Difference in quality in products made in China?

Twenty years ago my brother-in-law who at the time was a government spook would laugh himself silly about his cell phone being taped within minutes after de-boarding a plane in China.

Different politics, economies and world views. Spying has been going on for so long now. It's just gotten so sophisticated that "why bother?" and "what, me worry?" are the bars for conscience.

Just now on the news I saw a 10 yr old girl who goes by the moniker CyFi who got bored with a video game and hacked the clock program to speed things up. I think I was still playing with Lincoln Logs at that age.

We live in different times and tech is outpacing us. I'm so glad retirement is on my horizon: I couldn't compete on that level but you know, they could ask for my opinion now and then.

All the best,
Nonoise

( http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/09/us/us-panel-calls-huawei-and-zte-national-security-threat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 )closely related: ( http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/22/the_top_10_chinese_cyber_attacks_that_we_know_of ) (vhttp://timelines.latimes.com/la-fg-china-cyber-disclosures-timeline/ )

The speaker build houses here were giving us a 30% failure rate, we switched to China and now have a zero% failure rate, at 1/3 the build cost.

I re-rest my case.

No, whatever you say is fine with me.

Dead serious. Hope I didn't upset your delicate sensibilities.

far-out dude.

I had bought a Cary Audio Design CD player CDP 303 about 12 years ago, and to my surprise I found at the back panel there was a sticker "assembled in Hong Kong " . Within second year the laser lense assembly failed and I had to replace it . Few more years later the analog output stage failed , I found that DAC section has failed . Instead of repairing , I bought a stand alone Bryston DAC to take digital output from my CDP . Four months back it had broken a cd drawer assembly gear . I bought a replacement Gera assembly with belt from eBay and replaced it . So it works fine now .
Against his : I also have a Sony CD player CDP 910 ( 10 cd magazine type ) , MADE IN JAPAN , bought in 1993 . I use it now on my second system . This CD player has never ever given me any problem, and works flawless even today. Not even rubber belt replacement !
Price I paid for Sony CD player was about $500 in 1993, while list price for Cary CDP 303 was $3000 in 2002.

Goofyfoot...I've re-opened the case at least as it pertains to you. As you seem comfortable with an astonishing level of cluelessness and misinformation regarding topics ranging from hand safety (!) to Asian education possibilities (Lau vs. Nichols was about language based immigration issues, a topic utterly irrelevant to even this convoluted thread), I can only suggest you may do better arguing your baseless race and orthopaedic theories with a less sophisticated group as you seem oblivious to having your hat so frequently handed to you. Dudes (and Dudettes) like yourself often embrace mythological racist theories out of fear and ignorance fueled by personal insecurity...generally one of civilization's worst characteristics that does no good for anybody, and promotes hatred and violence every god damned day.

Audiozen, that union dog won't hunt no matter how many times you say it.

Asians have always faced discrimination in the US educational system. Look back to Lau vs Nichols and the San Francisco Board of Education. I doubt if anyone could even name me five current Asian American College Presidents.

China reformed their educational system in the early 80's which resulted in better educated students. In the 60's the U.S. school's were number one globally with the highest SAT score's but when the AFL-CIO took control and unionized the teacher's in the 70's education quality in the states has been on a downward spiral ever since.

Also did you know that Jews and Asians traditionally have scored higher on SAT's than any other documented group. Nevertheless, Asians face the toughest challenges being accepted to top ranked colleges in America. But luckily for me, the conservatories have a high population of Asians with admirable intelligence and natural ability.

"Had I said something derogatory or demeaning towards Asian musicians, then I would apologize. To mention that the Asian students in a school that I am typically at, have a greater likelihood of natural technical ability because of hand strength and dexterity is not only a compliment but something that I've brought up a few times with Asian students themselves. No one was ever offended nor did anyone object. Any context beyond what I just mentioned is emotional froth."

No emotion at all Goofyfoot but as Wolf_Garcia noted with Asians it is probably more of a "numbers game" than any physiological advantage, that's all I'm saying, forget the politics even though underlying stereotyping often leads to erroneous conclusions IME.

Talk about stereotypes, I've got this vision of this hand fetishist professor culling those he deems having the "necessary tools" to become a great musician. Remember, Al Capanis, the VP of the Dodgers back in the mid 80's when asked by Ted Koppel why there weren't more black baseball managers in MLB? And then his obtuse observation that "I truly believe that they may not have some of the necessities..." Was the guy prejudiced? Maybe not conciously but probably unconciously he was or it never would have occured to him to make that comment.

Again, Goofyfoot it just seems that you won't acknowledge that what you and your "experts" are doing is profiling a collective group to fit into a certain mold, a perception that seems to many of us ridiculous as virtually all stereotypes are.

Unfortunately, hand strength and dexterity are issues for classical musicians. Robert Schumann hurt his hand in a device that he made which was intended to give him greater reach, strength and flexibility, however the injury that he suffered ruined his concert playing career and so he took up composing. Hand strength and placing ones hands correctly is a learned way of practicing and is just as much a reality as what happens in the Kirov ballet school in St. Petersburg Russia.
Had I said something derogatory or demeaning towards Asian musicians, then I would apologize. To mention that the Asian students in a school that I am typically at, have a greater likelihood of natural technical ability because of hand strength and dexterity is not only a compliment but something that I've brought up a few times with Asian students themselves. No one was ever offended nor did anyone object. Any context beyond what I just mentioned is emotional froth.

In other words, Goofy, KMA!!!!

Swampwalker you can't even be serious.

Good point Tubegroover. Good example was Beethoven. He was only 5'6" in height and had short but very strong finger's. His two top piano competitor's during the 1790's in Vienna were Hummel and Josef Wolffi and they both had very large hands and long finger's but were no match against Beethoven who never lost a piano competition in the palace's of Vienna between 1792 and 1798. Its all in the mind.

"Why are there so many Asians in western conservatories: because Asians have a physiological advantage. Their hands and fingers are strong and nimble. Their bone structure is considerably different from that of people from European decent. This advantage can carry over into the area of electronics. Look at some of the Japanese products from the 1960's and early 1970's."

Goofyfoot you might want to consider, along with those musical experts from conservatories that what make a muscician most proficient is what lays between the ears not some physiological advantage. Hand structure and size may help in easing facility but it doesn't compensate for the brain that sends the signals. I'm sorry, I totally disagree with your observation along with the "experts" you reference. And as Judge Judy is fond of saying, if it doesn't make sense it's not true. There are many examples of great musicians with large and small hands of I'm sure varying bone structure, lest we forget the concert pianist Alicia de Larrocha who at 4'7" in stature had large hands for her size but small hands by normal standards, not ideal for sure, how in the hell did she do it?

To make a blanket statement that "Asians have a physiological advantage, their hands and fingers are strong and nimble" is absolutely ridiculous.
While I'm sure there are many Asians who have hands and fingers that are strong and nimble, I'm also sure there are many oafs, butterfingers and ham handed klutzes as well.
IMO: IF (and this is a huge IF) any Asian advantage actually exists it may be one of patience and persistence rather than specific physical traits. And I'm certainly not suggesting all "Asians" are patient or persistent either.

Goofyfoot- it's called an analogy. You said

Asians have a physiological advantage. Their hands and fingers are strong and nimble. Their bone structure is considerably different from that of people from European decent.

and

My logic and intuition tells me to believe professionals in the field with venerated standing and honorary credentials.

.

I compared your first statement to statements made by others about so-called "physiological" (actually your example is anatomical)differences between different groups. The actually biological reality is that the intra-racial differences among humans are just as great as inter-racial differences.

With respect to your statement about people with venerated standings, how about all of the popes up until John 23rd, all of whom developed and/or explicitly endorsed the Church's teachings that all Jews were individually and collectively guilty for the crucifixion, and used that as a justification for antisemitism (best case) and genocide (worst case)!!! Silly me, I thought it was the Romans.

In other words, Goofy, KMA!!!!

To humanity!

Grave mis-justice? To the Pygmie's or to the Laker's?

Wolf-garcia, don't you worry about hurting your hand while surfing? I had a friend who played classical guitar and who hurt his hand while using a jackhammer to earn extra income over the summer. He never regained the strength in that hand that he needed for playing classical guitar so he had to switch over to a jazz program. One wrong mishap could ruin your professional music career.

I rest my case.

Well Audiozen, that doesn't at all make me feel warm and fuzzy. What a grave mis-justice.

I actually met a seven foot pygmy by the name of Nelson at LAX in 2009 while waiting for a connecting flight. He was with his Agent and informed me he just signed with the Laker's.

Well then Wolf-garcia you undoubtedly must be right. I can see by your responses that you've been involved in teaching classical violin and piano for 60 or so years. But since I have these ridiculous racist stereotypes, then I'll add these as well; Koreans typically have curly blonde hair and pigmies are normally 6 feet tall and it would be my racist perceptions to believe any differently. Get real.

Goofyfoot...I've been a professional musician and a professional goofyfoot (competitive pro longboard surfer) likely longer than you've been alive, and I strongly suggest you get out in the world a little more to learn what racist nonesense is all about. Thinking finger size has something to do with musical proficiency is weird (I know some 300 lb Hawaiian ukulele masters who might question your opinions), claiming this is common knowledge among some school of classical musicians simply insults classical musicians, and if you think objecting to racist stereotyping is political correctness, just spout that crap among some of my large handed Asian friends and be ready to duck. I don't know you, but if you're somebody who would actually say something like "you have nice fingers for violin LIKE ASIANS OFTEN DO", you've showed me all I need to know.

The Communist part of China loves our money but hates our culture, but the current criminals we have in Congress are moving us closer than ever before to a police state Orwellian government, so its just a matter of time we will be like China. The underground liberation groups in China respect what we have left of our Republic and love Americans. Its only the racists against China in the U.S. that fail to recognize the extreme contrasts in China and the changes they went through in 1948. China is a mixed bag just like the U.S. and the certain companies in China manufacturing very high quality electronics are the Asians that embrace capitalism more and and respect free enterprise and open markets we have in the states. As long as I'm aware of these certain companies and the pride they have in what they make I'll never have a problem buying Audio components made in China. After all, your laptop computer is made in China.

Swampwalker, is that what I said? If I were to mention to an Asian violinist that she had natural hands for playing the violin (which is often the case), that this would be defamatory remark rather than a simple observation. There was nothing in my original comment that would even suggest racial targeting or criticism towards Asians. Besides this, you know nothing about me, whether my wife is Chinese or whether or not I'm Jewish, nothing, zilch. To think that commenting about the physical strength and dexterity in the physiology of an Asians hands is less than a compliment is taking what I've said totally out of context. This new age-ie woo woo notion that were all physiologically the same and that commenting otherwise is somehow racial profiling is sure nonsense.

Goofyfoot- there were also "professionals w venerated standing" who said that the Jews killed Christ and that black men had an additional muscle and/or bone that made them better athletes than whites, and that humans would suffocate in railroad cars traveling at 25 mph. Sheesh!!!!

Wow.

The weirdly racist and unsubstantiated claim that Asians have more "nimble fingers" is utter nonesense. There are simply a LOT of Asians to pick from and therefore a lot of Asians around everywhere (especially in Asia!)...I grew up in Honolulu which is basically an Asian community and learned firsthand that common racial stereotypes are always ignorance based bullshit.

Wolf-garcia, I appreciate your conscious efforts towards being politically correct however my assumption from your post would be that you have limited contact with pedagogues and students in a conservatory situation. This claim is far from being my own generalized assumption but rather information passed on from piano and string players and instructors involved in the classical music field. The most notable being a non-racist minister and piano instructor who attended several excellent conservatories on the east coast. My logic and intuition tells me to believe professionals in the field with venerated standing and honorary credentials.

I have had no problems with workmanship of Chinese gear.
It's the counterfeit components they put in that annoys me.
Eg. the Ming Da stuff, even those "properly imported" by the US "distributor". There is no shortage of Rudeyconn caps... and I am not kidding.
Also is the utter disregard for safety. No bleeding resistors across 1st stage filtering caps, no elevated filament voltage for SRPP gain stages etc.

The weirdly racist and unsubstantiated claim that Asians have more "nimble fingers" is utter nonesense. There are simply a LOT of Asians to pick from and therefore a lot of Asians around everywhere (especially in Asia!)...I grew up in Honolulu which is basically an Asian community and learned firsthand that common racial stereotypes are always ignorance based bullshit.

I knew it! A conspiracy, much deeper than exploding/inferior capacitors!

Rodmann99999...I clicked on the link you posted to the toxic chemical found in syrup in China known as Diethylene Glycol. This chemical has also been showing up in Audio components manufactured in China such as Preamps. Extensive investigation by the U.S. Department of Health has found the chemical imbedded in volume knobs and push buttons on the front of Preamps. By using the control's on the Preamp causes the chemical to absorb into the blood stream. The chemical only becomes lethal when playing the final movement of the 1812 Overture. 17 Audiophiles during the past eighteen months have dropped dead in their sound rooms from the chemical listening to the exploding cannon's in the Overture.

( http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2007-05-06/news/0705050225_1_syrupy-poison-pure-glycerin-diethylene-glycol )

I have two pairs of 2905's and one pair of 2805's, all made in China.

The 2805's have an adequate fit and finish, comparable to my Quad ESL's. The first pair of 2905's was much better. The second pair of 2905's, from 2-3 years ago, was better yet, and significantly so - they could almost have been German.

What is still missing are the fine details which we hobbyists use and admire: self-threading screws should be teflon coated and anything but Phillips, wires should be 18AWG silver coated, etc. But few manufacturers go that far, Chinese or occidental.

Because of the huge manufacturing "ability" in China, there are many products that are designed in the west but built in China. Some western companies take quality control seriously and others do not.

It's exactly the same with Chinese companies.

Problem is right now the WWW lets us buy from companies that have a web pressesnce, but no real reputation.

Their products initially look good, but ultimately longevity is not their main goal.

Also, many dealers looking to tempt us in to their stores, provide less than stellar quality products sourced form China. It's easy for them to stop selling that product once quality becomes an issue, with the age old line "Oh yes, we stopped selling that brand due to quality issues".

From what I've read on Agon, Pangea is one company that does provide quality products - and I'm sure there are many more.

But it is very much a case of buyer beware :-(

A little old Italian man once told me...

" to trust is good - not to trust is better!"

Why are there so many Asians in western conservatories: because Asians have a physiological advantage. Their hands and fingers are strong and nimble. Their bone structure is considerably different from that of people from European decent. This advantage can carry over into the area of electronics. Look at some of the Japanese products from the 1960's and early 1970's.
As far as intelligence, work ethic and skill is concerned, the Chinese could build and sell Hubble telescopes if it made financial sense for them to do so. By the way, my Quad 2905's sound great and they're built to higher standard than the previous Quads (in my humble opinion). The biggest problem with poorly made Chinese products is that those manufacturers who make cra$ just don't care.

Additional info..KEF speakers is owned by a Chinese Company, GP Acoustics, based in Hong Kong. KEF's top line speakers are made in the U.K. but their mid and low line speakers are made in China. GP Acoustics also owns Arcam and Celestion.

I got Audio Space el34 Nova (upgraded caps) for over 5 years and I use it for everything, AV, HI FI 8 everyday.It has been rock solid reliable, not like my other 2 Audio Research VT100 that blows all the time! They actually sounded more natural then the VT. I kept the Chinese amp at the end.

Quality can be found in China but their labor market is shrinking fast, lowering the level of skilled labor available. Those who are already established in Chinese markets have the pick of the labor.

China is also based on a very old system of local "rulers" who have more control over the provinces they live in than the local authorities do. Nissan calls these local elites "little emperors" who must be appeased (by design and features) if sales are to continue at an acceptable rate. It's a different way of doing things.

All the best,
Nonoise

I neglected to include that 70% of all Luxman products are now made in China by IAG, which also own's Luxman. Other companie's that are now owned by IAG who manufacture's their product's is Wharfedale, Quad, Mission and Castle Speaker's as well as Audiolab.

Also..as most are aware nowaday's, all laptop and desktop computer's are made in China, a market that China has taken away from Japan during the past seven year's. Japan still hold's strong in the Chip market, high end audio and television's, but in the foreseeable future China
and South Korea will take those market's away from Japan as well leaving them their strongest industry, automobile's.

Parasound was the first American company in the early 80's
to manufacture offshore in Asia. Their products have been manufactured in Taiwan for over thirty years. The biggest company in China that provides OEM services for Audio companies in Europe and the U.S. is IAG. The International Audio Group. Companies such as Vincent Audio, Cayin, BMC and Prima Luna just to name a few, have all their manufacturing done in China. Many of the mid-line speakers from B&W are made in China at B&W's own factory. All Polk speakers are made in China. The best quality produced in China are American and European companies that have their own employee's living in China to
oversee quality control and production. IAG production of electronics is the best in China. Hi-Vi Corp. in China is right behind IAG. Hi-Vi owns Swans speakers and produce forty thousand speakers a month for a world wide network. They are the largest manufacturer of speaker driver's in Asia and have the largest Anechoic chamber in Asia. They currently have under construction a large production campus of multiple buildings that when complete, will surpass IAG.

I just bought some Pangea power cables (9ASE & 14AE Signatures), they are well made and sound wonderful. My other cables are Cardas Golden Reference and PS audio I don't believe that they are superior!

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/5685963/Nine-held-over-Shanghai-building-collapse.html)

IMO: China and Korea are capable of making products at any quality level desired. Same things were once said about Japanese products, now I wish I could afford some of them.