Determining current flow to install "audiophile" fuses.
There are 4 fuses in my Odyssey Stratos amp. I recently returned some AMR fuses because they rolled off the highs and lows a little too much for me. Mids were excellent though. Anyway, I'm getting ready to try the Hi-Fi Tuning Classic Gold fuses, as they are on clearance now for $10/ea. Are they any good? However, I have read that they are a directional fuse? Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case, does anyone know the current flow for the Odyssey Stratos? Or, does anyone know how figure out current flow by opening up the top and looking at the circuitry?
TO: jsbach1685 I installed 4 synergistic research red fuses in my Odyssey Khartago extreme and the results were awesome. Each fuse cost about $90.00. This has been the most cost effective modification I have ever made without having to use my soldering iron. It is my intention to call Klaus and tell him to offer these fuses as on option on new units. He should also put them in demo units at shows so that everyone can hear the true potential of his amps. Synergistic research has recently started selling black fuses (with even better sound) for $120 each and I will be be upgrading to these black fuses soon. Have a look at "synergistic red fuse" in the Amp and Preamp forum. I have no connection with Synergistic research and the only reason I am making this post is that I am a fan of Odyssey power amps. Good luck
Fuse directionality is not something exclusive to only high-end fuses. I
found that even cheaper fuses have a preferred direction. One way to
find out is to look at the cap ends with a magnifying glass. I found
that the majority will have the power rating stamped on one end, and the
other will usually have an assortment of symbols. Yes, I found the OEM
fuses even sound better in one direction, but not the same as the
high-end ones. I have the Hi-Fi Supreme fuses. Before plunging, I
tried ceramic fuses of the same rating as the OEM. They sounded a bit
smoother than the OEM. I simply diagrammed on a paper the direction
using the cap's indicators. So far, its been consistent for each fuse.
They key is, one direction will sound smoother in comparison.
What you are most likely hearing is the warm-up of the unit after its been powered down in order to replace the fuse. I think you will find that this is repeatable, regardless of which direction the fuse is installed. This is an excellent example of expectation bias.
"What you are most likely hearing is the warm-up of the unit after its been powered down in order to replace the fuse. I think you will find that this is repeatable, regardless of which direction the fuse is installed. This is an excellent example of expectation bias."
No, actually it can’t be expectation bias or warming up of the component, inadvertently scraping off the dirt or oxide from the fuse holder or even placebo effect. We’ve already been over that. You can easily eliminate those possibilities through careful testing. It’s due to the non-symmetrical orientation of the crystals in the conductor. I can provide a paragraph describing the Backfire Effect if anyone is interested. No strings attached. Ironically the reverse expectation bias might actually explain why some people can’t hear directionality.
No, actually it can’t be expectation bias or warming up of the
component, inadvertently scraping off the dirt or oxide from the fuse
holder or even placebo effect. We’ve already been over that.
Well actually it totally can be; just because 'We've already been over that' (which 'We' haven't by any means) does not make it so. Some more gullible types might be taken in by that though.
Occam's Razor applies- the complex explanation being the one you often give; expectation bias or warmup- both being **much** simpler explanations.
Otherwise simply must be ready for the sale on bridges in Brooklyn.
Just in case there is any issue here- most of these fuses are simply gold-plated versions of exactly the same fuse that you can buy off the shelf. The element does not get treated- its the gold on the ends that gets added. So there is no mechanism to allow for directionality.
Has everyone on here who is saying there is absolutely no sound difference between stock fuses and the boutiques ones actually tried them? Just because one has the means to afford the best equipment in the world doesn't mean they can hear well; know many with gear more expensive than mine that can't hear for you know what. Just saying I'm hoping everyone has at least tried them; if you have and you didn't hear any difference then hopefully you didn't spend too much on your equipment because don't all solid state amps sound the same anyway? They don't so lets don't go there but many believe they do even if they measure the same on the bench right? That is possible to build two completely different amps, by two different manufactures that measure almost identical isn't it, but they should sound they same right? How can that be they could sound different? Bust out the Kool-Aid... Oh Yeah.
Heard all the logic how it makes no sense how something so small with this and that material; yeah we all know what and how a fuse in constructed, can make any difference. So this same logic has to hold true for the same for resistors, diodes and etc that say Emerson uses is what the big boys use? Come on man; these components are so small how can they make a difference with the similar materials in them? I know they do make a difference and understand these components do cost much more and the boutique manufactures are using them and that is part of the cost difference between say nice NAD amp and a Pass. Sure much of it is circuit design but surely these small components have to make up part of the sound difference or why couldn't NAD build a much cheaper amp to crush any Pass for much less? Before I continue I do want to apologize for anyone using anything by Emerson in their main system and I'll be the first to say don't switch out the fuse because it will not make a difference there.
I for one am using aftermarket fuses and do hear a difference. Being a percussionist I can hear the difference between different cymbal manufactures on the same weight and size of a similar cymbal because I have over the years trained myself to know what to listen for; nothing special here, just that many musicians learn how to listen and just like in the Audiophile world many musicians don't as well.
Actually I'm more interested if the OP has dropped the fuses in the amp mentioned and what their ears tell them.
For the record I do not work at Emerson, NAD or Pass or in anyway affiliated with them. Thought this thread was getting a little tight so hopefully someone had a little fun here.
I don't think there is any fuse that doesn't have a direction that is best. Even when Syn. Res. zapped their fuses both directions on direction always sounded best. Why if there are real scientist here can they not explain why. The nonsense that it is AC current going through them is obviously wrong.
Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction. If you don't bother, I will not be surprised, but I really don't care. It is everyone loss if you don't switch your main fuse on your preamp and listen to it both ways.
Hi-Fi Tuning used to claim no directional difference, but I tried 10 of them and they were all the same direction. The same with the original SR fuses. Even cheap fuses are directional. I suspect the place to look is in how the fuses are made.
The nonsense that it is AC current going through them is obviously wrong.
tbg, are you suggesting that fuses don't have AC current going through them?
Just a FWIW for you: real engineers have to by definition also be scientists. If we abandoned the scientific principle it would be impossible to design and build anything.
"
Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction".
No dude, there's no science at all -- math is savvy and sufficient enough to conclude and judge. Forget the math, just use trivial elementary school arithmetic -- of course if you're savvy enough to do that.
Adding/Subtracting 5-digit arbitrary numbers without using calculator AND/OR paper-pen trains memory and logic.
When smart people seemingly speak before thinking there is often some agenda at play.
Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction.
Well Geoff is supposedly a theoretical physicist and gave an explanation until someone comes up with something better.
There is supposedly this thing called math involved that can be used to communicate how theory works to the engineers that will actually make something useful. Like Einstein did to communicate his theories to those who eventually ended up making the bomb. Theoretical physics sounds cool but not an excuse to just make things up and sell them as real or meaningful. I’ll just put my trust in the good EEs current understanding especially having already wasted time trying to hear a difference.
Meanwhile its the engineers that take the best accepted "theories" and actually make things that work. So just take that for what’s it’s worth all. Like Atmasphere said (paraphrasing) "no good engineering without good science to support it".
Stop being engineers, real scientists would be finding out why there is a direction.
It’s these engineers and scientists that use all the laws of electronics to design every piece of equipment in your system, and if by some chance you have a piece of equipment that is not designed this way, I strongly suggest you throw it in the garbage bin.
I ask anyone to quote JUST ONE engineer, scientist or audio designer of any note (that is not aligned to making dollars from the gullible) that fuses are directional.
I have no doubt about boutique fuses being better than stock simply from my own experience. What I never got my head around was directionality. I really didn't want to participate in this thread but it occurred to me that I had to replace more than a few fuses in my Marantz Reference components (about 6 or 7) and the odds that I put them in correctly, all oriented in the right manner, the first time around, are nigh well near impossible.
Back then directionality was not as hot topic as it is now. I just made sure they were all facing the same direction using whatever it was that was inscribed on the casing.
The sound I have right now is wonderful and though tempting at times (due to threads like this) I'd never tamper with them again.
I do hope jsbach will give a sonic report on how his new fuses sound and if he heard a difference in the direction they are installed.
I personally enjoy evaluating and trying new products. I do not hesitate to return them if they do not improve my system's sound. I also give the seller my observations on the changes I noticed. I have found most of the seller's to appreciate the feedback.
Maybe Australian audiophiles are more insecure than audiophiles raised in Texas. There is always someone in line at the return counter at the Walmarts in Texas!
nonoise2,132 posts04-12-2016 7:00pmI have no doubt about boutique fuses being better than stock simply from my own experience. What I never got my head around was directionality. I really didn't want to participate in this thread but it occurred to me that I had to replace more than a few fuses in my Marantz Reference components (about 6 or 7) and the odds that I put them in correctly, all oriented in the right manner, the first time around, are nigh well near impossible.
I learned my lesson and always ask designers for the correct direction.
Once a new fuse sounded better installed in wrong direction. System sounds good but seems out of phase. Friends notice the same and new fuse was never
brought up or crossed my mind . Then corresponded with several owners of the same component and they all heard same with fuse in wrong direction. I reversed direction, still sounds tight but after more hours, it opened up and sounded right again.
This wasn't the case in all components but usually with higher quality components.
I'm not debating after market fuses, power cords or anything if they are used as such and are to the standards.
What I queried was that you had to "ask" the manufacturer, and that it was not stated in any doc or on their website about the fuses being directional, as this could be liable.
And I still challenge any member to show a publicly seen doc that a manufacturers fuse is directional.
"And I still challenge any member to show a publicly seen doc that a manufacturers fuse is directional."
ill take that challenge. The measurements of many different fuses in terms of directionality are provided on HiFi Tuning’s web site. Stock fuses, HiFi Tuning fuses, other fuses, they’re all directional. For both DC and AC circuits. Hel-loo! Furthermore the effects of cryogenic treatment are also measurable and contained in the HiFi Tuning data sheets. Isoclean fuses also come with a directional arrow.
Regarding the aforementioned directionality-related measurements provided by HiFi Tuning, I recently posted the following in the ongoing Littelfuse thread:
Regarding the measurements described in the HFT paper (which Nonoise was
kind enough to link to earlier in this thread) which purport to support
the notion of fuse directionality:
1)Resistance measurements
related to directionality were provided for 16 different HFT fuses,
having current ratings ranging from 1.6 amps to 20 amps, as well as for a
few competitive fuses and standard glass and ceramic fuses (the
specific make of the "standard" fuses being unspecified). The
differences in resistance for the HFT fuses in the two directions ranged
from 0.000002 ohms to 0.000120 ohms. The differences in resistance for
the competitive fuses were a bit greater in some cases, with the worst
cases generally being the standard fuses, for which there was one
isolated case having a measured difference of 0.005200 ohms.
IMO those numbers are so miniscule as to be:
(a)Laughable.
(b)Very
possibly attributable to changes in the voltage of the battery in the
measurement meter, from measurement to measurement (each measurement
imposing a slight drain on the battery), and from minute to minute. Or
if the meter was AC powered, to the very slight differences in AC line
voltage that may occur from minute to minute, as various loads are
turned on and off at nearby locations.
(c)Very possibly
attributable to differences in contact pressure and contact area between
the meter’s probe tips and the contacts on the fuse. The paper presents
separate measurements of fuse resistance as measured in a fuseholder
(for just one direction), indicating that the direction-related
measurements were performed by touching the meter leads directly to the
contacts on the fuse.
(d)Perhaps even contributed to by
differences in the resistance of the measurer’s body, that would have
been paralleled with the resistance of the fuse if he or she had fingers
on the probe tips and/or the fuse contacts while the measurements were
being taken.
(e)If Geoff’s comments about all wires being
significantly directional are to be believed, then these differences
would be totally swamped by both the resistances and the alleged
direction-related resistance differences of the vastly longer associated
wiring. In the case of mains fuses, that would include the power
transformer and the power wiring in the component, as well as the power
cord and the AC wiring in and outside of the house.
I’ll say
also that the comments I provided on the HFT paper in the "Fuses That
Matter" thread (linked to in one of my posts earlier in this thread) do
nothing to provide confidence that these measurements were performed in a
methodologically scrupulous manner, that would rule out the kinds of
extraneous variables described in (b), (c), and (d) above.
Al, thanks for your astute arguments, in fact HiFi Tuning agrees with you that the differences are quite small and they state that the small differences do not seem to explain the (large) differences in sound between the two directions. By the way, HiFi Tuning is not the only aftermarket fuse co. to mark their fuses with arrows so it's not as if HiFi tuning is the only one company claiming directionality of fuses. So, you cannot actually win the argument by attacking HiFi Tuning. Be that as it may, I feel it’s only fair and relevant to point out that audio interconnects - and here I’m referring to unshielded ICs so as not to confuse anyone - are directional.... and easily demonstrated to be directional. Just like fuses, it’s how the wire of the conductor is manufactured that determines it’s sonic directionality. That directionality (of the metal conductor) is precisely why many high end audio cable manufacturers provide ARROWS on their cables to indicate the direction that current is flowing between components. It doesn’t take much of a lead of faith, except perhaps for died in the wool skeptics, to see that ALL wire is directional.
Yes you are correct some interconnects can be directional, ones that have +&- conductors with a shield, that’s only connected at one end, that end should be at poweramp.
But fuses are not shielded. And I still ask you or anyone else to post any manufacturers ad/doc that SAYS they are directional. "It’s all VOODOO" that you are promoting.
George, please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not referring to ICs with shields as that’s a different issue. I’m referring to ICs without shields. They are directional and have always been directional. And for the same reason that all fuses are directional. By the way I totally get the backfire effect. No worries.
This can also depended on how the sometimes many +- conductors what way they are twisted together over meters which have inductance, capacitance and resistance , there is only ONE conductor in a fuse that's only 1/2" long!!!!!!!!!!!!.
George, obviously unless the cable manufacturer keeps track of the directionality of all wire the result will not be satisfactory. If a cable manufacturer knows what he's doing having multiple conductors in a cable is not going to be a problem.
pop quiz, are stranded cables directional? Are power cords directional?
"Power cables have three wires, re-read my last post, sorry but you are becoming a lost cause, and can’t see the forest through the trees."
In my defense power cords can often have only two "wires." Both of which are almost always stranded. And both of which, like all wires, are directional. Follow? As for the third wire, isn’t that the ground? I.e., it’s not really a conductor.
OK show us a power cord with two wire connection that has directionality advertised in the manufacturers POSTED docs/details. (not just an arrow on the wire.)
Some two wire powercords that have a figure 8 plug that plug into the back of low power devices such as cdp dacs ect. Can sound different if the figure 8 plug is turned around 180’. But that’s not directionality, it because the active v the neutral is fed into the mains transformer differently, inner winding v outer winding. A FUSE DOES NONE OF THIS!!!! It’s a 1/2" piece of resistance wire!!!!
Like I said Forest v Trees v geoffkait .
I relay my baton over to almarg/mapman, I’m sick of of this voodoo s**t.
"OK show us a power cord with two wire connection that has directionality advertised in the manufacturers POSTED docs/details. (not just an arrow on the wire.)"
What would be the point? If you’ve made up your mind already, and it looks like you have, nothing I say will change your mind. That’s the beauty of the Backfire Effect. The more evidence is presented and the longer the debate continues the more convinced the skeptic is that’s he’s right. Happens all the time. He just continues to demand proof. Prove it, prove it! All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die. That's what make the wire directional sonically. Make sense? So for stranded cables each tiny little strand is directional, and the entire bundle of strands is also directional. Follow?
All wire is physically asymmetrical due to being pulled through the final die.
Ok now that you've said this, show where this is quoted that a 1/2" piece of resistance wire is directional.? Or is it your voodoo thought on the subject, and is not quoted anywhere else by any manufacturer of their fuse product?
Perhaps the following attempt at a summary of the fuse directionality debate would be constructive at his point. Or perhaps it won’t be, but I’ll attempt it anyway. The summary reflects comments that have been made in all three of the fuse threads that are currently ongoing:
1)Three different experienced designers of very well-regarded audio electronics have said, as one of them put it, that the reason fuses are directional is "the vivid imagination of audiophiles."
2)Another experienced designer of very well-regarded audio electronics who has not been participating has been cited as eschewing fuse upgrades altogether.
3)A number of others having extensive experience as musicians, professional sound engineers, and audiophiles have expressed similar viewpoints.
4)One experienced designer of defense electronics (me) has expressed significant skepticism (limited only by respect for perceptions that have been reported by a few members he considers to be particularly credible), and has emphasized that it is very easy in audio to attribute a perceived difference to the wrong variable (with the variable that is actually responsible often being very non-obvious), and has explained why measured data that has been presented in support of directionality is misleading and meaningless.
5)Numerous users of SR and other audiophile-oriented fuses have attested to their directionality.
6)A claim has been made that **all** wire is significantly directional. The aforementioned experienced designer of defense electronics has indicated that if that is so, since cable resistance, inductance, capacitance, skin effect, proximity effect, dielectric absorption, propagation delay, and the degree of pretty much all other cable effects are proportional to length, then the alleged directional effects of the AC wiring in components, and in the windings of the power transformers in those components, and in their AC power cords, and in the AC wiring inside and outside of the house (which are all in a random mix of directions), would totally swamp any alleged directional characteristics of AC mains fuses. So assertions of directionality in AC wiring and AC fuses cannot both be true.
7)As the aforementioned experienced designer of defense electronics stated in the ongoing Littelfuse thread, each individual reading these threads can and will decide about the issue for him or her self.
I find it ironic the extremes to which admitted subjective audiophiles will go in order to to claim that their perceptions are due to anything but subjectivity. That’s classic -- apparently subjective audiophiles are embarrassed by their subjectivity. Hence the need to concoct exotic harebrained technical explanations in an attempt to justify and explain what they hear.
Technicians that are also audiophiles use/calculate different technical assessment properties. Then make subjective listening assessments, to which sound better of those technical differences.
There is no VOODOO, praying to the hifi gods or waving a big stick involved, I suggest if your equipment is designed like this, throw it in the bin before it blows up or kills you.
Al thanks for the recap. However the statements you provided, including second hand testimony, for the most, part are excellent examples of both Strawman Arguments and Appeals to Authority, both of which as it turns out are logical fallacies. Here is my recap of your arguments.
Strawman Argument
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1]
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]
This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining "battle" and the defeat of an "enemy" may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.
Allegedly, straw-man tactics were once known in some parts of the United Kingdom as an Aunt Sally, after a pub game of the same name where patrons threw sticks or battens at a post to knock off a skittle balanced on top.[4][5]
Appeal to Authority
Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]
In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]
A is an authority on a particular topic A says something about that topic A is probably correct Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]
"Ok now that you’ve said this, show where this is quoted that a 1/2" piece of resistance wire is directional.? Or is it your voodoo thought on the subject, and is not quoted anywhere else by any manufacturer of their fuse product?"
I just gave you two fuse manufacturers (HiFi Tuning and Isoclean) who have stated or implied (by putting directional arrows on their fuses) that, uh, fuses are directional. Did you fall asleep again?
Documented evidence would indicate the only real interest of some here is tooting their own horn no matter what. Not too hard to figure out. Its all out there for the reading. So kudos to those with useful information and with an interest in helping others understand things. It may seem like a waste of time sometimes but will pay off in the end.
George, it’s not clear who your last post was addressed to, but if it was addressed to the person who posted just above that post I think you may not have interpreted what he said as it was intended.
Geoff, thanks for the comprehensive response, although I’m not sure what the strawman argument was that I was attacking. BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to power wiring. While the same is also true for analog cables, it is not necessarily true for cables conducting digital signals. And in the case of digital cables, btw, I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that they might be at least slightly directional under some circumstances, due to reflection effects that may affect waveform quality, that may in turn affect jitter. That might occur if the cable’s "characteristic impedance" is not precisely the same at both ends, perhaps due to minor soldering differences in the two connectors. Directionality due to that kind of effect, however, would be system-dependent, unpredictable, and unrelated to the direction of any arrow that may be marked on the cable.
"BTW, when I referred to cable effects essentially all being proportional to length I should make it clear that I was referring to power wiring."
Nice try but there is no such law as you seem to be implying. Mapman will probably buy it, though. That’s a Strawman argument by the way, I.e., a statement of "fact" intended to win the argument. Perhaps you can commiserate with the defense electronics dude.
It's very often pointless to mention mapman. I tried to speak from Mark Twain's stand point to the school teacher of my children, but realized that she doesn't know who he is besides mentioning more classic American and other nations writers. It rang my bell that it's time to switch to home-schooling and take them out of school ASAP.
Evidence that nation going fooled and mentally depleted is obvious and very strong starting from elementary school and ending with powerful brainwash via magazines, commercials and news having not a single word true. I parent block news channels just like porn(porn is actually OK or I'd say much better).
I think there is a significant amount of truth in your assessment of the media and system in general which accounts for much of the USAs woes these days (ie maybe we’re not as great and perfect as we were taught to think as kids partly due to the dumbing down forces at play everyday) but remember that not everyone has been totally brainwashed yet so the good fights go on everyday in earnest as well as they pretty much have always at least as far back as I remember. The most important conflicts are often not fought with guns and bombs. the good news is at least we have a system that supports freedom in many ways. Nothings perfect.
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