OK Mike you got me--I am totally in the dark when you say the DarT pre has "liquidity, delicacy and palpability"
I am a simple guy and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please explain what you mean. |
Hooper
Very Interesting
When I went through my residency in OBGYN one of my professors used to tell us that the best way to be a successful consultant is to agree with the doctors who send you patients for referral. Obviously he was talking tongue in cheek but you understand my analogy. Is Jeff Fritz falling outside the mainstream because he had the brass cajones to say what he heard?
Understand that I am merely asking a question here and obviously there will be two sides to the argument. I am neither for or against the DarTZeel quite honestly, and as I have said above, Jonathan, Mike Lavigne as well as Jeff Fritz are all friends of mine. I am in no camp but merely playing the Devil's Advocate.
I remember when Halcro amps hit the market. There was the same street buzz as there is here |
This is what I love about this hobby--one man's passion is another man's poison.
I will say it again--pick your flavor because in the end it comes down to my mantra--it is all about my ears and my wallet. |
"1. Yes, I own Lamms and you didn't step on my toes - that was the point of my post - I like the Lamms you like the Darts - so why does one of us have to be "wrong" or have his toes stepped on? What I guess I find silly is how people get so offended if someone doesn't like or agree with our opinions of our gear. Who really cares who likes what or even if a reviewer likes our stuff? Is that what we are left to? We now need our purchasing decisions to be validated by other audiophiles or, worse yet, by reviewers?"
Truer words have never been spoken.
Reading through most of these threads don't we always find the hype coming from the people who own them.
I know both Jonathan as well as Mike Lavigne and have utmost respect for both and can call them my friends. I have surely been just as culpable with me hyping my gear.
FWIW, I own X-2's and am driving them with Lamm ML 2.1's at 18 wpc with plenty of head room to spare. Only once have I made these amps clip so, to say that the DarT is not a match for the big bass on the X-2 simply doesn't cut it with me. In "my" system the ML 2.1 is simply the most musical amp that I ever heard. I have talked to Mike Malinowski about the Lamm ML 2.1's. He expressed doubt that when pushed to high volumes they would take a last gasp. MIke has X-2's as do I. I can say in all honesty that I have run these amps at volumes sufficiently high to make my ears bleed.
This whole hobby is nothing more than a "pick your flavor". You like yours and I like mine. Neither is correct. My mantra for the past 33 years in which I have been involved in this hobby is "it all boils down to 'our' ears and 'our' wallets.
I also know Jeff Fritz and he too is my friend and I find the unkind remarks made above by people who I call my friends are less than charitable and very demeaning.
All of you seem to be looking for some validation in your gear. I have been certainly just as guilty. It seems that for some of you who have posted here the holy grail in your systems seems to be forever replaced with the next holy grail with each new component added or changed. It seems at some point there comes to be the Law of Diminishing Returns. My mentor in stereo always had a very important question he would ask of me when I changed or added something and claimed to have replaced the holy grail with the holy grail. He wopuld always ask me "Did I hear something better or did I hear something different?" This is the $64K question because IMO switching out gear only often only changes the flavor, but to our ears might make it sound better.
All of you --myself included--need to sit back and just enjoy the music. To chastise a reviewer for a lousy review IMO is just not right. You pay your money and you take your chances. It doesn't mean that the reviewer is an SOB or disengenuous.
Just my $0.02 |
What concerns me about this thread more than anything else is not the name calling between parties (which IMO is nothing other than childlike) but rather the comments made about Jeff Fritz and his not breaking in this unit before his review.
Fmfrnd (who is also a reviewer for Soundstage)has discussed with Jeff his use of the unit for 5 weeks in the course of his review. Surely that must be adequate break-in. Notwithstanding this however I continue to read comments from JTinn, Mike Lavigne and Hooper that this unit must be adequately broken in before its full potential is reached. Now having said this from the very DarTZeel manual as revealed by fmfrnd it comments that out of the box with cold start this unit is 90% of its potential and after 5 minutes of warm up has reached pretty much as good as it gets. Further the manual states that these units have 4 weeks of factory burn in before shipping.
So what are we supposed to believe? Why are you people claiming that further and more extensive burn-in is required?
When I hooked up My Lamm ML 2.1's straight out of the box the sound then IMO is as good then as it is now. Vladimir Lamm states that all units get 80 hours of burn in at the factory and each unit performs to its full potential after 50 minutes of warm up. I have found this to be true.
My question then to you three is what gives?--how can you have your cake and eat it too. Why would the manual give false information to burn-in?
I would submit to you and to all who read this thread that listening over 4 weeks of burn does absolutely nothing further for the betterment of the unit (if the manual is correct). Rather what is changing is that of psychacoustics. Ones frame of reference changes and that "flavor" that we have all discussed changes. I have asked many times with new gear that I buy (taught to me by mentor)--"do I hear something different or do I hear something better?"
To constantly read how layers of the onion are peeled off and ones frame of reference changes may be OK but I must say that I am a skeptic based on fmfrnds recent posts.
Now that doesn't mean that I am denying you 3 the pleasure that you claim this unit gives to your listening experience but I am wondering if this could be a case of the Emperor's new clothes? Sorry to harp on it JTinn and Mike but the revelation of the manual for me was quite disturbing |
Gentlemen
I don't know what to believe any more
Mike
I am still in the dark as to what "delicacy, liquidity and palpability" mean in describing this unit. |
RMaurin
As best as I am aware the DAC6e with the discrete DAC's is the only unit which can read 2X DSD.The DCC2 does NOT have the discrete Meitner DAC's so I am unsure what you are hearing |
I lied. I just verified with Philip O'Hanlon and it is the NEW CDSD which upsamples to 2X DSD. Either the DCC2 or the DAC6e will be able to read this |
Some components reveal their true character right out of the box and offer incremental refinements over time. Other components change character. The darTZeel belongs to the latter group. The amp starts off sounding like a nice little tube amp - sweet, fairly dimensional, with a polite bottom end - nothing to get exited about. Soundstaging at that point is average for a high-end amp - good but not world class. A few hundred hours into the process? Zowie! The authority and majesty of the low end explodes out of nowhere. What started off polite ends up powerful. A previously slightly recessed soundstage now blooms out into the room. The amp transforms from "really nice" to "holy shit!"
BKonig
Please help me therefore to understand why the DarTZeel owner's manual states that from a cold start the amp is 90%where it should be and 95% after the first 5 minutes of warm up?
Truly you are asking me to believe that an additional 4 weeks of break in creates that extra 5% of magic. I say this is a bit of a stretch of my imagination
Mike--I read and re-read countless times your flowery prosaic of your description of liquidity, palpability and delicacy to describe this amp. I would have to say that this description befits anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system., I suppose that I could say that about my ML 2.1's and they were perfect right out of the box with no additional break-in. I maintain once again that this whole thing boils down to a "pick your flavor"--nothing more. I would also disagree with you in your depiction of an SET which you state
"an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed."
Having lived with my ML 2.1's now for the last 4 months I am simply amazed how 18wpc can do what they do to my X-2's and their 15" drivers. |
As I said "alleged"
I spoke to Andreas Koch (who is a neighbor of mine)last week. They were to have released an upgrade with ceramic rather than silicone boards however talking to him, they weren't that pleased withthe sound and are continuing to work on it.
As well the newest DAC6e now comes with Meitner's discrete DAC's and not those previously dictated by Sony--somewhat of an improvement. The newest version also have a gloss rather than satin finish on the front.
Having said all of this Andreas tells me they would like to come out with a "package" of upgrades with makes for a definite sonic improvement. This hopefully might materialize next year.
The other little known fact is that the newest DCC2 does not (as yet) come with the discrete DAC's....only the newest DAC6e. The newest CDSD has the ability for future firmware upgrades and those who have this new unit, be advised that there is available a firmware upgrade which can be done by inserting the CD-ROM for installation.
Lastly, the newest CDSD with the newest DAC6e has the ability to upsample to 2X DSD. For whatever reason however it does not sound as good as DSD |
"2. People in general may have their own agendas. It is no secret to people that have some connection to this world that money sometimes talks. Advertising dollars and $$$ in general can sometimes have an impact on a review. That is why reviews (along with a lack of respect some may have for individual reviewers), must be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, like every other profession, some reviewers are better than others.
One quick story to validate my point - At the stereophile show this year, I overheard a reviewer (not a stereophile reviewer) talking with a friend. He stated that he asked a speaker manufacturer (fairly well know but I will not mention any names) what they can do on a pair of XX model speakers. The reviewer was bragging that he got the speakers outright (a $7,000 pair) and the reviewer mentioned to his friend that he will have to write something good about the product. I overheard this story when I was helping a manufacturer break down his room.
Keep in mind that I believe that many reviews are honest ones. The problem is that the public will never know which ones they are."
BKonig
Am I to infer from your post above that because no money changed hands or dealer accommodation given to the reviewer (Fritz) for the amp that his review was an honest one?
I have said before that I know both Jeff Fritz and JTinn. I have read the review several times and to me the only apparent negative was the inherent price of the amplifier and that when compared to others in this price range Jeff felt that the consumer does have options to consider. |
Fsarc
"Also- what if Jeff Fritz had written a review of the Wilson X-2s or EMM DAC 6/CDSD and it was basically the same "tone" as the Dart review- honest, good reporting of what he heard, but felt these components were not competitive at their given price range. Fair enough?"
I honestly don't ever let a review or reviewer ever sway me one way or another. I have said time and again...for me it always boils down to 2 things...my ears and my wallet and I could care less what anyone ever had to say. After all it is my ass that sits in the sweet spot. Pick your flavor gentlemen
JTinn
"BTW... Since I am the one that was very hesitant to recommend you try the LAMM ML2.1's with the Wilson Alexandria, I am glad I was wrong and you are so pleased!"
Yes you were and yes I amp
I recently had my Ref 3 in for the upgrade where 4 bypass caps were added
The rep who did it is here in Campbell Ca. He made an interesting comment to me. He said that all too often he sees people chasing the "upgrade" ladder and never seem to be happy with what they have. He said at some point one must step back, enjoy what they have and just enjoy the music. I must admit that I am as guilty as any one else posting here but I am pretty much done until Meitner releases there alleged big upgrade for their DAC in the coming year. As far as amps, I feel I have arrived.
I am trying merely to get a feel for everyone's comments about the DarT.
Mike Lavigne
"when you say "anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system" i assume you mean that any person with ANY amp (not specifically the darTZeel) might have the same perceptions".
Yes that was what I intended on saying |
