Is Maplenoll still in Business?
MikeL, It all comes down to the resonance frequency of the suspension if it is under 3 Hz both vertically and horizontally you are in business regardless of how you do it. Just mass is not enough. You can have footfall problems with the heaviest of turntables then there is the rumble problem.
The only turntable with a true air bearing is the Kuzma Stabi XL DC Air.
Because the air bearing is impervious to load it also has what I think is the heaviest platter of any production turntable. The CS port uses air for the thrust bearing only. The rest of the bearing is the typical spindle like the Air Force Tables.
The Saskia is interesting because unlike other idler drives it does not use a stepped pulley to control speed. The idler is fixed and the motor speed is changed. Neat. Otherwise it is another mass loaded turntable in need of a suspension. But as you say they are both quiet for you. They could be quieter. But there is a downside to suspending a whole turntable. The whole affair is going to be a bit...bouncy. This might be disturbing to some. I would love to compare a Sota Cosmos with a Schroder CB arm to all these tables. Because the bouncy part is internalized it is easy to use. With the suspension, the magnetic trust bearing and the Eclipse drive I do not think a turntable could get much quieter. The standard drive in the Sapphire and Nova is quite good. The Eclipse is more sophisticated and I am sure it is superior to many drives out there. I would not use the Road Runner as it is a servo mechanism while the Condor is a three phase oscillator controlled drive which will maintain it's speed under any normal circumstance like any synchronous motor. Is there a sonic difference between the Eclipse and the standard Sota drive? I seriously doubt it. Like I said before I would spend the $1K on a better cartridge or tonearm before I spent it on the Eclipse package. |
Mike, I do not think it takes such heroic construction to make a synchronous or three phase motor drive to function at the state of the art. Those of us that do not have the kind of resources you have have a host of choices that also include adequate isolation unlike your Saskia and CS Port turntables which will freely pass on environmental rumble unless you have placed them on an isolation platform, an additional expense. |
"Have the choice of." I did not say all belt drives are not servo controlled.
A synchronous motor will fight to follow the frequency it is given. As long as this is accurate the synchronous motor will stay right on unless it's torque rating is overrun which under normal usage is highly unlikely.
With the Sotas excepting the Cosmos and Millennium you have the choice. They come standard with a synchronous motor and synthesized power. I would not add the Eclipse package. IMHO it is a waste of money. Spend it on a better cartridge. |
Atma-Sphere, I have noticed on several recent re releases and aggravating degree of rumble transferred to the record. I have always assumed this was from poor maintenance of an older lathe. Your last post would confirm this. Does anyone still make lathes? Can you get parts for older lathes and keep them running at spec? Is a high quality modern turntable quieter than a lathe?
I think everyone should take a deep breath and put on a record. Between tracks turn up the volume and listen to the noise. What happens to the noise when the music starts. How quiet does the music have to get before you can hear the noise again? I think we can all agree that that background noise is a form of random distortion, probably in the order of 3 to 100% depending on the volume of the music. But, when the music gets loud enough it disappears. Try as hard as you can you can not hear it (unless there is a huge scratch) If you can hear it, it is time to throw that record away and get a new copy.
My point in all this is that this noise is several orders of magnitude worse than any aberrations cause by even the least expensive audiophile turntables available today. These discussions are fun and alot of these arguments have merit and may influence your purchasing decisions.
The best turntable is always the one you just bought. Why else would you have bought it? In the end speed stability and wow and flutter are trivial issues next to rumble and isolation. How often has someone complained on this web site about wow and flutter? How often does someone complain about their woofers "pumping?" How often do people c/o foot fall skipping?
AC motors are king because they auto correct on the run. They will add or subtract torque to maintain whatever frequency they are being fed. As long as that frequency is perfectly stable you are in business.
Correction of DC motors always occurs after the fact and is a more complicated endeavor. Can you hear a difference? You can't even hear all that crap underlying the music on your records.
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Raul you rascal. You got banned from a forum? Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
In my own experience distinguishing between excellent turntables using the same cartridge is difficult and likely more dependent on my mood than any specific difference in performance. I am more inclined to look at more practical issues such as stability (can I jump up and down without the record skipping). How hard can I bang on the table before hearing it.
Ease of use. I don't care what it looks like as long as it is well constructed. I discriminate among the tables by drive type given the inherent weakness indigenous to each type.
Lewm, It is not really a filter effect although there is an anti aliasing filter up there but the high end frequency of CDs is limited by the sampling rate. If you over sample you can push the filter up higher reducing it's effects in the audio band but you do not push the frequency response up higher. One of the nicest albums ever recorded The Trinity Session was recorded in 44.1/16 so there is more at work here.
There is absolutely no problem with the bass on CDs. They do just fine and are generally cleaner than vinyl because of lack of mechanical considerations. Remember, for the most part I prefer vinyl to CDs.
Ralph, isn't it incredible that you can get a rock to vibrate that fast!
Mike, you really need to get a Reed 5T and tell us how you like it. If I had $20K disposable now I would go for it. |
The EMTs were designed for radio station use. A considerably different spec than what us audiophiles need. If you like having old stuff that is another issue. I would love to have a 356 cab. But in no way will it perform like my 991 Turbo S. It is the aesthetic that counts. So, I can appreciate that. But if it's $10K of the absolute best turntable you can buy you get a SOTA Cosmos. It will run circles around the EMT in everything but start up torque. None of us Q records like a disc jockey. Just think of what you get with the SOTA. A hot rod motor and control system, A magnetic thrust system on the bearing, the best suspension available today and vacuum hold down.
Personally, I've made up my mind. I'm gonna get an Air Force 1 Premium and slap a Reed 5T on it. Fabulous conversation piece:) |
Well said Richard. Wow and flutter after a point are more noticeable than absolute speed. That point it seems to me is 0.1%. Under this it is inaudible. Speed wandering is always a problem if it occurs rather quickly. Quickly enough to hear a pitch change during a side.
A significant reason for varying opinions is that all of our experiences are anecdotal. None of us has listen to a large panel of every type of turntable under controlled circumstances. I do not like DD turntables because all the ones I have listened to in situations where I have been able to compare them directly to belt drive tables have not done well. So, in my experience DD tables are not good. But I can't accurately say all DD turntables are bad. There may be some new designs Like Mike's that may be fine. I am also talking about tables over $10K .
As Richard says this is mostly a subjective hobby and unless we go out of our way to be objective (which is very hard to do) our subjectivity only applies to ourselves. Therein lies the danger of giving and taking advice as to what and what does not sound good or better.
Geoffkait, I have to agree. The dynamic compression used on many CDs is disgusting. But, there are high res downloads that are incredible. Recent examples are the Punch Brothers, All Ashore and Brittany Howard's, Jaime.
Lewm, I have a bunch of re mastered Miles stuff on modern Prestige pressings, many of them mono that are excellent.
Lastly, everyone should take a look at Reed's 5T tonearm. What a brilliant design. I do want one of those! |
Lewn, I do not own a Clearaudio Turntable because I do not care for their designs but they are very well made. Way better than say VPI. I do own one of their cartridges and it is well made and quite delightful.
I do not have to have direct communication with either. I only need to see what they are doing, knowing that both are trying to attack the state of the art in their own way. Anyone can make a direct drive table. The motors are readily available. Even VPI managed to come out with one. Belt drives are not that simple. There are complexities under the surface that take careful engineering. It is how ever and this is not IMHO, the most elegant way to make a high performance turntable and the vast majority of turntable manufacturers feel the same way. The vast majority of audiophiles with expensive systems also feel the same way. There are a few new DD turntables that I have yet to hear but the basic problem remains, an oscillating magnetic device directly under an exquisitely sensitive magnetic device who's job is to resolve magnetic oscillation.
Magnetic field strength drops off with the square of the distance. Every centimetre increase in distance between the motor and the cartridge decreases the motors influence over the cartridge by a factor of 10 increasing exponentially. I believe I would prefer an idler wheel drive table over a direct drive (haven't made that comparison) even though I would have to shelve my subwoofers.
This is why Howard Johnson's made 28 flavors. Some people would rather look at a turntable than listen to it. |
Alex are you kidding? I would wager $1000 that you can't hear the difference between a cheap belt drive and an SP10 in regards to wow and flutter. Not only can you hear rumble but it also distorts everything else you woofers are doing. And, since when have you made that comparison in a scientific fashion. Let me answer for you. Never. |
Thucan, more wishful thinking. If you can't afford new stuff that is fine. Buying used gear that is within your budget can be a smart way to increase the performance of your system. But trying to compare a D103 in any form to a Lyra Atlas or an Ortofon Windfeld Ti is ludicrous and delusional. However most do not have speakers capable of resolving the difference so spending the extra money would also be sort of silly. |
alexberger, you are living in a dream world. After a point you are incapable of hearing speed variations. Any decent turntable of any type operates well below that point. What you do hear is noise particularly rumble which affects everything above it. Idler drives are a total loss when it come to rumble. Every last one that I have had in my system and heard elsewhere has failed miserably. With a properly equalized subwoofer system it is virtually impossible to use one.
My arguments against direct drive are less fundamental, more ambiguous. Back when I was in a situation where I could compare turntables (I worked with Sound Components in Miami, FL back in the late 70's early 80's) we listened to several direct drive tables and in the end all of them sounded ....muddy in comparison to the best Belt drive tables. We hypothesized that it had something to do with an oscillating magnetic devise directly under the cartridge. They all had incredible specs. Nobody was using idler drives at the time. They had all been relegated to the trash bin of history.
You will notice that 90% of the best and most expensive turntables made are belt driven. You think that Techdas or Clearaudio couldn't build a direct or idler wheel drive if they wanted too? The reason they don't is because there are problems with those designs that can not be overcome and the only benefit is a level of speed accuracy you can not hear.
If you like vintage stuff that is fine but don't tell me it outperforms modern gear. That is just wishful thinking. |
Chakster, it is really quite simple. Those Technics tables you like are beautifully made eye candy. For many individuals the visual experience overloads the audio experience. Same thing happens with arrows on wires. The problem is that next to something like a SOTA Cosmos with any decent arm on it those Technics tables sound like finger nails on a chalk board. As far as air bearings go they are a totally unnecessary complication. If you want to float the platter just use opposing magnets.
I think the Air Force 1 is a tour de force of complexity. Eye candy for sure. Sound better? I would bet if I put the same cartridge and arm on a SOTA Cosmos or an SME 30/12 nobody would be able to reliably tell them apart but when you look at them then of course the Air Force 1 wins. |
I personally think magnet floating designs like the Clearaudio and SOTA bearing are a more elegant solution for a thrust plate. As for which one is stiffer I have no idea. As Atmasphere implies the connection between the bearing and the tonearm base have to be absolutely rigid. With either the air "float" or magnet float designs there is an element of squish. So we have a trade off between bearing noise and wear vs squish and whatever that does to the reproduction of music. I would certainly think a compressor would wear out long before any top quality bearing and I have heard a number of top quality tables with standard bearings make essentially no noise that I could ascertain under normal use so to my way of thinking air bearings of any type are filigree. Opposing magnets on the other hand if stiff enough than why not?
I do find it interesting that this discussion has boiled down to derivations in belt drive designs. |
Right Atmasphere, if on a "proper stand" which includes the floor and everything under it, a situation most of us have no control over. On any wood joist floor you will be in trouble. Those of us on concrete slabs are lucky. I personally do not think that level of speed stability is all that important. Like distortion in amps it becomes a numbers game. But, I do not have any prolonged experience with modern DD tables. My bias comes from the unfortunately distant past. You as an audio manufacturer get a lot more opportunity to play with this stuff than I do and I do believe I am jealous of that. My life just lead me in another direction.
What tonearm would you put on the 1200G? |
Atmasphere, I never thought it was a noise issue and I have to admit it is an intellectual bias without a shred of evidence that I know of. But magnets and magnetic fields have interesting ways of interacting with each other physically as well as electrically. My theory is that it is a distortion or tracking problem. All I can say for certain is that when these tables hit the market we were all enamored with them but quickly decided there was something wrong with the way they sounded. This is not just me but but all the audio big wigs in Miami circa 1980. The drive behind these tables was that they were cheaper, easier to assemble, much lighter (less expensive to ship) and could be pumped out in large numbers which they were. Since the Japs are capable of turning out an extremely polished device and the marketing hype was good they sold in droves until the digitally mandated vinyl crash. There are some newer DD tables I find intriguing and would like to hear but given my own experience I would never buy one sight unheard.
One other problem is that I have never seen a DD table properly suspended. A drive be it belt, DD or Idler is entirely dependent on it's plinth for isolation. Cartridges being the very sensitive devices they are will pick up any vibration transferred from the environment to the drive. This is best and most reliably done (IMHO) by having a very inert sub chassis suspended by a system with a resonant frequency around 3 Hz.
SME and Basis tables are examples of external sub chassis. The SOTA and Linn are examples of internal sub chassis. The Walker and Air Force 1 use air springs. Other types of plinths rely almost entirely on the structure they sit on down to the foundation of the house. |
Atmasphere, it is my understanding that a properly designed air bearing turntable is virtually as stiff as any solid bearing. The platters are very heavy and the air boundary is very thin on the order of microns. It is extremely compressed. Just the mass of the platter would make minute vertical movements impossible without rather extreme force. Having said all this I think it would be extremely difficult to hear the difference between and SME 30/12 and an Air Force One. But, the Air Force One is three times the price due to the added complexity and expense of machining opposing faces of the air bearing to such high tolerances.
My own feeling is that it is complexity for complexity's sake.
IMHO a properly designed Belt drive turntable such as the Sota Cosmos, the SME 30/12, and the Basis Debut are the best solution to this problem.
The problem with Direct Drives is a big oscillating magnetic device directly under a very sensitive magnetic device. With Idler Wheel tables it is the added mechanical complexity adding noise (rumble) |
Neonknight, I feel your pain. Reasonable assessment. Which of your tables do you use the most?
Antinn, great choice of mat. The triboelectric series you posted is upside down but it says the same thing. Materials at either far end of the series are problematic. Leather is right in the middle and has relatively neutral behavior. The problem however is that PVC is all the way at the top (in this series) And it is the material that is being rubbed into collecting electrons by the stylus not the mat. You have to discharge the record preferably while it is playing to minimize static build up and dust attraction. Interestingly paper is at the bottom and loves to donate electrons while vinyl likes to collect them. Paper is a bad choice for record sleeves But it is still the most common type of sleeve. Tells you how much the record industry cares about the longevity of their product.
Atmasphere, from an intellectual perspective I think you are right. However, the best tables have very inert platters and tonearms and you really only have to worry about their primary resonance frequencies. These are going to be so low that their impact on the sonic picture should be minimal if any at all. I have not seen any data but you would think air bearings or opposing magnet bearings would have less rumble. Certainly less wear on the bearing but what about the compressor? I think the opposing magnet design as used by Clearaudio and SOTA is a far more elegant solution, nothing to break or wear out.
As far as scar's question is concerned, everybody thinks what they own is the best or at least they want to convince themselves of this. There are several facts that can not be avoided. Direct drive turntables have a large spinning magnetic device right below a very sensitive magnetic device ,the cartridge. Aesthetically that is a huge problem for me even though I have never seen any non biased data to indicate that this is a problem. The Japanese make very trick products, well finished and jewel like. I think this sucks a lot of people in. There is a saying, the Chinese eat with their stomachs, the Japanese eat with their eyes. We listen with our eyes. If it looks good it must sound good.
Idler wheel turntables have more moving parts in direct contact with the platter. They can be pretty quiet when new but will produce more rumble as these parts wear. No matter how quiet you can make an Idler wheel table you can always make a belt or direct drive quieter. IMHO belt drive is a simple low noise solution that is difficult for the other drives to out perform by any sonic measure. All the Mega priced tables are belt drive. The Air Force Zero, Basis, Clearaudio Statement are examples. When people do "cost no object" designs they always rely on belt drive. There are very few producers of idler wheel turntables today. The vast majority of them are refurbished old tables. Same is true of Direct Drive. Look at what the reviewers use as their reference tables. |
