I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner.
Furthermore, if you are suggesting soldering wires directly to fuses in lieu of using holders I would wonder if the heat that is applied to the two ends of the fuses during the soldering process might change their characteristics sufficiently to invalidate the results, and/or might shorten the lifespan of these often expensive fuses.
Finally, my suspicion is that underlying your response to my suggestion is the goal of attacking my advocacy of thoroughness in the investigation of the causes of seemingly implausible and/or unexplainable tweaks by suggesting that the rationale underlying my proposed methodology suggests going to extremes, extremes that I however would consider unnecessary. It comes down to a matter of judgment, judgment that is hopefully as informed as possible, and as I say I would draw the line at what I originally suggested. I’m sure, though, that YMWV ("Your Mileage Will Vary").
I have nothing further to say on the subject.
Regards,
-- Al
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atmasphere
4,819 posts
05-24-2016 4:54pm
Geoffkait: "I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement."
To which Atmasphere responded,
"I’m chalking this one to not having read my last post."
I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something? If so, what? Did you read my post suggesting not using the fuse holder in the experiment? Don't you agree that's the best way to get to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue.
cheers
|
I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse
holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether
or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of
directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses
are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement. I'm chalking this one to not having read my last post. |
jazzonthehudson OP
254 posts
05-23-2016 8:23pm
"My experience tells me differently. Before I insert after market fuses, I clean the contacts - as all contacts - if they look clean, with Gold DeoxIT, otherwise first with silver polish, then DeoxIT. I always reverse back the direction to ensure my findings are consistent.
Whenever possible, double blind tests are conducted by wrapping Teflon around the fuses."
Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.
cheers,
geoff kait
machina dynamica
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Thanks Jazz and Al,
So much for that avenue of thought. :-) |
Would the imprint on the side of the cap diminish the contact area enough to degrade the sound and could it be that by rotating or reversing the fuse has the potential to align things in the most desirable manner? Hi Nonoise, I suspect that the significance, if any, of the positioning of the imprint on the sonics of a component could only be determined experimentally. And I would expect that significance, if any, to certainly vary widely among components that perform different functions and that are different specific designs. Just as different designs will vary in their sensitivity to the much larger differences in line voltage that occur from location to location, and in many cases from time to time at a given location. The presence or absence of internal voltage regulation (most power amp designs have unregulated power supplies, in contrast to most line-level components), and the efficacy of that regulation if present, being just one of a great many design-related factors contributing to that variation. Also, would this be akin to the "eddy effect" that connectors encounter? What I am envisioning, and what I believe Ralph was referring to, are simply differences in the very small amounts of resistance that may exist between a fuse and the contacts on its holder. Not sure that eddy currents have relevance in this context. Best regards, -- Al |
My experience tells me differently. Before I insert after market fuses, I clean the contacts - as all contacts - if they look clean, with Gold DeoxIT, otherwise first with silver polish, then DeoxIT. I always reverse back the direction to ensure my findings are consistent.
Whenever possible, double blind tests are conducted by wrapping Teflon around the fuses. |
Rotating the fuse in the fuse holder makes for an interesting point.
PADIS fuses don’t imprint on the side of the caps so the contact surface is constant and as complete as possible. Would the imprint on the side of the cap diminish the contact area enough to degrade the sound and could it be that by rotating or reversing the fuse has the potential to align things in the most desirable manner? There is enough space between the lettering on the cap sides to ensure better contact with other fuses.
Also, would this be akin to the "eddy effect" that connectors encounter?
All the best,Nonoise |
atmasphere
4,816 posts
05-23-2016 6:07pm
Geoffkait: Al, if you (and Atmasphere) really were thorough you would simply eliminate the fuse holder entirely, no?
No. That would never meet UL, CE or other directives.
I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement.
cheers
|
Al, if you (and Atmasphere) really were thorough you would simply eliminate the fuse holder entirely, no? No. That would never meet UL, CE or other directives. |
almarg
6,392 posts
05-23-2016 5:32pm
Geoffkait: Are you suggesting that you have done the experiment with the same "thoroughness" you demand of others?
"No, Geoff, I’m not. I didn’t say that, and I didn’t mean that.
As you probably realize I haven’t done the experiment at all. But if I did choose to do it, I would do it with the thoroughness I described."
Al, if you (and Atmasphere) really were thorough you would simply eliminate the fuse holder entirely, no?
cheers, geoff
|
Are you suggesting that you have done the experiment with the same "thoroughness" you demand of others?
No, Geoff, I’m not. I didn’t say that, and I didn’t mean that. As you probably realize I haven’t done the experiment at all. But if I did choose to do it, I would do it with the thoroughness I described. Regards, -- Al |
Al wrote,
"Not sure if anyone here has been that thorough, but it seems to me that the less likely and the less explainable a perceived effect would seem to be, the greater the degree of thoroughness that is called for before reaching a conclusion as to its cause."
Are you suggesting that you have done the experiment with the same "thoroughness" you demand of others? Put another way, it almost sounds like you’re saying if someone's results don’t corroborate your theory then he must have done the experiment wrong. How convenient.
Cheers |
Sounds right to me, Ralph (Atmasphere). I’ve made similar points in some of the other fuse-related threads. I’ve also suggested at times that before reaching conclusions about the matter that people reverse and re-reverse the direction of the fuse a couple of times or more, to verify that their findings are repeatable. While also assuring that the equipment is in equal states of warmup as the comparisons are made.
Not sure if anyone here has been that thorough, but it seems to me that the less likely and the less explainable a perceived effect would seem to be, the greater the degree of thoroughness that is called for before reaching a conclusion as to its cause.
One additional point that occurs to me, though, is that if the AC voltage at a particular location is significantly on the high side, and therefore presumably higher than the voltage that was assumed and used in the design and test of a component, minimum voltage drop across the fuse holder could conceivably degrade the sound to a slight degree, rather than enhancing it. Depending on the specific design, of course.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
If y'all are interested, I think I've sorted out what this reversal phenomena is all about.
It has to do with the fact that the connections on fuse holders are not perfect. The act of reversing the fuse sometimes gets you a better connection. However, directionality really isn't the issue. Similar to a power switch, the contact area of the fuse holder that is actually doing the work is a fraction of the total contact area. As a result, if you simply rotate the fuse in its holder, you will find that there is a best position where more of the fuse holder contact area is touching the fuse contacts. When the fuse was reversed, on occasion you got better contact or worse contact, which appears initially to be a directional issue, but that is really an illusion.
Interestingly, this effect is measurable as a voltage drop across the fuse holder. As you might expect, the less voltage drop the better. So it is possible to adjust (rotate) the fuse in the holder for minimum voltage drop and thus the best performance. A side benefit is the fuse will last a little longer as the operating temperature is reduced.
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danvignau, have you tried after market fuses at all? You may want to try some and do more about power conditioning. Referring to your post there, big caps is just quantity, not quality. |
Look, another flatearther! |
Since my head amp inverts the signal, should I just rotate the fuses in my amp and drill a hole to attach my volume knob backwards on the shaft, or maybe just do one of the above? TeeHee |
pc123v, the AMR aka LittleFuse has a deficit on the highs, they represent excellent value for subwoofers.
The link that nonoise provided reflects my experience with HiFiTuning, SR Red, etc. IME the best value should be the Furutech (I am in the process to check if the PADIS is an OEM version of it) or SR Red on the used market, much better than these two is the Audio Magic Platinum.
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AMR gold fuses vs....the rest.
I have asked this question months ago. Since then, there have been a some new players and new offerings from existing manufacturers. Looking for feedback on how the rest of the field stack up against the AMR. Seeking something richer, fuller with a smoother recessed top end, i.e. "pearshaped". |
Psst wrote,
"I’m a believer--that ’Stevecham’s’ post is the most valuable. I wonder how many "get" the "virtually incalculable" figures he’s so elegantly stated."
I’m a math major. Just by blind luck half the new fuses will be in the correct direction before he gets down to evaluating them. That leaves approximately according to my calculations only 9 or so to correct. You just listen to each one and move to the next one. I could do it in half and hour. It’s "incalculable" only to an English Major. No offense to Stevecham, naturally. I will grant you it definitely helps to know what a fuse in the correct direction sounds like.
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I wondered about 19 fuses as well. The whole exercise seems a bit absurd to me, but the only thing that matters I suppose is if the guy undertaking it believes it to be worthwhile. We all do what we choose to do for whatever reason we choose, one way or another.
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I also wonder why any well engineered home audio product would require 19 fuses? |
I'm a believer--that 'Stevecham's' post is the most valuable. I wonder how many "get" the "virtually incalculable" figures he's so elegantly stated. For those for whom it is beneficial ; a parallel may be to suggest that a morning swim can be beneficial-but-- ,hears the catch, to benefit requires that you swim the Atlantic ocean every day; across and back. Any swimmers herein? |
David, "crispser and fresher" just about sums it up. The clarity took a bit of getting used to. It only goes to show that whatever it is that builds up does so very gradually so as to go unnoticed until it's gone. Then a kind of stark reality sets in.
I'll take a look at that Fry Corder as well. Thanks.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Also I hope you will read up and investigate Jim Hagerman's Fry Corder. I have one and use it. Definitely freshens up the system.
David Pritchard |
nonoise:
I have the Isotek CD system conditioner. These type CD's work. The system sounds crisper - fresher-more alive. I use it once a week.
Helps car CD players and Blue Ray players also.
David Pritchard |
Just wanted to say that after ordering the Ayre Enhancement Test CD I poked around and found an old Stereophile CD and played the test tones and pink noise and boy oh boy did it wake up my system. The CD only had a 1Khz test tone and the rest were 200 Hz and down to 20Hz but with that and the pink noise it did something and did it well. It's like it blew all the grunge out of my system. I can't wait for the Ayre Test CD and it's full spectrum sweep and other test tones to see what it does.
I've read where people use it once a week or at least once a month and now I'm a believer in it's efficacy. I can't say whether it negates built up magnetism or whatever but it works. Talk about simple remedies.
All the best,
Nonoise |
If downsizing don't underestimate the potential of newer Bluetooth speakers and systems as well. |
When downsizing I found a second system based on a premium headphone (such as the Sennheiser 800) and a dedicated headphone amp to be a source of great pleasure. The degree of progress in headphone systems over the past 7 years has been staggering and worth exploring. David Pritchard |
Nonoise, thanks for the links. I just contacted PADIS in Germany and will report back.
Al, as always, I appreciate your input and great to point out to put things in proper perspective, which I always try to do at the end. The rationale for pimping my M25 is to get my home theater system closer to my main system (both have Dunlavy/Duntech speakers). Next year, when junior is out of the house, we will relocate as our property tax is very high, thereby very likely downsizing from 3 to 2 audio systems. I tried my HT system with expensive HFC cabling and it sounded terrific, but not for my wallet’s liking to keep HFC both in the main and HT system. So for the M25 I will just upgrade the 3 main channel fuses and the main fuse, the rest will get the AMR/Little Fuse upgrade. The processor gets 2 new fuses as well.
As for the best value/money, my home office setup beats all but then again, sometimes one needs a bit higher SQ. |
Thanks Geoff. Your mention of the XLO Breakin Test CD reminded me that I need to get one of those for regular maintenance. Audio Advisor and Music Direct both have the Ayre Test CD so I think I'll give them a look.
All the best,
Nonoise |
nonoise
2,177 posts
05-13-2016 2:34pm
"Thanks Geoff but that does sound daunting.
If anyone cares to look at my above post there’s a link at the beginning of the first sentence that’s partially obscured by the blue background. In it, is a short review on about 11 fuses and how they sound to the reviewer."
I would prefer if possible to get the full Monty report with at least 100 hrs of break in for each fuse. 18 hours on a break in device seems way not long enough. I maintain that you can’t tell if the deficiencies Eric reports are real or if they’re simply the result of insufficient break in. I would prefer the BREAK IN track on the XLO Test CD played on REPEAT for say two weeks. I also would have preferred to see at least the SR Red Fuse in the mix not to mention the Black Fuse. Also the Audio Magic Beeswax fuse or at least the AM Super Nano fuse. And the Isoclean fuse. If you want a super cost effective fuse just try flipping a LITTELFUSE fuse or ANY stock fuse and see if that works.
Addendum: at least Eric tried and for that he is to be commended. I also happen to agree with Eric that the diode symbol on the HiFi Tuning fuses is not intended to show the correct direction the fuse is to be inserted, only to provide cosmetic asymmetry to the fuse so you don’t lose track of it’s direction when flipping it.
Cheers
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Thanks Geoff but that does sound daunting. If anyone cares to look at my above post there's a link at the beginning of the first sentence that's partially obscured by the blue background. In it, is a short review on about 11 fuses and how they sound to the reviewer. The fuse I'm curious about is the PADIS fuse. They are UL listed as well as having PSE and SEMKO certification. They're made in Germany and for one purpose only: audio. They also make fuses for another "audio" brand (looks like Furutech) and retail for about $25. You can get these Padis fuses on ebay. The price seems very reasonable and they don't garner the hype and ensuing controversy that other fused have endured and seem to meet and exceed all the criteria of the naysayers. Does anyone here have any experience with this brand? All the best, Nonoise |
nonoise
2,176 posts
05-12-2016 9:10pm
"Lots of Fuses reviewed here and some I haven’t heard of. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the ones not discussed here?
And, if so, how they compare?"
Excellent question. It would be an interesting undertaking (no pun intended) to compare say the top five contenders, HiFi Tuning, SR Black, Audio Magic Beeswax fuse, Audio Horizons, Isoclean. Maybe I missed one or two. Anyway, in order to evaluate the fuses properly so that the results are somewhat credible, each fuse would have to be broken in, then it’s correct direction determined. Thus for five fuses I estimate about what 6 months to a year? One assumes the evaluator would have to resign himself to listening to fuses break in for all that time. The only good news is that after all the fuses are broken in it should be an easy task to evaluate them.
Cheers
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Infection 5-12-2016
Geoff, the statement I quoted is from almarg.
Although you omitted the first part of my sentence that you quoted. The full sentence (see my post dated 4-28-2016 on page 1 of this thread) was: Many of those who have extolled the virtues of the fuse upgrades that have been discussed in the other recent threads have expressed the opinion that the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide.
So I was citing the opinions of others, who are experienced with fuse upgrades, which I am not. Also, I have pointed out in many prior threads on various topics that the sonic quality of a system, and its ability to resolve musical detail, do not necessarily go hand in hand with the ability of the system to resolve hardware differences, contrary to what many audiophiles seem to believe. Just to mention one example among countless others that could be cited, lower speaker impedance will tend to make a speaker more resolving of amplifier differences and speaker cable differences, while not necessarily resulting in the speaker being an intrinsically better sonic performer than one having higher impedance. In this particular case, however, and despite the additional fact that I have often emphasized the considerably less than perfect correlation between price and performance in audio, I did feel that there was a substantial chance that the cited opinions could be applicable. As what was being considered was a relatively expensive upgrade of 19 fuses in an amplifier providing **seven** channels of fairly high powered amplification, but which cost just $2500 to $3000 ten years ago. I hope that clarifies the thinking behind my comment that you quoted. Regards, -- Al |
Lots of Fuses reviewed here and some I haven't heard of. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of the ones not discussed here? And, if so, how they compare? All the best, Nonoise |
Geoff, the statement I quoted is from almarg.
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Jazzonthehudson wrote,
"Somehow this thread turns into, similar to some other threads, to the roast of GK...I wonder why..."
I thought I smelled something burning.
|
Somehow this thread turns into, similar to some other threads, to the roast of GK...I wonder why...
Maybe I am not qualified to issue the above statement but I know for one that Ralph (atmasphere) is a competent designer and very knowledgeable person, truly willing to help fellow audiophiles.
Back to fuses: after retesting in different systems (DAC and power amp), I have come to conclusion that the SR Red, whilst very good and indeed way better than SR 20, HiFiTuning Premium, does not provide the best of details/texture whilst the Audio Magic Platinum (direction same as SR although I am not sure they are labeled consistently due to the hand made, lower production rate) provide nearly everything that the SR Red does but sounds with more complex texture, organic and more detailed. Vocals and strings simply sound gorgeous! |
atmasphere
4,804 posts
05-11-2016 5:59pm
Geoffkait: "in fact I was involved at one time with third party testing for VERY big projects, you know Government and Military projects."
to which Atmasphere quipped,
"$2000 hammers?"
Ho, ho, ho. No, it wasn't $10,000 toilet seats, either.
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in fact I was involved at one time with third party testing for VERY big projects, you know Government and Military projects. $2000 hammers? |
infection wrote,
""...the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide."
Forsooth."
I hate to make snap judgements but I’m pretty sure there’s no such thing as an audiophile who believes his system is not one of those highly resolving ones. Really, really highly resolving. Especially if they’ve been an audiophile for 40 years.
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"...the higher the resolution and the quality of the components that are involved, the greater the benefits fuse upgrades are likely to provide."
Forsooth. |
mross1949, I am happy to learn that you tried, reaping the benefits of your experiment. Like with all cables, technological advances leads to better fuses. Too bad that others still reFUSE to try.
“A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.”
- Frank Zappa
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I was certainly a skeptic years ago, when I first tried the old Hi-Fi tuning fuses. Of course, I never expected that they would turn a $20K system into a $50K one and I was not disillusioned: they didn't . But they did make an audible -- and much more significant -- difference than I ever expected they would and I still have them in my equipment today. |
Jea48 wrote,
"geoffkait,
You’re an idiot!"
I didn’t see that coming. Be that as it may that you still haven’t provided a single example of a audio product for which third party testing is required is duly noted.
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geoffkait, You're an idiot! |
That’s all really interesting Jea48 but what’s it have to do with audio or audiophile products? Everyone knows there is *such a thing* as third party testing, in fact I was involved at one time with third party testing for VERY big projects, you know Government and Military projects. But the challenge to you was produce any case of an *audio product* that required or third party testing. And you couldn’t. In fact you didn't understand what the bet was. So I win.
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geoffkrait
Just as I suspected. You can’t.
Ignorance is bliss. Google can be your friend.
Two freebies, no charge.....
Quote:
What is a NRTL?
A Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) is a third-party organisation that certifies products for the North American market.
http://www.tuv-sud.com/activity/product-certification/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratories-nrt...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote:
“Certified” or “Listed” means that:
•
The product has been tested and certified to comply with a product safety standard.
•
The product was tested and certified by an accredited third-party certification agency, also known as:
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)
•The product is listed in the NRTL’s registry of certified products.
•The product manufacturer has license to bear the NRTL’s mark on the certified product.
•Manufacturers can then mass produce that certified product for use in any location.
12
Types of Full Certification: See page 15.
http://iaeisj.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/newjersey_iaei__navigating_the_certification_m...
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