DENAFRIPS DAC ---- Owner Impressions, Feedback, General Discussion, Questions and more....

BGA-DSP Board Install Guide:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/05/06/Guide-BGA-DSP-Upgrade?utm_campaign=9b01618a-f87c-41ab-98ad-b179a5f16465&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=6a6bbfad-aefa-4c9d-9edc-f0321a709747

My FAQ response:

Good to hear from you. Hope all is well with you.

Lets call this latest DSP as BGA-DSP. It has various improvements over the previous one offered before Nov 2019:

- Intel Altera Cyclone IV FPGA with more IOs

- Improved PCB layout

- Improved components, i.e. ERO caps from Germany

Here's my take:

1. If you own and are happy with the current DSP board now, you do not need to upgrade. The high res support (PCM1536/DSD1024) and functions are exactly the same compared to the BGA-DSP.

2. But as all audiophiles, we are OCD, we are perfectionists, we like to try new things. That's the fun part of our hobby. The BGA-DSP is inexpensive (we subsidised heavily on the DSP board offer), it could be fun to play with it. We certainly need more toys at this strange time since we have unusually more time at home :)

Please stay safe, take care!

Many thanks.

Regards,

Alvin Chee

www.vinshineaudio.com

Alvin told me that DACs shipped since Nov 2019 already have this new board. This upgrade applies to DACs purchased before Nov 2019. 

Over the last couple days, my Terminator seems to have jumped in sound quality. Maybe it's just the music I've been playing, but it is really sounding nice.

And I haven't noticed any hiccups in the past couple of days (listening all day while I work from home). Perhaps it was only specific recordings which were causing the problem, but I think I'm going to stick with my Bryston streamer for the time being. 

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/so/e9N7BSE7M/c?w=FfeOssCZoSKx5giYwC9HxHGuACK4dO9nkFySphccRV8.eyJ1Ijoia...

New Upgrade boards for Denefrips dac's

I've now had my Terminator for about two weeks and it's been playing more-or-less constantly since then (about 300 hours). Based on what I've read, I still have a ways to go before it reaches peak performance. 

At this point, it is sounding very good. Compared to my Yggdrasil A2, it is comparable or slightly better in every regard. On excellent recordings, it sounds fantastic. On lesser recordings, I still notice a little congestion and slight harshness. The biggest improvements are more energy in the lower frequencies, and more 3-dimensionality (is that a word?) to the sound stage. The presentation is very similar to the Yggdrasil, so I think if you like the Yggdrasil, you'll probably be quite happy with the Terminator. 

I do have one issue though. Connected over AES/EBU, I am noticing an occasional hiccup (skip) in the music. I am pretty sure that this is because the Denafrips DACs buffer the digital data in a FIFO and reclock it using an internal clock. This helps to reduce jitter, but if the source clock and internal clock aren't perfectly matched, eventually the FIFO will overflow or run out of data. I am using a Bryston BDP-2 streamer with the upgraded audio board, so I think this is a fairly decent streamer. 

This issue has occurred when playing local files as well as Tidal streaming, so I don't think it's a Tidal issue. I'm using a NUC running Roon ROCK as my server, with a wired ethernet connections throughout.

This isn't a huge problem, in that I've only noticed this skip maybe a half dozen times since I've had the DAC and I've been listening 7-8 hours a day since I'm working from home.

As I'm typing this, I remembered that I adjusted the settings in Roon to do sample rate up-sampling (which does slightly improve the sound) about a week ago. I don't remember hearing the skips before then. This would, of course, put more stress on the FIFO buffers inside the DAC since there are a lot more samples to deal with. 
 
Certainly one solution to this is to switch to USB input, but my Bryston doesn't have USB output, so I'll have to decide how to proceed. 

Hello Alvin
That does help and is reassurring.
Thanks for the prompt reply.

Hello @jb45 ,

There is no US service center at the moment. DENAFRIPS products are modular design. Repairs involve boards swapping, with minimum soldering required. We don't recommend complex components-level repair. Board swapping is straight forward, it can be done fairly easily. 

There are few options to get the DENAFRIPS products serviced:

1. We will work with you to identify the problem. For example, Terminator DAC comprises of 

- Front control board
- DSP board
- Main DAC board
- PSU
- Transformers

Once we identified the fault, say for example, the likelihood is the DSP board acting up, we will ship the DSP board to you to replace. Guide to replace will be provided, similar to this: 

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2019/06/18/How-To-Upgrade-DSP-Board

Or, alternatively, you may

2. Ship the product back to us, we will fix it and return it to you. Our warranty policy: https://www.vinshineaudio.com/warranty

Hope this helps!

Stay safe,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com

Is there a US repair center for warranty and non warranty repairs?  or are all repairs done at Vinshine Audio?

Thanks

did not listen to all dacs, but did compare to scarlatti which was better, but also a lot more cash.

even at 2x-3x  the price  point for each of the respective denafrips dacs, you are not going to beat them.

For you denafrips owners, what other dacs did you find the denafrips performed better than? Either at a similar level or more pricey?

Alvin,
Thanks for the response. Bluesound does not have that option, but Tidal does. Let me explore a bit and see what I can do. Regardless, I can use the MQA output from the Node 2 for my headphones and the Ares for CD quality and as a replacement for the dac in my Oppo.

I have tried the USB connected directly to a fanless low powered endpoint and the results on the USB are outstanding, note internally the DAC will buffer and reclock the signal, that added to the excellent built in power supply of this DAC makes the system "less dependant" on external factors like USB quality, Linear Power supplies for the equipment etc.
That said using good USB cables, LPS powered NUCs (I have a Nuc like yours with a JS2) etc. will improve thngs

Last week, I decided to take the plunge and order a Terminator to replace my Yggdrasil (A2 Gen5 USB) that I've had in my system for a little over two years. I've had a chance to compare the Yggy with a few other DACs (similar and lower priced than the Yggy) and to my ears and in my system, the Yggy always came out the clear winner.

I've been listening to my system a LOT more in the past several weeks since I've got my home office set up in the same room as my 2-channel system. I've really been enjoying what it can do, but like most audiophiles, I'm always looking for ways to improve it. 

There wasn't anything in particular that I felt was missing with the Yggy. On good recordings, it sounds spectacular. Perhaps the only thing that bugged me was that lower quality recordings were considerably less enjoyable, and there is a lot of classic rock that just doesn't sound that great. I'm not sure if the Terminator is going to help, but we shall see. 

The Terminator arrived yesterday afternoon, so I don't have many hours on it yet. I'm hesitant to give any impressions at this point since it is barely warmed up, let along broken in. But right out of the box, I noticed more solidity and impact in the bass, even from my office chair listening position. I have not done any critical listening yet. 

I'm hoping to get some feedback from current or previous owners. I currently have my DAC connected to my Bryston BDP-2 over AES/EBU. I have a NUC8i7 running Roon ROCK in another room. I'm considering putting the NUC in an Akasa fanless case with a good linear PS and connecting it via USB to the DAC. This would require investment in a good PS (which I will probably do anyway) and a good USB cable. 

Has anyone tried both AES (or SPDIF) and USB and found USB to be better with the Terminator (or other Denafrips DACs)?

@jerseytrain, my apologies for the delay. It has been a challenging time, unprecedented. As soon as i have an update from DENAFRIPS.

@jaytor , spot on! You explained it much better than i do. Much appreciated!

@tony1954, DENAFRIPS DAC doesn't support MQA. Can you disable this in the Bluesound?

Stay safe,
Alvin

I just received my Ares II yesterday and although it sounds great, there is an issue playing MQA content from Tidal. This was not an issue with my previous dac (Simaudio Moon 100D).CD quality from Tidal plays just fine, but when an MQA quality track plays all I get is a few random clicks and pops, but no music. Kind of like listening to Yoko Ono. I am curious if anyone else has had similar issues. I am running the digital output from a Bluesound Node 2 via coaxial cable to the Ares II.

The following explanation is based on my understanding of how the Denafrips DACs work from reading their documentation and other postings. I could be wrong in my understanding of the issue.

The Denafrips DACs use an internal reclocker when the DAC is connected using SPDIF or AES, which uses a small FIFO to buffer the PCM samples before they are clocked out using the internal clock to the R2R DAC. 

SPDIF (and AES/EBU) assume that the source controls the clock, but as we all know this can introduce jitter resulting in poor performance. By buffering the data and reclocking it, the DAC can all but eliminate the issues with jitter, but this only works well if the source clock is close enough in frequency to the DACs reference clock such that the FIFO can handle the timing differences for the duration of the stream.

If the source clock is operating at a significantly different frequency from DAC clock, or the time between resetting the buffer is too long, the FIFO will either overflow or run out of samples and you'll get a drop out or stutter. 

The iPurifier is doing essentially the same thing, but it probably has a deeper buffer than the Denafrips DAC, and/or is smarter about how it uses its buffer. It also likely has a better clock than the Node 2i (or at least is matched better to the DACs internal clock) so the DAC is not having the same issue buffering the data in its internal reclocker.

There may be ways to improve the problem in the DAC's firmware by being smarter about how the FIFO is used (starting the reclocking sooner or later depending on whether the source clock is faster or slower than the DACs reference clock), or perhaps there is a way to increase the FIFO size (if it's implemented in RAM) if the clocks are significantly off. 

Assuming this is the issue, this problem will not occur when connecting the DAC over USB since the DAC is in control of the timing in this case instead of the source. 

But I also think in @snafujg's case, it's more likely an internet/Tidal issue since he didn't have problems streaming local content and the internet has seen significantly increased streaming demand over the past several weeks due to so many people sheltering at home. 

Alvin is well aware that there are issues with connections to Tidal and Quboz via the Blusound Node 2i. I bought a Pontus dac with the new DSP board from Alvin and Vinshine Audio in October 2019 and have been messaging him monthly about firmware updates that he's promised from Denafrips. Sorry to air my dirty laundry.

From the beginning I was getting constant skipping and dropouts via a SPDIF cable between the dac and Node. Quoting a message from Alvin in November 2019:

"The issue of skip in split second was due to fifo buffer clock sync with source's clock mismatch by split second, hence the dac skip.This doesnt happen to all source, some sources clock has larger different with denafrips dac, so it will skip when the time sync is out.
I am pushing a firmware fix to address this​"​

​Alvin seems to be like a great guy to deal with but saying its a network issue seems disingenuous. I use a direct ethernet cable connection to the Node and have 200mb/s download speed. It's not Alvin's fault, but him being Denafrips only dealer, there should be a firmware update after 6+ months. I wonder what my system could sound like without all the skipping and dropouts. Skipping happens with every listening session and dropouts have to be resolved by turning the dac off then back on. 

What helped with the skipping and dropouts was me going out the first week and getting an iFi SPDIF iPurifier reclocker. I shouldn't have needed to do that. But the issue still persist on a smaller scale and we still need a firmware update as promised. Hopefully others with the same issue can voice it here.

Good Sunday & Happy Easter! 

The frequent dropouts are likely network related. There are possibilities of deficient internet speed, high traffics volume, streaming services etc. 

A good way to verify this is like what others suggested, try to play local music content, or use a known good source like CDT to cross check. This helps to isolate and pinpoint the issue. 

Stay safe and healthy!

Alvin
www.vinshineaudio.com 

I spent about three hours of listening to my own music last night and had no dropouts.  This was playing from a USB drive I have inserted in the Node 2 running thru the Termy.  Most likely the issue is with Tidal itself as @jaytor suggested.  If I find any other issues I'll report back but I think I'm all good for now.  Thanks @david_ten for your suggestions.  I will try the FW upgrade once I get my laptop up.  

Perhaps @alvin1118 can comment.

I don't have the unit so I can't actively check. My advice would be to go through the firmware update anyways, that way you will be sure to have the most current version. 

However, I'll repeat what I stated above...Tidal dropouts are more likely being caused by something other than the DAC.

@jaytor , I will be trying with my own files today and will report back later tonight.

@david_ten , thanks for all your hints so far.  I've checked my router and it's on the latest firware.  Same thing with my Blusound Node 2 that serves as my streamer to the Termy.  My Termy was purchased new June 4, 2019.  I did get it used but was told it had the latest DSP board in it.  Is there a way I can check on the current FW installed?  I tried searching around for it but can't find the procedure to see what FW I'm currently on.  

@snafujg  In my experience dropouts for Tidal are almost always upstream of the DAC. 

However, just in case, make sure your Terminator is up to date with it's firmware.

Logging out of Tidal and logging back in may help. Make sure you are up to date on Tidal software and push an update if necessary.

After that, powering off your server and reiniating / rebooting may help. You can also look at updating the software for the your server.

Since I'm not familiar with BlueSound I can't address it, specifically.

Updating my Router firmware has also fixed dropouts, and it is the first place I now go to start troubleshooting.

I have noticed more dropouts with tidal in the past few weeks. I suspect, with so many people sheltering at home, that their servers are much more heavily loaded than normal. Have you noticed dropouts from local content instead of streaming?

Wanted to find out if anyone else has had any audio drop out issues with the Termy.  I bought one used a couple months back.  I have occassionally had issues with drop out, and it seems to have gotten worse last night when listening to a Fleeetwood Mac playlist from Tidal Masters.  Here's my chain:

Blusound Node 2 (using ethernet, not wifi) > Wireworld Gold Starlight 0.5m Digital Coax cable > Termy > BAT VK33SE > Amp > Revel Salon 2

I mainly stream from Tidal.  I do have some stored files on a HD attached to my Node 2 via USB.

The playlist last night being from Tidal Masters was MQA.  I know Termy doesn't support MQA, but could there be some issue there?  The Node 2 will do the first unfold and send the signal to the Termy.

I will try to do some additional troubleshooting today playing from my stored files, which I have on a drive attached via USB to the Node 2.  Will also try streaming regular Tiday, not Masters.  See if I can narrow down when the drop out is happening.

But in the meantime, curious if any other Termy owners have experienced any audio drop out issues.

Hello guys,

I've posted some video guides to demonstrate the DENAFRIPS DAC configuration/settings:

• Ares II
• Pontus/Venus (New DSP)
• Terminator (New DSP)

I hope the video guides are helpful!

Many thanks.

Yours sincerely,
Alvin Chee
www.vinshineaudio.com

@divertiti  The general guidance is that XLR out is the way to go. I used 1M XLR cables. I'm sure many are using SE cables, but if XLR is an option I'd go forward with it. Check with Alvin / Vinshine Audio as well.

Hi everyone, what is your experience with XLR vs. RCA output on the Terminator? Does one sound obviously better than the other? Is there any point going balanced if it's a short length anyway?

Just watched the OCD guy video linked by newguy007. What a structureless incoherent ramble it is. Mikey is his own worst enemy. Would YOU buy anything from such a deluded double talker as this wacko? I rather imagine there is a lot of truth to what he says about the conditions in China and I, for one, have never been inclined to buy gear originating in that country but if the point of the video was to CLARIFY why the Denafripps and Jay's Audio should be avoided to due to sonic inferiority then all I can say is he failed miserably. Please, Mikey...make us all a video explaining in those same concise and organised ways why the Rockna should justifiably command triple the Termie price based on its sonics and perceived build quality.

@mac48025  Tom, great hearing the Terminator is working out well for you!  I'm curious and excited to hear the Jays Audio Transport via I2S into the Terminator and hope to have the opportunity to do so in your system.

Looking forward to your ongoing reports.

@thenewguy007. Yea I hear you...was going to get a ares but never heard back after sending an email...did get the kinki int from him...which I like 

@timrvtl
https://shoutout.wix.com/so/80N1aRs7q?cid=9ff80106-f73c-4d75-ab65-de1a11dc213e#/main
Pure adulterated dealer BS. When he was selling it, it was the best DAC under $100,000. Now he isn't selling it & it's a mediocre DAC worth $1,800.
Who would be stupid enough to ever listen to this guys opinions ever again.

FYI: The latest licensed Thesycon Driver (For Windows PC) v4.82.0 is available to download here:

https://www.denafrips.com/single-post/2020/03/07/Thesycon-Driver-v4820?utm_campaign=dbdb3962-3149-410c-81db-f0a5426172bd&utm_source=so&utm_medium=mail&cid=6a6bbfad-aefa-4c9d-9edc-f0321a709747

I was lucky enough to have acquired David’s Terminator and I couldn’t be happier!

Its a superlative DAC that has transformed my musical enjoyment. I didn’t realize just how much information was on my cd’s......yeah, I still spin them.
I’ve been fortunate to have owned DAC’s from Border Patrol, Concert Fidelity, PS Audio and the Schitt Yggdrasil and the Denafrips Terminator brings more musical enjoyment to my ears........ by far. It has the uncanny ability to portray crystalline clarity and detail while being extremely musical. 

I can only imagine how magical the T+A that replaced this unit must sound and I’ll have the good fortune of actually hearing it in a couple of weeks. 
Thank you David, being able to purchase your Terminator, it has brought me musical joy that will be appreciated for many years. 
Tom

Thanks, uber. Likely on the T+A HV thread...

Congratulations David!
One heck of a digital front end indeed!
Love to hear your thoughts.
A new thread possibly?

@snafujg Thank you. The T+A unit replaced my streamer/player + DAC + Pre. Those units (actual cost to me and inclusive of the extra cables) came to 23K.

I’ll share my notes from the comparison in a separate thread (I’ll PM you when I do so). However, since the T+A unit is an ’all-in-one’ I chose not to separate out and focus on the DAC sections (head to head).

Wow @david_ten , that’s quite the piece you are replacing the Termi with. Congrats on the new device. Would love to hear your comparisons. At five times the price it should blow away the Termi.....

https://shoutout.wix.com/so/80N1aRs7q?cid=9ff80106-f73c-4d75-ab65-de1a11dc213e#/main


this is the one where Mike talks denafrips/jays etc...

This post is bittersweet.  I conducted an extended component evaluation over a month ago and just recently had the opportunity to acquire it. 

I've decided to move on from my Terminator. It has found a new home and the new owner is looking forward to pairing it with his Jays Audio Transport. I'm sure he'll be posting his findings in the near future.

I'd like to recognize Alvin / Vinshine Audio and DENAFRIPS for their support and for the joy the Terminator has delivered on, as a primary component in my system over the past two plus years.

Hopefully one or more members will carry this thread forward. I encourage you do so and I will continue to contribute, though much less often.

Here is the link to my system for those of you who may be curious about the recent changes.

https://audio-system-details.blogspot.com/

Slimdub14 Keep in mind that the Ares is a 2 channel DAC and will only work with the main left and right channels. A DAC is a digital to analog converter. You use it to convert any digital sources such as the digital out put of a cd player (to bypass the built in one) or a bluray disc player, a computer or a streamer or server. Then connect the output (the RCA jacks) to any available input on your Marantz. Not a phono input though. Also be aware that your home theater system may not be able to take advantage of all the performance that the Denafrips has to offer.

Good luck!

Oppo > Ares > Marantz

If  you guys do not mind  me asking a noob question. 
I just bought (used) the original version of the Denafrips Ares.
For those who have it, where in the chain do you add it?
My source is a Oppo 203. Prepro is Marantz 7703 and amp is Outlaw 7000x and speaker are a LSim 705 includng lsim center and 703 for surrounds.
Thanks for any guidance.

@alvin1118 FWIW, it would be nice to include a digital output in your new DAC.  I use that to record streaming services in real time on a DSD/PCM hires recorder with an AES/EBU input.

“Three DDC (digital to digital convertor) models are in development.”

That’s a very exciting news for current owners and those contemplating DAC upgrade in near future. Thanks for the info @david_ten. 

@dgarretson   That's correct. Three DDC (digital to digital convertor) models are in development.