.? Digital Reclocking and syncing clocks does anyone know the correct Answrrsb

@cindyment

I mean both IM and unpleasant harmonic distortions (i prefer to simply use the musical term dissonant so that it is better understood). I leave that definition to music theorists and psychoacousticians.

reference for those who wish to dive in.

The 49720 does not suck at all. Those two chips are among my favorites, for musical amplification. Re-read read what I said: I stated that the % THD+noise measurement of my own designs, in comparison, "sucks". Meaning since amusing language seems lost here "is substantially higher in aggregate measured by FTC methods" (which i think are misleading, to normal consumers, for the reasons i stated)

But, maybe the inference needs to be stated: My custom designs, higher levels of total distortion and all, sound meaningfully better in many respects. Perceived dynamics being the most obvious.

Why? You tell me. I have some educated guesses (and no, on those, I’m not talking)

In my new Denafrips terminator-2 it has A Ton os superlative parts , massive 

power supplies, excellent top notch filtering-Swiss Elna Silmic capacitors,

as well as SuperCapacitors , O core transformers , pre buffering, FPGA 

$$ Dual frequency 45,49 MHz Oven controlled clocks , and  I read the report on the Gaia ddc,  I am using the lesser Iris and it bypasses the ddc clock for the top Terminator-2clock , this mk2 model is just a few % points ofthe T+ model .

it is identical on 98 % j. Just a few more smaller filter caps .

and using good cables ,using Wireworld best silver sphere Hdmi-I2S , and silver starlight 75 ohm BNC cables to sync master clock in T2 you can clearly hear the difference in coherence. All 5 of my guests heard the difference with ease 

What I meant to say is  the digital stream is never perfect, But the much more costly units  have many ways to correct Jitter or timing errors ,

What  you are saying is wrong. There is no jitter on USB of Ethernet inherent in the data transmission. None, nada, zip. There is no jitter or timing errors to correct. That is why low cost DACs, literally ones that cost <$200 are able to do THD+N, SNR <-110db, and IMD, even multi-tone IMD at very low levels.

Even with SPDIF, those DACs are able, though PLL receivers and any number of chip based methods reach SNR, THD+N, etc. <-110db. They will even do it with TOSLINK.  Cost means nothing. There are a lot of expensive DACs that can't do that. Think of how much experience, and knowledge goes into those DAC chips.

this too is where a DDC  -Digital to Digital converter to clean up the incoming digital stream and eliminate timing errors before it goes out to the dac , the easier the dac can read the less error correction s needed , On the better units they buffer the signal ,like ram  ,there there is FPGA  ,it’s exact implementation is above my Digital 

FPGA is just a bunch of fast digital logic. It has no inherent advantage. There is nothing to clean up with USB and Ethernet, and again, with SPDIF, if you are already <-110, or better, what exactly are you cleaning up?

@itsjustme , by Consanant and Dissonant distortion, do you effectively mean harmonic distortion and intermodulation distortion?  I could see dissonant distortion also meaning aspects of unpleasant harmonic distortion.

When those distortions go close to 0,we don't hear them, but you are correct, we may not like the result. Some people like tone controls, and distortion can also be used to affect tonal balance in a pleasing way. I actively play around with added distortion on my setup, preferring it with some music/listening levels. I just do it in DSP so I can turn it on/off.

The LM49720 does not suck. It a properly designed circuit, it is a straight wire with gain effectively. The THD, IMD, noise, etc. is low enough to be difficult to measure. The 1612 is similar. Put it in the wrong circuit, and conceivably it will have issues. They do what they do. They do it very well .... but .... no matter what they claim, a large portion of audiophiles don't want a faithful recreation of the recording, they want something different.

one thing is for sure the best measurements don’t always sound the best .

A perfect example A vacuum tube amp,or preamp measure no where near as good as even a mid fi amp but it’s distortions being even just sound right to the ear 

I am always wary of entering this swamp, but the huge elephant on the table comes from music theory - dissonance and consonance.  Its just plain mistaken to correlate " enjoyment" with "lest distorted, overall.

1. People's tastes differ

2. People's hearing differs.  Many in our (and i step into muck here) hobby are old men and have high frequency hearing loss.  Is a flat response best for them?  BTW many old rockers have tons of HF hearing loss and IMNSHO master records accordingly.  bright!

3. Consonant distorion can sound good.  Its disortion, but enjoyable.

4. Dissonant distortion sounds awful.

5. Corollary to 3 and 4 - ideally we would have a weighted measurement of distortion - reducing or eliminating the weight of consonance and vice-versa.

6. Now, if ALL distortions go to zero, or close, we ought not to be able to hear them. But #1,2 above might complicate that assertion.

I have spent 30 years trying to find measurements that lead me to better sounding designs. I have a few. I also have a bigger library of design tricks that produce good sound, but i cannot always measure why. My stuff has adequate measurements for THD + noise, but compared to a super opamp like a 49720 or 1612 they suck ( that's a technical term).  So back to Daniel and his quote..... (from many posts ago).

Anyway, for all this I may surprise many in that i generally prefer digital to analog, and get great results, by paying attention to basics.

LordMelton  you are correct your 👂 ears are the best measuring tools 

graphs and specs do count when designing ,but there is ways to smooth out a ripple or spike ,and smooth things with oversampling FPGA ,the final result is how does it sound  to reality ,and your audio system ,as well as room will influence the sound .Sound is just a movement of frequency in the realm of time .

The Moody Blues Classic nights in white satin  in the orb summed it up best - We decide which is real and which is a illusion  !!

What I meant to say is  the digital stream is never perfect, But the much more costly units  have many ways to correct Jitter or timing errors ,

this too is where a DDC  -Digital to Digital converter to clean up the incoming digital stream and eliminate timing errors before it goes out to the dac , the easier the dac can read the less error correction s needed , On the better units they buffer the signal ,like ram  ,there there is FPGA  ,it’s exact implementation is above my Digital 

pay grade ,I just want to get the most natural presentation without breaking the bank for myself the Terminator-2 and a good DDC reclocker is good enough for me for the next few years , this too can be improved upon. I just installed a dedicated 20 amp line dual ground, now maybe a few grand for a power conditioner, better power cords , better 75 ohm BNC cables to sync the dac reclocker, and better I2S cable, better ,usb cable ,better Ethernet cables ,Everything counts, where does it 

all end ? Being an Audiophile  maybe it doesn’t !!

@jimob Good for you Jim. Digital has finally arrived big time!

For anyone to say jitter which are timing errors are totally incorrect , even though the signal arrives in packets , the timing  can be off , distortions elsewhere substandard filtering, power supplies ,regulation pre,and post .

this is just a Bit of the potential whole. My uncle being a digital in pro audio for over 30 years ,has really  opened my 👁 👁 s  to so many  possibilities ,there is no one 

implementation that is best ,for everyone’s perception of correct in their specific 

system maybe different then you . 40 years + in audio and I am just looking into a DDC unit. I just started using Roon and streaming ,digital has truly evolved a lot in the last 3-4 years.digital has finally arrived !!

one thing is for sure the best measurements don’t always sound the best .

A perfect example A vacuum tube amp,or preamp measure no where near as good as even a mid fi amp but it’s distortions being even just sound right to the ear 

No they do not, and I would never claim they do. They can tell us how something compares against a reference and they can tell us whether something actually is able to do what it claims (other than sounding good). I won't type the details, but my system is very accurate, very low noise, and very low distortion (turntable excepted due to natural limits). Then I use signal processing to twist it and turn it to suit the music, mood, listening level, and even who I have listening with me. Same goal as anyone else, just a different way of getting there.

@mesonto I'm not having a jab at you or anyone else here. Just go and have a listen and make your own mind up instead of looking at specs all the time.

Check a Mutec or similar out for re-clocking (huge difference) or word clock (small but subtle difference).

I have even seen a RPI for about $150.00 that's a re-clocker but I haven't tried it.

Cindyment I totally understand  there are Waay to many arm chair experts.

one thing is for sure the best measurements don’t always sound the best .

A perfect example A vacuum tube amp,or preamp measure no where near as good as even a mid fi amp but it’s distortions being even just sound right to the ear 

with audio and R2R dacs and DSP and FPGA ,buffering you can truly make great sounding digital. The older Terminator was still very good ,the New Terminator2 

which I recently purchased sounds Very good across the board and natural .

the DDC unit does clean the digital signal coming in . My friend has the Hermes almost exact Gaia clone and when connected I2S to terminator everything goes up a notch in sound , and syncing the clock is less so but soundstage deepens and wider from my experiences with it , nothing is perfect in Audio Ever !!

@lordmelton thanks for the unnecessary jab, and for your edification I have never bought any sound equipment without an audition. Thank goodness, right?

But plunking money down on a reclocking device is insignificant compared to putting that money for the reclocker into a better DAC. If you want to put money down on what you perceive is better 'sounding' that is great, do so. But for most people, a slight 'change' perceived in the sound is not necessarily better.

This is a pretty good easy to understand article on Digital keep in mind it’s from 2008 and the section on "jitter", even 13 years ago explains how it isn’t a problem.

This is the problem @jimob , you have people who don't even know the most fundamental aspect of how a DAC works, commenting heavily and with authority, and at the same time making fun of people who actually do. Hard to navigate towards the correct answer working under that premise.

@cindyment Yes TBH I don't know how a DAC works could you explain to me please?

Would it not have been easier to just say "I have no idea, whatsoever, how a DAC works"?

lordmelton: The enemy of every DAC is jitter and even if a DAC has zero jitter it can’t compensate for the jitter coming in.

@cindyment  You really are off the charts...lol.

Re-read what you quoted it confirmed what I originally said.

Sources need to be re-clocked to give a DAC the best possible signal.

What's wrong? Is your multimeter broken or something?

I am just copying these lines for posterity. I feel no need to comment on your knowledge and what you bring to this discussion. I will simply let them speak for themselves.

lordmelton:  And BTW re-clocking is for the computer or source not the DAC : )

lordmelton: The enemy of every DAC is jitter and even if a DAC has zero jitter it can't compensate for the jitter coming in.

@mesonto  Yeah listen to Cindy from audiosciencereview.com where they never listen to anything just put it through an oscilloscope or multimeter. Again you are another Audio Messiah trying to save the Audio Fools from buying exorbitantly priced HIFI gear that you can buy on AliBaba for peanuts.

And BTW re-clocking is for the computer or source not the DAC : )

For all of those people who are reading through this complete thread, take Cindyment's advice. The information he gave was factual and absolutely correct. These reclockers may do something but if your DAC is already 'substantial' enough, you would be wasting your money.

I use a cheapo IFI ipurifier. It helps with signal coming from the node. This is a small difference and I would not be able to blind test it probably. The optical cable from the fire tv however definite improvement. 

You have to start with a specific DAC. I believe that mine ignores incoming clocks, so do I.

I believe it is not an issue with FPGA.

@jimob Wyred 4 Sound Recovery and MHDT Labs Orchid.

big_ Greg. What do you have for a dac ,

and what is your reclocker ?

I bought a well regarded reclocker and can't detect that it makes any difference whatsoever.  Thankfully, it was second hand and relatively inexpensive.

Reclocker works great for even decent streamers are far from a noise free environment ,try s good reclocker ,then you will see 

if using a computer a must ? As well as a uptone Ether regen on the Ethernet input 

noticeable improvement.

Reclocking cleans  digital signal  and makes it easier to read when the dac get the data puts it in a buffer then does a bunch of other things before final conversion ,in good dacs a lot of information way over my digital knowledge base .

It is not over my digital knowledge base. This "cleaning" the digital signal is a very suspect statement (not by you, but claims by people selling it). Even the cheapest streamer has a very clean digital signal output, with potentially the exception of some electrical noise which is not difficult to filter out. That can in rare instances affect SPDIF, but a good DAC should already isolate SPDIF. It will not effect the data, but it may introduce small amounts of jitter, something most modern "good" DACs eliminate without much trouble. We are talking streamer level jitter now, not the old large amounts of jitter from CD players. With USB, this is not remotely an issue. Your USB will work or not. If it works, the data is getting there, totally uncorrupted, and as noted, the timing on USB has no impact on the DAC clock.

The holo May is very good , the Terminators have been improved as of April 2021

and in one specific better measurement in one area ,many times not quite as good as others ,they both sound excellent in their own ways..  Reclocking cleans  digital signal  and makes it easier to read when the dac get the data puts it in a buffer then does a bunch of other things before final conversion ,in good dacs a lot of information way over my digital knowledge base .

@jimob ,

I am a little disappointed in Denafrips sending you a review that says,

ll DACs are not created equal, especially when it comes to dealing with noise, jitter and USB. For example, the Holo Audio May DAC (see review) was run through its measured paces by John Atkinson at Stereophile where he found, “In almost every way, the HoloAudio May (Level 3) is the best-measuring D/A processor I have encountered”.  According to GoldenSound’s measurements and his interpretation thereof, the May DAC’s FIFO buffer did a great job of rejecting word-clock jitter. I would assume, based on its measured performance and my listening impressions, that the Holo May DAC may not need a DDC like the IRIS since it does such a great job with USB all on its own. [footnote 2]

Almost every USB DAC made today, from probably $25 and up, is asynchronous. That means that the USB data transfer is independent of the DAC clocking. Virtually every USB DAC will have a buffer/fifo now. That the reviewer is not aware of this is shocking, but I am not surprised.

Denafrips collects and distributes these reviews just like everyone else, and gladly sends them to anyone who will listen. They appear to make great products, but they are counting on the uneducated consumer (and reviewer) as much as anyone.

Ok so to sum up if you're only using USB and need I2s out use the Iris. If you don't need I2s, use Mutec because it's a universal solution and it also includes a Word Clock.

YMMV

To big_ Greg. The link you sent is in German which myself don’t know 

can you translate in and resend ? Thank you .

It's actually Dutch.  I'm not going to translate it for you, but Google will.

Just received from Denafrips 

The master clock helps only if in your dac it’s not of equal or better quality.

i seen response from engineer Alvin from Denafrips he said in New Terminstor2,and plus model the terra clock no advantage pretty equal ,

 but reclocking , and syncing clock is worth doing , not enough space to include all in one box that's why it’s separate box, as well as for RF, isolation.

I don't get The notion of an external master clock in an home environment. Studios that are synchronizing a lot of devices  yes, at home overkill. 

To big_ Greg. The link you sent is in German which myself don’t know 

can you translate in and resend ? Thank you .

@jimob Hi the Terra is a Master Clock like the Mutec 10 MHz Master Clock so it should slave all other clocks to it. The Mutec is straighforward because 10MHz is standard.

@big_greg Hi Man I'm currently temporarily using a Teac UD-503 DAC/Pre-Amp in my main system because my Musical Fidelity DAC doesn't do DSD. Honestly it's outstanding. I originally bought it as a headphone amp but it sounds even better as a  DAC/Pre-Amp. It's clock input is 50 ohm, not the usual 75 ohm so I haven't been able to figure it to my Word Clock.

However if you're using computer audio it sounds fantastic with a re-clocker like the Mutec.

God Bless

I was told the terra master clock is not worth it for New Terminator-2 which is pretty much identical to the Terminstor + but difference is the 1k R2R resistors in both 

are even better spec then .005 in terminator2 , hand specked boards and rounded front ,I felt being within a few %  save $$ and buy a decent reclocker 

will ping up to the $1250 Hermes with has over controlled clocks  be a noticeable upgrade  ? And syncing clocks is this a minor  improvement ?

if I bought a mytec how would I sync there clock to Denafrips that use   45, and 49 MHz ? It can get complicated  it’s kind of a grey area , Thanks guys fir the input it’s a area most Audiophiles have not yet ventured out into the unknown.Many times 

if we don’t understand it we tend to just avoid it ,when in fact if we know how it works, and improves the fidelity then much more likely to buy it .

this is where  MFG companies should sharpen their skills to include information on a product such as DDC reclocking , and advantages and how to sync clocks to other brand dacs.

If you're considering adding a word clock, I suggest reading this review. 

I have the components reviewed (TEAC NT-505 and CG-10M) and would not recommend adding the word clock.  The clocking in the NT-505 is already very good and to my ears there was little if any noticeable difference after adding the clock.

Word clocks are used primarily in professional environments to synchronize multiple devices.

I know some swear by them, and perhaps with lesser DACs they make a more noticeable difference.  If you're considering upgrades, there are probably better ways to spend your money.

@audioman58 Hi using the Terminator with one of Denafrips re-clockers (DDC) I'm sure will be a fine solution. The clocks won't get degraded but I'm not sure how Denafrips' Terra connects to their system. If you have a very good server, as I said before, you probably won't need a re-clocker just the Terra Master Clock, but you also mentioned I2s so the Hermes etc. would be necessary.

I just use a Mutec MC3+USB only in Word Clock mode coupled to my Aurender N20 and it makes a huge difference. Mutec 10MHz is on my shopping list after I decide on a new DAC.

Cheers

Here is a big question , say you have a very good dac with over clock ⏰, 

Logically, if you have a "very good DAC", but you need some external "reclocking" device to make it work properly, is it a "very good DAC"?

The Denafrips clock are a proprietary inter-device clock. This is different from 10MHz external clocks.

If it is USB, then there is no connection between the USB clock and the clock used for the DAC output, so what is being "cleaned". With USB, there is definitely the potential for power supply and ground noise to get on the audio output of the DAC, but that is not a clock issue. If you started with a "very good DAC", I would hope it already addresses this issue.

What are you using for your digital source? Old CD players, where the clock was synced to the mechanism, and the error correcting could even come into play often had high jitter. If your "very good DAC" is not "very good", perhaps if you are using TOSLINK, you could be introducing jitter, but that is happening at the DAC, so how is a reclocker going to help that. If you are not using a CD player, then we can assume you are streaming, and streaming sources are already starting with very low levels of jitter. Can your "very good DAC" not use an already low jitter source and give you good audio?

A "very good DAC" could transformer isolate the SPDIF, or it could have an isolated SPDIF section, which would remove the noise issue.

Is an external 10MHz clock, which has to transmit that clock via a cable, that connects to some IC in a DAC, that has to deal with the electrical noise between the two chassis (clock and DAC) going to be, without question, better than the internal clock in a "very good DAC"?

In some systems, and with some DACS, noise isolation, power supply and grounds, can be beneficial, but that is almost always about noise directly getting into the analog output, not something that impacts the DAC circuitry and especially not in something designed right. Hence if you don't hear noise that you associate with power supply/ground loop issues, then it is unlikely you have a problem.

The act of reclocking is suspect and for USB does not have meaning. If your DAC needs the input to be "reclocked" then perhaps your DAC is not as good as you thought.

That’s Mutec dam spell check.

lordmelton they only things with muted is I hav3 not seen I2S which is ideal transfer 

from reclocker to the dac, and still no definitive answer , if  trying to sync clocks 

as example the less expensive Iris that uses still very good Femto clocks ⏰ 

to sync to top dual  over controlled clocks that choose 45,& 49 MHz  clocks 

theDenafrips Terminator+ for example has far superior more accurate  oven controlled clocks . Ifi sync both BNC 75 ohm cables  from less expensive Iris ddc reclocker to top Terminator +   The Question is  will this degrade  the quality of the far superior clocks in the dac ? That is the Big question , please answer only I’d you have a absolute answer will syncing a lower quality clock with a better one still be of benefit ? Thank s much 👍

+1 Mutec.

There are Re-Clockers and Word Clocks. The Iris, Hermes and Gaia are re-clockers which means your USB, AES/EBU or SPDIF cables go into the re-clocker before the DAC. The signals are then of course re-clocked or to say it another way synchronized in time with each other.

This is excellent for computer audio, however high end servers may not benefit so much.

For high end servers and DACs that have a Word Clock input adding a Word Clock brings another dimension of clarity. Denafrips make the Terra Master Clock.

The Denafrips system is pretty much an in house solution. If you have mixed brands look at Mutec. The Mutec MC3+USB is a re-clocker and word clock and can be connected to their very high end 10MHz Master Clock.

Grimm Audio is another consideration.

Have fun.