Sound United umbrella is largely a mix bag of low to mid fi brands targeted to mass market. What high end 2 channel , non-mass market brands are walking away from 2 channel audio? I can’t think of one. You picked Wilson - well read Wilson Audio’s statement about the linked product- new cinematic experiences await those who choose the latest Dolby® systems. Alida is ready. Cinematic is the key word Wilson isn’t targeting this towards their music customer base.Since you selected them, has Bryston announced that they are moving away from 2 channel? No! Has Kef? No! Are they providing a product for those with home theaters and maybe also listen to music via that Yes! I don’t begrudge anyone their enjoyment of Atmos and it’s future may be bright time will tell. But telling folks that everything 2 channel will be a boat anchor in 5 years , maybe amongst the low -mid fi, not happening in the high end. As the saying goes we'll agree to disagree on this specific.
Do NOT Blow Your Entire Budget on Two Channel Audio
Yes, two channel audio is here, and is not going away. However, object based audio is delightful, widely available on Tidal and Apple Music, and should be in the listening room of every music lover on the planet, not just "audiophiles. If you plan to be a music fan a year from now start building your object based audio system today. You will need:
1) A receiver/processor capable of Dolby Atmos.
2) A subscription to Tidal or Apple music.
3) A Firestick, ATV, or Nvidia Shield.
4) A minimum of 7 timber matched speakers and a subwoofer.
Once you experienced stereo would you ever go back to only mono? No, you would build a system capable of either mono or stereo. Now that object based audio has arrived do the same thing. Build a system capable of mono, stereo, AND object based audio. When Elton John heard Rocket Man in an object based format for the first time why did he demand to convert his entire catalog to Atmos? If you don’t know, then you need to go listen to Rocket Man in a good Atmos setup ASAP.
So, take your budget, DIVERSIFY, and get a good Atmos capable receiver or processor. Object based audio is NOT last decades surround sound or home theater. It is for MUSIC first, if you need a recommendation on how to allocate your budget feel free to post a question. Most importantly, you don’t NEED two systems, one for music and one for movies. A good object based audio system can play two channel music just fine. A two channel system on the other hand can’t play object based audio without a proper processor or receiver.
Greg Penny talks mixing Rocket Man in Atmos.
https://youtu.be/ggzfcUKDqdo?feature=shared
High End sound means "natural Timbre " first... ( then optimal dynamic and transient, optimal balanced sound etc are necessary for this because timbre is a "musical" concept and an acoustic one not a DSP one ) .... Then it means 3-D holographical imaging, soundstaging ... ( BACCH filters does not degrade "timbre" and for that are my choice ) Two speakers or an headphone is enough...No supplementary cost... Kota gives much interesting information thanks to him but is biased toward unnecessary tools and a bit provocative... I am a bit too myself sometimes then i will not advise him about that... 😊
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By "high end do you mean: Wilson Audio Atmos: https://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/alida/alida Bryston: Kef: |
IDK what you mean about "high end"? Do you mean "boutique" brands with sales of less than $10MM a year? Do you realize that Sound United is an umbrella for brands like B&W speakers and Harman includes JBL Synthesis and Revel??? OK, so both Harman/JBL Synthesis have moved to Atmos: https://youtu.be/V3K7GF7tz4Q?feature=shared Sound United/Marantz/B&W: https://youtu.be/JYOc2mcGOi0?feature=shared Mcintosh: https://youtu.be/EEzgbs88jlU?feature=shared
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@kota1 " The answer is Sound United, as they were just acquired by Medical Supplier Masimo, Harmon Kardon was acquired by Samsung." Your view of what the high end manufacturers are and my view is vastly different. Tell me when the high end starts moving to Atmos because what you have stated throughout your post above has zero to do with the high end |
So, you wanna have it ALL right? Start with a MCH preamp (must have XLR outputs and decode atmos) from Marantz, Mcintosh, Anthem, Arcam, Rotel, etc. (Keep the two channel preamp you likely already have, this isn’t an either or system). Speakers, easy peasy. Start with two and then add on as you like. BUT, what do you do about an amp? Keep it simple, able to expand with your system as you add channels, and able to do high quality music. I recommend going with monoblocks. Check out monoblocks from Emotiva, Van Alstine, Nuprime, Parasound and Anthem. If you are a tube fan Carver, Black Ice Audio,and Allnic offer monoblocks. |
Who is the atmos market? Young people (including males and females) with phones and earbuds listening with bluetooth and wireless. Gamers and VR enthusiasts. Owners of home theaters atmos comes in all budgets from soundbars to $1,000,000 custom built home theaters. Movie goers. Audiophiles who own multichannel preamps. Who is the "audiophile" market? Baby boomers with disposable income that are predominantly male. Who else is buying stereos that cost over $20K? A very, very, small population. Can you see why you should diversify your audio budget? |
This thread isn’t about good, better, best, its about budgeting. I know you can build a great system for less than $1000, right @mahgister ? You can budget for a system that fits your lifestyle and decor right @bikeboy52? @webking185 is 100% correct when he says don’t blow 100% of your budget on home theater. You shouldn’t blow 100% of it on stereo either. What I am saying is there are companies that spent buku bucks on the blackberry infrastructure and all of their execs carried one in 2003. Why would you spend 100% of your budget on stereo when apple is doing to apple music and spatial audio what they did with the iphone when it crushed the blackberry, motorola, etc? Who is going to stop amazon and apple combined? Five years later those companies that invested heavily in blackberry, poof, they never recouped their investment and had to start over with apple or android. I LOVE two channel stereo BUT don’t own a TT or any records. It makes a difference in how I budget right? I do subscribe to Tidal, Amazon Music, Prime Video, Vudu and Netflix. I do own lossless bluerays of both music and movies with atmos soundtracks. It makes a big difference in how I budget. The only WRONG way to budget is the ostrich method, which is obviously prevalent when I see some of these posts.
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Wow ,the way this new format is “ blowin up” maybe we should petition the owners or mods of Audiogon for a name change for the site. We could have a contest to see who comes up with the best new name, Im all for “Atmosbegon” whatta ya think? We need to act fast though,we don’t want to be caught with our pants down…… oh wait, nobody here really cares about current consumer electronics trends ………. Never mind. |
I own an old slap phone from 15 years ago.... I hate phone...( yes i need them and appreciate them as a mere TOOL not a toy) 😊 But even a dinosaurus know that it is not necessary to own more than a very good headphone and BACCH filters to enjoy 3-D music... I apologize to repeat this as an alternative much less costlier proposition for 3-D audio experience... With then minimal connections no new one added and minimal number of components then no new one added and lower noise floor then and a cherry on the cake no timbre distorsions/ modifications as in some other DSP... Who claim more is better ?
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@kota1 that tells me all I need to know. |
@kota1 - "Why would I want to BUY multiple sources, dacs, and preamps today that will be boat anchors within five years?" What hi-end manufacturers are you seeing divorcing themselves from 2 channel audio that this is going to be the case? (This is a more appropriate thread to continue this topic so I moved my reply.) The answer is Sound United, as they were just acquired by Medical Supplier Masimo, Harmon Kardon was acquired by Samsung, and the "high end " industry is being replaced by mobile headphone listeners and home theater, by far. Atmos is backward compatible with headphones, cars, TV’s, and every variation of speaker setup you want want, from soundbars, a pair of speakers, five speakers, seven speakers, sixteen, etc. Atmos is being streamed online in video and audio, live TV broadcasts, in movie theaters and live performances. Don’t get me started on gaming and VR but you can look it up. Do you remember what the iphone did to the blackberry? When apple adopted spatial audio it changed the music industry forever, I am not investing $$$ into what I perceive as an audio version of the blackberry. Next question?
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9 x Grammy winner mix engineer Manny Marroquin at Larrabee Studios: "Anyone I play atmos for, it changes their mindset, man that was the most amazing thing I heard" https://youtu.be/JmQN477uSbE?feature=shared Interesting that you don’t need a big space to get great sound, notice the wide channels wall mounted to the far left and right amd the height channels mounted above:
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@ozzy62 , +10 |
@invalid like Quadraphonic sound LOL. |
I saw the video when the engineer said he didn’t get the economics. I can’t say I have any data but I do understand the business model. Spotify has the largest market share. AAPL wants to take market share by offering something different, that is backward compatible with all of its products, that works with bluetooth or wireless, and that its customers can notice an improvement. Lossless doesn’t work on some bluetooth or wireless connections, spatial audio does. Users don’t get charged for the new format, aapl eats it in the hope of luring customers from competitors. Remember, aapl isn’t just apple music, its an ecosystem and they wanna crossell you phones, headphones, the works. The engineer gets new business from updating old recordings and recording new music in atmos. Dolby collects licesning fees to profit from the R&D they did to develop it. I can’t believe this engineer can’t connect the dots. See: As far as the audio engineer community and atmos that ship has sailed, see: https://aes2.org/events-calendar/2023-aes-international-conference-on-spatial-and-immersive-audio/
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For an alternative view: https://youtu.be/8fwMneAnfyc?si=jvuAllK-GleUQZPT This guy argues, well he makes several points but a main one being that Atmos is about gatekeeping. I agree with him that much of this is about the Benjamins: what new gimmick can we come up with to extract more profit from the public. As for the “immersive” experience, I’m already getting it from two channels and a strategically placed sub. I’ve had visitors who have come to my place, listen to my audio system for the first time, and walk out with tears in their eyes, saying that my system sounds better than being at a live concert, it is the most acoustically dimensional audio system that they have ever heard. Sorry but with what I’ve got, and at my age, if I’m making another audio move, if anything I’m downsizing from here. But for now, I’m more than happy with what I’ve got. |
Frank Zappa "Over Night Sensation" lossless Dolby Atmos release is on pre-order, can't wait until it drops: https://www.zappa.com/over-nite-sensation/#/
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Interesting interview of Bon Ludwig in Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/bob-ludwig151the-mastering-master-bids-farewell-part-2 Not an Atmos fan: ”What is it about Atmos—Apple's version at least—that Bob doesn't like? First there's the fact that it is a lossy-compressed format, akin to (though more sophisticated than) MP3 or ACC. "With Atmos, we're going back to a lossy world. ... It screws up the sound in so many strange ways." Also, "There is no way to remotely guarantee how the listener is going to listen to it." That's a big part of the point of Apple's Atmos. It could be via a pair of Apple's Atmos-supporting earbuds, or a smart-speaker gadget that throws sound around a room, or a real-deal immersive listening space with speakers around the room and on the ceiling. "When it's done really right in a great system, it's impressive. It’s still not lossless high-res, but it can be impressive. But, that is few and far between." In the case of a hybrid SACD, there is usually a 2-channel stereo layer with its own discrete stereo mix. No such layer exists in the "immersive" formats, including Atmos. Instead, a "binaural" version is "folded down," derived from the multi-channel mix.” For me, it doesn’t really matter. I listen to vinyl about 95% when critical listening. I find that the optimal amount of single malt scotch - not too much, not too little - maximizes the immersive experience! |
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While I applaud the OP’s enthusiasm and positive demeanor, I’m still scratching my head. A few points I would like to make ... Being an audiophile has never been about winning the popularity contest. Whether it’s our choice of music, equipment, or room setup, audiophiles always have and always will be a niche group that does not represent the broader music industry in any shape or form. Throwing around metrics about apple, etc. is kinda useless and not relevant to this crowd. Unlike what the OP thinks, many of us started with multi-channel systems and have come to prefer two-channel audio, despite its supposed weaknesses. Not everyone is looking for an immersive experience where you’re in the middle of all the action. So the assumption that most audiophiles don’t know what they’re missing vis-a-vis multi-channel (with or without atmos) is rather naive. We tried it, many of us still have it in our home theater systems ... and we still prefer two-channel. My nephew is big into spatial audio (headphones) and I’ve tried listening to it several times. Yes, it is different and enjoyable but not something I would like to listen to for hours at a stretch. Perhaps that might change as more artists convert their recordings to spatial. As far as allocating budget goes, it is a very personal decision. Some of us want to invest in one system and take it as far as we can. For example, if I have $1000, I will build the best 2-channel system for $1000. If I have $50,000, I will build the best $50,000 2-channel system I can for $50,000. It’s all about your priorities. Telling people how they should allocate their budgets will always make you look like a pushy know-it-all, hence the pushback from some members.
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ATMOS and other spatial audio is already taking off. It costs them nothing and can provide a better experience. Of course they are going to use and listen to it. As the mastering gets better, they won’t go back to flat 2-channel. The mad irony of your astute observation are the people who are complaining the most (at least in this thread) are the people who spent a LOT of money for that flat 2-channel. Rather than embrace the change and the mad rush of new adopters of atmos/spatial audio (over 80% of all apple music subscribers have tried it and its growing according to AAPL) and finally getting better quality audio they condemn it. I will give them the benefit of the doubt that they properly auditioned it in their own system. |
I haven’t posted much about budgeting for receivers as they change so quickly. The general rule is the model that is about one level down from the flagship is usually the best bang for the buck. I think if you are more into movies a receiver is fine. There are some really high priced receivers that are billed as being able to do two channel very well. Personally I prefer active speakers and a good processor. I do have a man cave outfitted with nice 9 channel Onkyo receiver and some JBL speakers. It is nice for movies and casual listening actually very good and for the money it cost fantastic bang for the buck. But I can’t see it as more than a good "entertainment" system and I prefer to do critical listening in my media room. As for these new separate 9 and 11 channel amps, they might be great but it makes you wonder how a single power supply can swing all those channels. With 2 or 5 channel amps you need a rack of them. With active speakers that are internally biamped, active crossovers, and an all in one system designed by the engineer has so many advantages from a SQ perspective as well as a price advantage. |
@nonoise :
I believe you are talking about the famous Cin Dyment. With his 20+ usernames all banned here. The famous dude in all audio forums there are including all Facebook audio groups.
While it did cross my mind, and I thought the same, I am still not sure it’s the same dude. Something does not sound right to place Cin Dyment’s signature on this guy’s posts, although the same rhetoric. Time will tell…
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When it comes to budgeting for an Atmos capable processor I would carefully consider the FEATURES you need. Sometimes the difference between a flagship processor in a companies lineup and the next model down are the features rather than the sound quality. Why pay for a 16 channel processor if your room is maxed out at 9? |
If you are budgeting for an all in one 2 ch/atmos system and want to save $ and space check this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/speaker-selection-strategies-for-atmos-music |
If you setup your room for Atmos it is pretty straight forward as Dolby has laid out the specs. If you use the same specs at home as they do in the studio you will probably get a similar experience. Here is a thread for setting up your room: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-setup-your-room-for-atmos-and-immersive-audio |
I don’t see the need for disagreement. I never stated that one format is better (although certain mixes can be better). My OP is simply to budget for both formats. You can get a great 2 channel preamp for about $2500. You can get a great processor capable of atmos for about the same price. If you choose to buy a 2 ch preamp for 100% of your budget or a processor for 100% of your budget you won’t see me chastising you for your choices. I will say that ALL atmos capable processors can do two channel so consider that when budgeting. I didn’t "need" to budget for a 2 channel preamp at all, I did so because the additional features complimented my system.
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Nope. What I take issue is, is with his overbearing and pushy attitude. As for you, I see you joined on 7/11/23 and noticed you have the same cantankerous manner as one particular member who's been banned many times but yet continues to resurface under different handles. I hope it's not you, again. All the best, |
The point of this thread is if you are spending money on audio, allocate some budget to object based audio. The content producers are "future proofing" their music while producing a more engaging experience for fans. Why not "future proof" your MLP? See: Dolby Atmos allows music labels and publishers to future-proof their music while providing a new listening experience to fans. In the past, new music tech was locked behind proprietary formats like DVD-A and SACD. It made listening to new music tech a chore, since these formats barely lasted the decade which they were introduced. Dolby Atmos has become ubiquitous among the music industry, not least of all thanks to Apple Music support. Many artists and IP owners are rushing to get their music mixed and remastered in this new format. Dolby Atmos music boosts listener engagement and can help refresh or revitalize an older catalog. It’s also satisfying to listen to for audiophiles because you can hear the difference between instrument clarity and separation in the mix. See: |
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While I agree @kota1's enthusiasm is a bit over the top, you have no obligation to click on his topics. This topic is frankly far more interesting and will have far greater impact on audiophiles than any number of threads I can currently see eating bandwidth.
It exists already. It is called self control.
Headphones can deliver spatial audio. You don't need a huge multi-channel system. Based on what these kids are listening too, ATMOS and other spatial audio is already taking off. It costs them nothing and can provide a better experience. Of course they are going to use and listen to it. As the mastering gets better, they won't go back to flat 2-channel. Aptx Lossless for Bluetooth can do CD quality and higher. LDAC for Bluetooth can as well. Bluetooth in 2023 can do audiophile. Products will start to build it in. What makes an audiophile real or fake?
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Any real audiophile is not using Bluetoot. That is exactly why atmos is growing so quickly, if you were aapl and had to present a business model to the shareholders would you want to include as many AAPL customers as possible or eliminate every customer that isn’t an audiophile? You can consume atmos music as you choose (yes, it works with two speakers, you don’t need to buy more). BTW, this album is fantastic in atmos:
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