power cords would cease to exist provided the power cord could provide the proper current.
After a lot of practical experience, I have come to the conclusion that the effects of the following plague audio reproduction in the respect to the deliverence of AC power to audio equipment:
1.The rejection and reduction of internal radio frequency interference (RFI) and noise already present on the mains line.
2.Immunity to and rejection of additional external RFI, EMI (Electro-Magnetic Interference) and noise.
3.Low impedance and high current capacity, so as not to current limit any equipment.
Each of these problems could easily be addressed in the power supply of a piece of gear.
I am an engineer by trade and I have designed and built quite a bit of audio equipment including their power supplies as a hobby. My power supplies are always designed to combat the above. I am also somewhat of a diciple of Nelson Pass and his SUSY or X designs and frequent his forum on DIYaudio.
I have listened to a number of high end power cords but have chosen to build my own. I am always a fan of using the best parts I could (wire, and connectors) to build a power cord just the same as using the best components I could when building an amp or premap or my turntable.
I hope I have answered everyones questions. I don't want to write a book here. Again, I do not dispute that people hear differences. I think those differences can be minimized by better power supply design. |
Jeez, people the man has made it perfectly clear that he's stating his opinion, not discounting yours. |
Liguy, I would like to know which audiophile components you have supplied designs for power supplies. I am assuming, of course, that you refer to designing power supplies for audiophile components. If not, then your entire discussion of the non-necessity of aftermarket cords or their ability to change the sound is invalid.
Now, if you are getting technical on us, and have run tests with various power supplies in said component and not been able to hear a difference, then you may have a point. I have not ripped out and replaced power supplies in components to judge whether solely a PS is effected by the various power cords. However, in absolutely EVERY component I have ever used, with power supplies which the manufacturers I'm sure feel are optimized to the components, the components have been altered sonically via power cords. Besides, it's not very easy to listen to a power supply sans the rest of the electronics; so in the narrow sense your argument is a moot point.
I have, however, conducted tests of actual audiophile power supplies (i.e. filters, power factor correction units, etc.) and found that EVERY single one of them is also influenced by power cords. So, I have serious reservations about your claim that a properly designed PS is not able to be influenced sonically by a variety of power cords.
It's not a matter of operation vs. inoperation, but more like mixed drinks. If I want a rum and coke, do I count the atoms to make sure the mix is ok? There are many "flavors" of Rum and coke. Simliarly, there are "flavors" of power cords, all of which are slightly different in their electrical properties. Sorry, your measurements will not show this. :( You'll just have to trust us on that. I know that can be difficult for a theoretical kind of guy. ;)
Unless, of course, you wish to conduct some simple, not too expensive informal testing, which I think would show you, in say about two to ten seconds, that I'm right. :) |
Liguy, I certainly can conceive of a power supply that show no response to what power cord is used to connect to the wall outlet, but I have not heard one apparently. I do have a question, however. How did you choose a power cord to use on these supplies? I mean that sincerely also. Did you just choose something from Radio Shack or did you make a power cord and use the same one on all the supplies you made?
I can certain conceive of a power cord that would have poor capability to pass the needed current. Equally I cannot imagine the design principles that would guarantee the very best power cord. I have made shotgunned multi-strand power cords that were more than 2 inches thick and too cumbersome to use easily and which didn't sound any better than those half as thick. I have also heard very expensive power cords that were not exceptional. And I remember once when a Radio Shack pc which I owned so embarrassed the manufacturer of a very expensive silver power cord that they bought several and reverse engineered it to make their "improved" power cord. |
Liguy: "power supplies do not require fancy power cords" Your statement maybe true for equipment to function however it does not eliminate the possibility of after market cords providing change in sound good our bad. Is this not what the original question refers to? |
Liguy - Have you done any in depth listening/comparison with some good aftermarket power cords or is your "opinion" purely theory based? |
I am truly sorry but I simply do not subscribe to your accessment. I mean no offense. I am sticking to my guns that properly designed power supplies do not require fancy power cords. I do not disrespect your opinion, I simply do not hold the same opinion. I have designed power supplies for a living and fully believe that I, during my career, have designed more than a few that can allieviate the effects that would cause detriment to audio reproduction.
I mean no ill will, we simply disagree. |
Dear Mr. Liguy: I would like to think a lot of things about myself (and a few of them may even be true!), but in the situation I had something of particular relevance to tell you, I'd go ahead and spell it out... |
I would like to think I have designed a few during my career. |
Hi Al, if there was any sonic difference between having the preamp right-side-up and upside-down, I was never aware of it. (As best I remember, I tried listening for such when I first turned it over, but not with the expectation of hearing much if anything different.) I did, however, eventually change the power cord again, from the model I had chosen over the stock cord at the time I reinstalled it right-side-up, to another model I use today throughout my system, and those comparisons were carried out in normal orientation using the adapter. (I should note that some other aspects of my system had also changed during that time span, and still more since.)
As a postscript, I also remember talking again to the ML dealer and mentioning my findings. I thought I was enlightening him, based on what he'd told me, but his reaction was that he wasn't surprised, that of course if you upgrade the power cord on any component you're likely to hear some improvement in a revealing system no matter how good that component's power supply, but getting into that just wasn't practical for his ML preamp customers. (I'd also note that the No.38x series was designed prior to the time when aftermarket power cords came on the scene, and I do believe that ML's later preamp offerings dropped the obscure receptacle placement.)
PPS - Hi Richard, almost as soon as I'd posted I wished I hadn't taken the bait, so thanks! |
Zaikesman -- I suspect that you would have been thorough enough to do this, but just to be sure, did you repeat your power cord comparisons after you obtained the footers, to verify that similar differences resulted with the various power cords you used when the unit was right side up, compared to when it was upside down?
Obviously the preamp was not designed, developed, tested, and voiced with the expectation that it would be used in an upside down position. I can certainly envision that operating a component upside down would have sonic consequences, due to the thermal differences that would result throughout its circuitry, those effects conceivably including increased sensitivity to variations in power-related parameters such as ac voltage.
Regards,
-- Al |
Zaikesman....I now award you the prestigious forum post of the year award, congratulations sir. |
Liguy, you got me at "I think..."
A little bedtime story: Once upon a time, when I was shopping for my last preamp, the model I narrowed-in on for several reasons, and ultimately got and kept, was the Levinson 380S (now discontinued). But it wasn't until I'd bought and installed it that I learned the IEC power cord receptacle was located on the middle of the underside, facing down and oriented sideways, and the stock cord used a special right-angle plug, different even from most other right-angle plugs, that was oriented sideways and didn't protrude much, so that it could fit in the limited space available underneath and exit out the back instead of the side.
Stymied from using my aftermarket cords, I called the dealer where I bought it to ask what he thought. Then I asked a handful of other ML dealers the same question. They all told me the same thing you're saying: "The power supply in that preamp is so well designed, it doesn't need or benefit from an aftermarket cord. Don't worry about it." (In fact the whole reason ML located the receptacle in that inconvenient spot had to do with keeping potential mains interference away from the audio signal path.)
Being the terminally curious and unbelieving type however, this explanation sounded suspiciously pat to me. Really? You're telling me that the one preamp which won't easily accept an upgrade cord also just happens to be the one preamp that won't benefit from the use of same? Because all my other components do.
I wasn't having it. So I removed the preamp, readjusted my rack shelves so there was double the amount of headroom above it, and reinstalled the thing UPSIDE-DOWN. Of course it looked like hell, what with the feet sticking up in the air like it had keeled over dead, and even more so with a limited-flexibility power cord arching up twice as high out its exposed belly, but at least now I could plug in my aftermarket cords to my heart's content (even if reading the alphanumeric display became a bit of a challenge).
And you can guess the rest: Surprise surprise, but substituting a better power cord made about the same degree of improvement as it usually does with any other component, no matter how well-designed. And mind you, this was with a preamp -- no big current demands, and the stock cord was a decent one of 'sufficient' guage. (Ultimately, after living this way for months trying various cords, I did get some compliant footers to place under the preamp's own feet to help raise it up more, and a right-angle IEC adapter, so now it rides somewhat tall in the saddle but determinedly right-side up.)
One other thing: Last I read anything about it, Halcro, whose proprietary UPFC (Universal Power Factor Corrected) power supply is supposed to be the core technology of their ultra-low distortion amps, and who are probably one of the most engineering-driven companies in the business, had taken the unusual step of supplying an entry-level aftermarket power cord from Shunyata as standard equipment instead of a typical stock cord -- but with the proviso that even this cord, which retailed for around $150 I believe, was still to be considered as just a 'starter' cord, that should be further upgraded for maximum performance. Try telling Halcro this means their signature power supply isn't properly designed. |
Liguy, have you ever heard a properly designed power supply?
Mrtennis, is it possible to design a perfectly neutral cable? If so, what theories would lead you to it? |
cables are like tone controls or flavors of icecream. there are so many from which to select.
sometimes you might prefer one flavor, other times, you might prefer another. |
I think that if the power supply in your component is designed properly and the stock power cord has sufficient gauge to deliver the current demanded by the component there is no advantage to upgrading. |
I think much of this discussion focuses on power cord differences that are of low magnitudes. I have certainly experienced instances where I had to struggle to decide which I preferred. Finally, I decided to keep which ever pc I owned.
But I have also had experiences where hearing which pc was better is quite clear. |
Hi Byron, agreed that this can and should go no farther. However, just for the record (and perhaps a better understanding if I failed to make myself clear, which is probable), I never said that a power cord's sound changes with listening position. (As it clearly does with a speaker -- although of course a speaker can only make a sound at all when fed a signal that by necessity involves power cords, and more to my point, a power cord can only be heard through the lens of a speaker in a room at a listening position.) What I did say was that a listener's impression of a power cord's sound can change with their position. The word "impression" to me invokes subjective reaction, evaluation and judgement, both qualitatively and at the basic pro or con level. |
08-22-11: Zaikesman
I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting? This is an interesting question, and one that had not occurred to me. My answer is of course no, I would not conclude from differences in sound from one listening position to another that a speaker fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics. The reason is because I have some idea of WHY a speakers sound changes from one listening position to another, including things like the speakers radiation pattern, diffraction, room reflections, room modes, etc.. In the case of power cords, however, I have no idea why a power cord would sound different from one listening position to another. The whole idea is a bit of a puzzle to me. I think you mean something like this
If you're sitting in one spot, you might react positively to a cord substitution that subjectively tightens the bass response. If you're sitting in another position, even with the same system, you might instead react more positively to a cord substitution that subjectively mellows the treble, or whatever
Remember, this is always in relation to the use of some other power cord; it's not possible to compare against no cord at all.
What puzzles me about this statement is the attribution of the differences heard TO THE POWER CORD ITSELF. I understand that, in situations where the introduction of a new component results in a change in the sound, there is a natural temptation to conclude that the change heard is attributable to the component introduced. But that is precisely the reasoning I was challenging in my initial post on 8/18, when I wrote
one of the most recurring flaws in the thinking of many audiophiles, namely that
If using component X results in audible difference Y, then audible difference Y is attributable to component X.
On the face of it, this statement appears to be not only true, but self evident. But under quite common circumstances, it is false. Specifically, its false when the audible difference resulting from the use of a component is an EXTRINSIC characteristic of that component. But now we're back where we started! :-o Something tells me that weve come about as far as were going to. I appreciate your thoughtful comments, Zaikesman. This has been an interesting thread, and its piqued my curiosity to experiment further. It isnt a consensus, but its something. Bryon |
let me add one statement which should end the discussion:
whether power cord a sounds different than power cord b in a stereo system is a function of a listener's perception. end of story.
i don't think it is necessary to justify one position or another.
oops that's two statements. sorry. |
do not confuse a component with a stereo system.
dispersion is at work when one changes the listening position. it has nothing to do with a compoent.
while you may prefer a line cord from one position or another, it is the same cord, and its function has not changed. what has changed is possibly frequency response, imaging, etc., because of the relationship between sound waves and your ears. |
I still do keep hope alive of someday getting off this thread, but (very simplistically): If you're sitting in one spot, you might react positively to a cord substitution that subjectively tightens the bass response. If you're sitting in another position, even with the same system, you might instead react more positively to a cord substitution that subjectively mellows the treble, or whatever. (The same would also apply to a change in speaker placement, choice of music, etc.) Remember, this is always in relation to the use of some other power cord; it's not possible to compare against no cord at all.* The same goes for listening position -- there is no neutral reference, only preference for a given set of circumstances, and when circumstance changes so may preference.
*[By contrast, it is often possible to evaluate interconnects against the neutral reference of their absence from the chain, rather than purely against one another. It's called bypass-testing, and it's more objective than conventional, subjective substitution testing, but few seem to do it, or even know about it. One easy way to do this, which I use, is by placing two competing interconnects under test into a remote-controllable preamp's A and B tape loops. Then from the listening seat it's a simple matter to, with no switchover delay, select and deselect first loop A a few times, then do the same with loop B, by which method the addition of each interconnect into the chain is compared against the direct feed (the 'bypass', or that interconnect's absence from the chain -- you are NOT switching directly from loop A to loop B; you're switching each loop in and out of the chain in turn, always listening next to the direct feed as your baseline reference). Whichever of the two interconnects alters the sound the least (or least objectionably) as compared with the direct feed wins the round (and can advance to a subsequent round if more than two interconnects are being tested). If you've never done something like this before, you might be surprised at actually 'hearing' your interconnects in isolation for the first time.]
And since I'm posting, I'll risk adding that I don't subscribe to the notion, advanced above, that changing out a whole suite of 'em in unison is the best way to evaluate power cords. The choice shouldn't be between exchanging two different cords between two components, which is obviously confounding, or else going to that other extreme. As with any test, it's always best to hold the variables down to a single controlled one if possible. In this case that means substituting one cord on one component while the others are held constant. In the case of changing out all the cords together, to me that's unecessarily introducing too many variables at once; you may certainly get a feel for the 'sound' of that new model of cord vs. whatever suite of cords was replaced, but not for how that cord synergizes with each individual component, which means you may overshoot the mark and miss the optimum configuration. Of course one may work one's way toward progressively replacing them all with the new cord, after having thoroughly evaluated that model by serially substituting it throughout the existing system (as ultimately happened with me), but I expect that for most audiophiles, like for myself, acquiring multiple duplicate cords before having even comprehensively evaluated a single example represents a putting of the cart before the horse and is unrealistic. (I also don't buy the notion, however helpful and comforting it may be, that one must hear any changes obviously and immediately or else they are rendered definitionally insignificant.) |
The seating position discussion has muddied the waters unnecessarily. I believe the intent was to discuss the fact that other variables are at work, as well as the variable of the sound of the cables. I would hope we all agree that seating postion has no absolute effect upon the performance of the cords. Perceptually, however, the system may sound quite different when seating position is changed, and one might find themselves more agreeable to the system. However, likely not.
It has been my experience that seating position does not have the "power" as a change to radically alter one's perception of what the cords are doing. Yes, I have changed seating positions while working with cords, and no, it has not had a significant effect on my conclusions about how any particular cords sound. While it does alter the experience it does not override the cables' performance when compared. I have selected the same cables as my preference regardless of the seating position (within reason, of course).
Recently, after having the same seating position for five years elected to move my chair 5" closer to the speakers. The sacrifice is in the sharpness of the center image, but in exchange I have more bass presence and a slightly more 3-D soundstage. Doing so has had no impact upon my decisions regarding cables.
I haven not tested the following thought, but it is quite possible that I would prefer a system where I was not in my favorite seating position (i.e. 5" off, like my previous listening position) yet had superior cords versus one where the seating position was "improved" and had poorer cords in use. Going off of my past experiences I would prefer the system with the better cabling.
People who think room treatments and seating position get you 90% of the way "there" (As though cheaper gear set up well will get you almost SOTA sound; it will not) will likely choke on that statement. However, anyone who's conducted tests of sets of cables as I have will likely agree.
Similarly, at times I change the inside angle of my panel speakers; once again this has not changed my conclusions regarding any particular cables.
Based on continued testing I would not consider listening position to be a dominant factor in cable selection. |
expensive power cords are funny! some of you should find some uber expensive wire and redo your entire electrical system from the pole in front of your house to the outlet! out of curiosity, i wonder why every manufacture doesnt sell an optional upgraded power cord with their amps,cd players,preamps,etc.,since so many people think they hear an improvement with them? it could be that the cord supplied is good enough in my opinion. |
when i was shopping for the quad 63, i visited several dealers until i heard what i liked. so it is obvious that speakers will sound different for a variety of reasons.
if i change my listening position from kneeling to sitting to standing, my quads (esl) will sound different. those who own this speaker will attest to my experiences.
changing ones seating position , while changing the sound of a stereo system, saying that the line cord contributed to the change in sound seems counter intuitive.
could someone explain how this could happen.
is it reasonable to also say that the performance of an amp could change with listening position.
listening position affects how sound is dispersed to your ears. amplifiers, power cords, and other passive and active components , excluding a speaker, do not disperse or propagate sound waves. |
Hi Byron, I'm sorry, but this otherwise very nice discussion is just too far off into the weeds for me to want to compound it further by delving into the boring specifics of my own experiences with power cords. You sound like you've done just as much experimentation as I have, so if you reached somewhat different conclusions, that's good enough for me. Regardless of whether or not the 'sound' associated with a cable is extrinsic, intrinsic, or, as I think most of us would probably accept, a mixture of both (a description that in my book would apply to all audio components), it seems to me that as long as one can hear the differences, no theoretical conclusions regarding this factor would be likely to ultimately affect one's choices. The debate probably arises (once again) because we are talking about cables in general, and power cords in particular, which still tend to be regarded by many as though they are somehow extraneous to the signal path. About this: I will challenge you on one thing though, and that is this comment...
A listener's impression of a power cord might change with seating position!
On the face of it, this statement strikes me as a contradiction of the position you are advancing. If a listeners impression of a power cord changes from one listening position to another, then the power cord in question FAILS TO exhibit consistent audible characteristics. And if a power cord fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MINOR changes like listening position, then how can we expect the very same power cord to exhibit consistent audible characteristics across MAJOR changes, like two different audio systems? I would take exception with two of your premises there. First, I don't consider a change in seating position to be at all minor. To me that can certainly be more significant than almost any change in wires (or of almost any component of similar type and quality, for that matter). As for the second, I'll ask you your own question in modified form: If your impression of the sound of a speaker were to change with listening position (and of course it would), would you then conclude that the speaker "fails to exhibit consistent audible characteristics" and expect it not to necessarily display any similarities in another setting? |
