Direction of aftermarket fuses (only for believers!)
It is with reluctance that I start another thread on this topic with the ONLY GOAL for believers to share their experience about aftermarket fuses. To others: you can call us snobs, emperors w/o clothes,... etc but I hope you refrain posting just your opinion here. If you did not hear any difference, great, maybe there isn’t.
The main driver for this new post is that I am starting a project to mod my NAD M25 7 ch amp for my home theater. It has 19 fuses (2 per channel, 4 on the power supply board, 1 main AC) and I will try a mix of AMR Gold, SR Black and Audio Magic Platinum (anyway that is the plan, I may try out some other brands/models). As it is reasonably difficult to change them, esp the ones on each channel module that requires complete disassembly, I would like to know what the direction is for these models mentioned and of course, others who HAVE HEARD there is a difference please share your experience on any fuse model you have tried.
Fuses are IME directional: Isoclean is one of the first to indicate the direction (2008/2009) on their fuses. Users of HiFi Tuning (when the awareness rose quite a bit amongst audiophiles) have mostly heard the difference.
As an IEEE engineer, I was highly skeptical of cabling decades ago (I like the speaker design of John Dunlavy but he said on many occasions that cables nor footers matter at all, WRONG!). Luckily, my curiosity proved me wrong as well. I see the same skepticism that I and many others had about the need for aftermarket cables many, many years ago now on fuses and esp on the direction on fuses.
Another example is the direction of capacitors (I do not mean electrolytic types). Even some manufacturers now and certainly many in the past did not believe it can make a difference sonically. Maybe some do but it takes time in the assembly to sort and put them in the right direction/order (esp as some of the cap manufacturers still do not indicate "polarity") so that maybe is one argument why this is not universally implemented.
nonoise 2,177 posts 05-13-2016 2:34pm "Thanks Geoff but that does sound daunting.
If anyone cares to look at my above post there’s a link at the beginning of the first sentence that’s partially obscured by the blue background. In it, is a short review on about 11 fuses and how they sound to the reviewer."
I would prefer if possible to get the full Monty report with at least 100 hrs of break in for each fuse. 18 hours on a break in device seems way not long enough. I maintain that you can’t tell if the deficiencies Eric reports are real or if they’re simply the result of insufficient break in. I would prefer the BREAK IN track on the XLO Test CD played on REPEAT for say two weeks. I also would have preferred to see at least the SR Red Fuse in the mix not to mention the Black Fuse. Also the Audio Magic Beeswax fuse or at least the AM Super Nano fuse. And the Isoclean fuse. If you want a super cost effective fuse just try flipping a LITTELFUSE fuse or ANY stock fuse and see if that works.
Addendum: at least Eric tried and for that he is to be commended. I also happen to agree with Eric that the diode symbol on the HiFi Tuning fuses is not intended to show the correct direction the fuse is to be inserted, only to provide cosmetic asymmetry to the fuse so you don’t lose track of it’s direction when flipping it.
Thanks Geoff. Your mention of the XLO Breakin Test CD reminded me that I need to get one of those for regular maintenance. Audio Advisor and Music Direct both have the Ayre Test CD so I think I'll give them a look.
Nonoise, thanks for the links. I just contacted PADIS in Germany and will report back.
Al, as always, I appreciate your input and great to point out to put things in proper perspective, which I always try to do at the end. The rationale for pimping my M25 is to get my home theater system closer to my main system (both have Dunlavy/Duntech speakers). Next year, when junior is out of the house, we will relocate as our property tax is very high, thereby very likely downsizing from 3 to 2 audio systems. I tried my HT system with expensive HFC cabling and it sounded terrific, but not for my wallet’s liking to keep HFC both in the main and HT system. So for the M25 I will just upgrade the 3 main channel fuses and the main fuse, the rest will get the AMR/Little Fuse upgrade. The processor gets 2 new fuses as well.
As for the best value/money, my home office setup beats all but then again, sometimes one needs a bit higher SQ.
When downsizing I found a second system based on a premium headphone (such as the Sennheiser 800) and a dedicated headphone amp to be a source of great pleasure.
The degree of progress in headphone systems over the past 7 years has been staggering and worth exploring.
Just wanted to say that after ordering the Ayre Enhancement Test CD I poked around and found an old Stereophile CD and played the test tones and pink noise and boy oh boy did it wake up my system. The CD only had a 1Khz test tone and the rest were 200 Hz and down to 20Hz but with that and the pink noise it did something and did it well. It's like it blew all the grunge out of my system. I can't wait for the Ayre Test CD and it's full spectrum sweep and other test tones to see what it does.
I've read where people use it once a week or at least once a month and now I'm a believer in it's efficacy. I can't say whether it negates built up magnetism or whatever but it works. Talk about simple remedies.
nonoise: I have the Isotek CD system conditioner. These type CD's work. The system sounds crisper - fresher-more alive. I use it once a week. Helps car CD players and Blue Ray players also.
David, "crispser and fresher" just about sums it up. The clarity took a bit of getting used to. It only goes to show that whatever it is that builds up does so very gradually so as to go unnoticed until it's gone. Then a kind of stark reality sets in.
I'll take a look at that Fry Corder as well. Thanks.
I'm a believer--that 'Stevecham's' post is the most valuable. I wonder how many "get" the "virtually incalculable" figures he's so elegantly stated. For those for whom it is beneficial ; a parallel may be to suggest that a morning swim can be beneficial-but-- ,hears the catch, to benefit requires that you swim the Atlantic ocean every day; across and back. Any swimmers herein?
The whole exercise seems a bit absurd to me, but the only thing that matters I suppose is if the guy undertaking it believes it to be worthwhile. We all do what we choose to do for whatever reason we choose, one way or another.
"I’m a believer--that ’Stevecham’s’ post is the most valuable. I wonder how many "get" the "virtually incalculable" figures he’s so elegantly stated."
I’m a math major. Just by blind luck half the new fuses will be in the correct direction before he gets down to evaluating them. That leaves approximately according to my calculations only 9 or so to correct. You just listen to each one and move to the next one. I could do it in half and hour. It’s "incalculable" only to an English Major. No offense to Stevecham, naturally. I will grant you it definitely helps to know what a fuse in the correct direction sounds like.
I have asked this question months ago. Since then, there have been a some new players and new offerings from existing manufacturers. Looking for feedback on how the rest of the field stack up against the AMR. Seeking something richer, fuller with a smoother recessed top end, i.e. "pearshaped".
pc123v, the AMR aka LittleFuse has a deficit on the highs, they represent excellent value for subwoofers.
The link that nonoise provided reflects my experience with HiFiTuning, SR Red, etc. IME the best value should be the Furutech (I am in the process to check if the PADIS is an OEM version of it) or SR Red on the used market, much better than these two is the Audio Magic Platinum.
Since my head amp inverts the signal, should I just rotate the fuses in my amp and drill a hole to attach my volume knob backwards on the shaft, or maybe just do one of the above? TeeHee
danvignau, have you tried after market fuses at all? You may want to try some and do more about power conditioning. Referring to your post there, big caps is just quantity, not quality.
If y'all are interested, I think I've sorted out what this reversal phenomena is all about.
It has to do with the fact that the connections on fuse holders are not perfect. The act of reversing the fuse sometimes gets you a better connection. However, directionality really isn't the issue. Similar to a power switch, the contact area of the fuse holder that is actually doing the work is a fraction of the total contact area. As a result, if you simply rotate the fuse in its holder, you will find that there is a best position where more of the fuse holder contact area is touching the fuse contacts. When the fuse was reversed, on occasion you got better contact or worse contact, which appears initially to be a directional issue, but that is really an illusion.
Interestingly, this effect is measurable as a voltage drop across the fuse holder. As you might expect, the less voltage drop the better. So it is possible to adjust (rotate) the fuse in the holder for minimum voltage drop and thus the best performance. A side benefit is the fuse will last a little longer as the operating temperature is reduced.
Sounds right to me, Ralph (Atmasphere). I’ve made similar points in some of the other fuse-related threads. I’ve also suggested at times that before reaching conclusions about the matter that people reverse and re-reverse the direction of the fuse a couple of times or more, to verify that their findings are repeatable. While also assuring that the equipment is in equal states of warmup as the comparisons are made.
Not sure if anyone here has been that thorough, but it seems to me that the less likely and the less explainable a perceived effect would seem to be, the greater the degree of thoroughness that is called for before reaching a conclusion as to its cause.
One additional point that occurs to me, though, is that if the AC voltage at a particular location is significantly on the high side, and therefore presumably higher than the voltage that was assumed and used in the design and test of a component, minimum voltage drop across the fuse holder could conceivably degrade the sound to a slight degree, rather than enhancing it. Depending on the specific design, of course.
"Not sure if anyone here has been that thorough, but it seems to me that the less likely and the less explainable a perceived effect would seem to be, the greater the degree of thoroughness that is called for before reaching a conclusion as to its cause."
Are you suggesting that you have done the experiment with the same "thoroughness" you demand of others? Put another way, it almost sounds like you’re saying if someone's results don’t corroborate your theory then he must have done the experiment wrong. How convenient.
almarg 6,392 posts 05-23-2016 5:32pm Geoffkait: Are you suggesting that you have done the experiment with the same "thoroughness" you demand of others?
"No, Geoff, I’m not. I didn’t say that, and I didn’t mean that.
As you probably realize I haven’t done the experiment at all. But if I did choose to do it, I would do it with the thoroughness I described."
Al, if you (and Atmasphere) really were thorough you would simply eliminate the fuse holder entirely, no?
atmasphere 4,816 posts 05-23-2016 6:07pm Geoffkait: Al, if you (and Atmasphere) really were thorough you would simply eliminate the fuse holder entirely, no?
No. That would never meet UL, CE or other directives.
I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement.
Rotating the fuse in the fuse holder makes for an interesting point.
PADIS fuses don’t imprint on the side of the caps so the contact surface is constant and as complete as possible. Would the imprint on the side of the cap diminish the contact area enough to degrade the sound and could it be that by rotating or reversing the fuse has the potential to align things in the most desirable manner? There is enough space between the lettering on the cap sides to ensure better contact with other fuses.
Also, would this be akin to the "eddy effect" that connectors encounter?
My experience tells me differently. Before I insert after market fuses, I clean the contacts - as all contacts - if they look clean, with Gold DeoxIT, otherwise first with silver polish, then DeoxIT. I always reverse back the direction to ensure my findings are consistent. Whenever possible, double blind tests are conducted by wrapping Teflon around the fuses.
Would the imprint on the side of the cap diminish the contact area enough to degrade the sound and could it be that by rotating or reversing the fuse has the potential to align things in the most desirable manner?
Hi Nonoise,
I suspect that the significance, if any, of the positioning of the imprint on the sonics of a component could only be determined experimentally. And I would expect that significance, if any, to certainly vary widely among components that perform different functions and that are different specific designs. Just as different designs will vary in their sensitivity to the much larger differences in line voltage that occur from location to location, and in many cases from time to time at a given location. The presence or absence of internal voltage regulation (most power amp designs have unregulated power supplies, in contrast to most line-level components), and the efficacy of that regulation if present, being just one of a great many design-related factors contributing to that variation.
Also, would this be akin to the "eddy effect" that connectors encounter?
What I am envisioning, and what I believe Ralph was referring to, are simply differences in the very small amounts of resistance that may exist between a fuse and the contacts on its holder. Not sure that eddy currents have relevance in this context.
jazzonthehudson OP 254 posts 05-23-2016 8:23pm "My experience tells me differently. Before I insert after market fuses, I clean the contacts - as all contacts - if they look clean, with Gold DeoxIT, otherwise first with silver polish, then DeoxIT. I always reverse back the direction to ensure my findings are consistent.
Whenever possible, double blind tests are conducted by wrapping Teflon around the fuses."
Right, and the use of paste type contact enhancers such as Quicksilver Gold (pure silver spiked with gold) ensures a consistent and thorough contact of the fuse end caps with the fuse holder. And guess what? The fuses are still directional. Is this a good time to mention the elephant in the room - wire directionality? Not just fuse directionality, but directionality of interconnects, speaker cables, the wire in transformers, the wire in capacitors, internal wiring in electronics, the wiring in speakers and speaker crossovers, you name it. And power cords - even though they are in an AC circuit. Perhaps even RCA connectors and other stamped, rolled or drawn metal used in electonics. Maybe even fuse holders, though not for the reason suggested yesterday.
I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse
holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether
or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of
directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses
are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement.
I'm chalking this one to not having read my last post.
atmasphere 4,819 posts 05-24-2016 4:54pm Geoffkait: "I meant if you wanted to get to the truth you would eliminate the fuse holder from the equation. You know, for the experiment. Capish? Whether or not aftermarket fuses meet UL, etc. is irrelevant to the question of directionality. You don’t really think audiophiles care if their fuses are UL listed, do you?
UL is a directive? You make it sound like a requirement."
To which Atmasphere responded,
"I’m chalking this one to not having read my last post."
I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something? If so, what? Did you read my post suggesting not using the fuse holder in the experiment? Don't you agree that's the best way to get to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue.
I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner.
Furthermore, if you are suggesting soldering wires directly to fuses in lieu of using holders I would wonder if the heat that is applied to the two ends of the fuses during the soldering process might change their characteristics sufficiently to invalidate the results, and/or might shorten the lifespan of these often expensive fuses.
Finally, my suspicion is that underlying your response to my suggestion is the goal of attacking my advocacy of thoroughness in the investigation of the causes of seemingly implausible and/or unexplainable tweaks by suggesting that the rationale underlying my proposed methodology suggests going to extremes, extremes that I however would consider unnecessary. It comes down to a matter of judgment, judgment that is hopefully as informed as possible, and as I say I would draw the line at what I originally suggested. I’m sure, though, that YMWV ("Your Mileage Will Vary").
almarg 6,398 posts 05-24-2016 10:41pm "I would think that it is not necessary to start modifying hardware and perhaps invalidating warranties in the process of getting to the bottom of the fuse directionality issue. IMO the methodology I suggested earlier should suffice, if done in an honest and careful manner."
Huh? I’m not suggesting that anyone modify hardware or invalidate warranties or any such thing. I’m just saying that you can eliminate the variable of the fuse holder by eliminating it from the test. I’m referring to an independent third party tester. That would be an honest and careful manner, no? Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell. The method you suggested earlier actually doesn’t suffice since some people will jump to the conclusion that it’s the fuse holder that’s directional, not the fuse itself.
I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something?
As far as I can tell, you misinterpret on purpose. That makes it hard to have a conversation. Example:
Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results
you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell.
Al does not insinuate. You are one of the very few I have ever seen to attack Al, who IMO and that of many others is an important asset to this site. You might consider ratcheting down the rhetoric.
And what recognized industry third party would that be?
Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory.
jea48 2,072 posts 05-25-2016 1:07pm "And what recognized industry third party would that be?
Better yet. I am not disputing whether a fuse is directional or not. I believe many that have actually taken the time and tested it for themselves. BUT, with that said can you furnish anything that proves a fuse is directional? Not from a manufacture of audio grade fuses, but rather from an industry independent third party testing laboratory."
The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester. You probably didn’t realize that. You say you believe many people have taken the time to test directionality. One assumes you’re referring to listening tests. The biggest skeptics of aftermarket fuses don’t even do that. Ah, the academic ivory tower.
As for independent third party tester it could be UL. I personally doubt UL would take the job. It could be someone else, some other organization or even individual. I actually don’t think measuring voltage drops or whatever across a fuse requires a rocket scientist. Maybe you can contact NASA or NIST or MIT and see if they are interested. Lol
The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.
For Fuse directionality?
If it would not be too much of an inconvenience could you produce a web link of the test from the actual independent testing laboratory. Please include certification of the testing lab.
Again for all others reading this thread I do not dispute whether fuses are directional or not. I personally have not experimented for myself. I do respect the findings of others that have. Until proven otherwise I take the word of those that say fuses are directional.
The question posed to geoffkait is to produce actually proof that a fuse is directional. So far he has not.
jea48 2,074 posts 05-25-2016 2:18pm Geoffkait: The HiFi Tuning fuse measurements that are provided in data sheets on their website were obtained by an independent third party tester.
to which Jea48 responded,
"For Fuse directionality?"
For fuse directionality and other stuff. Even fuse directionality for AC circuits.
jea48 then asked,
"If it would not be too much of an inconvenience could you produce a web link of the test from the actual independent testing laboratory. Please include certification of the testing lab."
What about this? What about that? What about this? I’ve posted the link a bunch, so has Al. Try the search function. I don’t like to judge these things too harshly but it appears a little due diligence on your end might be advantageous.
jea48 then wrote,
"Again for all others reading this thread I do not dispute whether fuses are directional or not. I personally have not experimented for myself. I do respect the findings of others that have. Until proven otherwise I take the word of those that say fuses are directional."
That is very accommodating of you.
Then jea48 has the nerve to make the comment,
"The question posed to geoffkait is to produce actually proof that a fuse is directional. So far he has not."
So, you believe what everyone says about directionality of fuses without proof. But you hold my feet to the fire? I’m afraid that’s not logical. Don’t you know it’s not proper protocol to demand proof. Besides, I gave up trying to convince die hard skeptics a long time ago.
Geoffkait:I read your last post. I read your last two posts. Did I err? Did I misinterpret something?
to which Atmasphere replied,
"As far as I can tell, you misinterpret on purpose. That makes it hard to have a conversation. Example:
Geoffkait: Or maybe you’re insinuating that any person who doesn’t get the results you’re looking for isn’t honest and careful, it’s hard to tell."
Unfortunately the example you provided has nothing to do with what we’re actually talking about, which is YOUR last two posts and if I had misinterpreted something you said. You have deftly avoided answering my question, instead deciding for some bizarre reason to quote my response to Al on a an entirely different issue. In any case, just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard. In other words, there is nothing preventing an audiophile from using non UL listed fuses. Audiophiles are not directed or required to use UL listed fuses. In the Government, for example, if the Government specifies that a certain standard is required by the contractor then the standard is required. Otherwise the particular standard is NOT required. End of story.
Then Atmasphere opined,
"Al does not insinuate. You are one of the very few I have ever seen to attack Al, who IMO and that of many others is an important asset to this site. You might consider ratcheting down the rhetoric."
The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder altogether. I don’t see any reasonable refutation of that approach from either you or Al on that point, just a lot of who shot John.
just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard.
I did not state that it was. I did state that the CE mark was a directive, and that there are others. You simply chose to misinterpret, as part of your on-going program to make others wrong.
The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not
honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out
that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder
altogether.
Al is not prone to rhetoric. OTOH such seems to be your lifestyle.
A scientific test would not eliminate the fuseholder, not if you actually wanted to know what is going on.
You can’t even provide proof of any credible third party test that fuse directionality is audible.
Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers. Would that meet your obviously high standards?
atmasphere 4,822 posts 05-25-2016 5:29pm Geoffkait: just to set the record straight, UL is not a requirement or a directive, it’s a guideline or standard.
to which Atmasphere replied,
"I did not state that it was. I did state that the CE mark was a directive, and that there are others. You simply chose to misinterpret, as part of your on-going program to make others wrong."
wiggle, wiggle...
then Atmasphere quoted me here,
Geoffkait: The insinuation that tests that don’t get the "right" results are not honest or careful is rhetoric. His rhetoric. I’ve already pointed out that a scientifically correct test would eliminate the fuse holder altogether.
"Al is not prone to rhetoric. OTOH such seems to be your lifestyle."
What exactly are you insinuating?
atmasphere closed with this comment,
"A scientific test would not eliminate the fuseholder, not if you actually wanted to know what is going on."
You can test the fuse holder separately if you really were interested in arriving at the truth. I realize you and Al are just playing Ivory Tower, and have no interest or plan to test either the fuse or the fuse holder. That’s the difference between a Skeptic and a Sceptic.
Why would they test for audibility? They test for measured parameters. Remember? Unless you count audio reviewers. Would that meet your obviously high standards?
So now you are admitting there are not any credible third party tests that prove fuses are directional. Finally!
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