Decware and SET Low Power Tube Amps with Hi Efficency Speakers

I ran Lore with Bottlehead SET amps and that was a great match but they were 8W per channel

Tekton makes wonderful speakers that are quite efficient, however you may want to look at the reviews in Stereophile.  Specifically the measurements as there is sometimes a gap between the published efficiency and the measured efficiency. The Pendragons have a published efficiency of 95dB.  If the actual efficiency is a hair lower, this would impact your amp choice.  There is a massive difference In headroom between 2w and 5w in this scenario.  
I have never heard a Decware amp.  I don’t know their line but will offer this advice.  
I sell a different line of SETs from Art Audio.  With Tekton speakers, we tend to recommend  amps with a hair more power and typically steer customers toward my Elise or Carissa which are 16w or 18w SETs respectively for the reason stated.  I have a hunch you will be disappointed with the amount of headroom available with any amp under about 10w with the Pendragons.  

I used to run a pair of Tekton Lores with my Decware SE84UFO2. I thought the combo was great until I upgraded to a pair of Omega Super Alnico High Output XRS towers and realized what I’d been missing with the Tektons. I think the little 2wpc Decware really needs a crossoverless speaker to live up to its full potential. I also have a 20wpc Decware Torii Jr, and this would probably be a better fit for Tektons. I actually prefer the SE84UFO2 to the Torii Jr in my system; it just sounds so real and natural. The Torii Jr is more forward and exciting, but I’m always aware that I’m listening to a recording.

I was also looking at Decware.  Steve Deckert emailed me the following but I have not had a chance for a call due to work schedule this week.  
From Steve D:The most popular pairing with the Cornwall has been the SE84UFO and SE34I.5, 2 and 5 watt single-ended-triode amplifiers.

Would like to hear from anyone who owns both decware amp and speakers.  Seems like a very good value option for those interested in an affordable set amp System. 

I’m new to tube amps having used only SS in a vintage 70s Pioneer spec system I’ve been ruining for a long time.  I held out upgrading to anything new or better telling myself at this point in the game my ears are too shot to benefit upgrading to new and better but, finally caved and purchased a pair of Klipsch CW IVs and a cheap low power Chinese tube amp to use as a placeholder while I learned more about tube amps. 

I understand lots of people pair the CWs with 2-3 watt amps with what they consider stellar results. In the guitar amp world there is usually a sweet spot you need to be running the tubes at even if running a clean sound (no desired distortion) so often times even for live performance players will use attenuators between the amp and speaker to drive the tubes but keep the volume down. 
Does this analogy hold with stereo amps so there is an optimum volume setting that is needed to drive the speakers for a better sound so a higher powered tube amp becomes detrimental to sound because the volume needs to be incrementally higher to achieve the sweet spot? Or, is it the opposite with stereo amps which by design, more watts just equals more volume and too much power is like using a Ferrari as a commuter car that you can never get above 35mph.  
Any links to articles or other would be greatly appreciated but I’m in a bit of information overload having been reading and watching YouTube videos on low watt tube amps so anyone with CWs and their experience would help. As an FYI, I’m primarily a vinyl classic rock loud volume listener.  Thanks

frustee

I have never used the headphone jack.  Just speakers

I am using Decware HDT speakers and the Torii mk3. The amp replaces Wright Sound Mono8's. I would never consider anything less than 8 watts with my speakers that are 95db efficient unless you listen at moderate levels and aren't looking for dynamics, realistic levels. There is a lot I miss with this 300b but it's all a trade off. Steve's low power SET would need something in the 97db range minimum to my taste and I listen fairly near field and love my jazz. 

I drive my Tekton Lores with a Decware Zen. The combination is pure magic as far as I'm concerned. Imaging is amazing.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

I’m running a pair of Zu Dirty Weekend Mk. II ‘s with the Clarity Cap upgrade and I alternate between my Dennis Had Inspire PSE Fire Bottle amp with built in Blue Alps volume attenuator, and a David Belles Aria integrated amp. 

The Inspire is rated anywhere from 16 WPC to 23 WPC depending on which output tubes I use and the Belles Aria is rated at 70 WPC.
 
I think I agree with earlier noted observations that the Zu’s definitely perform well with good solid state as well as good low power tubes. Right now I can’t really say which I prefer as they both sound great but different.

I was interested in Decware for a while and talked extensively with Steve Deckert about my speakers (AZ Adagios) and listening preferences. I went so far as to drive up to Peoria where Mr. Deckert set up an audition with several of his amplifiers, mated with speakers he felt best replicated my Adagios.

Long and short is I ended up going with a Hegel 160 integrated for the stronger wattage, but I do run Decware cables.

Give him a call at Decware. He won't try to oversell you anything.

A Decware thread titled " SE84 UFO mated to Tekton Pendragons"...

http://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1486758243/0

I"ve been using Decware amps for 20 years, albeit not with high efficiency speakers. I used the 2 watt per channel amps for a handful of years with 90 db efficiency speakers in a small dedicated room and loved the sound. Then  I fell in love with the Radial speakers from Decware and was able to have my system in a larger room and "live with it" rather than have it in a separate room of its own. I moved to the 6 watt amps and then the 25 watt amps. I settled into a pair of HR-1 speakers from Decware and using the Torii Mk III amp got great sound. Recently I moved to powering those speakers with the Taboo Mk IV amp (3 watts) and now the 25th Anniversary version of the SE84UFO3 Monoblocks (2.7 wtts per channel). This is a fantastic combination and I get enough power to drive the speakers to the levels I listen to in my living room.

The best advice here is to somehow manage to audition the speaker and amp combo you wish to have but I know that is not always possible at all. A Decware amp with a speaker it is able to drive comfortably is a wonderful thing. In the future I may try a more efficient speaker such as the Decware DNA horn or the upcoming larger scaled DNA2 horn speakers.

I am driving 91dB-efficient B&W DM630's with a Decware SE84UFO, which sounds like a dream.  With Tekton's, which are significantly more efficient than the B&W's, you should not have any volume or clipping issue even with 2 watts/ch., yet I have no experience regarding how well the Decwares pair with Tektons soundwise.

With a much more powerful amp of Decware (TORII mkII), I had similar results to larryi with ProAc D28's as well as Graham LS5/9s; dull and lifeless.  But the same amp rocked with my B&W's.  So, I prefer driving my ProAc's with a 50-watt push-pull Copland.

At the end of the day, I believe it is a matter of synergy between the amp and the speakers.  So, purely looking into the published specs do not tell much; they are rather a good starting point in what you are looking for.

To the best of my knowledge, Tekton has a very good return policy.  You might like to give them a shot and see it yourself if the pairing works fine or not, or to your liking...

I have been an owner of Decware Amps since 2013...a Torii MK IV (25 WPC), a Taboo MK III (headphone amp) and a pair of Zen Signature Mono-blocks at 2.3 SET watts.  
For the Mono-blocks I use a pair of Zu Audio "Souls" rated at 99 dB at 8 ohms. To my ears this is a match made in Heaven.  I have not had the opportunity to listen to any of the new UFO transformers but I'm sure they are nice. I also used a pair of Omega  Alinco Speakers with the monoblocks ...I think they are rated 93 dB.  They weren't quite able to reach loud levels as the Zu's can.  I much prefer the Zu's but admit I own two pairs of Omega Speakers and they perform much better with the 25 WPC Torii. I would suggest going to the Decware site and reading some of the comments and reviews on the forum. There are specific sections for each piece of gear...both in production and discontinued.  It is a great resource.  Mark.

JSM71 Thanks for speaking up, my interest is the sound, the volume available and the speakers are going to be Tekton Pendragons.

This is a great forum but the contributors here are easily taken off topic and distracted, I am less concerned with what's sitting on your audio cabinet than I am with answers to my questions, sorry folks but the question was SET amps from Decware and the sound, any experience you have and how does it pair with the Tektons, small room, near field listening.

I don't want to insult anyone, I want my topic to remain on put!

I'm using a Grommes PHI-26 in pentode mode (6 wpc) on a pair of PMC FB1i's.  The PMC's are rated at 90 db sensitivity with a pretty steady 8 ohm impedance. 
Wow, color me shocked.  I originally picked this unit up for headphones but it excels with these speakers.  Outside of ultimate loudness I prefer it to my Ultraverve 3 preamp/VTL MB125 combo.

Grinnell.  question for you.  When you insert a headphone jack into your Grommes will it mute the speaker output?  Mine doesn't.

Thanks, Frank
   

I recently added a pair of Klipsch Heresy III speakers to my rig and their claimed 99db efficiency allows the use of very low power amps...2 to 3 watt SE stuff is popular with these things…so I assumed my Dennis Had SEP at 12 watts per side would work well, and it does, allowing "pre-distortion" levels far louder than I need. I have other speakers hanging around that have various levels of efficiency, and, of course, sound will emanate from them with any amp. But the fact that every little watt from the first one will provide sort of maximum detail in an efficient speaker seems like a good thing, and by being a proponent of this approach myself, I'm trapped in the efficient speaker zone…it sounds so good I don't mind really, but when reading reviews of any less than efficient speaker I now think…meh…trapped…I'm trapped...

I tried both my little Zen and Mini Torii amps on my little Harbeth P3ESR’s. While the Zen actually drove them better than the Mini Torii did, both sounded exactly like Larry described. Not something that I think anyone would want to live with. As I mentioned before, you really want to be careful with the speakers that you match these up with and don't assume that they will work with every speaker no matter what the specs are.

@larryi  .. fair enough, no one should just accept raving fan boys gushing about any gear. The OP did however ask about Decware's low-powered SET amps paired with high-efficiency speakers. Decware has been around for quite some time now and their amps have been well-reviewed with appropriate speakers. Neither their philosophy nor their products are everyone's cup of tea but they are well-built and have great value, certainly worth a 30-day trial for those wanting to go down this path. 

BTW, I've used supposed under-powered amps with a variety of very inefficient speakers with surprisingly good results. My Mark & Daniel Rubys with 82.5 sensitivity sounded great with a 25 wpc amp as long as I didn't push it too much. Same with my MMGs. As usual, it's system dependent and personal taste.

Both the Decware and the ZUs respond well to a little more power than most SETs can provide. A lot depends on the room- how lively, how large, how close you are to the speakers, and your own tastes.

One dealer of ours was using our MA-1s (140 watts) on the Decware speakers but overall I would regard that as unusual- I really think in most rooms that kind of power is way overkill. Here at the shop we ran our ZUs with our smaller amps which are 30 or 60 watts and the results were outstanding.

I run a Decware Mini Torii 4 watt tube amp with 92db eff Ref 3A de Capos in 12 x20 room partially open on the long side so the speakers are 14 feet from me.  loud enough but not blasting, very realistic and detailed sound  feels like the npr announcers are in the room :)  and the music sounds great

have also use them with Klipsch Quartets-97.5 db  very different sound and gets loud, the Klipsch are now on a second system with a 2 watt Grommes SET/P amp

wtf,

Yes, that might be the case.  However, other similarly low-powered tube amps, such as the Audio Note Oto and a tiny Synthesis amp sounded MUCH better with the same speakers.  I am merely cautioning a prospective buyer to not automatically accept rave endorsement of this particular brand (or any brand).  It is not that the raves are dishonest, it is often the case that the person is encountering tubes for the first time and is so captured by the sound that shortcomings are overlooked or the person is unaware that other tube gear will deliver that same kind of sound, but with even better performance.

Harbeth claims that its speakers must be used with high-powered amps, ideally solid state amps, but, I've heard them used with quite low-powered amps and they sound really good as long as they are not required to play at extremely high volume levels.  I heard the 40.2s played with a fantastic 10-12 watt amp and the sound was fantastic.   

@larryi .. as I understand it the efficiency is too low with both ProAc's and Harbeth's, thus a bad match for Decware's line. Harbeth, for example, state in their FAQ:

We have a social responsibility to our neighbours (and to our own ears) and we'd recommend 100W per channel or so for those occasions when the neighbours are out. But for normal use in a small room listening relatively closely to low-dynamic music, 20 or 30W can sound loud enough. A practical compromise would be an amplifier rated at around 50W/channel/8 ohms.

Perhaps this is the reason for the dull and lifeless sound you heard. The efficiency of my Omega's is 94.5, which is on the low side for a 2 wpc amp. For me, the SE84UFO is anything but lifeless.

I heard two Decware amps that were at a local dealership (trade-ins).  I don't recall the models.  I was curious about how they sound (they looked good and the build quality was excellent), so I heard them hooked up to a pair of ProAc and Harbeth speakers.  This was a quick demonstration so there was no attempt to optimize the performance (no tube swapping, although the tubes in the amps tested strong).  The sound was quite disappointing--sweet sounding, but dull and lifeless and a little muddy.  I am hardly an expert on low-priced tube gear, but, I've heard much better from other reasonably priced brands, such as Synthesis, AudioSpace, and Quicksilver.  I hope they would do better with other speakers and perhaps with other tubes in them.  I don't have enough experience with them to pass any judgment, so I am only cautioning that they may not be the miracle bargain that some tout them to be.

I went down this path after years of curiosity. I started with the speakers and purchased the Omega Super 3i. I paired them with several amps before finally purchasing a Decware SE84UFO. The reported synergy between these two manufacturers is indeed the real deal. While this approach isn't for everybody, it's everything I hoped for. There is a rightness to the sound that is just captivating. Good luck.

I would echo seikosha.  Not every room and hi-eff speaker combo will behave the same.  Short answer to your question is that fleawatt SET can be magical.  I run a $140 Chinese 3 watt SET with my Zus in my bedroom and couldn't be happier with that system.  

I did try a Zen once and sent it back.  The first set of tubes distorted terribly.  A new set helped but I swear I could still hear distortion at full listening volume and given the amp's obvious limitations I didn't want to spend a bunch of time with Decware troubleshooting.  

That said, there are a number of Zu owners who swear by Decware.  And I do have a Decware ZRock that I pair with my vintage Sansui integrated and the two make absolute magic together, so I am not anti-Decware.

I also agree with seikosha that I often prefer solid state with my Zus, especially in a bigger room.

With the low powered high efficiency approach, it's all about synergy.  I have a Decware Zen that sounds fabulous with my single driver Omegas.  Up until I bought some Quicksilver Horn Mono's, it bested everything I threw at it including a custom made 2A3 amp.  There was a post just the other day on another forum comparing the Zen amp to the Coincident Dynamo and the owner preferred the little Zen.

With some Zu speakers though, my results are different.  The Zus don't really respond well to the Quicksilvers and sound better with the Decware however, I have to say, overall, the Zus just seem to sound better with solid state which is a big surprise as my Omegas definitely respond more favorably to tubes.

I guess what I'm saying is to make sure you can hear the combination that you plan on putting together and don't just assume that it will sound good.  Also, don't forget that room size and listening volume preferences play a huge role in this approach as well.

Good Luck