Directional cables - what does that really mean?

Morrow cable do the same thing indicating with an arrow  ….I think they are serious...To verify...

And furthermore...even if the 0.000001 parts of impurities acted as tiny diodes or magnets it doesn’t explain how that would affect the sound or the audio signal. Do you believe the tiny magnets or diodes pull the signal faster one way than the other? Cut me some slack, Jack!

And while I’m at it, there is no evidence that the separate strands of stranded cables would not (rpt not) be all in the same direction with respect to directionality. The reason the strands are all in the same direction is because the entire process of making wire and making cables is automated and controlled. They don’t just dump the strands in a barrel and pull them out willy nilly as needed.

When Skoff said

 there's no way—other than by listening to it—to determine which direction a piece of wire's "preferred" direction of signal flow may be.

please note geoff he said a piece of "wire" not "cable". Don't conflate the two. 

Which you just did again: 

 The reason the strands are all in the same direction is because the entire process of making wire and making cables is automated and controlled.

While probably true for wire, this is far from true for cables. Ted Denney for example seldom misses an opportunity to remind people his cables are all made by hand in California. There's video tours of him showing who and where they are made. Same for him explaining how when wire comes in before ever making a cable they test the wire for directionality. Not that he's the only one. But he does it. So maybe try and keep straight the difference between a raw piece of wire and a finished cable.

Even in the case of finished cables built and marked for direction there still is no way to determine which is preferred except by listening to it. Otherwise you are assuming not determining.

Personally, I was for many years one of those who assumed and never bothered trying to see if there was anything going on or not. Then one day I hooked up a really good interconnect and was crushed to hear how bad it sounded. Devastated maybe is a better word. I mean it was awful. Spent the better part of a day sick at having thrown away so much money. Then it hit me. Went and had a look. Sure enough. Damn. Switched ends. What a difference! Night and day! 

Same thing happened a few months ago with a Blue Quantum Fuse. Immediately felt it sounded better, yet wrong. More dynamic, but also a lot more confused. Hard to explain exactly. Flipped around, hugely obviously better. 

So again you guys can argue to the moon about why, just so everyone understands that being unable to say for sure why does nothing in the least to change the fact that wire is indeed directional- and the only way of determining this is by listening.

Actually, the companies who control cables for directionality know exactly which way the wire will sound best all along the whole process. As soon as they receive the wire they know. It’s not rocket science. All it takes is a little coordination. The ones who have to try a wire both ways are the ones who don’t care about wire directionality. So the claim is in fact a strawman argument.  

If the speaker cables or the interconnects are not controlled for directionality then you don’t necessarily know if both L and R channel cables are in the same direction. So reversing their direction simultaneously might not do anything except move the problem to the other channel.

Obviously I’m referring to big operations, in terms of stranded cables. If someone has a basement operation, and can’t automate, who cares?

A free tweak to the best short explanation why wires and cables and fuses sound different when you reverse them. I’m not talking about whether they act as diodes, magnets or porcupine quills. I’m talking what physically takes place to produce such differences. I’m not even talking about measuring voltage drop differences. In the case of fuses, disregard the fuse holder to discourage arguments by you know who.

Wire is cast and then drawn through a die, which creates a pattern in the grain structure and a non-symmetrical pattern at the surface of the wire, affecting high frequencies and causing the sound to be comparatively flat and grainy in one direction and more relaxed and natural sounding in the other.....so they say

This is an interesting subject to say the least.  
Some say directional
Some say bs
Patience costs money lols

mitch2
Wire is cast and then drawn through a die, which creates a pattern in the grain structure and a non-symmetrical pattern at the surface of the wire, affecting high frequencies and causing the sound to be comparatively flat and grainy in one direction and more relaxed and natural sounding in the other.....so they say

>>>>>>That all might be true. But it doesn’t explain how the signal is changed by differences in the surface pattern. Or how that change to the signal translates to differences in sound heard by the listener. For example, very slight differences in resistance would not entirely explain the relatively large differences in sound, as I and others have pointed out. Your explanation also fails to explain why low audio frequencies are also better when the wire is in the proper direction.

You think a lot Geoffkait, but it is very interesting and I think true....The human apparatus it seems is also the key to anything in perceived phenomena, not only  electricity "per se"  and other materials factors that are necessary but not sufficient...

mahgister
You think a lot Geoffkait, but it is very interesting and I think true....The human apparatus it seems is also the key to anything in perceived phenomena, not only electricity "per se" and other materials factors that are necessary but not sufficient...

>>>>I would like to keep the two categories separate.

One category is for tweaks that operate by standard physics, which includes those affecting the electrical or audio signal anywhere in the system, acoustic waves in the room, vibration, RFI/EMI, even quantum mechanics devices like WA Quantum Chips I include here.

The second category I reserve for everything that affects the sound indirectly, usually by affecting the subconscious one way or the other. And by affecting our sensory perception of sound. When I use the term sensory perception of sound I equate that to hearing. There is no difference. This category includes most PWB Electronics products like Silver Rainbow Foil, the Red X Pen, Morphic Message Foils, etc. I also put in this category the Photos in the Freezer Tweak, my Clever Little Clock, my Teleportation Tweak, and the Black Cable Tie Tweak for Drain Pipes.

While some folks have insisted these tweaks in the second category MUST work by some known, conventional method, I assure you, gentle readers, they don’t. By the same token, and ironically, a lot of folks like to claim the tweaks in the first category, the relatively conventional tweaks, operate by psychology such as placebo effect or expectation bias. 

I understand why you want to keep these categories separate, it is not only legitimate but necessary to an analysis...

jea48
What about the type of dielectric, insulating material, used to cover the wire?

>>>>We are rather certain the problem is the wire, not the insulation because of the directionality of fuses.

What happens to the sound of an audio system if cables that have been installed in an audio system for 100s, 1000s, of hours are flipped end for end?

>>>>>Directionality of wire doesn’t go away by breaking in the cable or fuse, even after 1,000s of hours of play. In fact, in the beginning HiFi Tuning claimed that no matter which way their fuse was inserted it would eventually break in to be the “correct direction.” They later recanted that claim. You can try this for any fuse, flipping it around after many years. You should be able to hear a difference.

With cheap cables that use stranded conductors and PVC insulation there’s a good chance you will not hear any differences. But how about good quality audio grade cables that use better dielectric insulating materials?

>>>>I believe you will hear a difference even with inexpensive stranded cables and PVC insulation. Of course it helps to have a reasonably good system and a good listener To perform that experiment. As I said directionality is not related to the dielectric material. All this directionality stuff is not brand new. It’s been established over the course of many years. I realize it might be new to some.

Obviously shielded cables can also be directional if the shield is connected at one end only. But that is a separate issue from wire directionality.

So far there are a few possible phenomenals but no one has really able to articulate a plausible scientific explanation. Here are some that I have heard:

1. Diode affect
2. Metal latice structure due to manufacturing process
3. Resistance (especially high freq) is different based on which direction (but the signal is AC).

The link to Roger Skoff article is helpful but I think they are more or less "conjectures" but there are really no "hard" evidence.  

Yes, there is no hard evidence and Skoff even admits it, but think about it for a minute. In the advancement of this hobby, the results have been for better isolation of components, better transmission of data, and better overall performance using better quality materials, which seem to help.

If higher metal purity results in better sound, then Skoff's imaginings show some merit. The differences can be small but the end product is a more enjoyable one, and to some, it's worth it to pursue and make.

All the best,
Nonoise

The signal travels in one direction down the wire >>>>>>> from the source to the load. It is NOT alternating back and forth.
The signal, energy, travels down the wire in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source >>>>>> to the load. It is not alternating back and from the source to the load. > < > < > < > .

I understand what you’re saying, but energy flow only explains part of the equation. The other part is what in the actual metal structure that affects the flow of energy in one direction vs the other.  I mean what in the metal structure that favors the direction of energy flow.  I am still looking for a scientific explanation why in one direction, energy flow is better vs. the other.

If higher metal purity results in better sound, then Skoff’s imaginings show some merit. The differences can be small but the end product is a more enjoyable one, and to some, it’s worth it to pursue and make.

I understand. It’s like in the court of laws, there are a lot of circumstantial evidences but I am still looking for the so called "smoking gun".

For example, lets say you have a diode.  You connect a sine wave source on one end, and measure the output on the other end.  Then you connect the same sine wave source on the other end and measure on this end.  The output should be the same.  But of course its more complicated because you have a lot of these small diodes in the metal structure, not ONE diode.  So I am looking for some "hard" explanation why these diodes would make a difference.

Anyway, since this forum does not allow posting picture or images so it's hard to discuss anything technical here, I created a thread over at DiyAudio.com and make an attempt, albeit a bit primitive and you could say "simple minded", to understand cable directionality.  But that's all I got lols.

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/the-lounge/340158-symmetric-circuit-difficult-question.html#post5850083

Question - If there are a “lot of tiny diodes” in the wire as you suggest how do you explain why they would all be in the same direction? Furthermore a diode inherently suggests the signal is transmitted primarily in one direction. But this is not the case for wire, even when the wire is described as directional. In the ordinary world, the one outside of audio, the word directionality has no meaning. It’s strictly an audiophile term.

If there are a “lot of tiny diodes” in the wire as you suggest how do you explain why they would all be in the same direction?

I don't think I said that they would all be in the same direction.  What I said is that even if they are randomly distributed, in term of probability, it is highly unlikely that all these "tiny diodes" would be distributed in such a way that the signal will cancel themselves out.

First I am not an expert in cable manufacturing, but based on what I've read, the way the cables are "drawn" in the manufacturing process, it is possible that these diodes would favor one direction over the other.  

Also, I am just trying to get people to discuss.  Anyone is certain welcomed to chime in.  I am not going to claim I know more about this topic than any others.

In the ordinary world, the one outside of audio, the word directionality has no meaning. It’s strictly an audiophile term.

It is likely that "directionality" if it exists, probably would not affect, says, high speed communication, but we over the years have found out that our hearing is sensitive to things that are difficult to explain and hard to measure ... hence the debate about things such as burn-in and so on.  

There is no evidence to support the idea of tiny diodes occurring in wire or tiny magnets for that matter. As for high-speed communications, as fate would have it directionality shows up in audiophile Ethernet cables, USB cables and HDMI Cables. Directionality is not an issue in any communications, including telephone wires or networks.

There is no evidence to support the idea of tiny diodes occurring in wire or tiny magnets for that matter.

I only repeat what I've read from the article.  I don't know either.  You're guess is as good as mine.

As for high-speed communications, as fate would have it directionality shows up in audiophile Ethernet cables, USB cables and HDMI Cables.

That's is because ultimately your hearing is sensing the difference if it's audio application related. 

What I meant is that in term of other high speed communication that is not audio related, directionality probably not an issue.  I mean there are a bunch of high speed communication that has nothing to do with audiophile.  

What do we know so far? Part 1

The “audio signal” in a wire is a voltage and current. The audio signal is not (rpt not) the music. It is not the musical waveform. It doesn’t become a musical waveform until the speakers produce acoustic waves in the room. The audio signal in a wire is alternating - in most cases the circuit is AC. In a fuse the alternating signal goes back and forth in the same wire. In speaker cables the signal also goes back and forth on both separate wires, the - and +. Push me pull me. 🔛 But we are only interested in the signal moving toward the speakers, the direction that affects the sound. We can forget about the signal when it’s moving in the opposite direction. 🔜 That explains how a wire in an AC circuit can be directional.

Next up, why is a wire non-symmetrical and how does that physical non-symmetry affect current and voltage? And what is the electrical signal - current and voltage - comprised of?

If this is what you have leaned in Part 1, which took four years, I would hate to see what you are going to learn in Part 2 and how long it will take.

….."But we are only interested in the signal moving toward the speakers, the direction that affects the sound. We can forget about the signal when it’s moving in the opposite direction. 🔜 That explains how a wire in an AC circuit can be directional.".....

Color me confused, the above explains that the signal is directional, as it travels towards the speaker, it does not explain why the construction of the wire makes it directional, or whether the construction alters the sound produced whether hooked up one way or another in relation to the extruding process.  

That’s in Part 2, silly goose. 🦆 First things first. Part 1 explains why wire or fuses in AC circuits are directional - assuming a physical non-symmetry of the wire - and establishes what the audio signal actually is and isn’t. By the way, we’ve already shown the theory regarding the drawing of wire through a die has some problems. So if anyone has any brilliant ideas feel free to chime in. 

Pop quiz 🤗 - The skin effect states very high frequencies travel on or near the surface of the wire. People sometimes claim the skin effect is the reason wires are directional, i.e., high frequencies are distorted in one direction 🔚 but not the other 🔜. But the “signal” is current and voltage. It’s not (rpt not) audio frequencies traveling down the wire. So, what’s going on?

jetter, (and to all)

The human ear is like a diode. In the most serious way. We only hear the leading edges of transients and micro-transients and their interrelations in time and level.

The rest, the ear does not hear, in the literal sense. The cilia of the ear are pushed back by the positive wavefront, and the signal is sent though the nerve system, for a certain amount of time. The longer the time it is pushed back, greater the loudness perceived. Ie, this is how damaged cilia in the ear, from extreme sound levels, will create the condition of tinnitus.

This is easily observed, the whole positive transient signal only thing, via looking at the output of a horn speaker. Where the distortion of the waveform varies between an approximate narrow bandwidth 15% distortion (at the horn’s best coupling frequency) to an average of 20-40% distortion.

Yet people perceive that horns are low distortion. due to how the ear works.

the same point of analysis is functional in all aspects of audio signal handling and design criteria.

Basically put, 100% of the human hearing system is tied into intently analyzing signal by using the world’s best FFT analyzer and computer (the ear brain)..on approximately 10% of the audio signal, and the signal that is looked at..is the place where nearly 100% of the distortion of a signal, via the gear (any gear), takes place.

Basically, if you had to look at the spots in the signal itself that all gear distorts..all of the distortion would be crammed into the transients and micro-transients.

Engineering makes the HUGE MISTAKE, the FUNDAMENTAL ERROR, of taking 100% of the signal and then mathematically calculating a distortion figure for the given scenario.

Which is fine, if all you are doing, is engineering. But not really, when you think about it.

In this case, you are trying to correlate your measurements to what is HEARD BY HUMAN EARS. If one is not doing this, then the math and the testing and the regimen, is invalid.

If we go back and weigh the measurements, to commit to distortion analysis , the distortion which occurs ONLY in the transients and micro transients, just like the human ear does, then the measurements begin to properly correlate to what the ear says it is hearing.

The ear is not wrong, the people who trust their ears are not wrong.

The engineering tack and methods, as they stand... are totally off in the wrong direction, in a different area and not valid for using in audio.

Now..transient function in a cable, well, that is a complex matter, where the complex impedance is dynamic and shifting, in those transient and micro transient signal load scenarios.

This a 1000% more true for a fuse. With a fuse, the dang thing is designed from the ground up to respond and clamp down on transients and micro transients, and dynamically shift it’s complex impedance in an upward fashion, while dealing with transients.

We can hear fuses, we can hear distortion, we can hear cables, we can hear and differentiate equipment via hearing...due to how distortion occurs in all things audio and electrical- and how the ear works.

The problem is the engineering mind and it’s inability to connect to the understanding of how the measurements and their weighting NEED to take place.

This is due to the engineering minds (that try to argue this subject) not grasping the scope of the whole situation, ie they are missing half the equation.

the next "but..yeah.." pouty argument to come out of the engineering mind ....is that the folks with the good ears can’t possibly hear that stuff..as THEY (the engineering minded folks, many of them...) can’t hear it.

well, well, well....

Here comes the ugly part, for the human ego. Ears are like the mind, like IQ. They vary. From moron to genius level. Some can hear complex signals and decode them without self lies, while another brain ear combination cannot unravel the complexities of the signal at all.

To boot, the latter mind and ear type...superimposes learned prior signal memory on top of new ones, to simplify listening and speed up signal recognition in the brain (part of ear/brain language decoding in situ and in real time). Deaf, brain dead... and repetitive. Literally. Ouch.

Thankfully for some (or anyone if they put in the effort), the ear, like the mind, is plastic and can learn. But the story of the ear is quite complex and might take something akin to a chapter from a book level of writing for me to sit here and explain it all, and that is not happening.

To witness the ear working in the conscious mind and to see or witness the ear putting it’s filters into position and then doing living breathing FFT analysis thing: just put earplugs in at the mall, walk around for a few minutes to half an hour and then pull the ear plugs out.

At first the filters of the brain will be off (they’ve relaxed and aligned to a different orientation) , but in the first 2-3-4-5 seconds, you can hear and note them coming on-line and filtering the giant wash of sound so you can decode out of the whole noisy mess. Pay attention to those first 2-5 seconds, all the live and living brain-ear action happens right then.

Thanks very much for this clear reflexion …. Better said than I was able to say...My best to you Teo_audio.

This is closer to reality. As long as we’re talking about it. All of that cilia of the ear and how the neurons transfer energy is SO silly and old school. Silly cilia! Auditory specialists and neuroscientists are long, long way from Tipperary. In reality the brain acts like a transceiver. A transceiver that’s tuned to many frequencies not just audio frequencies and not only conscious information.

From my website, “How the Clever Little Clock Works.” (Excerpt)

Chronological Memory
Our internal clock controls how memories are stored and retrieved. If we wish to reminisce about a favorite book or movie we can recall the highlights fairly easily, and if we put our minds to it we can remember scenes from movies in remarkable detail - scenes many hundreds of frames or more in length. A movie’s images and sounds are "videotaped" by our eye and brain, then stored in memory chronologically. Furthermore, the movie’s images are integrated, synchronized with the movie’s soundtrack in memory. If our memory was not chronological we wouldn’t be able to recall high-density, multiple-frame scenes from movies and replay them in our mind’s eye. The brain even has a Scene Selection feature similar to a DVD player’s so we can consciously select specific scenes from a movie and replay them in our mind’s eye like, say, Remember Sammy Jankis or Memories can be Distorted from Memento.

Our internal clock is always running, whether we’re conscious of it or not. Sometimes we awake just before the alarm clock goes off because we know it’s time to get up. All the things we see and hear and do are time-stamped with Present Time coordinates. Thus, the next day, the following week or ten years later we’re able to associate specific times in the past with our experiences. "What were you doing last Tuesday evening?" "Let’s see, at 8 O’clock I was watching Total Recall. At 9 O’clock I watched Altered States."

So, whether we’re aware of it or not, we maintain a continuous record of events, sounds, words and images, including time of occurrence. We can sing a song from memory or play a musical instrument. With a little effort we can remember passages from books and movies like Roy Batty’s death speech in Blade Runner, "I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All these moments ...will be lost... in time... like tears... in rain. ...Time to die."

Time is Relative
The Clever Little Clock addresses an esoteric but fundamental problem that occurs when playing an LP, CD, DVD or any other audio or video media. This problem also occurs when watching taped programs on television or listening to recorded programming on the radio in your car or at home. In all of those cases the observer is confronted - subconsciously - by time coordinates that are different from the Present Time coordinates he’s been using his entire life to time-stamp sensory information. What are these interfering time coordinates, where do they come from and why are they a problem?

The alien time coordinates are contained in the recording (or videotape). The time coordinates (of what was then Present Time) of the recorded performance, millisecond by millisecond, are captured inadvertently along with the acoustic information. When a recording is played, the time coordinates from the recording session (which are now Past Time coordinates) are reproduced by the speakers along with the acoustic signals of the recorded event. Those Past Time signals become entangled, integrated in the listener’s mind with Present Time signals. Because the listener is accustomed to using Present Time signals to synchronize his chronological memory, he subconsciously perceives the confusing, interloping Past Time signals as a threat. This perceived threat produces the fight-or-flight response, which in turn degrades his sensory capabilities. The reason that live television broadcasts, like the Superbowl and the 2010 Olympics, are generally observed to have superior audio and video compared to taped broadcasts is that they don’t contain Past Time signals, only Present Time ones.

The time coordinates on the recording are associated with the 4-dimensional spacetime coordinate system (x, y, z, t), where t ranges between the start time and end time of the recording session. While you could say that t0 of the spacetime coordinate system marks the first instant of the Big Bang, it’s the relative difference between Past Time and Present Time that’s important, not the difference between t0 and Past Time or Present Time.

When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius. When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot. --Shlomo Riskin 

I'm with you on all of that Geoff. Problem is, it is 2-3-4-5 steps ahead for the vast majority of people.

And you'll get the crackpot labeling red blanket treatment. (cover a person with a white sheet and kick it until it turns red)

As Mr average Joe blow will demand the full 'functional for them explanation'. And that just can't happen. 

And the onus is on them, not you, but they will make it your problem, even if it is theirs. They have to raise themselves to the qualities of the question and the answer and that aint happening. But their big deep inner butt-hurt, is real enough for them to share with you. With extreme levels of projected violence, sometimes. Nevermind the normal attacks. You know all this, but you keep trying anyway. Bravo. 

“If I could explain it to the average person, It wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize.”
― Richard Feynman

Some here are going to become apoplectic. 😄

Like usual GeoffKait forget to be stupid and write very interesting true thing ,it is my opinion for sure...Perception is a time mystery...When a recorded event play in a dvd you cannot synchronize your internal clock easily, but more than that, you cannot also naturally guess the future like usual with these organ that read and create time, our intuition and our imagination...You only guess with your reason and this is a bit short of the task...

What was told to me is that the metal (copper, silver) is drawn in one direction that is accounted for.

Audioquest advertises highly polished surfaces of their solid core conductors for some of their high end cables.. Does that eliminate the problem? 🤔


DRAGON CONDUCTORS: SOLID PERFECT-SURFACE SILVER (PSS)Perfect-Surface Technology applied to extreme-purity silver provides unprecedented clarity and dynamic contrast. Perfect-Surface Silver (PSS) is AudioQuest's highest-quality metal. Solid conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of cable distortion. Extremely high-purity Perfect-Surface Silver minimizes distortion caused by the grain boundaries that exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating harshness and greatly increasing clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other coppers.

I can't wait for Part 2.  I got enough money for all the booze in the world lols.

Better start drinking now, Scooter. Part 2 is coming. Don’t have an aneurism. 😳

teo_audio
" As Mr average Joe blow will demand the full 'functional for them explanation'. And that just can't happen."

Mr average "Joe blow" may be a member of the Flat Earth Society and use the same argument. Him being steps ahead of the rest of the pack and all. Further more, there are plenty of intelligent, long term audiophiles (not Joe Blow) who think most of the arguments (above gauge and good quality basic cables) is not relevant as it relates to human hearing. However, by all means buy the the appropriate level of items that do make a difference in your system. 

On the Serengeti you don’t have to be the faster wildebeest. You only have to be faster than the slowest wildebeest.  

 Part 2 is coming.

Will it be a mini-series type?

Andy, let me explain something to you. Whenever you come here and post a comment and interrupt me, you’re breaking my concentration. You’re distracting me. And it will then take me time to get back to where I was. Understand? Now, we’re going to make a new rule. When you come in here and you hear me typing or whether you DON’T hear me typing, or whatever you hear me doing; when I’m in here, it means that I am working, that means don’t come in. Now, do you think you can handle that?

Let’s hear your Part 2. I got the entire Albertsons beverage selections at my disposal. If I distract you, just drink some booze.  Since you wasted my time, I'll distract you :-)  Fair game.  

With some RCA cables the shield is grounded at the source end only!

This may reduce noise pickup through the cable and can be noticeable on some systems.

don_c55867 posts07-14-2019 6:25pmWith some RCA cables the shield is grounded at the source end only!

This may reduce noise pickup through the cable and can be noticeable on some systems.
 Report this

>>>>That’s real good but we covered that in class last week.

andy2
Let’s hear your Part 2. I got the entire Albertsons beverage selections at my disposal. If I distract you, just drink some booze. Since you wasted my time, I’ll distract you :-) Fair game.

>>>>Enough with the interruptions! Right now I’m removing all the long words and making the sentences extra short so you won’t have so much trouble with understanding it.

Thanks Geoffkait… I am not qualified to say that your post are true explanation, but it is the first time I read very plausible one for me...

That's it?  I thought it would come in a weekly installment like the Bachelor ... er ... I mean the Bachelorette since it's our Kait :-)

What a good lad. Not a single question. 🤗

Looking forward to Part 2 next week release.  I still got my Avengers End Game end of July streaming release on my calendar.  

Coming soon! Directionality for Dummies. 🤗