Decided to try a SPU cartridge

After the tonearm you will need an Ortofon SUT!

@jasonbourne52

Thanks for reminding me of the “Ortofon’s” SUT. I read that SPUs sound best with a SUT, but my Van Den Hul Grail SB is a “current” phono stage. Not sure if a SUT+”voltage” phono stage is significantly better.  I would ask the audio community, but I’m not optimistic that many have tried a SPU with a “current” phono stage. I do have a Lejonklou SLIPSIK 3 “voltage” phono stage I could use with the SUT though.

Groovemaster III is a pretty great value for new production. Of course vintage SME or Fidelity Research could be fun too...

I don’t think you can use an SUT with a current source phono stage. An SUT is a voltage-to-current converter. Regarding tone arms - a heavy arm like an FR or an Ikeda is a must for any SPU or low-compliance mc cartridge. Also SAEC arms!

nice one, hope you enjoy..

@kennyc 

You should be able to use a SUT into the MM section of the Grail.

The autoload sensing pertains to the MC input stage only.

i vote for Groovemaster for classic sound with SPU. old time, people used sme3012 but not the best i have tried and i dont think that is up to date for nowadays standard, SPU has quite of variant. please be aware of its spec. some of them are very low ohm, which cause you matching resistance with step up transformer . easy to get its own ortofon. but to me, it is NOT the best price and sound out there .

SPUs are typically very low impedance devices that work exceptionally well run directly into transimpedance phono preamps. Usually a perfect combo 🎶

The only caveat I can think of could the be use of a coaxial signal cable that may treat the +/- signals differently. I prefer a cable (e.g. twisted pair) whose equal outputs are just an extension of the cartridge pins.

Preferably a tonearm with an overhang adjustment such as SME’s Horizontal Tracking Adjustment base which I believe the Groovemaster II has.

While a conventional SPU has no zenith adjustment, a strong case for conical/spherical types, it never hurts to have flexibility for such pickups.

boothroyd

Preferably a tonearm with an overhang adjustment such as SME’s Horizontal Tracking Adjustment base

@cleeds HTA is Horizontal Tracking ANGLE (not adjustment) which IS the way to adjust overhang on an SME tonearm.

Oddly enough, the SME manual conflates the two.

And has been doing so since 1959 😉

HTA/zenith semantics aside, IMO the use of a standard SPU will benefit greatly from any tonearm featuring an SME style HTA adjustable base.

Here's more information on Horizontal Tracking Angle:

Your cartridge is in perfect alignment on the horizontal plane when a line drawn between the two contact facets form a straight line pointing at the center of the record.

Van den Hul also uses the customary definition of HTA here.

I have considered going the SPU route--so sexy and retro! But I cannot understand how the performance of an SPU can compare with a quality modern cartridge given the chunky mechanicals, high VTF, etc. How can they possibly be as revealing and accurate?

@cleeds on defining HTA:

The SME base allows for adjusting overhang, not HTA. Overhang and HTA are two different things.

I never implied they weren’t.

Overhang adjustment on any conventional radial tonearm will affect HTA - period.

Your image linked to the Audio Technica Headshell accurately displays how one must skew the zenith (HTA) in an slotted headshell when an adjustable HTA armbase such as supplied by SME is not available.

Awesome! The Ortofon SPUs are definitely on my TODO list. I've already got a few FR arms. 

Ditto 👍

Ortofon’s SPU Classic GM E MKII looks like my pick once they’re back in stock.

A SUT converts voltage into more voltage (Jason), at the expense of current, which is only one reason it would be nonsensical to drive a current driven MC section from a SUT.

@cleeds I agree completely.

I believe we’re saying the same thing if we consider HTA = Zenith.

I’m comfortable around the $3k range. So the usual suspects in this range is Thomas Schick, Groovemaster II, Sorane TA-1L, and used Ikeda 407.  There's also Ortofon arms like the RMG-309i and RS-309D, maybe used.  Then there's the Bokrand  arm which is a modified Ortofon arm.  So many choices. I suspect for a SPU, the sonic differences between these arms are small.

I suspect for a SPU, the sonic differences between these arms are small.

No.

Also, just to reiterate, if you want to play with SUT's, you can use them with the MM input on your Grail phono.

I use an SPU Royal N, which is the normal bodied version of the SPU Royal GM MkII, absolutely the most enjoyable cartridge I have owned, former cartridges being VDH White Beauty, Koetsu Jade, EMT JSD VM etc.

Whilst any SPU generally requires a massy arm for them to perform at their best, there is one arm manufacturer that the SPU's will work with that flies in the face of this rule, this being the Viv Lab's Rigid Floats.

When I bought my SPU I was up for an arm change as well, so I was demoed it with a Kuzma Ref313 and a Kuzma 4point, all using the same turnable, both excellent arms but when I listened to the Rigid Float 9" it was like the shackles had been taken off, the music just flowed and it appeared like the volume had been turned up. I bought the 9", but they work equally as well in the 7" and 13" which both being slightly different things to the party.

there is one arm manufacturer that the SPU's will work with that flies in the face of this rule, this being the Viv Lab's Rigid Floats.

Wow, you’ve definitely got my attention! This is exactly what I was planning on trying as soon as Ortofon had SPU Classic GM E MKII inventory again. With the headshell collet of the ViV Labs, I would assume a std (non 1/2”) SPU would also be ideal. 

From what I am hearing from users, seems like offset angle/zenith/HTA may not be the end all. Lateral stability in the generator from an absence of antiskating compensation makes for an experience normally associated with linear tangential trackers. May be a function of their ferrofluid damping? Seems like an interesting topic for discussion. Looking forward to investigating soon.

@dover 

Thanks for the info.  Trying to determine which SUT to purchase - seems like a daunting task that I'll likely try at a later time.  I have been eyeballing a Zesto Audio Andros Allasso SUT on sale now used for $2k.

@alan60 

Wow, thanks.  After very much deliberation, I was targeting a Kuzma 4point as the next tonearm purchase (in addition to a SPU tonearm) and was just debating on which tonearm wire so I reached out to Fremer.  You now report that the ViV is better for the SPU.  I have a Lyra Edna and a Koetsu Redwood Signature Platinum, do you believe that the Viv is superior or just different than the 4point?

FYI - it is reported that the Glanz tonearm may be the best for SPUs.  It runs ~$8k

I don't think HTA = zenith.  The term HTA is relatively unfamiliar to me but as defined here it is the same as "Tracking Angle Error", the angle by which the cantilever deviates from tangency to the groove, TAE is the term I usually use.  TAE or HTA is changing as the stylus traces the LP and the tonearm rotates on its bearing.  Zenith is relatively constant, if the reference point is the LP surface.  I It changes as the TAE, if the reference is the orientation of the stylus in the groove, but it is not identical to TAE/HTA.  I am not planting a flag here, but it is a good idea if we all speak the same language.  I certainly can be wrong.

This whole HTA discussion highlights that if you want accurate alignment, you should only buy

- cartridges with conical/spherical tips

or

- cartridges that have a nude mounted square shank diamond and the cantilever has been laser cut.

If you are spending $5-10k on a cartridge, spend another $100 to have it independently inspected by a cartridge retipper. I have seen several $5-10k cartridges with styli mounted askew/cantilevers mounted incorrectly ( rotated ).

I'm planning to have all my cartridges reviewed by WAM Engineering - I'm of the belief that because of cantilever and stylus manufacturing alignment inconsistencies, the best way to align a cartridge is to get the stylus angle correct (vs aligning by cartridge body and/or cantilever).  IIRC. the resulting WAM reports will tell me how much the stylus if off perfect alignment so I can compensate by adjusting the cartridge body.  I'm somewhat concerned that some SPU tonearms may not allow zenith adjustment if needed.

@boothroyd 

The Rigid Floats fly in the face of all known theories of cartridge alignment, if you are using a standard style cartridge like the SPU Royal N the Nelson Hold headshell is a thing of beauty. Remove the headshell and just pop in a full bodied SPU and Bobs your uncle. It is one of the easiest arms to set up, the only slight issue is height adjustment which is easily overcome by using playing cards as shims. 

@kennyc 

The Kuzma 4points are fantastic arms the 9" is a Pitbull terrier of arm, with the 11" and the 14" being more relaxed, for the 11" and particularly the 14" you need to use relatively low compliance normal bodied cartridges and you can only use Nude SPU's. Are the Rigid Floats better? It comes down your own ears.

Strangely whilst mine is a 9" it's positioning is very close to that of a normal 12".

A general tip with Rigid Floats whilst in theory they are free standing they do benefit from being bonded to the armboard/plinth with double sided sticky tape or even better and if you are really brave gluing it with a few dabs of epoxy. 

What’s seems strange about the Rigid Floats is that they don’t give the tonearm mass which would allow cartridge+tonearm compatibility calculations. Rather, folks seem to be are using lighter to heavy cartridges.

Before I went down this SPU route, I was planning to purchase 2 tonearms. Originally my top choice was the 4point, then the next was a Schroeder CB or a Reed 3P. After reading about the different but excellent results the Rigid Float will be my second tonearm.

For a Ortofon SPU G type cartridge, I wonder if using the 4point or the Rigid Float are better choices than the other ~3k SPU tonearms I listed previously.

I favor the longer ~12 inch tonearms for their potentially superior sonics , not so much their higher price tags

All - thanks for your help and advice

@kennyc 

I didn't think you can use an SPU G type with a 4point as the headshell fixing is not compatible.

Should you baulk at the rigid float a Schröder CB would be an excellent choice for an SPU N series, just make sure you order one with enough mass, somewhere around 20g or more with the brass mounting plate and order any fine adjustment options available.

I’m also running a Royal N but on a Schröder Reference and my expectations of a £1000 cartridge were far exceeded, once I’d got the setup tuned in. I bought the SPU as a stop gap and out of curiosity while I got my Transfiguration Proteus repaired but I haven’t been missing the Proteus and now it’s back, with a fresh stylus and suspension I’m in no hurry to fit it.

@yeti42 

I am certainly loving my Royal N, for me it just plays music and I am not missing any of the so called hifi elements.

In the UK I know people are changing there Kondo IOMs etc for the Royal N. It is a cartridge that is being championed by the designer and maker of Living Voice speakers, he has told me that it is without doubt his favourite cartridge.

cleeds, I finally found your definition of HTA, which you posted before my post about the difference if any between HTA and Zenith.  Your definition of HTA:

"Your cartridge is in perfect alignment on the horizontal plane when a line drawn between the two contact facets form a straight line pointing at the center of the record."

For a cartridge where the stylus is perfectly cut and mounted on its cantilever and the cantilever is perfectly straight (problems mentioned by Dover) and one of the conventional alignment algorithms is perfectly observed, then the condition you describe occurs twice over the course of playing an LP, at each of the two null points, where Tracking Angle Error = 0.  OK. That makes perfect sense. Now what is our definition of Zenith?  If Zenith = HTA, then it must refer to the orientation of the stylus tip in the groove.  That is not a conventional geometric definition of Zenith. Nor is it an aeronautical definition. (I consulted a close friend who is a pilot.)  That's OK as long as we know what we mean.

I am also an admirer at a distance of the Viv Float tonearms.  I'd probably have bought one already if they were not so costly, and if I did not have some questions regarding the rigidity of the pivot bearing, such as it is.  I have seen them for sale over the counter in Tokyo, at prices well below US prices.  Optional lengths seem to be 7, 9, 11, and 14 inches.  So one way to have high effective mass is to buy the longest one, but that would cause mounting problems on almost any normal turntable (too long), and there is the question of resonance of such a long arm tube.  If you worry a lot about Tracking Angle Error, TAE is much greater with any underhung tonearm than with a comparable typical overhung tonearm with an offset headshell, but my experience with another underhung, the RS Labs RS-A1, suggests one should not be concerned.  The longer the Viv, the less the TAE.  So that's another hypothetical advantage of the longer versions, if you care.  The less the TAE, the lower the skating force generated.  I would not worry about that, either. 

Okay, I'm taking a step backwards - I realized that the 4point and the ViV won't work on a SPU "G" but may likely work on SPU "N".  So I'm back to getting another tonearm.  I'm heavily favoring the Groovemaster II which I know works well with SPUs.  Also, I'll eventually purchase a Bokrand modified Ortofon arm to compare arms and especially because I like the idea of matching brands to my SPU cart.

I'm sticking with SPU "G" size because I want to compare on the the best SPU (hopefully my Century) to the original SPU.  I'm guessing that a new Ortofon Classic G will fit the bill.  Not sure how SPU "N"  compares to SPU "G" sonically, no incentive to experiment. 

Got a message from WAM that they don't evaluate stylus on SPUs - in retrospect I feel dumb/embarrassed for asking.  Getting a stylus angle correct doesn't apply much to spherical/elliptical stylus profiles as for a other stylus profiles.  Sometimes you just got to laugh at yourself.

I did notice that used SPUs don't state their hours usage.  Maybe SPUs are considered disposable and/or stylus replacement is cheap/easy?

Because of this previous thread, I picked up a used Ortofon SPU Gold which likely needs retipping.  The fun continues...

https//:forum.audiogon.com/discussions/mc-cartridge-mini-shootout-spu-koetsu-fr-ikeda

@kennyc 

. . . the ViV won't work on a SPU "G" but may likely work on SPU "N".

The ViV should work with either style. My plan is to try the “G” version SPU Classic GM E MKII, as soon as I hear from Louis, on a ViV.

@kennyc 

The Viv Lab's definitely work with SPU G's, just remove the headshell and pop in the SPU, although I would argue the Royal N sound's better than it's G equivalent the Royal GM II, and it's cheaper as well.

@alan60 

Thanks for the tip regarding the smaller sized "N" SPUs. I'll keep that in mind - maybe later I'll further explore optimizing the SPU sound.  

I like variety.  I'm in my 60s.  Because I started late my high end audio,  I'm kind of condensing my high-end audio experience tempered by my wallet as my remaining years seem limited.   The SPUs is a side interest as my main system is neutral linear.  I'm also building a fleas watt system to explore tube magic aka harmonic distortion :) - I purchased a 300B amp already and need to budget for a flea watt speakers.  

First of all I really love the SPU sound. Actually I own a GM E and a Synergy.

They give a fine contrast to the sound of my different DS Audio cartridges.

For the "normal" SPUs you should work with a SUT to get most out of them.

My Synergys don´t need that. They offer the best sound with a MC-phonostage

and between 33 and 47 Ohm.

The match of SPUs with a ViV Rigid Float is a perfect one. Balancing and

adjusting is an ease and they singing in the best possible way.

The reason why ViV is not mentioning the effective mass is the fact that

this doen´t matters. The oil bearing of the arm makes them suitable for

all kinds of cartridges. I personally tried many different cart from light

MMs (Grace, Victor, Ortofon 2m...), heavier HO-carts (Jico Seto Hori, 

Acoustical Systems Fideles...), lightwight MCs (ZYX), normal MCs 

(eg. Ortofon Vero, Ortofon Cadenza) up to SPU As and Gs.

ALL of them sounded the best way they can. -> perfect match

@kennyc 

IMHO you should be using an SPU in your main system. I am also in my 60's and have only just joined the SPU party having been down numerous other roads before. The beauty of the Royal GM II or the Royal N is that they use the Ortofon Replicant Stylus, which is a modern profile able to retrieve the maximum from the grooves, so you get the joy of what the so called 'old MC technology' brings along with the detail of a modern cartridge.

One question for those more knowledgeable about stylus profiles, I have heard the Ortofon Replicant Profile is the same as the Fritz Geiger, is this correct?

@dover 

Also, just to reiterate, if you want to play with SUT's, you can use them with the MM input on your Grail phono.

The GrailSB is a "current" phono stage.  Not sure if the MM inputs are "voltage" based which would allow a SUT.  My Grail is still boxed along with the rest of my gear. Awaiting funds for interconnects and speakers to complete my analog+digital audio chain.  Wife not to thrilled to see my audio spending resulting in boxes.  I have to change flooring (duct tape fix not good) so incentive to wait till done.

@alan60 and @racedoc

Thanks for your input.  I like the ViV arm since it's sonically different than other arms in a positive way.  It's very comforting that the ViV will work well with SPUs and other carts.   I was on the trail of a dedicated SPU tonearm - Groovemaster II vs a Bokrand modified Ortofon RMG309 (or RMG309i).  

I have a VPI Avenger that can accommodate 3 arms.  Besides the SPU, I was planning have to get at least another tonearm likely the Kuzma4point to accommodate my other low output non-SPU MC carts .  Although the ViV can accommodate all carts, I'll likely get both the ViV and the 4point - removable headshells for quick change (after the cart was previously set-up) seem very appealing. 

I just picked up 2 more used Ortofon GM SPUs - the E GM GOLD and the Classic GM E MkII.   The Gold's sonics reportedly falls between the Meister Silver and Synergy.  The Classic E will give me a taste of the early SPU sound.  So I'm pretty much done with sampling Ortofon SPUs with the exception of the Wood.  

I also picked up a used FR7-fz cart from Japan auction with a broken cantilever.  Happy I got it at a relatively low cost as I'll upgrade the cantilever+stylus anyways.

If I go SUT, the consensus is that silver is best  - unfortunately it's a significant jump in price vs copper.

@kennyc 

We will need an update once you get it all in place.

Will do. May be awhile though,  I have to change flooring and awaiting funds to complete audio chain as mentioned in my earlier post.