I hate to disappoint you buddy, but I won't be "arguing" with anyone. The problem IMHO is there is TOO much of that in this hobby anyway - too much music to enjoy to waste time arguing.
As far as your points made above though, I thought I should at least clarify a few things:
1. Yes, I own Lamms and you didn't step on my toes - that was the point of my post - I like the Lamms you like the Darts - so why does one of us have to be "wrong" or have his toes stepped on? What I guess I find silly is how people get so offended if someone doesn't like or agree with our opinions of our gear. Who really cares who likes what or even if a reviewer likes our stuff? Is that what we are left to? We now need our purchasing decisions to be validated by other audiophiles or, worse yet, by reviewers?
2. Yes, I NOW write for Soundstage but I did NOT know Jeff or have any affiliation with Soundstage at any time when the Darts were auditioned or reviewed or even before the review was published. As far as Jeff being irresponsible, I find that comment totally unjustified. The Darts are supposed to be 100 watt amps are they not? With an 8 ohm nominal load even dipping to 4 and with the Wilsons sensitivity my Lamms at 110 watts have NO problem driving the Wilsons (or my Kharmas). I could see if Jeff paired a weak SET amp or the 30 watt Aloia with the Wilsons, but most would think a 100 watt solid state amp should be able to drive the Wilsons. In addition, many people who have heard Marc Mickelson's system (the Editor at Soundstage who drives his Wilson Maxx 2s with the 18 watt Lamms with no problem) claim the sound is incredible, so how is Jeff "irresponsible" by assuming the 100 watt Dart was a good match?
3. I am confused by your comment about the Lamms. You say you heard the M1.2s with the Kharma and it wasn't your cup of tea - no problem, your opinion based on your tastes. BUT, you then say "I prefer great SS to great tubes anyway." Why this reference? Did you really hear the ML2.1s which are the Lamm 18 watt SET amps? Or the ML 1.1s which are 80 watt tube amps? The M1.2s are 110 watt hybrids (but really are essentially SS amps as they only have 1 tube).
Finally, as I said above, I had no affiliation with Soundstage when the Darts were reviewed. The reason I responded is that it seems a bit hypocritical and disingenuous to me to attack someone's opinion as "utterly ridiculous" when at the same time expressing your own opinion on the same issue - when they are both just that - opinions. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that if Jeff paired and old set of Soundlab U-1s with a 12 watt SET amp you could call his opinion into question due to system mismatching - I just don't see how pairing an $18,000, 100 watt solid state amp with Wilsons amounts to a glaring mismatch sufficient to render Jeff's opinion "utterly ridiculous." IMHO, in retrospect you might have been better served by saying that, in your opinion, Jeff did not hear all the Darts had to offer paired with the Wilsons as the Dart is not sufficient to drive them.
Just my $.02
ps - GOOD CALL on the DIA - always a smart idea to keep our better halves happy. |
Since anyone who disagrees with Mr. Tinn or Mr. Lavigne seems to get lambasted, lets look at JUST WHY NOBODY should give any credibility to anything Mike Lavigne or Hooper says on this thread (Mike and Andy, don't get mad yet, it's nothing about you, it's about the problematic logic of Mr. Tinn so read on).
In Mr. Tinn's vitriolic post above he states and I quote:
"When Marc begged for Soundstage to review the amplifier, I told him I was not interested because of his strong ties to LAMM and Jeff's to Boulder. I should have followed my instincts. Jeff is as slimy as I have ever read."
So from this quote we see that Jtinn's position is that Marc's ownership of Lamm gear and Jeff's ownership of Boulder gear constitute "strong ties" to those respective companies sufficient to render their credibility unfit to give an unbiased opinion on DartZeel amps. In addition, it should be noted that Marc, while knowing Vladimir Lamm and Jeff while knowing the people at Boulder are not "good friends" with them - just owners and admirers of their gear.
However, in the case of Mr. LaVigne and Hooper (Andy) Jtinn as well as Mike and Andy have admitted publicly in this forum and AA that they are "good friends" with Jonathan Tinn. To those close friendships we must add the FACT that Andy and Mike own Dartzeel amps and preamps (sold by Jtinn), Von Schweikert VR-9s (sold by Jtinn) and EMM Labs gear (sold to them by Jtinn).
Therefore, based on Jtinn's OWN logic on why we should NOT trust the opinions Marc or Jeff due to their "strong ties" (when Marc's and Jeff's are based on ownership alone and not close friendships), we CERTAINLY THEN CANNOT trust the opinions of Hooper or Mike since they not only OWN all Jtinn gear, but they are close friends as well. Now understand, I DID NOT SAY THIS, Jtinn did in his post when he implied that Marc and Jeff could NOT be trusted nor could they be unbiased due to these "strong ties!"
Most of us can see how ludicrous Jtinn's logic is. MOST reviewers own some sort of reference system. Following Jtinn's logic, they are all untrustworthy because they have strong ties due to their ownership of their particular gear. Yet Mr. Tinn routinely engages the assistance of Hooper and Mike (and any one who thinks he doesn't, doesn't know JTinn as he did the same with me many years ago) who clearly have "strong ties" to Jtinn's products.
So, either Hooper and Mike are totally non-credible due to their "strong ties" or Marc and Jeff have been unjustifiably accused by Jtinn - you can't have it both ways.
Next, Jtinn aims his attack at the Soundstage magazine when he states to me:
"As a reviewer, shouldn't you write for something other than that rag? I do not know why you would pick such a magazine. You should be able to write for almost anyone...Soundstage? Please."
Then why submit an amp for review to such a bad mag to such biased reviewers with "strong ties" to Lamm and Boulder - particularly one that isn't broken in when that break-in is apparently so crucial? Who had ultimate control over THIS situation?
First, I have no argument with a claim that some gear needs adequate break-in. The issue is this: If I AM THE MANUFACTUER OR THE DISTRIBUTOR WHO HAS AN AMP FOR WHICH BREAK-IN IS SO CRUCIAL, why in God's name would you let an amp go without being broken in - much less to a slimy bunch like the biased goons at Soundstage?
I am going to admit that my following statements about Mr. Fremer ARE hearsay from a third party who claims to know this and I will invite Mr. Fremer to correct me if I am wrong. Mr. Fremer, like many other reviewers, is a busy man. I understand that Mr. Fremer will NOT break-in a product due to those time constraints. So it is with many reviewers, they do not have the time nor the desire to wait hundreds of hours for a product to burn in. This is common knowledge. I am not saying that a reviewer may not agree to do this for the company, but, if Mr. Tinn had the reservations he said he did about the reviewer and the mag, then WHO was the negligent one? Who had control over the issue of giving an unbroken-in amp to a "biased" reviewer with "strong ties" to Boulder who wrote for a crappy mag?
I can only answer for myself and say if I had the reservations Jtinn did and thought the reviewer was biased and the mag was crappy, I know what I'd have done.
Next, MY original issue was with Hooper's categorization of Jeff's review as "utterly ridiculous" because of Hooper's reasoning that the DartZeel was a mistmatch for the Wilsons. At that point Hooper (Andy) and I [who are buddies] were having a civil debate over the isue with no vitriol or venom. I took issue with basing the "utterly ridiculous" opinion on a 100 watt amp allegedly not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons when both the 18 watt and 110 watt Lamms can. My point being that Jeff was not negligent in assuming a 100 watt, $18,000, SS amp could drive them.
As Jtinn's post pointed out, my point was correct and the DartZeel is powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. So when Andy's categorization of Jeff's review for the reason given was proven to be wrong, the new libelous onslaught began.
Then, Mike had to come in and try to clean up JTinn's mess with a more civil explanation. But even then, did anyone notice the suspicuous disappearance of one of Mike's later posts? Mike had graciously posted a comment that, in his opinion, Jeff's review was not "wrong" it was incomplete. But that post disappeared. I will leave the readers to decide as to whether or why Mike would delete a kind and ameliorative post (or was he asked to delete it? - regardless of any subsequent posts, ask yourself who had the most to gain from deleting a post that said Jeff's review was not "wrong?).
Mike, I agree with you that cars and audio gear need break-in and if you do not follow instructions, it is your fault if something goes wrong. But Mike, your analogy misses the mark. Your analogy is aimed to OWNERS or purchasers. I would bet that if Honda was sending a car to Road and Track or Motor Trend and, if that car was like the DartZeel amp and the car would NOT perfom well unless it had 300 hours on it, you can BET Honda would put those 300 hours on it to avoid a bad review.
In closing I will stick to my original point, if I like milk chocolate and you like dark, why is one wrong and one right and why do "owners" of gear get their undies in such a bunch if someone else doesn't agree with them? When I have people over for an audio club day, if I offer them Pespi or Coke and they choose Coke when I like Pepsi, would I ever think of getting defensive over his preference? Then why is it when the Coke drinker goes into the audio room that I should be any different? As a reviewer, audiophile and music lover I am loyal to good sound and good music regardless of what gear gets me to the promised land. As you have noticed, not once have I disparaged DartZeel or any thing the posters here prefer over what I have. It simply doesn't matter as they have the gear they want and can afford as do I. My concern was a colleague was being disparaged over a review said to be "utterly ridiculous" for a reason that turned out to be fallacious (e.g, the Dart not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - a statement confirmed to be wrong by Jtinn himself - of course Mr. Tinn had to do that so he won't lose an entire prosective DartZeel customer base who own Wilsons or other speakers allegedly hard to drive)).
It is my opinion that this forum has been polluted by unscrupulous dealers/distributors who muddy the water of a forum designed to be a friendly sharing of ideas and civil debate to one of ulterior motives and libelous vitriol for their own profit.
I will wait for the further onslaught. |
Mike, I did not mean YOU did the lambasting. Basically, since you agree with Jtinn and are acting as his more civilized mouthpiece (Jtinn stated above that you said what he meant in a nicer way), I lumped the two of you together. |
Andy, NONE of this has been to disparage you. You, like me, just want to listen to good music. As I said, I did NOT say you had no credibility, just that if we use JTinn's logic, you and Mike would not be credible either due to your "strong ties." That is why I said what I said -- that using JTinn's logic EVERY reviewer would be biased.
Yes, it appears you were mistaken about the Dart being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons (assuming JTinn is correct) and that would have been the end of the discussion as THAT, if you go back and read my original posts, was ALL you and I were discussing. As far as making mistakes is concerned, TRUST me, I have made a ton of them, but I try to learn from them and not make them again if at all possible. Who cares if you were mistaken, you have the integrity to admit it, so, no big deal, we just go on. However, I never meant to crucify you nor do I think, re-reading the posts, you were crucified. You came across as a gentleman and I hope I did as well. |
JUST to clarify and for all you Paul Harvey fans out there - HERE is the REST of the story:
The following quotes are taken DIRECTLY from the DartZeel amplifier's Owner's Manual:
Page 8 of the NHB-108's Owner's Manual states:
"The darTZeel NHB-108 model one has been designed to deliver more than 90% of its magical sound at cold start. After 5 minutes you are very close to the best the machine can offer. The increasing quality you may hear as time goes by will be mostly the reflection of your growing musical pleasure."
Page 16 of the NHB-108's Owner's Manual states:
"...all machines are broken in for more than 4 weeks in continuous use..."
Soundstage would rather rely on the manufacturer's information as opposed to an owner, dealer, or distributor so if the manufacturer made the forgoing statements DIRECTLY in the Owner's Manual AND IF THEY BURNED IN THE UNIT FOR MORE THAN FOUR WEEKS ALREADY, why should Jeff doubt it.
I have also been informed that, notwithstanding the Owner's Manual's advice, Jeff played the amp continuously for FIVE weeks before writing his review.
Next, DID ANYONE ON THIS POST READ JEFF'S REVIEW? It never bashed the sound of the ampliifer at all!!! The review was positive on every sonic count and only calls the amp's value against its competition into question. In the reviewer's opinion it was simply overpriced! WHY? Because before JTinn became involved with DartZeel, that same amp sold for $12,000. Afterwards it was $18,000!!!!!! A 50% increase!! The Euro is only about 23% higher than the dollar. Also, have you seen ANY other audio product made in Europe increase in price that much due to the alleged Euro disparity during that same time period? I haven't but then again I may not know of all such products.
Gentleman, Jeff Fritz is an honest man who simply called it as he heard it. For that HE was crucified and defamed on this thread. Jeff is a big boy and can take care of himself, but why should such mis-information be allowed to go uncorrected on this forum?
It kills me how everyone seems to complain that too many reviews are too nice and not "honest enough." Jeff then: (1) is led to believe by the manufacturer and Owner's Manual that the amp is at 90% cold out of the box and close to the best the amp has within FIVE minutes (as well as it being broken in by DartZeel for FOUR continuous weeks); (2) plays the amp continuously for FIVE weeks NOT FIVE minutes as suggested by DARTZEEL (now totalling NINE weeks of burn-in); (3) praises the sonics but; (4) calls it like he hears it when the recently raised $18,000 price is considered particularly against competition in that price range. And what happens? You saw for yourselves.
NOW ask yourself. WHO has no credibility and WHO is biased?
Funny thing, I just wrote a not so positive review for Soundstage for the ELP Laser Turntable. The classy people at ELP simply agreed to disagree with me and filed a classy response in Soundstage.
NOW you know the REST OF THE STORY!! |
Jafox, I HATE to see you wallow in a state of contentedness so I will take the Aesthetix and CAT stuff off yer hands!! Oh how you must be suffering with no axes to grind or up-graditis fever!! But hey! I am an altruistic guy so I will take yer stuff and suffer for you!! No one should have to be right to be "content" in this crazy hobby ;-)
Actually, I am in the same horrendous condition - content! But it sure feels good! |
Just when it appears Mr. Tinn that your posts cannot get any more illogical - you outdo yourself yet again.
First, lets look at the FACTS about this thread:
1. The ORIGINAL poster, Ubglub, asked a specific question about experiences with the DarZeel PREAMP (NOT the amplifier).
2. Hooper, NOT me, originally led the post astray by taking the opportunity, in response to a specific post about the Dart PREAMP, to bring up Jeff's review of the AMPLIFIER and called it "utterly ridiculous"! (why he felt he needed to do that when the question was about the PREamp - I could not figure out).
3. So, knowing Hooper is a nice guy, I simply asked Hooper why he claimed Jeff's review was "utterly ridiculous" and in his next post he claimed it was because, in his reasoning, Jeff was "irresponsible" by mismatching the Dart to the Wilsons claiming it wasn't powerful enough to drive the Wilsons.
4. I challenged Hooper's claim that the Dart was not powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. In FACT, JTinn himself later acknowledged the Dart WAS powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - thus giving credence to my challenge of Andy's reasoning in calling Jeff "irresponsible" and his review "utterly ridiculous." GO BACK AND READ MY AND HOOPERS DIALOGUE! AT THIS POINT THE INTERACTION WAS CIVIL, PLEASANT AND WE WERE HAVING NO PROBLEMS. REMEMBER, I DID NOT DO ANYTHING BUT CHALLENGE A CLAIM THAT MY FELLOW COLLEAGUE WAS "IRRESPONSIBLE" AND THAT HIS OPINION WAS "UTTERLY RIDICULOUS." HOOPER AND I WERE FINE AT THAT POINT AND DONE WITH THE INTERACTION AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.
5. Enter Mr. Tinn and his completely unprofessional post calling Jeff and Marc biased and Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" and "unprofessional" and then condemning Soundstage. SO EVERYONE, ASK YOURSELF THIS: IF HOOPER AND I WERE DONE AND EVERYTHING WAS CIVIL PRIOR TO THAT POINT, WHEN DID ALL THAT CHANGE AND WHO HIJACKED THE THREAD???
IN ADDITION, ASK YOURSELF WHO HAS BEEN UNPROFESSIONAL, WHO HAS SOMETHING TO GAIN FROM INSULTING THE DARTZEEL REVIEW IN SOUNDSTAGE AND WHO HAS DONE THE NAME CALLING?
I stuck to the facts of the thread, to Jtinn's actual language from the thread and to the Owner's Manual from his product to show where the real bias was and who had the real agenda. People responded to challenge Jtinn and his close friend Mike LaVigne even said he did NOT agree with JTinn's categorization of Jeff and Marc or their motives and that JTinn made "assinine assertions!" If his good friend even thought his bashing of Marc and Jeff was wrong and his assertions assinine, then either my challenge to Mr. Tinn's post was justifed or I guess then Mike TOO has an agenda to destroy Mr. Tinn.
However, here is Mr. Tinn claiming I hijacked the thread and that HE is the victim. LOL!! Ya gotta love Mr. Tinn's logic!
In closing, Mr. Tinn, may I suggest that if you are going to commit something to writing in a thread (and unjustifiably insult and defame a reveiwer and a magazine) or carry a product with an Owner's Manual that contradicts your claims, you may want to think twice before you post and know your product a little better since all I have done is point out what you and the Manual have said. Period! |
Hooper, I have one problem with your post. Try to let go of your allegiance to Tinn and take an unbiased look at my posts. NEVER have I said YOU caused it to get ugly. In fact I said JUST the opposite - that you and I were civil and had resolved the issue before Tinn got ugly.
Next, NEVER have I said anything ugly about DartZeel or you. You are implying here that I AM causing your remarks to be repeated over and over. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT? If Tinn would simply admit (like you did about your original post, and like Mike does he says he does NOT agree with Tinn's characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives) that he wrongly bashed and unprofessionally maligned a reviewer and his review THAT WAS NOT NEGATIVE, then this WHOLE thing would have ended. If Tinn keeps throwing out insults and refusing to be accountable for his written word and his slanderous comments and he keeps posting claiming that I HIJACKED this thread, then I have no choice but to defend myself by simply listing the FACTS AGAIN in hopes that objective minds will see that Jeff didn't do what he accuses him of, why Tinn bashed him and Soundstage and who OBVIOUSLY hijacked this thread.
It's funny how JTinn maligns me and my job by smugly asking don't I have anything better to do. Yet another double standard by Mr. Tinn!!! Then, how is it that Mike LaVigne isn't guilty of the same thing when posting his long posts? Mike, as a general manager of an Auto Dealership is even busier than I am. Also, why is Mike posting here at all? Because JTinn is his friend and he is trying to come to his aid - WELL THAT IS ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO WHEN MY COLLEAGUE WAS SO UNJUSTLY ACCUSED OF BEING A LIAR, BEING SLIMY AND BEING UNPROFESSIONAL! JTinn has made MANY defamatory and unsupported allegations and comments about Jeff in this thread. I have NOT done anything but point out Mr. Tinn's fallacious logic using his own words - something he obviously has no tolerance for as evidenced by his refusal to either admit (i) that he was wrong; or (ii) that you and Mike are also biased an non-credible for the same reasons he used to judge Marc and Jeff. He simply will not be accountable for those statements and his double standard attacks.
So, AGAIN, who could have NOT started this ugliness in the first place - Mr. Tinn. Similarly, who could have ended it with class and integrity by being a man and admitting his mistake? Tinn. Who continues to hurl insults and personal attacks instead of addressing his own words? Tinn.
Do the math Andrew. If you can be a man and admit a mistake, if Mike can admit that Tinn was wrong in his characterization of Jeff and Marc and their motives - ask yourself who is the ONLY person who cannot do the same thing? Ask yourself who is REALLY causing this thing to drag on? Ask yourself who REALLY hijacked this thread! I think you know the answer as does anyone who objectively reads this thread.
So, if there are no more insults or attacks leveled by Tinn and his group, there will be no more responses.
PS - the reason that JTinn and Mike have stated that some of their posts have not been allowed should be illustrative. The reason all my posts are getting through is that I am sticking to a debate of the FACTS and the words used on the thread. If JTinn's post calling Jeff "slimy" and "an out and out liar" made it through, can you IMAGINE how vituperative and venemous or unrelated to the issue at hand those posts must have been for Audiogon to prohibit them? |
Andy, I am sorry if this upsets you, but can you understand that since YOU posted the language below almost SIX months ago, and here in this post you call Jeff's review "utterly ridiculous" because the darTzeel can't drive Wilsons, that your original post NOW looks very sad:
"Posted by Quint ( A ) on March 22, 2005 at 11:40:40
In Reply to: Re: darTZeel posted by Jwm on March 22, 2005 at 05:17:20:
Actually, the amp can, and DOES, drive 4-ohm loads--and does so even better if you know the secret. When I mated the amp to my Kharma Midi Exquisites (a 4-ohm load with a few big dips), the results were lackluster, BUT I recently became aware of the fact that the amp has an internal switch that toggles between low-impedance and high-impedance operation. If I had known about the presence of that switch, maybe I'd still own the Kharmas.
At any rate, this talk that the amp can't drive hard loads is rubbish. It's not a muscle amp, but it's hardly a SET either. It can do whatever you need it to."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=amp&n=68636&highlight=dartzeel&r=&session=
I HATE having to drag this out but every time someone claims that Jeff or Marc were neglient or that I am crazy for debating, their OWN words come back to haunt them. Darnit Andy, I like you and gave you the benefit of the doubt when you posted that the Darzeel could NOT drive the Wilsons but I didn't KNOW that you KNEW otherwise six months ago. WHY?
This thread HAS gotten sad so I am now DONE posting on this ludicrous thread. I am saddened that what I though was a good natured, honest debate in the beginning was otherwise. Anyone who has been following it, if they are not already nauseated or disgusted, will have already made up their minds what to believe.
JTinn, Mike, Andy, bash away. |
Although as I stated previously, I am done with my involvement in this thread, I DID promise Hooper (Andy) during our chat the other night that I would post to confirm that he and I discussed our issues in this gentleman's hobby in a gentlemanly manner. So I am keeping that promise. Andy, it was good chatting with you the other night and I am glad we continue to be friends despite our different tastes in gear.
I won't be at the next SE Mich Audiophile meeting on 11/12 as I will be out of town (it was originally set for 11/5 a day I WAS avaialable) - I hope to see you at the next meeting. |
Hooper, so just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion of a DarZeel product his opinion is "utterly ridiculous?" I have always thought you were more open-mined and reasonable than that. This hobby is almost entirely based on personal tastes and opinion. If I subscribe to your theory, then I would have to call your comments and opinion of Kharma speakers "utterly ridiculous" because I do not share your opinion. However, I choose not to do that because it makes no sense since your comments are based on YOUR opinion, YOUR tastes and preferences and in the context of YOUR system (or other systems you heard them in) with all the numeroius variables involved.
Just because I like white chocolate and you like milk chocolate does not make you or me "utterly ridiculous." It simply makes us different in our preferences and opinions. I know the reviewer who wrote the review you call "utterly ridiculous" and he had NO ulterior motive and simply wrote what he heard and believed - just like you do when posting here or on Audio Asylum.
On another note, did you go to that first meeting of the SE Mich Audio group in Royal Oak? |
No hard feelings? NO WAY you 2-bit ingor . . . just kidding. ;-) My whole point has been that there should be no hard feelings and I never felt this was nasty because it has all been JUST opinion, which is why I am of the "opinion" that since it is all "opinion" we should not need to condemn another's "opinion."
AFAIC, the fact that we all buy different gear is proof we DO hear differently and have different opinions so I never take offense to someone else not liking my stuff.
I didn't get to the first meeting as I was on vacation but I may host the next one. We will see. I hope to see you there.
Frank |
Dlwask,
Thanks for the info. This has been my exact point throughout this thread. WHY should you have to be afraid of being bashed in this forum for stating your "opinion?"
You shared some insight and info and we are richer for it. MY problem is that dealers and distributors who have profit motives and financial gain at stake are allowed to make the type of claims Jtinn does (e.g, that Jeff and Marc are biased due to their "strong ties" resulting from ownership) while expecting us to then turn around and give credence to his, Mike's and Andy's opinions who have even stronger ties.
As I said above, you cannot have it both ways - either Mr. Tinn admits he unfairly accused Jeff and Marc of being biased or lacking credibility, or you include Jtinn, Hooper and Mike in that same group due to their "strong ties!"
This is simply about consistency and double standards. |
