Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
"Your comment regarding directionality of interconnects doesn’t belong in this discussion. A large percentage of interconnects are shielded and should be plugged in according to the directionality that the manufacturer specifies. No, I have not run a statistical survey of the percentage of cables that are shielded.
To those of you who don’t know what this means from a hookup perspective, the outer shield is tied to the RCA ground at only one side. The shield "floats" at the other side."
As I already stated I’m not referring to shielded designs. An example of an interconnect that comes with directional arrows but is NOT shielded is the ANTICABLES IC. The reason unshielded cables come with directional arrows is because the conductor itself is directional. ANTICABLES cables comprise only a (solid core) conductor with connectors. Thus, like fuses, and unlike shielded cables, they are perfectly symmetrical; so it must be the *wire itself* that produces directionality. Follow?
From Anti Cables website: "The ANTICABLES Analog RCA Interconnects use the same design concept as the award winning ANTICABLES Speaker Wires. They use only the materials needed (solid core wire and connectors). Those materials are of very high sonic quality, and unnecessary materials such as thick plastic jacketing are eliminated. They are simple, cost effective, and perform very very well..."
I'll let you all debate fuses and directionality to your heart's content. How you spend your time on this big rock we call Earth is none of my business.
Geoff - your comment:
By the same token, reversing interconnects that were inserted randomly
between components will improve the sound 50% of the time for the same
reason. It’s a wire directionality issue. It’s why many boutique cable
manufacturers have been putting directional arrows on their cables for
twenty five years. Hel-loo!
Geoff Kait Machina Dynamica we do artificial atoms right
doesn't belong in this conversation. A large percentage of interconnects are shielded and should be plugged in according to the directionality that the manufacturer specifies. No, I have not run a statistical survey of the percentage of cables that are shielded.
To those of you who don't know what this means from a hookup perspective, the outer shield is tied to the RCA ground at only one side. The shield "floats" at the other side.
The grounded side should be plugged into the source. IOW, it should be plugged into the line stage side of an interconnect that runs from a line stage to power amp(s), the phono stage side of a cable that runs from phono stage to line stage, etc..
In my experience, there is an audible degradation (noise) when you reverse the cable so the grounded shield side is plugged into the load side (i.e. the power amp in the above example).
Could wire be directional? Sure. Could a cable manufacturer wire their interconnect such that the optimum direction (from a wire directionality perspective) is in conflict with the shield connection? It's possible.
Okay, I switched the fuse direction today and am listening. Details at 11...
Before reaching any conclusions, my suggestion is that you switch it back and forth a couple of times, and listen to the same recordings at precisely the same volume settings following each reversal. In other words, try to verify that the results are repeatable, and that any differences that may be perceived are not due to extraneous variables such as differences in warmup state, variations in AC line voltage and/or noise conditions that may occur at different times of the day or night, differences in contact integrity, etc.
Okay, I switched the fuse direction today and am listening. Details at 11...
My bugaboo: IF fuses are directional, AND manufacturers know this, Then, Why can't they tell us which way to orient the fuse for most musical reproduction? As I said earlier, Pat as SMc, said to try them one way and reverse them later and see what sounded better. To my feeble mind, if these things are directional, then you must know which way is best without needing to switch things around.
Indeed whatcha'll arguin' for? The "effort" had already been invested in directionality of fuse(s) to let you all fools know why fuses are so pricey. If you don't hear difference between directions and fuses, go to doctor OK?
"So there ARE (not shouting, but my ’puter doesn’t offer italicization) bulk wire manufacturers (specifically the ones from whom the fuse makers claiming directionality get their wire) who offer direction-orientated wire, and indicate the "flow" direction of the wire on their spools? I don’t suppose one such wire maker can be cited?"
recall from HiFi Tuning data sheets wire measures differently, albeit slightly, in one direction vs the other.Thus all the fuse manufacturer has to do is to cut the first small section of wire off the spool and measure the voltage drop across the wire, both ways. Voila! And if the fuse manufacturer makes his own wire he can see how the wire comes off the final die. So he just tags the wire to keep track of the direction. It’s not rocket science. I just saved you a phone call to a fuse manufacturer. Besides, we already know all wire is directional.
So there ARE (not shouting, but my 'puter doesn't offer italicization) bulk wire manufacturers (specifically the ones from whom the fuse makers claiming directionality get their wire) who offer direction-orientated wire, and indicate the "flow" direction of the wire on their spools? I don't suppose one such wire maker can be cited?
"To make sense, the maker of fuses claimed to be directional would have to have either:
1- Manufactured the wire used in his fuses (having control over the manufacturing would facilitate him keeping track of the directional properties of that wire. Do any of the audiophile fuse makers claim to manufacture the wire they use in their fuses?)"
Excellent, excellent! Did you just take some smart pills or something? Of course the fuse manufacturer would have to keep track of the wire in terms of the correct direction and ensure that the correct direction is maintained throughout the whole manufacturing process. It sounds complicated but it’s actually not and fuse manufacturers - just like cable manufacturers - have been doing just that twenty years. Hel-looo! PS the fuse manufacturers don’t actually have to manufacture the wire. All they would have to do is check for directionality when the big spool of wire arrives. Then the directionality of the wire for the rest of the entire spool is known. Of course, some fuse manufacturers might produce their own wire, who knows? But it wouldn’t matter, the methodology would be the same.
Gents, I stuck my neck into the "Red Fuse" debate recently and it found it fruitless. This fuse "direction" debate is even more absurd. Lots of educated folks propound evidence that it is BS with AC current. All smart guys know that to be the case. Others, perhaps with an expectational bias, hear it differently and good for them and the boutique fuse marketers.
The point of my post to my erudite friends hereon, from whom I have leaned plenty (you know who you are) is that engaging GK in a rational argument about electrical circuit behavior is a fool's errand, just tiltin’ at windmills. You are trying to engage in a logical, rational discussion with him and it is impossible. He is on a different wave-length in all manner of his perception of reality and clearly loves to pull everybody’s chain who is thinking about anything that makes any sort of sense. I am scornful of his often successful attempts at making thoughtful and helpful posters take their eye off the ball, which is our enjoyment of music and the gear to do with, to engage in his ridiculously inane assertions. My best advice is not to engage the fellow as it is less productive than dealing with a petulant two-year old child who is having a "bad hair" day. The big picture is that in the audio world, GK is as insignificant as the atoms he sees floating around on the surface of conductors. I pity him as he brings nothing but vitriol to these discussions. We are all bigger than that. Cheers lads, Whitestix
"It's how the wire of the conductor is manufactured that determines it's sonic directionality".
"Obviously unless the cable manufacturer keeps track of the directionality of all wire the result will not be satisfactory".
"All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die. That's what make (sic) the wire directional sonically".
"Make sense?'
To make sense, the maker of fuses claimed to be directional would have to have either:
1- Manufactured the wire used in his fuses (having control over the manufacturing would facilitate him keeping track of the directional properties of that wire. Do any of the audiophile fuse makers claim to manufacture the wire they use in their fuses?)
Or:
2- Bought the wire they use in their fuses from a wire manufacturer who claims and guarantees directionality of the wire the fuse maker employs in his fuses.
If neither of the above two are claimed, how does the fuse maker determine the directionality of the wire he buys and uses in his tubes?
"Deny the possibility of phenomena for which no plausible explanations have been advanced".
No, I actually admit that possibility. But, if the above quotes are advanced as plausible explanations for the directionality of fuses, yet neither 1 nor 2 are the case, I fail to see how a fuse can be claimed to have been made with directional properties.
Excerpt from the introduction of Zen and the Art of Debunkery:
"As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.
• Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air certifying that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Adopting a disdainful, upper-class manner is optional but highly recommended.
• Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous," "trivial," "crackpot," or "bunk," in a manner that purports to carry the full force of scientific authority.
• Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will send the message that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.
• By every indirect means at your disposal imply that science is powerless to police itself against fraud and misperception, and that only self-appointed vigilantism can save it from itself.
• Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a pre-emptive holy war against invading hordes of quackery-spouting infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate the scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending it.
• Reinforce the popular fiction that our scientific knowledge is complete and finished. Do this by asserting that "if such-and-such discovery were legitimate, then surely we would already know about it!"
• Deny the possibility of phenomena for which no plausible explanations have been advanced. Ignore such contrary examples as the existence of disease prior to the discovery of microbes, the sun's copious production of energy long before the discovery of nuclear fusion, and the stubborn persistence of gravity despite our stubborn ignorance of its inner workings."
Well, I was the first to answer the OP and said I couldn't think of why a fuse could be directional. Since then, I called McCormack (I own a DNA-1)and spoke at length with Pat, who said that I should try the fuses in both directions and see if there is a difference. (He did think there is a difference).. I bought the last few Hifi Tuning Star Sapphires still available for the Power Mains. To me, yes, there was a difference in sound, a significant change, mostly for the better. So, after a few days, I will try reversing the fuse and will post my observations. No, it won't be a scientific test, but I consider my audio system a pleasure/hobby.- Though it would be nice if there were a scientific explanation. My only gripe is that many of these companies are upgrading their fuses, AND then increasing prices to somewhat unreasonable amounts.-Perhaps that should go on another thread....
As a long time manufacturer of amplifiers and pre- amplifiers I hope you will share in detail the feedback your customers have conveyed to you concerning which fuses improved the sound and which did not.
I think this information would be especially useful to the OTL community to which you and I belong. My amp is an Eddie Current Zana Deux - tube based , as are your OTL products. Your providing this information does not constitute a manufacturer's endorsement.
almarg6,299 posts04-14-2016 10:21amGeorge, it’s not clear who your last post was addressed to, but if it was addressed to the person who posted just above that post I think you may not have interpreted what he said as it was intended.
Georges is in attack mode. LOL!!!
mlsstl641 posts04-13-2016 10:27pmI find it ironic the extremes to which admitted subjective audiophiles will go in order to to claim that their perceptions are due to anythingbutsubjectivity. That’s classic -- apparently subjective audiophiles are embarrassed by their subjectivity. Hence the need to concoct exotic harebrained technical explanations in an attempt to justify and explain what they hear.
I use audiophile fuses and can hear different directions. I'm NOT embarrassed, SUNSHINE! What's to embarrassed?? The only explanation I need is trust my sense of hearing.
I can probably speak for most members participating in the Synergistic Red Fuse thread too,
SUNSHINE.
"BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being
proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to
power wiring."
Nice try but there is no such law as you seem to
be implying.... That’s a Strawman
argument by the way, I.e., a statement of "fact" intended to win the
argument.
Perhaps you can commiserate with the defense electronics dude.
Well, the only kind of effect this defense electronics dude can think of that would not be directly proportional to length, in the case of power wiring or cables conducting analog signals, would be antenna effects, that may affect pickup or radiation of RFI/EMI. And even in that case, it would seem expectable that the antenna effects of a mains fuse (if any) would be swamped by the antenna effects of the much longer associated AC wiring. Also, FWIW, this defense electronics dude cannot envision a means by which the antenna effects of a fuse (if any) might be different depending on the direction in which it is inserted.
I think there is a significant amount of truth in your assessment of the media and system in general which accounts for much of the USAs woes these days (ie maybe we’re not as great and perfect as we were taught to think as kids partly due to the dumbing down forces at play everyday) but remember that not everyone has been totally brainwashed yet so the good fights go on everyday in earnest as well as they pretty much have always at least as far back as I remember. The most important conflicts are often not fought with guns and bombs. the good news is at least we have a system that supports freedom in many ways. Nothings perfect.
It's very often pointless to mention mapman. I tried to speak from Mark Twain's stand point to the school teacher of my children, but realized that she doesn't know who he is besides mentioning more classic American and other nations writers. It rang my bell that it's time to switch to home-schooling and take them out of school ASAP.
Evidence that nation going fooled and mentally depleted is obvious and very strong starting from elementary school and ending with powerful brainwash via magazines, commercials and news having not a single word true. I parent block news channels just like porn(porn is actually OK or I'd say much better).
"BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to power wiring."
Nice try but there is no such law as you seem to be implying. Mapman will probably buy it, though. That’s a Strawman argument by the way, I.e., a statement of "fact" intended to win the argument. Perhaps you can commiserate with the defense electronics dude.
George, it’s not clear who your last post was addressed to, but if it was addressed to the person who posted just above that post I think you may not have interpreted what he said as it was intended.
Geoff, thanks for the comprehensive response, although I’m not sure what the strawman argument was that I was attacking. BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to power wiring. While the same is also true for analog cables, it is not necessarily true for cables conducting digital signals. And in the case of digital cables, btw, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that they might be at least slightly directional under some circumstances, due to reflection effects that may affect waveform quality, that may in turn affect jitter. That might occur if the cable’s "characteristic impedance" is not precisely the same at both ends, perhaps due to minor soldering differences in the two connectors. Directionality due to that kind of effect, however, would be system-dependent, unpredictable, and unrelated to the direction of any arrow that may be marked on the cable.
Documented evidence would indicate the only real interest of some here is tooting their own horn no matter what. Not too hard to figure out. Its all out there for the reading. So kudos to those with useful information and with an interest in helping others understand things. It may seem like a waste of time sometimes but will pay off in the end.
"Ok now that you’ve said this, show where this is quoted that a 1/2" piece of resistance wire is directional.? Or is it your voodoo thought on the subject, and is not quoted anywhere else by any manufacturer of their fuse product?"
I just gave you two fuse manufacturers (HiFi Tuning and Isoclean) who have stated or implied (by putting directional arrows on their fuses) that, uh, fuses are directional. Did you fall asleep again?
Al thanks for the recap. However the statements you provided, including second hand testimony, for the most, part are excellent examples of both Strawman Arguments and Appeals to Authority, both of which as it turns out are logical fallacies. Here is my recap of your arguments.
Strawman Argument
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1]
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]
This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.
Allegedly, straw-man tactics were once known in some parts of the United Kingdom as an Aunt Sally, after a pub game of the same name where patrons threw sticks or battens at a post to knock off a skittle balanced on top.[4][5]
Appeal to Authority
Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]
In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]
A is an authority on a particular topic A says something about that topic A is probably correct Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]
Technicians that are also audiophiles use/calculate different technical assessment properties. Then make subjective listening assessments, to which sound better of those technical differences.
There is no VOODOO, praying to the hifi gods or waving a big stick involved, I suggest if your equipment is designed like this, throw it in the bin before it blows up or kills you.
I find it ironic the extremes to which admitted subjective audiophiles will go in order to to claim that their perceptions are due to anything but subjectivity. That’s classic -- apparently subjective audiophiles are embarrassed by their subjectivity. Hence the need to concoct exotic harebrained technical explanations in an attempt to justify and explain what they hear.
Perhaps the following attempt at a summary of the fuse directionality debate would be constructive at his point. Or perhaps it won’t be, but I’ll attempt it anyway. The summary reflects comments that have been made in all three of the fuse threads that are currently ongoing:
1)Three different experienced designers of very well-regarded audio electronics have said, as one of them put it, that the reason fuses are directional is "the vivid imagination of audiophiles."
2)Another experienced designer of very well-regarded audio electronics who has not been participating has been cited as eschewing fuse upgrades altogether.
3)A number of others having extensive experience as musicians, professional sound engineers, and audiophiles have expressed similar viewpoints.
4)One experienced designer of defense electronics (me) has expressed significant skepticism (limited only by respect for perceptions that have been reported by a few members he considers to be particularly credible), and has emphasized that it is very easy in audio to attribute a perceived difference to the wrong variable (with the variable that is actually responsible often being very non-obvious), and has explained why measured data that has been presented in support of directionality is misleading and meaningless.
5)Numerous users of SR and other audiophile-oriented fuses have attested to their directionality.
6)A claim has been made that **all** wire is significantly directional. The aforementioned experienced designer of defense electronics has indicated that if that is so, since cable resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect, proximity effect, dielectric absorption, propagation delay, and the degree of pretty much all other cable effects are proportional to length, then the alleged directional effects of the AC wiring in components, and in the windings of the power transformers in those components, and in their AC power cords, and in the AC wiring inside and outside of the house (which are all in a random mix of directions), would totally swamp any alleged directional characteristics of AC mains fuses. So assertions of directionality in AC wiring and AC fuses cannot both be true.
7)As the aforementioned experienced designer of defense electronics stated in the ongoing Littelfuse thread, each individual reading these threads can and will decide about the issue for him or her self.
All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die.
Ok now that you've said this, show where this is quoted that a 1/2" piece of resistance wire is directional.? Or is it your voodoo thought on the subject, and is not quoted anywhere else by any manufacturer of their fuse product?
"OK show us a power cord with two wire connection that has directionality advertised in the manufacturers POSTED docs/details. (not just an arrow on the wire.)"
What would be the point? If you’ve made up your mind already, and it looks like you have, nothing I say will change your mind. That’s the beauty of the Backfire Effect. The more evidence is presented and the longer the debate continues the more convinced the skeptic is that’s he’s right. Happens all the time. He just continues to demand proof. Prove it, prove it! All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die. That's what make the wire directional sonically. Make sense? So for stranded cables each tiny little strand is directional, and the entire bundle of strands is also directional. Follow?
OK show us a power cord with two wire connection that has directionality advertised in the manufacturers POSTED docs/details. (not just an arrow on the wire.)
Some two wire powercords that have a figure 8 plug that plug into the back of low power devices such as cdp dacs ect. Can sound different if the figure 8 plug is turned around 180’. But that’s not directionality, it because the active v the neutral is fed into the mains transformer differently, inner winding v outer winding. A FUSE DOES NONE OF THIS!!!! It’s a 1/2" piece of resistance wire!!!!
Like I said Forest v Trees v geoffkait .
I relay my baton over to almarg/mapman, I’m sick of of this voodoo s**t.
"Power cables have three wires, re-read my last post, sorry but you are becoming a lost cause, and can’t see the forest through the trees."
In my defense power cords can often have only two "wires." Both of which are almost always stranded. And both of which, like all wires, are directional. Follow? As for the third wire, isn’t that the ground? I.e., it’s not really a conductor.
George, obviously unless the cable manufacturer keeps track of the directionality of all wire the result will not be satisfactory. If a cable manufacturer knows what he's doing having multiple conductors in a cable is not going to be a problem.
pop quiz, are stranded cables directional? Are power cords directional?
This can also depended on how the sometimes many +- conductors what way they are twisted together over meters which have inductance, capacitance and resistance , there is only ONE conductor in a fuse that's only 1/2" long!!!!!!!!!!!!.
George, please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not referring to ICs with shields as that’s a different issue. I’m referring to ICs without shields. They are directional and have always been directional. And for the same reason that all fuses are directional. By the way I totally get the backfire effect. No worries.
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