Back to the original points…
I wrote the 6moons review, and can add a few points to the discussion. First the 108 amp has more than enough power to drive the X-2’s to ear splitting levels without clipping. Led Zep at 90db is no problem in a medium sized room. The pre-clipping lights have never flashed, and I love classic rock at pretty loud levels.
As to the pre-amp, I spent the day last week with Herve Deletraz and the new pre-amp. Although I heard the pre-amp in an unfamiliar system, the sound was absolutely amazing. Circuitry is based on the same design as the amp, there is an obvious synergy. Some design elements appear to be revolutionary. This could be a world beater. I had Levinson 32 ref, Audio research, Placette, and currently VTL 7.5 so I have a pretty good frame of reference. But I will have to wait to get it to my system for the formal review. |
This is what I love about this hobby--one man's passion is another man's poison.
I will say it again--pick your flavor because in the end it comes down to my mantra--it is all about my ears and my wallet. |
Thanks Mmalim for getting the thread back to where it belongs. Enough already! |
By the way guys...I posted a related question on the Review of Dartzeel amp thread...not here as it pertains to something else...a question a I am grappling with. If you could find the time to take a look and provide some advice I would most appreciate it. Consider it as help to a fellow music lover/semi-novice audiophile (I just kinda know what I like when I hear it: no real detailed knowledge of theory nor why things are the case really). |
Thank you, Mmalin.
Please let us know the approximate date for your upcoming review of darT pre-amp, if possible.
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
Jtinn: you say to fmpnd “You are making this personal and seem to take the opportunity to do so in every post you can. I do not think that is very professional.” But yet earlier in this thread you said, “Jeff is as slimy as I have ever read. Totally unprofessional and an out and out liar.” I guess in your world that’s NOT personal?
Jtinn writes: “I don't know Frank, but it comes across to me as you are just trying way too hard to discredit me.”
Nobody has done a better job of discrediting you than you have Jtinn. Thank you fmpnd for pointing out the facts of the situation and to Nealhood for saying what needed to be said. |
I keep coming to this thread hoping to read some valuable information on this preamp but when it's all done, I think I will just remain content with the Aesthetix and CAT gear. I guess I'm just a little too sensitive to take on all that comes with being a D'Zeel owner.
As a prospective buyer, I would expect to hear a product's full potential in a broken-in model at a dealer or a friend's home. And then as an owner, it would not be an issue for me to wait 300-400 hours for the product to reach its full potential as I heard it before. With 20 hours a week of listening, this comes to 3-4 months. But as a reviewer, I would have no tolerance for this at all. Think of the logisitics if a reviewer had to do this for the amount of products constantly under review. It's simply not realistic to expect a reviewer to do this.
The same analogy holds for test driving Hondas; I want to do this with a car that has a little mileage on it so I can truly experience the car's full capability rather than have the dealer tell me I have to keep it under 50 mph until it has 2000 miles on it. And then as an owner, waiting to get to 2000 miles is fine as I already know what is to come.
First impression is key. If the manufacturer expects me, as either the reviewer or owner, to purchase that product or report in a most positive manner, it needs to provide me the opportunity right away to experience that product's full potential....otherwise I am very likely to go elsewhere. And this is the whole idea of "test drive" cars.
If there was ever a lesson learned here, this amplifier should never have gone out until it already had the specified burn-in time. There would have been no doubt that any reported findings were due to other issues and not that the amp was fresh out of the box.
John |
Jafox, I HATE to see you wallow in a state of contentedness so I will take the Aesthetix and CAT stuff off yer hands!! Oh how you must be suffering with no axes to grind or up-graditis fever!! But hey! I am an altruistic guy so I will take yer stuff and suffer for you!! No one should have to be right to be "content" in this crazy hobby ;-)
Actually, I am in the same horrendous condition - content! But it sure feels good! |
What concerns me about this thread more than anything else is not the name calling between parties (which IMO is nothing other than childlike) but rather the comments made about Jeff Fritz and his not breaking in this unit before his review.
Fmfrnd (who is also a reviewer for Soundstage)has discussed with Jeff his use of the unit for 5 weeks in the course of his review. Surely that must be adequate break-in. Notwithstanding this however I continue to read comments from JTinn, Mike Lavigne and Hooper that this unit must be adequately broken in before its full potential is reached. Now having said this from the very DarTZeel manual as revealed by fmfrnd it comments that out of the box with cold start this unit is 90% of its potential and after 5 minutes of warm up has reached pretty much as good as it gets. Further the manual states that these units have 4 weeks of factory burn in before shipping.
So what are we supposed to believe? Why are you people claiming that further and more extensive burn-in is required?
When I hooked up My Lamm ML 2.1's straight out of the box the sound then IMO is as good then as it is now. Vladimir Lamm states that all units get 80 hours of burn in at the factory and each unit performs to its full potential after 50 minutes of warm up. I have found this to be true.
My question then to you three is what gives?--how can you have your cake and eat it too. Why would the manual give false information to burn-in?
I would submit to you and to all who read this thread that listening over 4 weeks of burn does absolutely nothing further for the betterment of the unit (if the manual is correct). Rather what is changing is that of psychacoustics. Ones frame of reference changes and that "flavor" that we have all discussed changes. I have asked many times with new gear that I buy (taught to me by mentor)--"do I hear something different or do I hear something better?"
To constantly read how layers of the onion are peeled off and ones frame of reference changes may be OK but I must say that I am a skeptic based on fmfrnds recent posts.
Now that doesn't mean that I am denying you 3 the pleasure that you claim this unit gives to your listening experience but I am wondering if this could be a case of the Emperor's new clothes? Sorry to harp on it JTinn and Mike but the revelation of the manual for me was quite disturbing |
imisutar@sutarcom.ir: I understand why you feel the way you do, but there is a lot more to the story then FMPND leads everyone to believe. I responded yesterday and for some reason the response never made it to this thread.
If you read my earlier post, you will see that although I still feel the way I do, I do regret wording it the way I did. Please re-read this thread.
Fmpnd: Now regarding the darTZeel owner's manual and the 4 week break-in, the intention was to do just that. Once we were extremely back-ordered, it became obvious that the 4 week factory break-in could not be done and customers would not wait an extra month to recieve their amplifiers. I made everyone who purchased an amp aware of the it up front. No one had a problem with it.
As far as the pricing, I do not know where the 12k comes in, but darTZeel was looking for distribution and held the price as low as they could for as long as possible. Since you work in a bank, I am sure you are better informed than you lead on as to how much the dollar actually took a dive. I am sure if you do a little more detective work, you will find that the newer price corresponds directly with the decreased value of the dollar along with the added cost for the addition of the balanced connections and the DC compensation circuit.
You sure seem to be wasting a lot of your time researching all these things just to point out how evil I am. Don't you have anything better to do? If you continue to target me with these lies and exaggerations, I will certainly let the Audiogon community know the truth about you and your dealings with your so-called friends. If integrity is in question here, it works both ways.
I got a kick out of the previous post. You seemed so proud of yourself as if you had discovered the location of the Arc of the Covenant. |
The products that Jtinn represents always seem to provoke some sort of contreversy, and usually some vitriol. I remember when no one could dare suggest that tenor amps were not the best ever created. Not that I have any money, but I would certainly think twice about buying a product from someone who refers to someone with a differin opinion as "slimy" or who disparage a publication becauese they expressed their honest opinion. And what was that dreadful opinion? Before buying this product you should be sure to listen to some other products in the same price range. Actually, I wish more reviewers would be such "hard hitting" jounalists. |
Sjmgr asks “Please let us know the approximate date for your upcoming review of darT pre-amp, if possible”
Assuming JTinn, darTZell and the audio gods all fall into place; I should get the pre-amp next month. 6moon protocol requires a review turnaround within 90 days. I suspect it will take almost all of the 90 days because there are a lot of interactions to explore. For example how does the preamp interface with their proprietary 50 ohm “Zeel” connection to the 108s. Also, what is the synergy (or lack of) with a standard amp (my VTL S400) using balanced connections? It also includes a phono-preamp which needs comparison to my Walker reverence. I would guess for a February print.
To Oneobgyn: I discussed the break-in controversy of the Soundstage review with Hervé, his response was the same as JTinn – standard is to break-in at the factory. The decision was made for this batch was to get them into the hands of the customer ASAP, and were shipped without the break-in. |
Oneobgyn: I appreciate that you are somewhat in the middle of all this as you are friendly with all involved. I assure you that the promises I spoke of were made and that it is not true that Jeff used the amplifier for even close to 5 weeks. That is another fabrication on someone's part. There were a little over two weeks of possible use and the review was written.
I can also understand your apprehension, based on your experience, to believe that break-in on the darTZeel is real. Whether it is or not, if a reviewer agrees to the terms and does not comply, and writes a review, isn't that irresponsible when a manufacturer has so much at stake? Let's take the break-in out of the picture and just deal with the agreement that DC compensation was to be removed after a while of listening. Removal of DC compensation adds apporximately 10db of signal to noise ratio. Certainly a responsible reviewer and editor would make sure, prior to the publishing of a review, that they would have every opportunity to hear the amplifier at it's best... unless they had an agenda. Or maybe they was just plain irresponsible and / or negligent.
Steve, I assure you the break-in is absolutely real and verifiable and that everything I have said in this thread is completely true.
Isn't it funny how important it must be to Fmpnd to make me look bad that he would either go through the trouble of reading the owner's manual, which he would have had to download, or someone is feeding him this information and using him as a mouthpiece. Either way, it is extremely humorous.
It is a true shame that the thread was hi-jacked by someone who has a personal gripe with me and taking away from answering questions about a very special product. |
OB, the manual was written for the original version of the amp and not for version 'B'. if you read my first post in this thread; it describes the reason for the required breakin. when the importer ordered a large amount of these amps at once; the manufacturer did not have the facility to burn them in in a timely way. So the importer accepted the responsibility to tell the customers about that. also, version 'B' has the auto DC compensation circut that is also not mentioned in the manual.
it is curious that Mr. Fritz's review doesn't say one tiny word about breakin, and then in an e-mail i asked him directly about break-in and in his response he ingnored my question. now Frank tells us it was broken in for 5 weeks.....and still no word about the DC compensation.
either he followed the importer's instructions fully or he did not. i guess each person will have to judge for themselves what happened.
i posted this same message last night as a response to Frank's post but it was blocked by the moderator. why? i don't know. there was nothing inflamitory about that post or any others of mine in this thread. |
Oneobgyn:
To say that I "continually" make comments about how the DarTZeel requires adequate break-in before it's full potential is reached, you'd better go back through these threads, because I doubt if I made that comment even ONCE. I'm usually commenting on its sonic characteristics, not break-in requirements. Please don't put words in my mouth. A man of your obvious educational background should know better than that. |
Just when it appears Mr. Tinn that your posts cannot get any more illogical - you outdo yourself yet again.
First, lets look at the FACTS about this thread:
1. The ORIGINAL poster, Ubglub, asked a specific question about experiences with the DarZeel PREAMP (NOT the amplifier).
2. Hooper, NOT me, originally led the post astray by taking the opportunity, in response to a specific post about the Dart PREAMP, to bring up Jeff's review of the AMPLIFIER and called it "utterly ridiculous"! (why he felt he needed to do that when the question was about the PREamp - I could not figure out).
3. So, knowing Hooper is a nice guy, I simply asked Hooper why he claimed Jeff's review was "utterly ridiculous" and in his next post he claimed it was because, in his reasoning, Jeff was "irresponsible" by mismatching the Dart to the Wilsons claiming it wasn't powerful enough to drive the Wilsons.
4. I challenged Hooper's claim that the Dart was not powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. In FACT, JTinn himself later acknowledged the Dart WAS powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - thus giving credence to my challenge of Andy's reasoning in calling Jeff "irresponsible" and his review "utterly ridiculous." GO BACK AND READ MY AND HOOPERS DIALOGUE! AT THIS POINT THE INTERACTION WAS CIVIL, PLEASANT AND WE WERE HAVING NO PROBLEMS. REMEMBER, I DID NOT DO ANYTHING BUT CHALLENGE A CLAIM THAT MY FELLOW COLLEAGUE WAS "IRRESPONSIBLE" AND THAT HIS OPINION WAS "UTTERLY RIDICULOUS." HOOPER AND I WERE FINE AT THAT POINT AND DONE WITH THE INTERACTION AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.
5. Enter Mr. Tinn and his completely unprofessional post calling Jeff and Marc biased and Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" and "unprofessional" and then condemning Soundstage. SO EVERYONE, ASK YOURSELF THIS: IF HOOPER AND I WERE DONE AND EVERYTHING WAS CIVIL PRIOR TO THAT POINT, WHEN DID ALL THAT CHANGE AND WHO HIJACKED THE THREAD???
IN ADDITION, ASK YOURSELF WHO HAS BEEN UNPROFESSIONAL, WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM INSULTING THE DARTZEEL REVIEW IN SOUNDSTAGE AND WHO HAS DONE THE NAME CALLING?
I stuck to the facts of the thread, to Jtinn's actual language from the thread and to the Owner's Manual from his product to show where the real bias was and who had the real agenda. People responded to challenge Jtinn and his close friend Mike LaVigne even said he did NOT agree with JTinn's categorization of Jeff and Marc or their motives and that JTinn made "assinine assertions!" If his good friend even thought his bashing of Marc and Jeff was wrong and his assertions assinine, then either my challenge to Mr. Tinn's post was justifed or I guess then Mike TOO has an agenda to destroy Mr. Tinn.
However, here is Mr. Tinn claiming I hijacked the thread and that HE is the victim. LOL!! Ya gotta love Mr. Tinn's logic!
In closing, Mr. Tinn, may I suggest that if you are going to commit something to writing in a thread (and unjustifiably insult and defame a reveiwer and a magazine) or carry a product with an Owner's Manual that contradicts your claims, you may want to think twice before you post and know your product a little better since all I have done is point out what you and the Manual have said. Period! |
Gentlemen
I don't know what to believe any more
Mike
I am still in the dark as to what "delicacy, liquidity and palpability" mean in describing this unit. |
"IN ADDITION, ASK YOURSELF WHO HAS BEEN UNPROFESSIONAL, WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM INSULTING...."
JTinn be insulting...? Nah, couldn't be...
Just do a search...this thread ain't an isolated incident. |
Pointing out a paragraph in an owners manual as proof that there is no break in required, could be seen as a cover story by Jeff Fritz to justify his lack of effort in doing the review properly.
The truth will be hear when ... was the owners manual provided with the amp physically, or was it looked at after the review by download as Jtinn suggests? |
Frank:
Just to clarify: My "utterly ridiculous" comment was tied to a previous phrase in which I said that DartTZeel was starting to get some very good press in the States, the lukewarm "Soundstage" review excepted. And, while I may have started this whole thing by my comment about the review (which, as you know, I gentlemanly retracted), I claim no responsibilty for the ugly and nasty turn it has taken since. JTinn and others may respond to your post, and then you'll likely feel compelled to respond to his/theirs. At some point, someone has to let it go. It's getting increasingly bitter and vitriolic, and it's not helping anyone, especially the poor original poster who just wanted opinions about the preamp. And, as much as you wanted to summarize the chain of events, I really don't like the fact that my "mistake" is being brought up over and over. I already feel like enough of a jerk, and this is just making me feel worse. As I said, someone has to let this mess go eventually. It's already spun far enough out of control. Just my OPINION. |
After reading about the DarTZeel amp here and in various publications, I would certainly have considered purchasing it. Let’s face it, the buzz has been very good. But after reading this thread, I’d never consider buying the product.
Why? The U.S. distributor’s paranoid posts are just plain weird. His behavior can only be described as that of a schoolyard bully. Would I want to deal with a guy like that if I had problems with the amp?
Worst of all is the fact that the distributor was actually able to bully the manufacturer into selling his hapless U.S. customers units that had not even undergone the routine burn-in process described in the manual! Does that seem right to you?
As Jeff Fritz points out in his review, the DarTZeel is a fine amplifier. As Stereophile Magazine points out in their April 2004 Recommended Components issue, it’s a fine $12,000 amplifier. As a currency investor, I can tell you that the dollar to euro increase is approximately 1/32nd of the DarTZeel to DarTZeel increase. Knowing what I do now after reading this thread, would I buy a DarTZeel product from Jtinn? No. Would YOU? |
Hooper, I have one problem with your post. Try to let go of your allegiance to Tinn and take an unbiased look at my posts. NEVER have I said YOU caused it to get ugly. In fact I said JUST the opposite - that you and I were civil and had resolved the issue before Tinn got ugly.
Next, NEVER have I said anything ugly about DartZeel or you. You are implying here that I AM causing your remarks to be repeated over and over. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT? If Tinn would simply admit (like you did about your original post, and like Mike does he says he does NOT agree with Tinn's characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives) that he wrongly bashed and unprofessionally maligned a reviewer and his review THAT WAS NOT NEGATIVE, then this WHOLE thing would have ended. If Tinn keeps throwing out insults and refusing to be accountable for his written word and his slanderous comments and he keeps posting claiming that I HIJACKED this thread, then I have no choice but to defend myself by simply listing the FACTS AGAIN in hopes that objective minds will see that Jeff didn't do what he accuses him of, why Tinn bashed him and Soundstage and who OBVIOUSLY hijacked this thread.
It's funny how JTinn maligns me and my job by smugly asking don't I have anything better to do. Yet another double standard by Mr. Tinn!!! Then, how is it that Mike LaVigne isn't guilty of the same thing when posting his long posts? Mike, as a general manager of an Auto Dealership is even busier than I am. Also, why is Mike posting here at all? Because JTinn is his friend and he is trying to come to his aid - WELL THAT IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO WHEN MY COLLEAGUE WAS SO UNJUSTLY ACCUSED OF BEING A LIAR, BEING SLIMY AND BEING UNPROFESSIONAL! JTinn has made MANY defamatory and unsupported allegations and comments about Jeff in this thread. I have NOT done anything but point out Mr. Tinn's fallacious logic using his own words - something he obviously has no tolerance for as evidenced by his refusal to either admit (i) that he was wrong; or (ii) that you and Mike are also biased an non-credible for the same reasons he used to judge Marc and Jeff. He simply will not be accountable for those statements and his double standard attacks.
So, AGAIN, who could have NOT started this ugliness in the first place - Mr. Tinn. Similarly, who could have ended it with class and integrity by being a man and admitting his mistake? Tinn. Who continues to hurl insults and personal attacks instead of addressing his own words? Tinn.
Do the math Andrew. If you can be a man and admit a mistake, if Mike can admit that Tinn was wrong in his characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives - ask yourself who is the ONLY person who cannot do the same thing? Ask yourself who is REALLY causing this thing to drag on? Ask yourself who REALLY hijacked this thread! I think you know the answer as does anyone who objectively reads this thread.
So, if there are no more insults or attacks leveled by Tinn and his group, there will be no more responses.
PS - the reason that JTinn and Mike have stated that some of their posts have not been allowed should be illustrative. The reason all my posts are getting through is that I am sticking to a debate of the FACTS and the words used on the thread. If JTinn's post calling Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" made it through, can you IMAGINE how vituperative and venemous or unrelated to the issue at hand those posts must have been for Audiogon to prohibit them? |
Andy, I am sorry if this upsets you, but can you understand that since YOU posted the language below almost SIX months ago, and here in this post you call Jeff's review "utterly ridiculous" because the darTzeel can't drive Wilsons, that your original post NOW looks very sad:
"Posted by Quint ( A ) on March 22, 2005 at 11:40:40
In Reply to: Re: darTZeel posted by Jwm on March 22, 2005 at 05:17:20:
Actually, the amp can, and DOES, drive 4-ohm loads--and does so even better if you know the secret. When I mated the amp to my Kharma Midi Exquisites (a 4-ohm load with a few big dips), the results were lackluster, BUT I recently became aware of the fact that the amp has an internal switch that toggles between low-impedance and high-impedance operation. If I had known about the presence of that switch, maybe I'd still own the Kharmas.
At any rate, this talk that the amp can't drive hard loads is rubbish. It's not a muscle amp, but it's hardly a SET either. It can do whatever you need it to."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=68636&highlight=dartzeel&r=&session=
I HATE having to drag this out but every time someone claims that Jeff or Marc were neglient or that I am crazy for debating, their OWN words come back to haunt them. Darnit Andy, I like you and gave you the benefit of the doubt when you posted that the Darzeel could NOT drive the Wilsons but I didn't KNOW that you KNEW otherwise six months ago. WHY?
This thread HAS gotten sad so I am now DONE posting on this ludicrous thread. I am saddened that what I though was a good natured, honest debate in the beginning was otherwise. Anyone who has been following it, if they are not already nauseated or disgusted, will have already made up their minds what to believe.
JTinn, Mike, Andy, bash away. |
Frank Peraino: You say FACTS.
The FACTS are:
1. Jeff Fritz promised the break-in request would be respected. It was not.
2. Jeff Fritz promised to call me following break-in for instructions on how to remove DC compensation for increased sonic performance. He did not.
3. Marc Michelson promised the above requests would be honored. On these promises, I sent the amplifier out to them. Marc did not honor his commitments either.
4. You bully Hooper and he does not want to deal with the confrontation, so he takes the path of least resistance.
5. Frank, out of convenience for your stance, you totally ignore verication that the statements in the owner's manual were overrided by a decision by the manufacturer to amend a policy. There have been numerous reports by those who actually own and use the amplifier that atest to this.
6. You do indeed have an agenda when it comes to me. It is your obvious intention here and in other threads to demean me and the products I represent.
6. Mike Lavigne (properly spelled) was not happy with my "name calling" regarding Jeff and Marc. He stated so earlier in the thread. I acknowledged that early on as well when I stated:
"First let me say that even if I conveyed exactly how I felt in my post, it was probably in bad taste on my part and I regret stating it the way I did. Certainly I could have told the story and people would have been able to draw their own conclusions."
If you read Mike's other posts, he says the same exact things I say but does so in a more "politically correct way. Again, Frank, you are twisting statements around for your convenience.
Frank, your lack of credibility and your motivation is extremely well known. Maybe we should have MES, Hooper, Panorama, Bruce and others "testify" as to their experiences with you.
In closing, Mr. Peraino, may I suggest that you use your time in a more productive manner. I am sure Comerica Bank would prefer your time there being spent working on things they are paying you to do. |
Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here. They have one post in their record and that is here in this thread AND they happened to start on Audiogon the day they wrote the thread.
I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are.
Smells a little fishy doesn't it Frank? |
Apart from finding this very amusing reading I will have to agree with Frank's view of Jtinn not quite being forcoming with all the facts.
You have to be blind Freddy to not understand the real reason why the cost of these dartzeel amps have gone up so much is due to the fact there is a distributor in the middle, taking his margin, as well as the manufacturer and retailer. If Jtinn explained this I think most people would understand that this would have to raise the prices - I won't get into a debate whether the retail price is too high or not. seems excessive thou.
This raises another question.
How many dealers does jtinn have besides his own shop?.
Generally distributors do not also sell their products retail - if they do they are probably not real distributors and should be offering a substantial reduction on the retail price. If I was a retailer it would piss me off given the distributor has so much more margin to play with.
- Otherwise all the distributor is doing is gouging the customer, once for the distributor margin and once for the retail margin all paid to the same person.
You can't have it both ways.
I have the same problems in Australia with what I classify as bogus distributors who give unrealistic retail prices (to match a true distributor model) however they are the only retailer!. They think they are giving you a good deal by offereing 10% off. Bulldust - I call that false advertising and a rip off. |
Just FYI, I had a looong reply planned for Frank, but as the adults we are, we contacted each other offline and resolved ALL our differences in a most understanding and friendly manner. As far as both of us are concerned, this matter is settled. Period. It does not affect my friendship with JTinn in the least--I still love the guy like an older brother--but it's always better to have two friends than one. Frank and I both understand that to err is human, to forgive divine (Grandmaster Flash said that, right? :). Bickering like we've seen here is not only meaningless, it also hurts what matters most to us: this hobby and the friends we make from it. It also hurts a great company, DarTZeel, and an even greater man, its owner, Herve Deletraz. Let's try to put agendas and egos aside, and enjoy what we're all in this wacky pursuit for: the MUSIC and the ability to enjoy it in the luxury of our own homes at the highest possible fidelity. Can I get an amen? |
Thank you again, Mmalin.
At this point, could we all go back to the product itself?
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
jakesommers@netscape.net I would have no reservations about buying any product that Jonathan represents.
Talk with any of Johnathan customers and you will hear nothing but praise about him and the way he takes care of his customers. I have little doubt that should a problem arise with anything Jonathans sells he is going to be in the customers corner. |
gentlemen,
just reading this thread can make you physically and emotionally drained!!
i hope the manufacturers of these and other products are paying attention! talk about a negative first impression !! it's the products sales that may suffer through personalities overtaking facts...
may i suggest that if you need to get personal,take it off the original posting and go at it on your own e-mail!!
your all too saavy to exhibit yourselves like this.
azjake |
Right on, Hooper!
I do hope other issues in this thread could also be settled offline.
Cheers,
Sjmgr |
"Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here.
"I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are."
JTinn, just to set the record straight, I am not new here and I have posted many, many times. No one put me up to posting in this thread. It's your vitriol that motivated me to post. Anytime someone criticizes a product you sale, the daggers come out. It's unprofessional and often mean-spirited. Anyone can do a search for the many examples.
As someone who is constantly salesshacking here, you could take some lessons in civility from another dealer on the 'Gon, Duke, who is always a perfect gentleman, even when someone disagrees with him or criticizes a product he sells.
If I were the manufacturer of Dartzeel, I would have shut you down in this thread a long time ago. Your attack-dog tactics in this thread couldn't have been helpful to their products. |
all, i have been watching TV for the last 4 days. this thread has made me avoid listening to music......as i don't want to be reminded of these issues. i listen to escape the daily stress and look forward to sharing in the audio community.
i accept my share of the blame.
this morning i am back listening. |
With the recent press about the darTZeel products,
I was going to consider this on my next upgrade.
But after seeing the importer's childish behavior on this thread (as well as his need to get the final word in)
I would never consider a product represented by him.
PLEASE to have to rely on him for service???????? |
Mikelavigne, in your post regarding the sonics of the new DarTZeel Preamp you stated that it was the first preamp, compared to 15 other reference level preamps you had auditioned, that was superior to the Placette passive line stage. What a great complement both to Guy Hammel the designer/builder and the piece itself. You are comparing a $1500.00 linestage to a $19000.00 linestage! It BETTER sound MAGNIFICENT and be a qualitative shift for the extra $17500.00. In my system I have a Placette active dual mono linestage which I think is a great bargain at $4500.00. I too auditioned about 10 preamps, both tube/solidstate, and thought the Placette had many virtues and no downside, so it was a keeper. It's all personnal taste and synergy, so their's no right or wrong, so if your affluent enough to spend what ever you want for whats really a slight change or different "flavor" bless you. I'm sure the DarTZeel ranks with some of the best reference preamps out there, it should for $19000.00, however for us not as affluent audiophiles, we try to get the greatest performance for the the least amount of bucks. So, based on quality of construction/performance vs. cost I think I'll be sticking to Mr. Hammel's linestage, unless maybe I win the lottery so cost becomes irrelevant and I can buy anything I want regardless of cost compared to performance. Now, you boys can go back and fight with each other about who's telling the truth and who has the BEST toys in the world. |
***Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here…I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are.***
Dear Mr. Tinn: My bet is you wonder a lot of things. Like if your grocer puts the milk that expires first in front to poison you. Or if the next president of the United States will be an alien puppet from another, much larger planet sent here to destroy you. Mr. Peraino is an attorney right? Shouldn’t you be discussing your paranoid delusions and conspiracy theories with your psychiatrist instead?
Dear Mr. Sommer: I’m with you. I don’t care for the sound of shrill tin(n) but I do like solid-state. For me Krell is the right choice for all the right reasons. Great sound, great products, great company. |
Fiddler: If you re-read my post, I was talking about those who posted here with no user accounts, just email addresses that were created specifically for this thread. It could be one person, or someone putting others up to it. OTOH, it could be totally innocent, but I doubt it. You and I have not agreed in the past and that is fine. I respect your opinion and if you read the threads that contain arguments that I am involved in, it is usually the same band of users that I tire of and just continue to target me instead of staying on point. They generally make it personal and I take the bait. These people generally make accusations, while having had no dealings with me and their motives are not honorable. With these people I am usually a bit too venemous. Early on, I stated my regret for how I said something. That should have been enough. Frank and I have a history that if I made it public, would explain much of what has taken place here.
Krjr: I am certainly sorry you feel the way you do, but the loss would be yours, not just from the standpoint of the loyalty and service that I provide, but you would really be missing out on an extraordinary line of products from darTZeel. |
Regarding the greed or mark up on pricing, and whether its due to curency movement (can;t explain the whole move up)...I think that is all beside the pt. If the product is very popular and supply is limited, prices will go up. Mfrs, distributors and retailers are all expected to maximize profits and whether they do so excessively to damage long-term relationships is judgement they have to make, just like any economic concern. All we can do as consumers is to decide whether the product is worth it at its new elevated price and/or whether we can afford it and act accordingly. No need to get all worked up about it in my book. |
Kevinkwan: Since you do not know me either and want to make a joke out of this, so be it. That is your choice. Many of the people involved, even those accusing me of things, know the truth. I am 100% honest about all that has occurred. It certainly is easy enough to twist the truth as some have proven here.
BTW, The current President is an alien, isn't he? |
Henryhk,
I'm afraid you are right. Still waiting for an audition of de dartzeel amp in my system. But I did heard the pricing in the Netherlands.
That would be 18000 euro. That's 21500 dollar!!!
Edzard |
I do not often participate but feel compelled to do so now that the smoke seemed to clear.
1. Break in is real and will vary from component to component. My Verity Parsifal Encores sounded absolutely horrible when new. Also, I have read countless reviews where the reviewer mentioned that they ran in a component in a separate room for X amount of weeks prior to audition. If a reviewer does not have the time or facilities to insure that the product is properly auditioned (proper room, associated components, etc), then they should not be in the business of reviewing.
2. People in general may have their own agendas. It is no secret to people that have some connection to this world that money sometimes talks. Advertising dollars and $$$ in general can sometimes have an impact on a review. That is why reviews (along with a lack of respect some may have for individual reviewers), must be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, like every other profession, some reviewers are better than others.
One quick story to validate my point - At the stereophile show this year, I overheard a reviewer (not a stereophile reviewer) talking with a friend. He stated that he asked a speaker manufacturer (fairly well know but I will not mention any names) what they can do on a pair of XX model speakers. The reviewer was bragging that he got the speakers outright (a $7,000 pair) and the reviewer mentioned to his friend that he will have to write something good about the product. I overheard this story when I was helping a manufacturer break down his room.
Keep in mind that I believe that many reviews are honest ones. The problem is that the public will never know which ones they are.
3. I am a customer of Jtinn. That is because he is the most knowledgable, honest, reliable, caring person I have met in my 25+ years in audio. His customers needs come before the sale. For example, my friend was interested in the Dartzeel amp. Jtinns first question was 'Which speakers are you using? He then responded by saying that he believes the speakers are too inefficient for the amp and wound up selling him nothing.
4. I have owned various State of the art amps, and the dartzeel has exceeded my every expectation. A truely INCREDIBLE product.
And NO!!!! Jtinn did NOT put me up to writing this response. |
Although as I stated previously, I am done with my involvement in this thread, I DID promise Hooper (Andy) during our chat the other night that I would post to confirm that he and I discussed our issues in this gentleman's hobby in a gentlemanly manner. So I am keeping that promise. Andy, it was good chatting with you the other night and I am glad we continue to be friends despite our different tastes in gear.
I won't be at the next SE Mich Audiophile meeting on 11/12 as I will be out of town (it was originally set for 11/5 a day I WAS avaialable) - I hope to see you at the next meeting. |
"3. I am a customer of Jtinn. That is because he is the most knowledgable, honest, reliable, caring person I have met in my 25+ years in audio. His customers needs come before the sale. For example, my friend was interested in the Dartzeel amp. Jtinns first question was 'Which speakers are you using? He then responded by saying that he believes the speakers are too inefficient for the amp and wound up selling him nothing."
Notwithstanding some of the posts in this thread, I would wholeheartedly agree with Bkonig. I am a customer of Jonathan's for a few of my pieces and his customer service and advice is amongst the best I have encountered. He is always a pleasure to speak with, and often goes above and beyond in trying to get any questions or concerns answered immediately.
In keeping with this thread, I might have some comments about the preamp in November.
Frank and Andy- I am so glad your friendship is stronger than some contentious words posted on the internet. Life is too short to argue about the merits of an amplifier/review. |
"2. People in general may have their own agendas. It is no secret to people that have some connection to this world that money sometimes talks. Advertising dollars and $$$ in general can sometimes have an impact on a review. That is why reviews (along with a lack of respect some may have for individual reviewers), must be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, like every other profession, some reviewers are better than others.
One quick story to validate my point - At the stereophile show this year, I overheard a reviewer (not a stereophile reviewer) talking with a friend. He stated that he asked a speaker manufacturer (fairly well know but I will not mention any names) what they can do on a pair of XX model speakers. The reviewer was bragging that he got the speakers outright (a $7,000 pair) and the reviewer mentioned to his friend that he will have to write something good about the product. I overheard this story when I was helping a manufacturer break down his room.
Keep in mind that I believe that many reviews are honest ones. The problem is that the public will never know which ones they are."
BKonig
Am I to infer from your post above that because no money changed hands or dealer accommodation given to the reviewer (Fritz) for the amp that his review was an honest one?
I have said before that I know both Jeff Fritz and JTinn. I have read the review several times and to me the only apparent negative was the inherent price of the amplifier and that when compared to others in this price range Jeff felt that the consumer does have options to consider. |
OB, you have asked me a question 2 different times and for various reasons i had not yet answered you.....my apologies.
i was fortunate that yesterday i again took possesion of the pre-production darTZeel preamp......i drove to Portland and back.....got home at about 7:30pm last night.....plugged it in......and listened until about 3 in the morning. for the first few hours digital, then vinyl until i couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. i got my second wind at about 10;30pm and my third wind about 1:30am.
so my aurial memory is now 'real-time'.
so what the hell do i mean by 'liquidity, palpability, and delicacy' when describing this preamp?
when i say 'this preamp' i mean the pre-production dart pre, the pair of Stereo dart NHB-108 amps, and the BNC cables connecting them. since i can only use the proprietary connection at this time i cannot assign cause and effect between the pre, the amps and the cables.
by 'liquidity' i mean 'liquid' as opposed to 'dry'. real life has a lack of edge; if you close your eyes and concentrate on real life sounds (not reproduced) there is no real edge to sounds, even fingernails on a blackboard have no 'outline' or abrupt starting point. real sounds are not 'dry' and lifeless. real sounds are rendered in a context of 'air' around them; they exist in relation to what else is happening.
an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed. the tube warmth of a typical SET amp does portray a type of liquidity, or lack of 'dryness'. the darTzeel combo's liquidity is more a removal of distortion than an added something. my interpreation of what i hear from the dart pre is that a layer of 'hash' or distortion is removed from the music that leaves that more real liquidity that more closely resembles real life.
the tangible benefits of this lack of distortion or 'liquidity' is more real detail. this is easiest to hear with massed strngs or choral works; where it is easy to tell what is different. whereas previously, these musical events were percieved as 'those musicians or instruments over there'....now they are percieved as that group of players over there singing/playing together but now each 'voice' has a purpose and message. it greatly enhances the musical gestault and draws me into the music. i am listening to an event and not the playback chain with it's own character.
palpability is the sense of realistic size and shape of things; also of true flavor, texture, and action. is there something real connected to that sound? is dis-belief suspended? is there a sense of natural scale and feeling? can i taste it? feel it? am i there?
is it palpable? is it real?
delicacy is simply the ability to complete tiny things correctly; and not obscure or artifically interpret the tiny but all-important heart of acoustic music. when music is delicate......it moves me.
these three issues are connected; the dart combo does these things at another level or two higher than i have yet heard before. at first it is a little disorienting; since some of your reference recordings have such a different feel. but after relaxing into the music i have found that everything is just more real.
again; i apologise for the delay in my answer; my heart was just not into the beauty of music for a few days. |
Oneobgyn:
In reference to your first point, I do not know what changed hands regarding the dartzeel review. When I mention money, it can simply be a manufacturer giving a component to a reviewer to keep and the reviewer in turn may develop an allegience to that manufacturer. These allegiences are the problem.
Regarding your second point, the Soundstage review, if the amp was not properly broken in, then it should not be compared to anything and should not be reviewed. I read the 6 moons review and this excerpt explains my point.
"My unit was not new. It was a review sample forwarded from another industry reviewer. For this piece, it took 2.5 weeks of continuous playing in addition to whatever the previous reviewer had put on it to arrive at sonic stability. It would have been an unforgivable mistake to evaluate this amp before then.
Some components reveal their true character right out of the box and offer incremental refinements over time. Other components change character. The darTZeel belongs to the latter group. The amp starts off sounding like a nice little tube amp - sweet, fairly dimensional, with a polite bottom end - nothing to get exited about. Soundstaging at that point is average for a high-end amp - good but not world class. A few hundred hours into the process? Zowie! The authority and majesty of the low end explodes out of nowhere. What started off polite ends up powerful. A previously slightly recessed soundstage now blooms out into the room. The amp transforms from "really nice" to "holy shit!" |
Mike - What a great description here. I have read similar A'gon posts but yours is incredibly concise. I think the only way anyone can get an appreciation for what you have shared here is to ultimately experience this for themself.
With my system, there have been hints along the way to hear some of what you have described, but only this last week with a major overhaul of my system with Kubala-Sosna Emotion and Purist Dominus can I now truly relate to your response .... specifically the issue of textures.
Have you had the opportunity to hear the K-S Emotion cables in your system. I would be very interested to hear how they might work with your music system.
John |
Some components reveal their true character right out of the box and offer incremental refinements over time. Other components change character. The darTZeel belongs to the latter group. The amp starts off sounding like a nice little tube amp - sweet, fairly dimensional, with a polite bottom end - nothing to get exited about. Soundstaging at that point is average for a high-end amp - good but not world class. A few hundred hours into the process? Zowie! The authority and majesty of the low end explodes out of nowhere. What started off polite ends up powerful. A previously slightly recessed soundstage now blooms out into the room. The amp transforms from "really nice" to "holy shit!"
BKonig
Please help me therefore to understand why the DarTZeel owner's manual states that from a cold start the amp is 90%where it should be and 95% after the first 5 minutes of warm up?
Truly you are asking me to believe that an additional 4 weeks of break in creates that extra 5% of magic. I say this is a bit of a stretch of my imagination
Mike--I read and re-read countless times your flowery prosaic of your description of liquidity, palpability and delicacy to describe this amp. I would have to say that this description befits anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system., I suppose that I could say that about my ML 2.1's and they were perfect right out of the box with no additional break-in. I maintain once again that this whole thing boils down to a "pick your flavor"--nothing more. I would also disagree with you in your depiction of an SET which you state
"an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed."
Having lived with my ML 2.1's now for the last 4 months I am simply amazed how 18wpc can do what they do to my X-2's and their 15" drivers. |
Mike- Have you been using the preamp in battery mode? I know last time you had it, you may not have have even realized its true sonic potential. Any better this time now that it is back in your system? |
OB- The owner's manual is referring to the fact that the amp is ALWAYS drawing a small amount of electricity and maintaining a "charge". After depressing the "POWER NOSE", which takes it out of standby (this is NOT a power switch that disconnects it from the mains), the amp will reach 95% of its potential after five minutes of actual playing time. The amp could be left on all the time and require no five minute warm up, but that would be a waste of electricity.
I read it as Mike referring to the improvement over other amps he has heard in his system (or other systems) and hence the differences the Dart combo brings. Certainly you wouldn't say you have the "same emotional involvement" in your system as when you had the Ref 2 and 600s versus the Ref 3 and 2.1 would you? Or the X-1 versus the X-2s?
Also- what if Jeff Fritz had written a review of the Wilson X-2s or EMM DAC 6/CDSD and it was basically the same "tone" as the Dart review- honest, good reporting of what he heard, but felt these components were not competitive at their given price range. Fair enough?
But how would you feel about those same reviews if you found out Jeff never adjusted the X2 upper modules for his listening position or ran an RCA digital cable between the Meitner pieces and never used the fiber optic connections? Still an honest review, but not totally accurate and representative of the products full potential. *IF* Jeff never removed the DC compensation on the Dart or allowed proper break-in, then he never heard the amp at its full potential and made his comparisons against other amps slightly compromised.
From the Dart manual:
"The third jumper, labeled DC Offset COMP, is the most important since it does affect the sound of the amplifier"
"In doing so, you will fully benefit from the very philisophy of the NHB-108 model one, which is to refuse any compensation or global negative feedback which could impair the sound." |
