Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)
It is with reluctance that I start another thread on this topic with the ONLY GOAL for believers to share their experience about aftermarket fuses. To others: you can call us snobs, emperors w/o clothes,... etc but I hope you refrain posting just your opinion here. If you did not hear any difference, great, maybe there isn’t.
The main driver for this new post is that I am starting a project to mod my NAD M25 7 ch amp for my home theater. It has 19 fuses (2 per channel, 4 on the power supply board, 1 main AC) and I will try a mix of AMR Gold, SR Black and Audio Magic Platinum (anyway that is the plan, I may try out some other brands/models). As it is reasonably difficult to change them, esp the ones on each channel module that requires complete disassembly, I would like to know what the direction is for these models mentioned and of course, others who HAVE HEARD there is a difference please share your experience on any fuse model you have tried.
Fuses are IME directional: Isoclean is one of the first to indicate the direction (2008/2009) on their fuses. Users of HiFi Tuning (when the awareness rose quite a bit amongst audiophiles) have mostly heard the difference.
As an IEEE engineer, I was highly skeptical of cabling decades ago (I like the speaker design of John Dunlavy but he said on many occasions that cables nor footers matter at all, WRONG!). Luckily, my curiosity proved me wrong as well. I see the same skepticism that I and many others had about the need for aftermarket cables many, many years ago now on fuses and esp on the direction on fuses.
Another example is the direction of capacitors (I do not mean electrolytic types). Even some manufacturers now and certainly many in the past did not believe it can make a difference sonically. Maybe some do but it takes time in the assembly to sort and put them in the right direction/order (esp as some of the cap manufacturers still do not indicate "polarity") so that maybe is one argument why this is not universally implemented.
Not sure how to comment on your last entry stevecham: 1. ) If I had not a limited budget, I would probably have selected something in the price range like SR Black. I have so I aim to increase the music listening experience in my HT, hence the emphasis on L+R. BTW, in Home Theater setups, if you have noticed, people have different speakers and furthermore, if you have read up more on DIY, you would see people using different bypass caps for different drivers (in the same speaker).
2.) It is not uncommon that HT setups have one amp for the L, R, C and another for the surround channels.
This is an exercise to improve the sound in my second system, not one in statistics.
jazz, i like the way you increased the number of independent variables with brands of fuses in various places in your nad, in addition to the large number of orientations possible.
UL in the US (VDE in Germany is a very well respected organization) have drawn up standards for low-voltage fuses (e.g. UL Standard 248-x). Besides adhering to low variance in expected values like breaking range, arc time & temperature, cut-off current, every part (body, fuse dial gauge, end caps, filling material,...) must lie within well-defined specs and even the process of fabrication is scrutinized. Those standards can be purchased from UL. We're of course talking about UL certification which is a must for consumer goods, mostly done by independent labs who got their accreditation from UL.
For those who really know what they are into (and willing to take the risk), drilling into fuses is like riding a bike w/o hands, it can be fun but not recommended if you are prudent. Sometimes I like skydiving!
Bypassing fuses is not an unknown alternative and practiced by quite a few, even (small shop) manufacturers and I know at least two of them very well. Still, I like the presence of a great fuse, IME the SQ is better.
Jea48, if you’re trying to convince me you don’t understand plain English you’re doing an excellent job. There is no advantage to a UL listed fuse. Haven’t you been following the discussion? And nobody ever suggested that drilling a hole in a fuse would not negate the UL listing. But what I’m saying is, so what?
A recognized third party testing lab? That's very funny!
"geoffkait said: "The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not."
NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!"
Huh? There is no obligation or requirement for third party testing. Nor is there any requirement for UL listing. There are not even any such requirements for audiophile amplifiers. Hel-loo, End of story.
geoff kait machina dynamica
Obligation? Requirement? Where in any of my posts do I say it is required?
I have said in other posts on this forum and probably on AA you have a problem understanding what you read. I don’t know it if medical problem or what. I could care less what your problem is.
Update: Reading up on comments on after market fuses, I have decided to try the following setup: Furutech for L, R, C channel N/C for other channels AMR for the power supply board AH Platinum for the main AC
jea48 responded:
Just make sure what ever you buy is UL listed or at least safety tested and Listed by a recognized third party testing laboratory.
FYI, drilling a hole in an already UL Listed fuse and then filling it with any type of foreign substance voids the UL Listing of the fuse. The fuse is no longer a Listed fuse.
"geoffkait said: "The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not."
NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!"
Huh? There is no obligation or requirement for third party testing. Nor is there any requirement for UL listing. There are not even any such requirements for audiophile amplifiers. Hel-loo, End of story.
geoffkait said: Let’s see, should I use a non UL rated fuse and get better sound or use UL rated fuse and get worse sound? What to do, what to do?
lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
jea48 responded: Hell, why stop there. The equipment will probably sound even better bypassing the fuse/s and fuse clips all together.
In fact while you’re at it bypass the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel and tie the hot of the branch circuit ahead of the main breaker. After all the fewer the electrical connections, the better.
lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
geoffkait responed: Of course I was not suggesting any such thing as bypassing fuses or fuse clips. The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not. Just because you can come up with some screwball example such as bypassing fuses doesn’t actually prove anything. And in view of the fact that aftermarket fuses, even when not UL rated, are in fact safe you’d have to be pretty hardheaded not to use them.
tootles
geoffkait said: "The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not."
NO, what is at issue here is if an audio grade fuse, that is being sold to the unknowing consumer, has been tested and listed by any third party testing laboratory. Period!
jea48 2,039 posts 05-03-2016 11:09am geoffkait said: Let’s see, should I use a non UL rated fuse and get better sound or use UL rated fuse and get worse sound? What to do, what to do?
lol Hell, why stop there. The equipment will probably sound even better bypassing the fuse/s and fuse clips all together.
In fact while you’re at it bypass the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel and tie the hot of the branch circuit ahead of the main breaker. After all the fewer the electrical connections, the better.
lol
Of course I was not suggesting any such thing as bypassing fuses or fuse clips. The debate here is whether the fuse must be UL listed or not. Just because you can come up with some screwball example such as bypassing fuses doesn’t actually prove anything. And in view of the fact that aftermarket fuses, even when not UL rated, are in fact safe you’d have to be pretty hardheaded not to use them.
Good one jea48! When Ric Schultz was modifying the Modulus 2 pre-amp, he was offering a fuse-bypass option. On a tube pre-amp? Probably not a good idea, but I had him do it to mine anyway. Older and wiser, I wouldn’t now.
Jeff, simply on Fleabay. I bought them first from Darren (AMR distributor) before but was pleased to find them this year elsewhere. As other mentioned, not great (compared to the current line up) but certainly better than stock.
David, you may want to compare the SR Black with the AM BeeWax, given the level of resolution of your system.
auxinput: A wonderful description and suggestions for best possible placement of fuses. I have the fuses you have nicely described (except for the audio magic brands). My three systems are all tube amp based, two use Marantz SACD players, and one uses an Antelope DAC.
So for me the best results have been with the Synergistic Research Black fuse and in the horn based system I also had nice results with the SR 20 fuse. The Isoclean fuse was too warm and slow- but better than stock. The Furutech fuse imparted a thinness that was my least favorite. But I want to emphasize that all these fuses are better than stock.
All these fuses have a different sound depending on which direction they are installed. The sonic changes are greater in magnitude than tube rolling. A synergistic Black fuse had a greater effect than putting in the Elrog 845 tubes (versus the already nice Psvane WE 845 tubes). And a lot less money !
I am a huge fan of audio companies that offer a 30 trial with refund. No "restocking fee", no "obtaining a RAF number", no hassle, no bull.
This return policy is why I am a big fan of the Synergistic Research fuse line. Try a SR-20 or a Black fuse (or both) learn from the changes you hear and return anything that does not make you happy.
Update: Reading up on comments on after market fuses, I have decided to try the following setup: Furutech for L, R, C channel N/C for other channels AMR for the power supply board AH Platinum for the main AC
Great feedback, keep them flowing and thanks for the link jea48! Maybe i should spend more time at AA, people there seems pretty open minded. No snide comments, no declaration of insanity.
Thanks auxinput for a great assessment of what would fit and bringing up the Furutech fuse, it was on my mind last year that slipped off my list. Since it is just "home theater" or my 2nd system, I have put a limit of $75 per fuse/$ 150 board for the main channels, so the Furutech seems to be a great contender. I have a NordOst Valhalla power cord to inject speed and transparency into the NAD pre, the NAD M25 is currently fed by a HiDiamond P4, possibly superseded by the Cerious Technologies Graphane Extreme (awaiting feedback on another thread). I have already bought the SR Black for the main fuse, upgrading from the SR Red.
For my DAC (PSA DSD), my favorites are Audio Magic BeeWax and Audio Horizon Platinum, the Platinum has better midrange whereas the BeeWax is extremely well balanced.
I have the AM nano liquid a long time ago in my CJ 140 mono blocks, upgraded them with HiFi Tuning Supreme first (the other variants of HiFi Tuning all have too many deficiencies), then SR Red.
For my HT and library system, I used to have Isoclean fuses, before they were upgraded.
Unrelated to fuses since this has been brought it up: About using superlatives in one’s product description. Ted Denney has earned a great deal of skepticism and still comes up every time with promises close to live-changing experiences in audio. His HFTs, pretty popular, got a revision not long after the release (HFT V2) and now he proclaims the new UEF dots are the new gold standard. GK, the audiophile world has a good memory. I have been using SR power cables and have abandoned them because every 6 months the king died, long live the new king! I get there is R&D (I doubt there is really that much R&D at SR, maybe marketing R&D as a lot of Ted’s three letter gimmick are rehashed gadgets) but is not it coincidental (for the top line of his company) that SR product releases are so predictable and constantly short? Lastly, people listen to people they like and buy from people they like (hel-loo!). There are plenty great examples (Lew @CJ , Peter @Symposium, Jim @PAD, John @Audience, Dave@StarSound, Chris @VHAudio, ...etc).
Thanks for the link to the ton of threads on AA on the dodgy subject of fuse directionality. One thing I see that’s fascinating is that posts on fuse directionality go back at least as far as 2001. So if my math’s right people have been crabbing about aftermarket fuses and directionality for at least 15 years ago.
"Hi Jazz, It's very possible that there could be some degree of marketing hype involved, it wouldn't be the first time for an audio product. That's why I try to keep it simple, I just listen to a product and form an impression based solely on what I hear."
I would probably not call it marketing hype. I'd call it good marketing. The whole idea is too catch people's attention, no? Let me give you an example. I call my tourmaline anti static gun product a Particle Accelerator. Is that wrong?
Madness! it's all Madness! No one ever talks about the human ear. You would have to be a mechanical robot with everything electrically perfect, to detect any difference in a response of frequencies reproduced from a speaker. by changing a fuse, let alone wax in a fuse! I think wax in your ear would be a better clinical trial for sound differences. 95% of people cannot even hear the full audio spectrum of 20 20.000 Hz let alone fuse direction, which incidentally makes absolutely ZERO difference. Next thing I will hear is fuses made of gold retailing for 5K is what you need for your Amp. Madness! But I guess when the neighbor next door comes over, you know the one, the poor slob that has a Radio Shack sound system, and you're sporting your Krell knockout ultra spectacular Power Amp, coupled with your mind boggling Martin Logan reproducers. You can boost! I have gold fuses pointed in the right direction, and hey! can't you tell the difference from your puny Radio Shack job? Madness!
"Cool! To clarify for others, AP/MTT refers to an IEEE Chapter on Antennas & Propagation/Microwave Theory & Techniques."
Hey, whaddya know? I was in antennas and propagation for quite a while. ELF, HF, UHF, EHF, strategic communications, MILSATCOM, that sort of thing. Spread Spectrum a plus.
Hi Jazz, It's very possible that there could be some degree of marketing hype involved, it wouldn't be the first time for an audio product. That's why I try to keep it simple, I just listen to a product and form an impression based solely on what I hear. Charles,
Jazzonthehudson 4-29-2016
Al, have I fallen for a SR marketing trick? Their website states
repetitively "... By applying a two million volt signal to a cable at a
specific pulse modulation, and ultra high frequency for an exact
duration of time, we transform the entire cable at a molecular level
through a process we call Quantum Tunneling...."
Well, it seems safe to say that he is using the terminology in, um, a creative manner.
FYI I was part of the AP/MTT chapter and worked for a large telecom
equipment manufacturer so no high voltage experience. I did had fun with
Microwave oven trafo powered arcing in labs though...
Cool! To clarify for others, AP/MTT refers to an IEEE Chapter on Antennas & Propagation/Microwave Theory & Techniques.
I was never active in any IEEE Chapters; never had the time.
"The Audio Magic fuses are just the stock "Little Fuse" brand. They are decent industry stock fuses, but nothing special (like $4 a fuse). Audio Magic drills and fills the fuse with an anti-vibration solution, which acts to reduce electrical resonances. Resonance definitely plays a part in sound quality, but I have never tried an Audio Magic. Also the Little Fuse wire element is nothing special (just tinned copper at best). These were just too expensive for me to audition."
I had both the Isoclean and the Audio Magic Super Fuse (the model just prior to the Beeswax Fuse) and the Audio Magic Super Fuse was better. I used them both in a Woo Audio all tube Headphone amp with super modded Oppo 103 and naked Sennheisers 600s. The Woo Audio amp used 1942 Tung Sol rectifier and ’52 Sylvania Badboy output tubes. With the high cost of fuses these days, e.g., Audio Horizon, HiFi Tuning, SR Black Fuse, nothing should be off the table especially if you only have one fuse; the fuse on my Oppo was bypassed. ;-)
Here's the blurb for the new Beeswax Premier Super Fuse. Note the anti RFI/EMI blackout powder in the Premier Super and it's probably in the Beeswax too.
Audio Magic latest fuse in the Premiere line - The "Beeswax" Premiere Super Fuse. The Beeswax version is identical to the Premiere version the only difference is Audio Magic uses Beeswax instead of the normal anti vibration fluid, this gives the fuse a very organic flavor but maintains the detail, dynamics and everything the Premier does. The production of this fuse is very difficult, very hard to get the Beeswax into the fuse but the organic sound is too good to ignore.
Audio Magic Premiere SUPER fuse: The Audio Magic Premiere SUPER fuse incorporates Audio Magic's anti vibration fluid to stop the element from vibrating at 50/60 hz and then the blackout powder super mix to absorb all EMI and RFI riding the element as well as ambient sources and insert a new HRC core which allows the signal to travel through the fuse in a more cohesive and linear manner. The Premier SUPER fuse is 30% better than the Audio Magic's original SUPER fuse in every way!
Ok, I've had a lot of experience with different fuses here. I will agree that the direction of the print on Synergistic fuses does indicate the direction (at least it sounds better to me). The same goes for Furutech fuses. Of course, Hi-Fi Tuning and Isoclean already have a directional arrow printed on the fuse. I have found that when the fuse is placed in the opposite of the preferred direction, the midrange has a weak / hollow sound to it and the overall sound does not have as much impact.
The Audio Magic fuses are just the stock "Little Fuse" brand. They are decent industry stock fuses, but nothing special (like $4 a fuse). Audio Magic drills and fills the fuse with an anti-vibration solution, which acts to reduce electrical resonances. Resonance definitely plays a part in sound quality, but I have never tried an Audio Magic. Also the Little Fuse wire element is nothing special (just tinned copper at best). These were just too expensive for me to audition.
In my opinion, the choice of fuse really has to do with what direction you want to take your NAD. From what I have read, NAD equipment can be very warm sounding. This can come across as somewhat muddy or slow (similar to tube). If you want to make the NAD more clear sounding and quicker/tighter, then I would look at the Synergistic SR20 or the Furutech. The Furutech is the "fastest" sounding fuse I have tried. It will really increase the punch, authority, clarity, and cleanliness of the sound. The SR20 is the second most fastest fuse.
SR RED is probably the most non-intrusive fuse I have found. It will make every piece of equipment sound "ok", but it doesn't make it "sing" (I think you actually lose some resolution with SR RED). My experience with Hi-Fi Tuning Gold put a metallic etch on the sound. I have not tried other Hi-Fi Tuning fuses or SR BLACK.
My favorite fuse is the Isoclean, which is also the cheapest. It is great for solving problems with very bright "solid state" type equipment. It adds a fullness and level of warmth to the sound and takes away a lot of the brightness problems. The Isoclean works wonders in my equipment, but I use very strong and bright "solid state" style equipment (such as Krell, Bryston, Emotiva). I have found the Furutech and SR20 fuses do not actually work out as well in this type of equipment because they make the equipment too "solid state".
Depends on where you want to go. You can get Isoclean on ebay for $30 direct from China, and I'm sure it will improve things, but the Isoclean may not be fast enough for your tastes and equipment.
Al, have I fallen for a SR marketing trick? Their website states repetitively "... By applying a two million volt signal to a cable at a specific pulse modulation, and ultra high frequency for an exact duration of time, we transform the entire cable at a molecular level through a process we call Quantum Tunneling...."
FYI I was part of the AP/MTT chapter and worked for a large telecom equipment manufacturer so no high voltage experience. I did had fun with Microwave oven trafo powered arcing in labs though...
Jazzonthehudson 4-29-2016
Have you experimented with superhigh voltage to create that tunneling effect in cables?
No, I haven't. My background is in analog and digital circuit design involving conventional voltages.
BTW, as I mentioned a while back in one of the other fuse threads, Wikipedia writeups dealing with quantum tunnelling make no mention of ultra-high voltages:
"This was the first thing that came up when I googled it: I saw that too. That's an organization, not a field of endeavor like mechanical or electrical engineering"
Al, thanks for the info, I got most of the manuals there at hifiengine and in this case, got the service manual directly from a good source at NAD. I try to have service manuals / schematics of most of my gear, primarily to understand where they come from design wise. Most tech departments understand why I wanted it and provide the info easily. If the manufacturer remains stubborn, sites like DIYaudio and others may shed a light.
A side question: I enjoy the zapped products from SR: fuses, wall sockets (though Furutech GTX- D(r) remain my reference, havent tried the new NCF version) , etc. Have you experimented with superhigh voltage to create that tunneling effect in cables?
For others that feel "attracted": I have been using HFC cables for many years with pretty good results. I have stalled in my quest to create my own magnet cable (just for fun) as I can't find a suitable ready-made conductor cable, would be helpful for any practical hints.
JazzontheHudson, while you're probably already aware of this you can download a pdf of the service manual for the M25 via the following link, if you first complete a simple registration process at hifiengine.com:
In addition to the schematic you mentioned having, the manual includes printed circuit board layout diagrams and other information that might be helpful.
Thanks very much, btw, to you and Charles for the nice words.
"Geoff, I didn’t intend to imply that the SR fuse lettering suggested current flow, rather that this is the orientation providing the best sound quality consistently in my components. Charles,"
Hi, Charles, can I respectfully suggest you re-read what I wrote? Also re-read what Ted from SR wrote. There appears to be no consistency from fuse to fuse regarding lettering or indication of direction. So you can't go by the lettering without trying both ways.
Geoff, I didn't intend to imply that the SR fuse lettering suggested current flow, rather that this is the orientation providing the best sound quality consistently in my components. Charles,
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