DarTZeel Preamp

i just read the soundstage report on dartzeel.
i just read this thread.
R.I.P.

Ditto that Fsarc. I've now had my dart pre for 3 months and it has worked flawlessly. I have also gotten 17-18 hours straight from it without the battery needing recharging. This thing is all music...by that I mean always before with my amp and pre-amp I found myself being drawn to various artifacts in the sound that I knew were coming from the equipment. Now, I just listen to the music because if there still are any artifacts I can't hear them.

My upgrading of amps and pre-amps has come to an end. Also, just recently I had my Linn CD12 upgraded by David Schulte of The Upgrade Company and it has been transformed into what has to be the SOTA in CD redbook once again.

The preamp continues to amaze me. I'm rediscovering recording after recording. It has been absolutely flawless in operation and I've run it over 17 hrs straight on the battery supply without interruption. The DarTZeel amp/preamp are by far the best pieces of audio equipment I have ever owned.

Like Fsarc, I just got my NHB-18NS pre-amp over this past weekend. It is connected to my NHB-108 amplifier which I've had since January via the 50 ohm interface. I A/B'ed the 50 ohm connection versus my 30' XLR run and it was no contest...the 50 ohm interface trounces it in every way just as Herve lays out in his white paper.

NHB stands for Never Heard Before and this is no marketing hype. This combo pre-amp/amp produces music like no other equipment I've ever heard or owned. It's as close to "live" as I've ever heard. Noise and artifacts are completely absent leaving just the music. The design and build quality are first class and the support I've gotten from Herve Deletraz and JTinn is the best I've experienced in my 20+ years in high end audio.

Yes, this combo is expensive, but if you're looking for the best possible performance then you must audition this combo. BTW, I can't speak for the phono stage performance as I'm just listening at the moment to a Linn CD12 CD player, but Mike Lavigne certainly can and has in other posts.

Earflappin

I have been fortunate enough to have the NHB-18NS preamp in my system for the last few days. In combination with the NHB-108 amp, using the 50 Ohm interface between the two, it is easily be the best piece of audio electronics I have ever heard. It has far exceeded my expectations which were quite high to start. It is so holographic, smooth, and "alive" that it's hard to quantify how much better it is than previous equipment I have owned or heard. The battery system has operated flawlessly so far. Can it get any better? Maybe- it’s only a few days old and there might be some additional break-in.

I think Hervé Deletraz is the best audio electronics designer in the world right now. The build quality is fanatical, the design radical, and the sound quality must be heard to be believed. It's very humbling to think your system sounds great until you put in a component like the NHB-18NS and it redefines for you what you thought was possible.

If you already have the NHB-108, don't even hesitate in ordering the preamp- it is a must have. If you own neither, order both and you will have the best amp/preamp combo on the planet. As always- this is just one audiophool’s opinion, but I'm happy as hell! Over the top actually. Thanks JT.

With the glowing reviews of ASR from HP (though of course, just taking things at face value, I haven't hear it myslef), the following of NHB, and positive reviews of the Sutherland phono amp, it seems there is common denominator: battery supplied power for the pre-amp line stage etc. Or is it just reading too much into things?

Mike,great stuff,as the Dart combo looks like a very "long term" stable,low maintenance winner!

How about the ZYX UNIV vs XV-1s comparison?Very much interested in your take!Thanks,and best regards.

Herve Deletraz (Mr. darTZeel) sent me an explaination of why we had some problems with battery power initially that i thought i would pass on to those interested.

**************

Herve's message;

"this is ONLY for the pre-serial machine you have:

The preamp is always drawing battery current, even when the preamp is switched off. So when you received it, maybe that the batteries were severely drawn out due to no AC connections for a while. Restoring the full charge would take several DAYS to recover, so the problem you had with DC issues: Batteries were extremely low, much lower than the regulation threshold, so DC appeared.

Having left the preamp hooked on AC enough time has restored batteries so now you don't have DC issue when in battery mode (except that you still must turn the volume down when changing input source).

When you talk about "switching in battery mode", I suppose that you remove either the AC cord (edit; yes i do exactly that) or the umbilical, since there is no real switch to do that.
When the preamp has enough charge (after several days, or even a week), the power led will eventually goes off when the preamp is off. As long as the power led is illuminated when the preamp is off, charging is not completed and the preamp doe not run in battery mode until unplugging AC cord.

When not using the preamp it is very important to plug it on the AC again, or batteries will be drawn out again. In case of non use (unplugged) for more than 1 day (or for shipping) it is strongly recommended opening it and unplugging the battery connectors inside, located at the middle of the preamp, on the bottom of the main PCB.

When the machine is in battery mode, you can still hear slight difference when the umbilical in plugged or not, even if the external power circuit is fully switched off. This is due to some residual coupling with AC mains, but the difference is marginal. (edit; this means it gets even better).

The preamp you have is also suffering from all software bugs, so the use is not the most convenient one you could expect... My own sample behaves as yours, but with full software fixes. Battery behavior remains the same, but after some days they were charged, and provided I do not listen for more than 6-8 hours a day, they are always charged for the next day... I mean that a "standard" user can perfectly live with a pre-serial - debugged - sample... :-)"

**************

Herve also sent me info on how the production (commercial) units will work that i thought would be of interest.

**************

"All the following for the coming commercial release:

The new release will NOT drain current when off, and the charging process will be much smarter: always battery mode when switched ON, always charging when switched OFF. If batteries will go low during playback it will switch to AC mode, but if you will switch it off, you won't need to wait for the full charge before benefiting for battery mode: if you leave it for 1-2 hours off, you will have 2-3 hours on battery mode at power on, and of course more if you leave it off longer. No memory effect on batteries guaranteed, whatever the charge state. When leaving the preamp always on you will cycle the batteries continuously (about 8 hours charging, 12 hours discharging) and the total span life will be around 3 years. When using the preamp "normally", say, with quite intensive listening 4 hours a day and 5/7, you can expect a life span of 5-10 years (the figure is no more precise at the moment since we have to complete our tests; we think it is closer to 10 years than 5).

As most parts of the preamp will NOT be energized when the preamp will be off, it will take about 20-30 minutes to sound good. There is little difference, since small devices are much faster at right temperature than power devices.

This time, there will be NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL in battery mode with AC/umbilical plug removed or not. We will add AC relays in the external power supply, so in battery mode these relays will be activated, opening the AC circuit, EXACTLY as if you would unplug the cord: doing so would not improve things further, as you cannot better switch off a bulb you already removed from the lamp... :-)

______________________________________________________________

As for the sound, both machines are completely identical, and there is not a single component or layout change about the signal path in both versions. Differences will be mainly addressing the battery behavior, removing some remaining small caveats in the volume control command, and also a - hopefully - less directional, more sensitive IR receiver."

************

i contemplated trying to explain the above myself but figured it would be better to just quote Herve's e-mail to me. however you describe it; the sound is miraculous.

Ah, Mike. . . . Analog vs. digital. It begins anew. Well, you know where I stand on that one. :)

Husk; after a quick review of my recent posts (specifically refering to battery power) i did find that each of my comments included a reference to either digital or analog.

if i were to summerize; i would say that since analog includes the battery powered phono stage as well as the preamp; analog is more dramatically improved than the digital. maybe if the power supply of the DAC was battery powered there would be the same level of improvement with digital.

also, analog is dealing with a higher potential for performance as it has more information.

;^)

every self respecting thread needs at least one analog verses digital comment.

Mike, In your latest thread, were you listening to analog or digital? Thanks, Husk

FYI, i am now listening to the pre exclusivly thru battery mode; i will never go back. since i am still breaking in the dart amps i do leave it in AC mode when i'm not in the room; but switch to battery mode when listening. I am using the remote without incident including muting; whatever 'gremlin' caused the initial battery mode issues has vanished. i do still need to power down to switch to battery mode (unplug the pre); the regular production run of dart pre's will automatically be in battery mode without the need to worry about it. i have not found a limit to the length of time i can be in battery mode or even the slightest clue that the batteries are running down; i am told that the pre will do 'at least 12 continuous hours' in battery mode and likely longer......i have done 7 continuous hours with no issue except my body's need for sleep.

there are so many amazing aspects to the performance of the pre in battery mode that it boggles the mind.......but i keep being startled by the effortlessness of everything. it's like the damn AC power was a chain around the sound......no matter how you try to make the chain 'pretty' or palatable......it limits what can be done in music reproduction; at least in terms of preamps.

however over-the-top this reads......it is my feelings at the moment.

Metralla :)

Mike writes:

i can tell she is looking at me while singing (i don't think she's my type)

That's somewhat a moot point, as you are not her's. I can see that toungue in your cheek from here ;-)

Regards,

Mike,please don't forget to post comparisons of the ZYX Univ and Dynavector XV-1s.This would be very interesting to many vinyl fans.Best regards!

I guess the key to the 50 Ohm cables, just as with video and digital cables, is that they are properly terminated a maintain a consistent 50 Ohm impedance from end to end.

Here is one 50 Ohm cable I'll be trying from L-Com- 18 awg solid silver coated copper with 2 silver coated copper braids for shielding. Wide bandwidth and extremely cheap- no loss in trying them.

http://www.l-com.com/jump.jsp?itemID=169&iMainCat=101&iSubCat=37&iSubSubCat=169&itemType=CATE

You are in for another performance level regarding bass and dynamics (among a few other things) once the amps are fully broken in. It's not subtle.

Keep us posted when that moment arrives.

Frank

thanks Fsarc and Sirspeedy, at the moment i am again listening to battery powered vinyl. hubba hubba!!

Janice Ian's 'Breaking Silence' at the moment. imagine that her voice is without all that breathyness (which turns out to be distortion).....it's just music. the transients are naked; without the 'fur' and overhang. it puts a strong pull on you.....it takes all my concentration to type anything. i want to close the laptop, turn down the lights, and groove with Janice.....and i can tell she is looking at me while singing (i don't think she's my type).

Fcarc, i'm using the 50 ohm cables that Herve provided for the ugly duckling (a 50 foot pair, with jumpers for the vertical bi-amping). it looks like about 10 bucks worth of garage sale cable. these are the same ones used at RMAF and last years CES.

i did buy a couple of Radio Shack 50 ohm 12' cables with BNC connectors.....which i used with my Placette (XLR from my switchbox to the Placette and XLR from the Placette to one channel of the darTZeel amps)......i used the BNC to jump from the channel with the XLR input to the other channel. it seemed to sound great.

the 12 footers from Radio Shack were about $17 each. will the Radio Shack BNC's sound as good as Herve's? good question. if i had the right connectors and two longer runs i could find out. according to jtinn Herve has some special machine that makes a proper connection and evidently that is significant.

the first thing i'm doing when i get the new fully functional dart pre is to compare cables; it's hard to imagine anything sounding better than how these BNC 'giant-killers' sound.....but you never know.

Mike,thanks for a really interesting,and thought provoking read.This must have taken you a good bit of time to keyboard,yet I LOVED it.Keep the follow up,and comparisons coming.

Best regards.

Great read Mike! Thanks for the update. You just made the waiting time that much more painful :-(

What 50 Ohm cables were you using between the preamp and amps?

Battery Power....WOW!!!

an update on the darTZeel preamp.

a week ago i retrieved the darTZeel (pre-production) preamp from the distributor. i am still breaking in my 2 darTZeel NHB-108 amps (another 10 days to go) so this last week i've been investigating the internal phono stage of the dart pre; trying to put a few hours on it and wanting to compare it to my Lamm LP2 phone stage. when i previously had the dart pre i only listened briefly to the phono stage and my comparisons were were quite limited.

there were a few challenges i had to get my answers. first, some deep background.

my long-term reference cartridge has been the vdH Colibri XCP 8.5mv output. i have always loved the clarity, naturalness and explosiveness of this cartridge. over the last couple of years as my room and system changed; i found that the balance of the Colibri XCP had made many of my favorite recordings too edgy for my tastes. i had gone from my Tenor OTL's to the Tenor Hybrid amps; from my old very damped room to my new very live room, from my old forgiving Kharma Exquisites to the VR9's.......my system was much more alive and told me more but was unforgiving of the Colibri's vividness. so after playing around with the Colibri and trying different setup approaches i tried the Dynavector XV-1s. the XV-1s had a much lower gain (.24mv) but was much more forgiving.....i gave up some of the excitement of the Colibri but more of my music was enjoyable than with the Colibri.

during this same time i had been using the darTZeel amps on and off. one significant issue was that the darTZeel was not an ideal match for my Placette passive and Jena Labs switchbox. i did not get the gain with that combo that i had got with the Tenor Hybrids and the Placette. the darTZeel design without global negative feedback and lower overall gain still worked with the .85mv output of the Colibri but was quite marginal with the XV-1s at .24mv output. there were not only gain issues but also impedence issues when using my Placette.

in any case i had been enjoying the XV-1s thru the Tenors and Placette and also thru the darTZeel amps and Placette (although with less dynamics and gain).

then at RMAF, a friend offered to allow me to try his ZYX Universe cartridge (also .24mv output) as a change of pace to the Dynavector XV-1's. To properly audition the .24mv output ZYX i did re-install my Tenor's 10 days ago so would have enough gain to properly hear it. compared to the Dynavector i found the Universe to be less lush but more energetic, similar in some ways to the Colibri but more buttoned down.

fortunately, last Saturday i found out i could again try the dart pre so i drove to Portland and picked it up. i then removed the Tenors and reinstalled the dart amps and installed the dart pre. the dart pre only has the proprietary 'zeel' outputs active so i had no choice of amps. the ZYX Universe remained and during the last week i listened to the Universe thru the dart pre and dart phono stage. the Dart phono stage had plenty of gain for the Universe.

sorry for the long explaination; but without that background; the following wouldn't make much sense (it may still not).

this brings me to last night; the challenge......how to compare the Lamm LP2 phono stage and the dart pre internal phono stage. i friend came over yesterday about 4pm to lend his ears and moral support.

i found that when using the internal dart phono stage (which is listed at 62db of gain) i had plenty of gain for both the ZYX Universe and the Dynavector XV-1s. OTOH when playing the Lamm LP2 thru the dart pre and dart amps; there was not enough gain to properly judge the performance of the ZYX or Dynavector.

so.....if i wanted to compare the two phono stages; i would have to install my trusty Colibri with it's .85mv output; this would allow the Lamm to have plenty of gain thru the dart combo (when using the dart pre as strictly a line stage).

i actually removed the ZYX and installed another of my cartridges (a Colibri XGW .65mv output) first...but had some sort of hum issue; then i did install my Colibri XCP and did a rough (5 minute) setup.

first, into the Lamm. very nice; with plenty of gain the Lamm and Colibri made a beautiful combination......probably the best overall vinyl performance i had yet heard.

the playlist;

Buena Vista Social Club, 'Candela' Classic 45 version.

For Duke, 'Take the A Train', M&K DTD.

It Might As Well Be Swing, Sinatra/Basie, 'Fly Me To The Moon', Reprise original pressing.

Hasten Down The Wind, Linda Ronstad, 'Crazy', Asylum

Cantate Domino, 'Julsang', Proprius.

The Royal Ballet, all of side 1, Classic 33rpm reissue.

we eventually played many more but these were played initially on the ZYX, then the Colibri with the Lamm, and then the Colibri thru the internal dart phono stage.

i had not played the Colibri thru the dart pre before; i now heard the magic of the Colibri that had captivated me for three years. the naturalness of the dart pre, combined with the dart amps and Lamm was all there, similar in dynamics to the Tenor/Placette but less edgy and with more body and transparency. the Colibri was doing things i had not heard from the Universe in terms of overall naturalness and clarity; it sounded effortless....alive.

we now switched to the internal dart phono stage; things were the same but better somehow; much more microdynamic, lower noise floor, more expanded soundstage. overall, the complete picture was better.....not night and day...but better. even though the Lamm has tubes and the dart does not; you would have a hard time choosing which phono stage had tubes. the Lamm may have been slightly 'darker'......but tonality asnd textures were at least as good with the dart phono stage. the Colibri thru the dart phono stage was just a little more 'compelling' and involving.

remember, the dart phono stage had maybe 15 hours on it at this point, was a pre-production version, and had loading at 100 ohms (the Colibri likes 400-500 ohms ideally....the Lamm is loaded at 400 ohms)......and we were listening to the in AC mode.

at this point my friend turns to me and says...."ok Mike, you can sell the Lamm with no regrets"......which had been the question of the night. the Lamm sounded great.....but the Dart was a little better.

it was now about 6:30pm last night and my friend needed to get home. i suggested that we try battery mode on the dart pre. i cautioned that i had only tried it a couple of times but there was some sort of 'gremlin' in this unit that was not sorted out and in battery mode it was somehow outputting DC and would likely blow fuses in the amps within 5 minutes.....but it would be a spectacular 5 minutes and it was not that big an deal to change the fuses.

i had only tried the battery mode briefly on digital but i guessed that it might actually make more difference on the phono stage.

so i carefully turned the pre volume down, turned off the amps, turned off the pre, unplugged the pre, turned the pre back on, waited 90 seconds, and turned the amps back on....so far, so good. i would avoid using the remote control or switching anything so as to avoid anything that might send out DC.

i put 'Fly Me To The Moon' on the Rockport, dropped the needle, turned up the volume and turned down the lights.

from the first note there was something very different; in fact before the first note you could tell.....the 'air' was different between and before the note.....it was more there. Frank's voice was more than a voice, he was there. i was not thinking in 'sonic checklist' terms.....more in human terms. dis-belief was suspended......for about 4 more hours it was suspended. my friend didn't need to leave after all.

i assumed the fuses would blow after about 5 minutes; i kept cringing whenever i would turn the volume up or down. we played another cut, then another. there was never any problem. i would just turn the volume down when cueing and there was no noise, hum or ANYTHING. dead silence.

the listening was simply one 'Oh My God' after another. in battery mode the dart pre phono easily stomps anything i have personally heard in many ways. first, it is soo quiet that everything is just soo effortless. there is no strain. music just flows. dynamics, both micro and macro surpass anything i have heard. microdynamic action makes things so alive and vivid. the tonality and textural nuance can only be described as like 'life' or lifelike.

we played 'Nojima Plays List'...the Mephisto Waltz. playing this music on a system with full frequency capability and thru this gear brought the piano fully to life in front of us. i don't have the words to describe it. if you have heard a concert grand piano then you know how it sounds....that is how it sounded.

we played The Royal Ballet, side 1. i can only say WOW and double WOW. the orchestra came completely to life in the room. i get goosebumps just thinking about it.

Blues (Muddy Water's Folk Singer), Rock (Neil Youngs Greatest Hits), Folk (Lorna Hunt, All in One Day)......everything was just really silly good.

after 4 hours of battery mode my friend did go home; i then listened to digital in battery mode for another 2 hours; then this morning listened to digital in battery mode for a couple more hours. same basic things......although not quite to the same degree as the phono stage is more significant to the vinyl perfromance.

battery mode dramatically lowers the noise floor, dramatically increases dynamics, and really brings an effortlessness to music that has to be heard before you could appreciate what it does.

i expect healthy skepticism to this post; until a few people are able to hear what this does for themselves in battery mode that is reasonable.

i still need to re-install both the Dynavector and ZYX to see how they compare in battery mode; hopefully i'll ge to that in the next few days. my new dart pre should be here by late November hopefully.

i type slow and i've already lost too much of my Sunday to this.....but i wanted to share my enjoyment.

FYI, I have it on VERY good information that even the original CDSD upsampled to 2x DSD, and it did so automatically. I will try and confirm that tonight.

Rich- Great post and info. I didn't even know my CDSD had those "features". I couldn't see the array of green lights you described through the transport, but I removed the cover and discovered an array of four orange lights that toggle in the manner you described.

Looking from the front of the transport, left to right, they were labeled- D8 D7 D6 D4

D8 is always off
D7 and D6 are always on
D4 toggles between on and off with the ALT/PLAY/STOP buttons

My DCC2 locks onto either mode.

I'm just wondering if D4 is 2xfs or 1xfs when on or off since my array is a little different.

I haven't done any listening comparisons between the two.

The "default" mode was D4 "off", so I wonder if that is indeed 2xfs as described in the manual.

Frank

I lied. I just verified with Philip O'Hanlon and it is the NEW CDSD which upsamples to 2X DSD. Either the DCC2 or the DAC6e will be able to read this

RMaurin

As best as I am aware the DAC6e with the discrete DAC's is the only unit which can read 2X DSD.The DCC2 does NOT have the discrete Meitner DAC's so I am unsure what you are hearing

Jafox, thanks for the comments. i agree that obvious 'raves' like mine do typically require a reader's personal experience to become credible. it CAN be arranged.

a couple of weeks ago i did have some visitors to investigate my perceptions of what the dart pre was doing in my system.......although they were hesitant to identify what was doing what......they were pretty taken with what they heard; compared to other previous sessions in my room.

i have not tried the K-S Emotion in my system. when i get the production version of the dart pre i will be investigating how regular cables will compare with the BNC approach of the dart. if i get the chance i'll try the K-S.....they are on my short list of cables i'd like to try.

Wow. Thanks for the information.

As far as the 2X DSD, the CDSD can switch between 1x fs and 2x fs by pressing the Alt-Play-Stop buttons simultaneously. Pressing the above button combination switches the 1x/2x multiplier. So pressing/releasing, pressing/releasing cycles 1xfs --> 2xfs --> 1xfs... and so on.

The DCC2 will lock with the CDSD at 1xfs and 2xfs. The DAC6 will only lock on 1xfs. I have the DCC2 and have tried switching multipliers. I can hear a difference between the 2. I prefer 2xfs.

In my particular CDSD, you can tell what multiplier you are listening to by looking into the CDSD through the transport draw and looking at the board to the right of the transport mechanism. There is an array of 4 green lights. The left most light is always off. The second and third light are always on. The fourth light goes on and off depending on the multiplier.

Light is off == 2xfs
Light is on == 1xfs

This is only when a CD is in the transport. When an SACD layer is active, all lights are off.

Rich

As I said "alleged"

I spoke to Andreas Koch (who is a neighbor of mine)last week. They were to have released an upgrade with ceramic rather than silicone boards however talking to him, they weren't that pleased withthe sound and are continuing to work on it.

As well the newest DAC6e now comes with Meitner's discrete DAC's and not those previously dictated by Sony--somewhat of an improvement. The newest version also have a gloss rather than satin finish on the front.

Having said all of this Andreas tells me they would like to come out with a "package" of upgrades with makes for a definite sonic improvement. This hopefully might materialize next year.

The other little known fact is that the newest DCC2 does not (as yet) come with the discrete DAC's....only the newest DAC6e. The newest CDSD has the ability for future firmware upgrades and those who have this new unit, be advised that there is available a firmware upgrade which can be done by inserting the CD-ROM for installation.

Lastly, the newest CDSD with the newest DAC6e has the ability to upsample to 2X DSD. For whatever reason however it does not sound as good as DSD

OB,

"Meitner releases there alleged big upgrade for their DAC in the coming year"

Can you give us more information?

Fsarc

"Also- what if Jeff Fritz had written a review of the Wilson X-2s or EMM DAC 6/CDSD and it was basically the same "tone" as the Dart review- honest, good reporting of what he heard, but felt these components were not competitive at their given price range. Fair enough?"

I honestly don't ever let a review or reviewer ever sway me one way or another. I have said time and again...for me it always boils down to 2 things...my ears and my wallet and I could care less what anyone ever had to say. After all it is my ass that sits in the sweet spot. Pick your flavor gentlemen

JTinn

"BTW... Since I am the one that was very hesitant to recommend you try the LAMM ML2.1's with the Wilson Alexandria, I am glad I was wrong and you are so pleased!"

Yes you were and yes I amp

I recently had my Ref 3 in for the upgrade where 4 bypass caps were added
The rep who did it is here in Campbell Ca. He made an interesting comment to me. He said that all too often he sees people chasing the "upgrade" ladder and never seem to be happy with what they have. He said at some point one must step back, enjoy what they have and just enjoy the music. I must admit that I am as guilty as any one else posting here but I am pretty much done until Meitner releases there alleged big upgrade for their DAC in the coming year. As far as amps, I feel I have arrived.

I am trying merely to get a feel for everyone's comments about the DarT.

Mike Lavigne

"when you say "anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system" i assume you mean that any person with ANY amp (not specifically the darTZeel) might have the same perceptions".

Yes that was what I intended on saying

Fsarc; i am not currently using battery mode. i did previously twice briefly (15 minutes total) hear this pre in battery mode and it was spooky good. this pre-production model is not fully sorted out so i am avoiding the battery mode.

what i heard during those brief glimses into the battery mode was a focus and naturalness that was unique. my perceptions on this are provisional; it takes time to get a handle on what is actually happening. the one thing that i heard that got me very excited was the additional micro dynamics and 'jump' factor in battery mode......very explosive and real sounding.

i can't wait for an extended session of battery mode listening.

OB, i was not referring to the ML2.1's with my reference to typical SET warmth or limitations. i should have expected that you might take my comments to refer to your amps; sorry; that was NOT my intention at all. i would guess we both agree that in those areas the ML2.1's are very much not typical. warmth and limitations in dynamics and frequency extention are typical of most SET's in my experience.

BTW, i would expect that my reaction to the ML2.1's in your system would be similar to other visitors; i would expect it to sound great.

reading your comments regarding my 'flowery prose'.....when you say "anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system" i assume you mean that any person with ANY amp (not specifically the darTZeel) might have the same perceptions. to a degree i can see your point. where i would disagree would be the affect with the darTZeel 'system' to somehow strip away a layer or two of distortion. like you i have listened to lots of gear......nothing has even approached what i percieve to be happening with the dart pre in my system.......and that is just using AC power. when i get a full production unit that uses battery it will go even further down this road.

i've certainly never assigned these attributes to any other amp or preamp; and i've heard quite a few pretty good ones.

i could be totally delusional and under the influence of the 'entity'......or my interpretation of the darTZeel's performance could be correct.

Oneobgyn: You might be confusing an amp that is broken in and had been turned on and after 5 minutes is at 90% vs. an amplifier which has not been broken in at all. Again, this is very definitive and everyone has reported the same experience. If you had ordered one from me, I would have told you about the break-in, just like I did for eveyone else. At that point, I am sure you would completely understand and agree.

BTW... Since I am the one that was very hesitant to recommend you try the LAMM ML2.1's with the Wilson Alexandria, I am glad I was wrong and you are so pleased!

OB- The owner's manual is referring to the fact that the amp is ALWAYS drawing a small amount of electricity and maintaining a "charge". After depressing the "POWER NOSE", which takes it out of standby (this is NOT a power switch that disconnects it from the mains), the amp will reach 95% of its potential after five minutes of actual playing time. The amp could be left on all the time and require no five minute warm up, but that would be a waste of electricity.

I read it as Mike referring to the improvement over other amps he has heard in his system (or other systems) and hence the differences the Dart combo brings. Certainly you wouldn't say you have the "same emotional involvement" in your system as when you had the Ref 2 and 600s versus the Ref 3 and 2.1 would you? Or the X-1 versus the X-2s?

Also- what if Jeff Fritz had written a review of the Wilson X-2s or EMM DAC 6/CDSD and it was basically the same "tone" as the Dart review- honest, good reporting of what he heard, but felt these components were not competitive at their given price range. Fair enough?

But how would you feel about those same reviews if you found out Jeff never adjusted the X2 upper modules for his listening position or ran an RCA digital cable between the Meitner pieces and never used the fiber optic connections? Still an honest review, but not totally accurate and representative of the products full potential. *IF* Jeff never removed the DC compensation on the Dart or allowed proper break-in, then he never heard the amp at its full potential and made his comparisons against other amps slightly compromised.

From the Dart manual:

"The third jumper, labeled DC Offset COMP, is the most important since it does affect the sound of the amplifier"

"In doing so, you will fully benefit from the very philisophy of the NHB-108 model one, which is to refuse any compensation or global negative feedback which could impair the sound."

Mike- Have you been using the preamp in battery mode? I know last time you had it, you may not have have even realized its true sonic potential. Any better this time now that it is back in your system?

Some components reveal their true character right out of the box and offer incremental refinements over time. Other components change character. The darTZeel belongs to the latter group. The amp starts off sounding like a nice little tube amp - sweet, fairly dimensional, with a polite bottom end - nothing to get exited about. Soundstaging at that point is average for a high-end amp - good but not world class. A few hundred hours into the process? Zowie! The authority and majesty of the low end explodes out of nowhere. What started off polite ends up powerful. A previously slightly recessed soundstage now blooms out into the room. The amp transforms from "really nice" to "holy shit!"

BKonig

Please help me therefore to understand why the DarTZeel owner's manual states that from a cold start the amp is 90%where it should be and 95% after the first 5 minutes of warm up?

Truly you are asking me to believe that an additional 4 weeks of break in creates that extra 5% of magic. I say this is a bit of a stretch of my imagination

Mike--I read and re-read countless times your flowery prosaic of your description of liquidity, palpability and delicacy to describe this amp. I would have to say that this description befits anyone who has the same emotional involvement with the amp in their system., I suppose that I could say that about my ML 2.1's and they were perfect right out of the box with no additional break-in. I maintain once again that this whole thing boils down to a "pick your flavor"--nothing more. I would also disagree with you in your depiction of an SET which you state

"an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed."

Having lived with my ML 2.1's now for the last 4 months I am simply amazed how 18wpc can do what they do to my X-2's and their 15" drivers.

Mike - What a great description here. I have read similar A'gon posts but yours is incredibly concise. I think the only way anyone can get an appreciation for what you have shared here is to ultimately experience this for themself.

With my system, there have been hints along the way to hear some of what you have described, but only this last week with a major overhaul of my system with Kubala-Sosna Emotion and Purist Dominus can I now truly relate to your response .... specifically the issue of textures.

Have you had the opportunity to hear the K-S Emotion cables in your system. I would be very interested to hear how they might work with your music system.

John

Oneobgyn:

In reference to your first point, I do not know what changed hands regarding the dartzeel review. When I mention money, it can simply be a manufacturer giving a component to a reviewer to keep and the reviewer in turn may develop an allegience to that manufacturer. These allegiences are the problem.

Regarding your second point, the Soundstage review, if the amp was not properly broken in, then it should not be compared to anything and should not be reviewed. I read the 6 moons review and this excerpt explains my point.
"My unit was not new. It was a review sample forwarded from another industry reviewer. For this piece, it took 2.5 weeks of continuous playing in addition to whatever the previous reviewer had put on it to arrive at sonic stability. It would have been an unforgivable mistake to evaluate this amp before then.
Some components reveal their true character right out of the box and offer incremental refinements over time. Other components change character. The darTZeel belongs to the latter group. The amp starts off sounding like a nice little tube amp - sweet, fairly dimensional, with a polite bottom end - nothing to get exited about. Soundstaging at that point is average for a high-end amp - good but not world class. A few hundred hours into the process? Zowie! The authority and majesty of the low end explodes out of nowhere. What started off polite ends up powerful. A previously slightly recessed soundstage now blooms out into the room. The amp transforms from "really nice" to "holy shit!"

OB, you have asked me a question 2 different times and for various reasons i had not yet answered you.....my apologies.

i was fortunate that yesterday i again took possesion of the pre-production darTZeel preamp......i drove to Portland and back.....got home at about 7:30pm last night.....plugged it in......and listened until about 3 in the morning. for the first few hours digital, then vinyl until i couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. i got my second wind at about 10;30pm and my third wind about 1:30am.

so my aurial memory is now 'real-time'.

so what the hell do i mean by 'liquidity, palpability, and delicacy' when describing this preamp?

when i say 'this preamp' i mean the pre-production dart pre, the pair of Stereo dart NHB-108 amps, and the BNC cables connecting them. since i can only use the proprietary connection at this time i cannot assign cause and effect between the pre, the amps and the cables.

by 'liquidity' i mean 'liquid' as opposed to 'dry'. real life has a lack of edge; if you close your eyes and concentrate on real life sounds (not reproduced) there is no real edge to sounds, even fingernails on a blackboard have no 'outline' or abrupt starting point. real sounds are not 'dry' and lifeless. real sounds are rendered in a context of 'air' around them; they exist in relation to what else is happening.

an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed. the tube warmth of a typical SET amp does portray a type of liquidity, or lack of 'dryness'. the darTzeel combo's liquidity is more a removal of distortion than an added something. my interpreation of what i hear from the dart pre is that a layer of 'hash' or distortion is removed from the music that leaves that more real liquidity that more closely resembles real life.

the tangible benefits of this lack of distortion or 'liquidity' is more real detail. this is easiest to hear with massed strngs or choral works; where it is easy to tell what is different. whereas previously, these musical events were percieved as 'those musicians or instruments over there'....now they are percieved as that group of players over there singing/playing together but now each 'voice' has a purpose and message. it greatly enhances the musical gestault and draws me into the music. i am listening to an event and not the playback chain with it's own character.

palpability is the sense of realistic size and shape of things; also of true flavor, texture, and action. is there something real connected to that sound? is dis-belief suspended? is there a sense of natural scale and feeling? can i taste it? feel it? am i there?

is it palpable? is it real?

delicacy is simply the ability to complete tiny things correctly; and not obscure or artifically interpret the tiny but all-important heart of acoustic music. when music is delicate......it moves me.

these three issues are connected; the dart combo does these things at another level or two higher than i have yet heard before. at first it is a little disorienting; since some of your reference recordings have such a different feel. but after relaxing into the music i have found that everything is just more real.

again; i apologise for the delay in my answer; my heart was just not into the beauty of music for a few days.

"2. People in general may have their own agendas. It is no secret to people that have some connection to this world that money sometimes talks. Advertising dollars and $$$ in general can sometimes have an impact on a review. That is why reviews (along with a lack of respect some may have for individual reviewers), must be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, like every other profession, some reviewers are better than others.
One quick story to validate my point - At the stereophile show this year, I overheard a reviewer (not a stereophile reviewer) talking with a friend. He stated that he asked a speaker manufacturer (fairly well know but I will not mention any names) what they can do on a pair of XX model speakers. The reviewer was bragging that he got the speakers outright (a $7,000 pair) and the reviewer mentioned to his friend that he will have to write something good about the product. I overheard this story when I was helping a manufacturer break down his room.
Keep in mind that I believe that many reviews are honest ones. The problem is that the public will never know which ones they are."

BKonig

Am I to infer from your post above that because no money changed hands or dealer accommodation given to the reviewer (Fritz) for the amp that his review was an honest one?

I have said before that I know both Jeff Fritz and JTinn. I have read the review several times and to me the only apparent negative was the inherent price of the amplifier and that when compared to others in this price range Jeff felt that the consumer does have options to consider.

"3. I am a customer of Jtinn. That is because he is the most knowledgable, honest, reliable, caring person I have met in my 25+ years in audio. His customers needs come before the sale. For example, my friend was interested in the Dartzeel amp. Jtinns first question was 'Which speakers are you using? He then responded by saying that he believes the speakers are too inefficient for the amp and wound up selling him nothing."

Notwithstanding some of the posts in this thread, I would wholeheartedly agree with Bkonig. I am a customer of Jonathan's for a few of my pieces and his customer service and advice is amongst the best I have encountered. He is always a pleasure to speak with, and often goes above and beyond in trying to get any questions or concerns answered immediately.

In keeping with this thread, I might have some comments about the preamp in November.

Frank and Andy- I am so glad your friendship is stronger than some contentious words posted on the internet. Life is too short to argue about the merits of an amplifier/review.

Although as I stated previously, I am done with my involvement in this thread, I DID promise Hooper (Andy) during our chat the other night that I would post to confirm that he and I discussed our issues in this gentleman's hobby in a gentlemanly manner. So I am keeping that promise. Andy, it was good chatting with you the other night and I am glad we continue to be friends despite our different tastes in gear.

I won't be at the next SE Mich Audiophile meeting on 11/12 as I will be out of town (it was originally set for 11/5 a day I WAS avaialable) - I hope to see you at the next meeting.

I do not often participate but feel compelled to do so now that the smoke seemed to clear.

1. Break in is real and will vary from component to component. My Verity Parsifal Encores sounded absolutely horrible when new. Also, I have read countless reviews where the reviewer mentioned that they ran in a component in a separate room for X amount of weeks prior to audition. If a reviewer does not have the time or facilities to insure that the product is properly auditioned (proper room, associated components, etc), then they should not be in the business of reviewing.

2. People in general may have their own agendas. It is no secret to people that have some connection to this world that money sometimes talks. Advertising dollars and $$$ in general can sometimes have an impact on a review. That is why reviews (along with a lack of respect some may have for individual reviewers), must be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, like every other profession, some reviewers are better than others.
One quick story to validate my point - At the stereophile show this year, I overheard a reviewer (not a stereophile reviewer) talking with a friend. He stated that he asked a speaker manufacturer (fairly well know but I will not mention any names) what they can do on a pair of XX model speakers. The reviewer was bragging that he got the speakers outright (a $7,000 pair) and the reviewer mentioned to his friend that he will have to write something good about the product. I overheard this story when I was helping a manufacturer break down his room.
Keep in mind that I believe that many reviews are honest ones. The problem is that the public will never know which ones they are.

3. I am a customer of Jtinn. That is because he is the most knowledgable, honest, reliable, caring person I have met in my 25+ years in audio. His customers needs come before the sale. For example, my friend was interested in the Dartzeel amp. Jtinns first question was 'Which speakers are you using? He then responded by saying that he believes the speakers are too inefficient for the amp and wound up selling him nothing.

4. I have owned various State of the art amps, and the dartzeel has exceeded my every expectation. A truely INCREDIBLE product.

And NO!!!! Jtinn did NOT put me up to writing this response.

Henryhk,

I'm afraid you are right. Still waiting for an audition of de dartzeel amp in my system. But I did heard the pricing in the Netherlands.
That would be 18000 euro. That's 21500 dollar!!!

Edzard

Kevinkwan: Since you do not know me either and want to make a joke out of this, so be it. That is your choice. Many of the people involved, even those accusing me of things, know the truth. I am 100% honest about all that has occurred. It certainly is easy enough to twist the truth as some have proven here.

BTW, The current President is an alien, isn't he?

Regarding the greed or mark up on pricing, and whether its due to curency movement (can;t explain the whole move up)...I think that is all beside the pt. If the product is very popular and supply is limited, prices will go up. Mfrs, distributors and retailers are all expected to maximize profits and whether they do so excessively to damage long-term relationships is judgement they have to make, just like any economic concern. All we can do as consumers is to decide whether the product is worth it at its new elevated price and/or whether we can afford it and act accordingly. No need to get all worked up about it in my book.

Fiddler: If you re-read my post, I was talking about those who posted here with no user accounts, just email addresses that were created specifically for this thread. It could be one person, or someone putting others up to it. OTOH, it could be totally innocent, but I doubt it. You and I have not agreed in the past and that is fine. I respect your opinion and if you read the threads that contain arguments that I am involved in, it is usually the same band of users that I tire of and just continue to target me instead of staying on point. They generally make it personal and I take the bait. These people generally make accusations, while having had no dealings with me and their motives are not honorable. With these people I am usually a bit too venemous. Early on, I stated my regret for how I said something. That should have been enough. Frank and I have a history that if I made it public, would explain much of what has taken place here.

Krjr: I am certainly sorry you feel the way you do, but the loss would be yours, not just from the standpoint of the loyalty and service that I provide, but you would really be missing out on an extraordinary line of products from darTZeel.

***Fmpnd: I just realized that most of the people here that are standing up for you and attacking me have email addresses and no user accounts here…I am wondering who is putting them up to it and who these people actually are.***

Dear Mr. Tinn: My bet is you wonder a lot of things. Like if your grocer puts the milk that expires first in front to poison you. Or if the next president of the United States will be an alien puppet from another, much larger planet sent here to destroy you. Mr. Peraino is an attorney right? Shouldn’t you be discussing your paranoid delusions and conspiracy theories with your psychiatrist instead?

Dear Mr. Sommer: I’m with you. I don’t care for the sound of shrill tin(n) but I do like solid-state. For me Krell is the right choice for all the right reasons. Great sound, great products, great company.

Mikelavigne, in your post regarding the sonics of the new DarTZeel Preamp you stated that it was the first preamp, compared to 15 other reference level preamps you had auditioned, that was superior to the Placette passive line stage. What a great complement both to Guy Hammel the designer/builder and the piece itself. You are comparing a $1500.00 linestage to a $19000.00 linestage! It BETTER sound MAGNIFICENT and be a qualitative shift for the extra $17500.00. In my system I have a Placette active dual mono linestage which I think is a great bargain at $4500.00. I too auditioned about 10 preamps, both tube/solidstate, and thought the Placette had many virtues and no downside, so it was a keeper. It's all personnal taste and synergy, so their's no right or wrong, so if your affluent enough to spend what ever you want for whats really a slight change or different "flavor" bless you. I'm sure the DarTZeel ranks with some of the best reference preamps out there, it should for $19000.00, however for us not as affluent audiophiles, we try to get the greatest performance for the the least amount of bucks. So, based on quality of construction/performance vs. cost I think I'll be sticking to Mr. Hammel's linestage, unless maybe I win the lottery so cost becomes irrelevant and I can buy anything I want regardless of cost compared to performance. Now, you boys can go back and fight with each other about who's telling the truth and who has the BEST toys in the world.

With the recent press about the darTZeel products,
I was going to consider this on my next upgrade.
But after seeing the importer's childish behavior on this thread (as well as his need to get the final word in)
I would never consider a product represented by him.
PLEASE to have to rely on him for service????????

all, i have been watching TV for the last 4 days. this thread has made me avoid listening to music......as i don't want to be reminded of these issues. i listen to escape the daily stress and look forward to sharing in the audio community.

i accept my share of the blame.

this morning i am back listening.