Direct Drive vs. Idler Drive vs. Belt drive
Mike, you really need to get a Reed 5T and tell us how you like it. If I had $20K disposable now I would go for it.Mik in the UK has one and likes it a lot, but prefers the CS Port Linear tracker......which i love. so not in the market for a different linear tracker. and the Reed is very expensive. for a pivoted arm, my favorite is the gimbal bearing Durand Tosca (similar to the SAT).....which is on my Saskia. best pivoted arm i’ve heard. |
Who exactly is trialling tts w the same carts? I can’t think of anyone trying out tts in a retail store and moving the same cart from one tt to the next. Can’t remember when i was buying a turntable in retail store, probably in 1998 last time. In the UK, I can count the dealers on one hand who can even fit a cart probably, let alone move it btwn rigs. Is it possible to come with your own cartridge mounted on your own headshell ? Honestly i don’t care about dealers Nope...today you just pick a tt and cart and hope for the best I think. Exactly, normally you’re buying a Drive, Plinth, Tonearm, Headshell, Cartridge ... separately, assembling it yourself and comparing one turntable to another (if you have a few). It’s a part of the hobby, great fun! I have more fun swapping tonearms and cartridges on my Luxman PD-444, because i think the turntable is perfect and it was designed for two tonearms with armboards that are so easy to adjust for any PS distance quickly. Clever design, very user friendly! Denon DP-80 is another story. As you can see turntables are 40 years old, so no retail store needed to buy them online. |
Dear @spiritofmusic : ""
I can't think of anyone trying out tts in a retail store and moving the same cart from one tt to the next...""" me neither but when you own two different TT/tonearms you can make comparison of a cartridge performance with each of those TT/tonearms. According the ML room/system Agon pictures he mounted ( at least pictured. ) the same cartridge with today 2 different TT/tonearms. Again, not at a retail store. R. |
I have to put a word on belt driven tables. The biggest mistake in my eyes is that most TT-builders only use a one sided configuration regarding the motor issue. You need to have at least two motors on both sides to counterbalance the drift of the belt. On smaller tables you might not hear a difference but in the field of excellent High End tables it does! From my three belt driven tables two incorporate a both sided motor design. Just imagine you go for the most expensive TT, the Techdas Zero for 400 K and it does come only with one motor? No one mentioned the vector issue etc. I have now implemented the most expensive tonearm on one of my designs. You may have a look under AudioCirc. best E. |
thuchan, that is a hypothesis that nobody has ever proven, it just seems nice intellectually. The greatest turntable of all time was belt drive with one motor. Everyone who owns a turntable needs to see this brilliant video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM I guarantee this video will change your view of turntables forever. |
The greatest turntable of all time was belt drive with one motor. Everyone who owns a turntable needs to see this brilliant video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM "The greatest turntable of all time" ? Is it a joke or what ? |
Dear @thuchan : In the world of audio nothing is perfect always exist trade-offs. In belt drive TTs as in other TT kind of designs always exist trade-offs where the designer has to make his choices. A single motor per sé has its intrisecal " problems " that can't be avoided and that like it or not affects the whole TT quality performance levels. A second or third aditional motors only puts more " problems " for the quality level performance of that TT that any true advantage. One of my belt drive TT's came with one motor it's the stock way on sale but you can add other two motors so I bougth a second motor and made my in deep evaluation overall process about. At the begining my thoughts were that the second motor was an improvement ( maybe because I bougth it and spend additional money and I was waiting to appeared that " improvement ". ) after the evaluations over 3-4 weeks I took in count that was not a true improvement but only a diferent performance that in some ways degraded a little what I was listenong through it. Yes, those vectors exist in theory but you can't really listen an improvement if you listening to it with no self biasing about. Our brain/attitude on any specific subject has a lot of influence and makes that we go a head with some " mistakes " or alternatives that really does not helps to improve quality performance only a different performance. R. |
One solution to the issue of the side force applied by the belt, when you use a single motor, is to add a capstan or passive pulley 180 degrees opposite from the motor pulley. This will equalize the side forces on the bearing at the expense of reducing the size of the contact patch between belt and platter. I think the Kuzma Reference is designed in this fashion. It also avoids the complications of synchronizing two or more motors, two or more belts, etc. |
chakster, no joke at all. You should review your audio history. The AR XA was a ground breaking turntable. Not only was it less expensive than everything else. It was also better performing and not by a little. It's only over site was the lack of anti skate. It is in the Museum of Fine Art and one of the 10 best turntables of all time according to Absolute Sound. Watch the video and you will never look at an unsuspended turntable again. Room Rumble. Oracle , Basis , SME, SOTA, Techdas and others followed ARs advice. Edgar Villchar was one of the true geniuses of audio, right up there with Edison. At one point he had 33% of the speaker market! Henry Kloss was his partner who later on started KLH. |
At one point the guy who invented the wheel had 100 % of the world supply of wheels. Despite that I don't think we'll see wooden wheels on an F1 car in the future. The first wheel was innovative and rearranged human society, but the wheel has moved on. Things have moved on elsewhere. It is good to honour past achievement. It is also good to honour future refinement. |
No argument theophile. But no where in audio history except Edison was such a big step taken by one guy. Not only did he invent the suspended belt drive turntable but the woofer design used in at least 1/2 the subwoofers and speakers made, The AR 1. He started by cutting up an Electrovoice woofer and making a new spider and surround for it. It worked. AR had 33% of the a very competitive speaker market. He was not the only show in town. |
looscannon The AR XA was a ground breaking turntable. Not only was it less expensive than everything else. It was also better performing and not by a little. It's only over site was the lack of anti skate.The AR turntable was indeed groundbreaking and its three-point suspension design has been widely imitated and refined. But the pickup arm was just awful. AR used somewhat better arms in later iterations of the design, but serious AR 'table owners chose their own. |
By today's standard it is not so hot but back then not bad at all. An SME arm cost twice as much as the whole turntable! If you put anti skating on it along with a real horizontal bearing it would be quite competitive. There are aspects of the XA tonearm's design that are very important. It is a neutral balance design. It's vertical bearing is at record level. It has a very stiff but light head shell (it just happens to look cheap) These aspects of design are critical for the best performance. The Kuzma 4 point arms are designed this way as are the SME and better Origin Live arms. The crazy expensive SAT tonearm's vertical bearing is way up in the air and it is a static balance arm! I don't know about you but I would never consider one even if I had that kind of money. If you don't believe in warp wow raise the back of your arm all the way up, put on a test record with a steady 1000 Hz tone and stick a nickle under the edge of the record. The tone will change very noticeably as the stylus passes the nickle. Now drop your arm so that the vertical bearing is at the level of the record. Very little tone change. IMHO the SAT arm is an extremely well made paper weight. |
Lewm, you are right. 1 motor + passive flywheel on opposite side to nullify any side forces on the bearing. As I do with my original Micro Seiki flywheel. In case of the two motors you need to have an intelligent adjustment incorporated in the motor steering, as VPI or Sterling do. Unfortunately VPI is not producing their SDS steering anymore, but they developed the ADS. p.s. I am wondering why TechDas did not incorporate such a solution, the Apolyt uses an inbuilt passive flywheel best E. |
Gawd- the original AR tt was awful. The motor was underpowered; the speed would oscillate back and forth just by setting the arm on the LP. The foam platter pad was a joke but the suspension and drive really needed it to be light. While the bearing location in the arm was an innovation, it was vastly overshadowed by the simple fact that the arm bearings had slop, making it chatter when anything complex showed up in the musical program. The headshell was plastic and over time wore out (from being installed and removed from the arm tube) or warped as it perished. It was a machine that was cleverly built to a price point, and didn't challenge machines like the Empire 208 that were around at the same time. Given how innovative AR was at the time, its a bit surprising that they chose to under-serve their concepts as presented in this machine. If they had been a bit more aggressive and upscaled it a bit, they would have built a classic. |
Loosecannon, do not understand what your are saying, why more mechanical noise by using a passive flywheel? Can you explain? idler wheel is a great technology but not easy to build and implement. It is much easier to build a „very simple design like the Acoustic Research“ your are promoting. Thorens had similar suspensions as the AR but much better arms. Have you heard an EMT idler wheel (e.g. 279) or the latest Garrard models - all excellent idler wheels! best E. |
chakster, no joke at all. You should review your audio history. The AR XA was a ground breaking turntable. Not only was it less expensive than everything else. It was also better performing and not by a little. It’s only over site was the lack of anti skate. It is in the Museum of Fine Art and one of the 10 best turntables of all time according to Absolute Sound. Looks awful and as Ralph pointed in his post the tonearm is awful. Watch the video and you will never look at an unsuspended turntable again. In fact my Luxman PD-444 is suspended, for the rest of turntables in my arsenal (Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101) i have excellent AT-616 Pneumatic insulators under the plinth. Room Rumble. Oracle , Basis , SME, SOTA, Techdas and others followed ARs advice. Yeah, all those turntables that i don’t like for some reason. |
Very interesting thread--thanks everyone who has participated. For those who wish to explore a newcomer to the idler-type turntable marketplace, I have posted Part 1 of my "review" of the Sempersonus TE-2, TW Acustic Raven 12, Charisma Audio Signature One, WyWires Platinum vinyl playback system over on AC. Hopefully, this link will take you there: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171102.msg1810956#new I hope this helps to sustain the discussion. |
The complete "review" now appears on the AC: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=171102.new#new |
Dear friends: This is something I posted in wbf to a gentleman that was against servos in DD TT because he said that he can hear the damage that servos makes to what he listening through a DD turntables ( as the Technics SP10MK3 or Denon DP100 and the like. ) . Could be interesting to think a little about: """ But things are " critical " for say the least about your " entitled " against servos because the recording LP cutting machines uses DD non-coreless motors as the Technics Sp-02 on the Neumann or the servo controled ( as the Sp-02 ) Parker motor in the Lyrec lathes. In Scully lathes some gentlemans used the MK3 Technics motor. Altivar was other used motor and obviously its own Neumann one and even Denon. So the LPs you listen was recorded with those servos ( not the bidirectional as Denon or JVC and not coreless motors as JVC, Yamaha or Kenwood. ) and even that that kind of " servo intrusion " especially in the low bass range you just can't be aware of it in the BD or idler drive TTs when that " servo intrusion " in case of exist must be appeared any time with any TT spin design, it comes ( according that exist that servo problem. ) rigth from the cutting lathe. So, You can´t be aware of it because just does not exist ( you are not aware of it in BD designs. ) or your room/system has not really and true high resolution. There are no other alternatives down there. Measurements and pure common sense means that your " entitled " servo issue is a misunderstood that you posted and post " over and over through the years. "" Then the LPs are pressed from the cutting lathes that used DD motors with servo control. So why many audiophiles said that through BD/ID TTs the servo " intrusion " does not exist they do not be aware on it when all the LPs where pressed " using servo control motors? Perhaps because what we listen and disturbs to some of us in DD TTs comes not really from the servo control but from other each model design characteristics and not because the servo control. Maybe some of you can share a different point of view on that critical TT issue. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@atmasphere , "Given how innovative AR was at the time, its a bit surprising that they chose to under-serve their concepts as presented in this machine. If they had been a bit more aggressive and upscaled it a bit, they would have built a classic." If only indeed. Nevertheless, the AR turntable was certainly no slouch when it came to performance. I’m guessing that AR didn’t believe there was a market for a more expensive model, given that the AR turntable was all about outstanding value for money. In fact it would take decades before it could be beaten on that score. As for technical improvements, well you know the history. The Thorens TD150, the Ariston RD11 and the Linn LP12 all later tried to improve on the cleverness of the initial design to various degrees of success. On of these days Linn might even admit it, but don’t hold your breath. Now if only AR had taken out a patent.. Anyway here’s a great YouTube video by M. Zillch to enjoy. Audiophile Turntable 101: Acoustic Research AR-XA TESTED https://youtu.be/1rgK0YMsJXM |
I’m guessing that AR didn’t believe there was a market for a more expensive model, given that the AR turntable was all about outstanding value for money. In fact it would take decades before it could be beaten on that score.I not sure I agree with this... budget turntables have always been problematic. Empire was making better machines back in 1961, but they might have cost a little more. Its certainly telling that an Empire goes for more money now than an AR. I think the issue comes down to cost and that AR sort of 'got away with it' when they used a clock motor to run the turntable. Allied used to sell the AR; I had to deal with headshells with stripped cartridge mounting threads, stripped threads for mounting it to the arm tube, warped headshells, perished platter pads (the foam was terrible but the turntable couldn't support anything better); it was annoying that the overhang couldn't be set and the bearings in the arm were pretty cheesy. The platter bearing seemed alright though. If you really want to look at a budget machine that was better at ticking the boxes, perhaps the old Connoisseur BD2 would be a better choice. They didn't have any better bearings, but because they were at a 45 degree angle, the chatter was a bit more bearable if you'll pardon the expression. |
This is something I posted in wbf to a gentleman that was against servos in DD TT because he said that he can hear the damage that servos makes to what he listening through a DD turntables ( as the Technics SP10MK3 or Denon DP100 and the like. ) . Could be interesting to think a little about: Raul, you miss the obvious. The Technics SP02 lathe motor was specficially designed to drive the Neumann lathe with the 70lb Neumann flywheel attached. If you have a low mass platter with direct drive, the speed correction becomes more invasive. With a high mass platter, the inertia and resistance to stylus drag is much higher, and speed correction less invasive. Furthermore, DC motors have zero torque at constant speed. Torque is only generated when speed change is occurring in a DC motor. Therefore DC driven direct drive turntables are just like digital - only a little bit out all of the time. In your typical lightweight platter/DC DD motor, it is most likely the platter is seldom at the correct speed at a micro level. Furthermore speed correction with a DC motor can be scoped - it is a saw tooth trapezoidal recovery ( rough in plain language ) compared to an AC motor recovery which is sinusoidal when scoped ( much smoother and more consonant with music ). By the way, most of the vintage lathes are worm drive. |
Dear @Dover : Agree but that does not means dissapears, only " less invasive ". problem is that we can’t know what that means exactly. In the other side gentlemans ( other than ML. ) that own the Technics MK3 did not posted about " problem " with the servo. I owned the MK2 and never detect it against BD TT neither with my Denon’s and if I rememeber Halcro neither in that specific issue or even lew. What I said is that what we can detect in a DD vs BD/ID TTs couldbe a " trouble " with other kind of DD designs characteristics and not because the servo. R. |
By the way, most of the vintage lathes are worm drive. Furthermore, DC motors have zero torque at constant speed.@dover These two statements are false. I own a Scully lathe which is typical of what was used to make many older recordings. Its not worm drive. It employs a 1/8th horsepower syncronous motor which drives an anti-vibration coupling which then drives a transmission (which allows for shifting from 33 to 45 rpm). The transmission employs bevel gears in an oil bath but no worm drive. Its output is a shaft which drives another vibration isolation coupling; that in turn drives the platter directly, which rests on a set of carefully machined bearings (which require frequent attention). DC motors have torque even at constant speed, so long as there is a load. This link might be helpful: https://www.motioncontroltips.com/torque-equation/ However its a bit of a misnomer to equate a servo controlled multi-pole motor with a simple DC motor, and its also worthy of note that AC motors have a similar property of lockup being the point of highest torque output (as I'm sure you know quite well). I'm guessing that what might have been conflated/misconstrued in your comment above is the fact that when a motor has no load, its **current draw** is its lowest. But I think you'll find that how much torque it has is another matter altogether! Certainly a motor at constant speed will be making torque... Its one thing to 'scope the waveform that is driving the servo operation, its quite another to see how the system responds to that waveform. I very much doubt that the platter speed variation can be represented by a triangle wave! |
Atma-Sphere, I have noticed on several recent re releases and aggravating degree of rumble transferred to the record. I have always assumed this was from poor maintenance of an older lathe. Your last post would confirm this. Does anyone still make lathes? Can you get parts for older lathes and keep them running at spec? Is a high quality modern turntable quieter than a lathe? I think everyone should take a deep breath and put on a record. Between tracks turn up the volume and listen to the noise. What happens to the noise when the music starts. How quiet does the music have to get before you can hear the noise again? I think we can all agree that that background noise is a form of random distortion, probably in the order of 3 to 100% depending on the volume of the music. But, when the music gets loud enough it disappears. Try as hard as you can you can not hear it (unless there is a huge scratch) If you can hear it, it is time to throw that record away and get a new copy. My point in all this is that this noise is several orders of magnitude worse than any aberrations cause by even the least expensive audiophile turntables available today. These discussions are fun and alot of these arguments have merit and may influence your purchasing decisions. The best turntable is always the one you just bought. Why else would you have bought it? In the end speed stability and wow and flutter are trivial issues next to rumble and isolation. How often has someone complained on this web site about wow and flutter? How often does someone complain about their woofers "pumping?" How often do people c/o foot fall skipping? AC motors are king because they auto correct on the run. They will add or subtract torque to maintain whatever frequency they are being fed. As long as that frequency is perfectly stable you are in business. Correction of DC motors always occurs after the fact and is a more complicated endeavor. Can you hear a difference? You can't even hear all that crap underlying the music on your records. |
Can you get parts for older lathes and keep them running at spec? Is a high quality modern turntable quieter than a lathe?With my lathe its helpful knowing a machinist :) No worries keeping it at spec. I think the Technics SP10 Mk3 is in the same ballpark of speed stability; most turntables are not. But the Technics motor was meant for LP mastering anyway. With regards to surface noise I agree most of that is in the groove, not the turntable. The faults of turntables seem to be speed stability (heard as a shimmer in the soundstage; if you get to play reel to reel you'll understand what I mean right away) and resonance in the plinth, tonearm tube and platter. With regards to the platter, it has to be dead, and also control resonance in the LP itself- which is not a trivial matter! While the former seems to be understood in high end machines, the latter seems to get little notice, even though its just as important. The surface noise is mostly an artifact of the pressing plant, although I do notice when the mastering engineer speeds up the cutter threads to cut the leadout grooves at the end of the LP. Otherwise though I simply don't get rumble despite the electronics having full bandwidth to 2 Hz. |
Dear friends : I want to return to that " supposed "/hipothetic DD servo " problem and I want to do it because @mikelavigne was very emphatic about in this thread. This what Mike posted: """ when we consider belts, idlers, and direct drive........2 of those have the choice of no servo’s. i’ve owned a number of top flight direct drive turntables; including the Rockport Sirius III, the SP-10 Mk2 and Mk3, and now the Wave Kinetics NVS for the last 9 years. taken singularly; none of those were obviously lacking in speed solidity and musical flow. but over these last 6-9 months, in direct side by side comparison to the Saskia model two idler, and the CS Port LFT1 Belt drive, neither of which have servo’s......this idea of the human ear hearing the musical cost of feedback is very real. execution of an idler or belt to the degree to take full advantage of the lack of feedback is paramount, but when you do your ’ears’ will thank you. but the separator turns out to be the lack of servo on the belt and idler. i’m drawn to those two emotionally more. now that i’ve lived with those i’m always conscious of that aspect of my NVS direct drive. "" and this my answer I posted to him: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/direct-drive-vs-idler-drive-vs-belt-drive/post?postid=1952212... He in very plite way as usual from himjust tell me he disagree totally with what I posted. In what I posted in wbf things were that the gentleman ( that's an American Sound distributor ) posted there that the only DD he likes is the DP-100 that comes with servo control, this goes against his TT servo " repulsion. ). Today no one can't prove that the servo control in DD TT develops a " problem " that we can hear, not even Mike can do it because he as the wbf gentleman can't listen that hiphotetic problem through their BD/ID units when all the LPs they and we are listening where cutted through DD motors that all were/are speed servo controled . So any trouble about servos must be reflected in the LPs we listen to and this never happens or at least is what Mike shared when listening through his BD/ID units. The information I shared in my last two posts were unknowledge by Mike when he posted about. I don't know with all the evidence in the subject what he could think today and maybe could be interesting for all of us that he can be so gentle to share his opinion even if he could/would confirm what he already posted. Could you?, appreciated. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. Btw, @alexberger in this thread posted: "" Yes, the belt drive have advantage of very low noise. BUT, when you listen an orchestra,on one hand you can listen a 10th violin separately and other small details, but on the other hand the rhythm and flow of music is broken by belt drive momentary speed fluctuations. I think the rhythm accuracy and flow of music is much more important than small details. " Way interesting too. |
rauliruegas This what Mike posted:Not true. There are belt-drive 'tables with servo control, such as the Oracle Delphi III that I once owned. Some SOTAs too, I think. |
"Have the choice of." I did not say all belt drives are not servo controlled. A synchronous motor will fight to follow the frequency it is given. As long as this is accurate the synchronous motor will stay right on unless it's torque rating is overrun which under normal usage is highly unlikely. With the Sotas excepting the Cosmos and Millennium you have the choice. They come standard with a synchronous motor and synthesized power. I would not add the Eclipse package. IMHO it is a waste of money. Spend it on a better cartridge. |
The Saskia is driven from a very complex motor controller that probably synthesizes the AC supplied to the motor, designed and built by Mark Kelly for the Saskia. Mark probably also had a hand in selecting the type of motor (AC synchronous, etc) to be driven by his controller. Maybe Win Tinnon will chime in here. Mijostyn, I wouldn’t be so sure about the value of adding the Eclipse system to a modern day SOTA turntable, unless I had heard an example both ways, playing music with and without the Eclipse. Have you done that? If not, maybe you shouldn't dismiss the Eclipse system so peremptorily. I don’t know how good is the base motor and power supply, so I too cannot say for sure that the Eclipse would improve SQ over the base PS and motor, but I do know that the Phoenix Eagle/Roadrunner system was a very worthwhile addition to my highly modified Lenco, which was beforehand being driven from an expensive "motor controller". The original motor controller was way better than AC from the wall, and the Eagle/Roadrunner was another step up from that. (If you don’t know, the Eagle/Roadrunner form the basis for the Eclipse system as licensed by SOTA, except SOTA add their own special motor to that package.) |
neither the Saskia or CS port have servo controllers for their motors. the Saskia does have an optical reader installed on the plinth in the platter well to allow for a feedback servo to be installed later for that feedback should that be preferred. Win has told me that he has no plans to do that. obviously both my Wave Kinetics direct drive NVS and my direct drive EMT 948 have servos. i view both the Saskia and CS Port as having the most steady tonal solidity of any turntable i have heard. the NVS and EMT are also very fine at that 'steady' and 'solid' type sound. only that the Saskia and CS Port are degrees more grainless and liquid, as well and greater tonal shading and density. |
Dear @mikelavigne and frieds: Mike,with all respect servos per sé are not a devil it does not matters where you use it. For your coments in this thread seems to me that that word over distress you and with out any single reason/facts true3 facts or measured ones. You have a " feeling " about when you said: "" i view both the Saskia and CS Port as having the most steady tonal solidity of any turntable i have heard. the NVS and EMT are also very fine at that ’steady’ and ’solid’ type sound. only that the Saskia and CS Port are degrees more grainless and liquid, as well and greater tonal shading and density "" that’s what you like it and nothing wrong against that but the Saskia and CS Port TTs are both way different whole designs against the @jtinn great NVS DD design, even the CS Port comes with its dedicated LT tonearm. Mike there is no way that those 3 different TT designs can sounds almost the same. Again that " degrees more gainless and liquid " is what you prefer. Now, let me explain something in that overall rectification speed controllers subject including the servo " devil ": exis different kind of servo designs using different " tools "/technologies to do it: cristal quartz look ( that normally we can disengage. ) is one of them and one of the technique used in the vintage DD TT and still today works really fine, there are servos that sense the speed over " thousands " times at each TT rpm and are " there " only when is need it a speed rectification even exist bi-directional servos as in JVC, Yamaha or Denon TTs. Other than TTs subwoofers use servos and as the now defunct Velodyne they did it through an patented accelerometer that sense the wooffer movements over 80K times each second to mantain the THD lower than 0.5% at 20hz at 120db on SPL. Your speakers subs has to have some kind of controller to its low bass range stays with low distortion levels, you can’t avoid it. This is what the motor designer of the Saskia posted: https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1081734&highlight=saskia&r=&se... This was posted by Sakia manufacturer: https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=1117513&highlight=saskia&r=&se... Mike, you said: "" the Saskia does have an optical reader installed ...." I can think that that optical reader is to make speed rectification/corrections when is need it. Same function as any servo speed controller. If you can detect the servo operation then you must detect this kind of rectification no matters what and if you don’t did it then both the servo and the optical controllers has no real/true intrusion in what any one ( including you. ) can listen or that can say exist an " intrusion " because in both cases exist a " change to the TT speed "/a correction to. In 2014 @richardkrebs posted about that optical controller type: """ Dougdeacon said... "No strobe (Timeline or otherwise) operates in short enough increments of time to detect micro-/pico-/nano-second variations. Knowing that a TT is speed stable across a time span of minutes tells us nothing about how stable or unstable it may be across a few thousandths or millionths of a second. Such short-period variations are just as audible and musically important, arguably more so." Brilliant. This is so true. Tonywinsc also touched on the same point. IMO it is the reduction of these tiny speed changes that is one key to a TTs performance. Do we have a way to objectively measure this? Maybe, with some of the new optical speed sensors capable of measuring greater than 1x10^6 counts per rev, but I sure know that we can hear it. """ In the other side and about the CS Port BD TT and only looking at its specs I can say that are really poor against today/vintage top standards in that regards. These are those specs and certainly you must listen to it: "" Crystal follower non-feedback motor drive XFD method. Rotation transmission method Yarn drive (four-wire aramid fiber).Drive motor DC coreless low-noise motor Rotation speed33 1/3 ・ 45rpm (with switch selection and rotation fine adjustment) Rotational speed accuracy±0.3% Wow and flutter: Wow 0.2% Flutter 0.04% or less """ I already posted that I can’t detect any disturbances in what I listened or listen through Denon and Technics top models due to its servo speed controllers. I can’t detect either any " intrusion " by speed motor drive corrections in my BD Acoustic Signature unit where I use as a belt either: aramid fiber thread or silk thread. Btw, I neither detect it speed controller intrusion with my Micro Seiki TT. I have to say that I never had in my system an ID TT. I insist in this " devil " TT subject because as I posted before the servo controllers are the ones used in all recording cutting lathe DD motors and no one can detect till today any trouble because of that in any of his LPs. For me all those means exist no true problems about and certainly no objective facts. I know that for all audiophiles and everywhere, including you, could be really a learning " sessions " that both: @mosin and @jtinn be so kindness to chime about because the issue is way critical. Gentlemans both of you thank’s in advance and appreciated. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @rauliruegas i’m not anti-servo, but appreciate the liquidity and tonal density that absolute steady speed and continueousness can deliver. maybe this explanation will help you to understand what a properly designed non servo turntable can deliver.
my ears tell me it can be better (i prefer it mostly when properly executed) without the servo. but this is not to say that turntables with servo’s are not fantastic at playing our records, they simply are not the pinnacle at steady-ness.......and the benefits that can bring. at modest build levels this theoretical stuff is lost in the execution. it takes fairly heroic design and build efforts to allow non servo to show it’s stuff. |
Dear @mikelavigne : With servo or optical or whatever speed controller we use it happens exactly the same: " but at the micro level, if it rotates or becomes faster, it detects it and slows it, and repeats the operation to make it faster if it gets slower. " The TT platter rotation speed is affected by to many circumstances not only if the motor is DC or AC one and it does not matters the drive kind of design TT has. Some of those circumstances that affects speed stability in the extremely short period of time are: stylus drag at high velocity LP recorded grooves and this could happens any time at any LP surface positions, electrical power source, even some one detected that static developed can impair the function of the speed controllers by million of a second time periods, non perfect flat leveled TT that could affects the platter bearing stability, as the cartridge stylus tip the TT bearing goes degrading through the time, belt degradation, pulleys suffers of that degradation too as the ID internal mechanical parts, even the speed controller has a time degradation too. All those circumstances and many others makes a TT imperfect item suceptible for the speed controller goes in/out trying that the speed stays stable in the very short time. That’s why I ask for mosin/jtinn or any other TT manufacturer in this thread but even if no one can comes the reality is that you can’t detect it those extremely fast speed rectifications because you can’t detect those speed rectifications that were do it for the cutting lathe through his speed servo controllers. The cutting lathe Technics motor ( SP02. ) use the same servo than the SP10MK3 ! ! But all those cutting lathe motors are way vintage designs and even that old speed controllers designs you can’t detect it those servos in any of your LPs played trhough the Saskia or CSPort ! ! You can stay entitled to your way of thinking but it’s only that " a way of thinking " a subjective way and not a true fact/objective because you can’t hear it in any TT drive design at any price levels. Now, it’s not here if you are rigth or wrong but the matters is if really exist what you think or just does not exist as I support. I know very well @lewm and he owns ID and DD different TTs and that I remember he never posted that can detect a problem about but it’s not the only audiophile because there is nothing that proves that non-existent symptom. Other gentleman is @cleeds and I can name you several more including the gentleman you know very well that’s an AS BD all metal design distributor or manufacturer ( I’m not sure about. ), the one I linked the wbf here. Mike, with all respect: as a cartridge or speakers or electronics any TT design is the sum of its parts inside the whole design and you are taking only one part/characteristic/parameter of that whole design where things are that all TT designs, one way or the other, shares in between no matters what. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Mike, I do not think it takes such heroic construction to make a synchronous or three phase motor drive to function at the state of the art. Those of us that do not have the kind of resources you have have a host of choices that also include adequate isolation unlike your Saskia and CS Port turntables which will freely pass on environmental rumble unless you have placed them on an isolation platform, an additional expense. |
@mijostyn, agree completely. i intentionally did not mention dollars, but degree of effort. it’s not trivial to have the right bearing/platter/plinth/motor assembly to get a great result. there are many giant killer turntables. but lots of ordinary ones too. just having a belt or idler and no servo is not sufficient. regarding the CS Port LFT1 it has considerable mass (both plinth and platter) and an air film suspension and air bearing (low flow, low pressure) all contributing to low noise. the Saskia has a 180 pound plinth + 40 pound platter and built in suspension. all that mass in all the right places does help to make it easily the quietest idler i’ve heard. but there are pressings where my active shelf takes the NVS to another level of precision. both the CS Port and Saskia might benefit from a Stacore shelf. i say ’might’ because with isolation you have to try it to know whether it helps. |
@kps25sc no; not done that. would guess that the CS Port, with it’s air bearing and air film, would go on for a while. if/when i do it i will report. don't expect that the Saskia idler would be good at that. as i recall Win said it has some designed in resistance in the bearing. those design subtleties are beyond me. i might have misunderstood. congrats on the Maplenoll tt, not heard one myself but they are legends. |
The CS Port looks like a much better built Maplenoll. Heavy plinth, air bearing, belt drive and integrated air LT arm. Most Maplenoll’s where badly finished, and the pumps where nightmares. High pressure pumps where made out of oil lubricated refrigerator pumps and would leave your listening room smelling like a machine shop. But like old American cars they can be modded into amazing performance, they are simple constructions that work well. |
Is Maplenoll still in Business? MikeL, It all comes down to the resonance frequency of the suspension if it is under 3 Hz both vertically and horizontally you are in business regardless of how you do it. Just mass is not enough. You can have footfall problems with the heaviest of turntables then there is the rumble problem. The only turntable with a true air bearing is the Kuzma Stabi XL DC Air. Because the air bearing is impervious to load it also has what I think is the heaviest platter of any production turntable. The CS port uses air for the thrust bearing only. The rest of the bearing is the typical spindle like the Air Force Tables. The Saskia is interesting because unlike other idler drives it does not use a stepped pulley to control speed. The idler is fixed and the motor speed is changed. Neat. Otherwise it is another mass loaded turntable in need of a suspension. But as you say they are both quiet for you. They could be quieter. But there is a downside to suspending a whole turntable. The whole affair is going to be a bit...bouncy. This might be disturbing to some. I would love to compare a Sota Cosmos with a Schroder CB arm to all these tables. Because the bouncy part is internalized it is easy to use. With the suspension, the magnetic trust bearing and the Eclipse drive I do not think a turntable could get much quieter. The standard drive in the Sapphire and Nova is quite good. The Eclipse is more sophisticated and I am sure it is superior to many drives out there. I would not use the Road Runner as it is a servo mechanism while the Condor is a three phase oscillator controlled drive which will maintain it's speed under any normal circumstance like any synchronous motor. Is there a sonic difference between the Eclipse and the standard Sota drive? I seriously doubt it. Like I said before I would spend the $1K on a better cartridge or tonearm before I spent it on the Eclipse package. |
I think the last Maplenoll’s where made early 90’s, but Lloyd Walker basically copied the Ariadne when he made his original TT. The RoadRunner is a measuring system that can be used independently or together with the Condor, Eagle or Falcon. You can just monitor speed with the RoadRunner or connect to the motor controller and let it do adjustments according to speed variation. I have been told the eclipse package is a substantial upgrade to most AC synchronous TT’s. The more powerful motor combined with the lower vibrations because of the 3 phase controller, is a lifesaver for those pesky low weight small motor suspended turntables like SOTA. But you can not compare the sound to the sound of a heavy plinth, heavy platter air bearing TT with a high power motor, it’s a different ball game. |
Dear @mikelavigne : from several of your post before in this thread it's clear your " preference " for the Saskia/CSPort over the NVS and this is ( again. ) not under questioning in any way. Exist something that in some ways " worry " me and I will try to explain about: Wave Kinetics main works/business/knowledge is about control vibration systems: https://wavekinetics.com/#why https://wavekinetics.com/vibration/ https://wavekinetics.com/the-truth/?doing_wp_cron=1603815532.3626220226287841796875 @jtinn is the owner and decided to design and manufacturer your NVS Reference TT because he is a music lover an an audiophile. it's from there where comes: https://wavekinetics.com/products/nvs-reference/ with out diminish in any way the Saskia/CSPort design and high quality levels in that excecution designs and what just does not makes " click " in my brain is what you, some way or the other posted several times,: " regarding the CS Port LFT1 it has considerable mass (both plinth and platter) and an air film suspension and air bearing (low flow, low pressure) all contributing to low noise. the Saskia has a 180 pound plinth + 40 pound platter and built in suspension. all that mass in all the right places does help to make it easily the quietest idler i’ve heard. " " low noise " and quietest ", DD motors not only are way quietes but with a very high signal to noise ratio as the 96dbs of the SP10MK3 or the over 100dbs figure in the latest Rockport Sirius you owned and the NVS is a DD drive motor and today motors are just excellent against any other design but additional to that WK has a deep knowledge levels in something that's way critical in any TT, TT platter and TT arm board named: VIBRATIONS, developed internal resonances and out side/external isolation. In 2014 Tony posted about TT speed control:: " I believe that listening is the final test in evaluating a system; but I also believe in using measurement tools to reduce time and trials in getting to that final listening test. I put a lot of stock into Dr. Feickert's iPhone app. Use it as a relative tool. I think the frequency measurements are dead on because the app uses the iPhone's internal clock. "" Saskia goes for mass about as CSPort and nothing wrong with that the more expensive TT ( over 600K dollars. ) weigths around 300 kg and its specs are poor as the CSPort I don't know about the Saskia numbers and yes I know what other gentlemans will say: numbers are not important but but the quality of whaT we are listening but when we are talking of this kind of quality levels numbers(specs/ovjective is way important and at least at the same level of our subjective " feelings ". I want to think that the Saskia/CSPort were designed taking in count ( as you said in one of your last posts. ) that platter weigth/material/bearing and the rigth motor torque for that. In 2014 Tony posted on that matters: "" The motor and platter are part of a system. Any one of the two out of balance results in poor performance """ Saskia owner posted about: " I like high mass platters, but where the mass is located is critical, in my opinion. If properly done, the platter can be an extremely important component toward reaching the goal of optimal system inertia. " We can ask: why Saskia over 200kg of " slate " and not a different build material or blend materials and why not 150Kg.? same for the CSPort. NVS is expert about it's his main work/knowledge. Again I'm not diminish the excellent work by Saskia/CSPort. Mike, for a moment please forgeret of your preference about and take all those facts in your mind and tell me if makes sense to you. Speed controller makes the difference for your preference? because that's what is in your whole words/posts. You said too and this is the second time in the thread: "" there are pressings where my active shelf takes the NVS to another level of precision. "" If you can I would like to know what really means your statement and if you can mention recordings where you experienced that characteristic and I understand that even that you are not biased in the same way that with the other TT designs for the NVS. And please sorry to disturb you again and again and thank's for your patience. R: Btw, you posted: "" Therefore, fine vibration generated by servo control can not be measured by the measuring instrument, it depends on the human ear. "" Everything can be measured today no matters what and in 2014 a gentleman posted about: "" Richard, very easy to read with a frequency counter and test record with steady tone. In a fraction of a second I've seen servos change 30 hz when playing a 2150 hertz tone "" Today tools and knowledge levels already improved over 2014. |
