Aqua La Voce or La Scala, owned a Yggdrasil before I had a La Voce a significant step forward in terms of timbres realism... La Scala is even better but closer to your higher price range, I use it in a secondary system as my reference DAC is a DCS Vivaldi, those products are up there regardless of price... do yourself a favour and go listen
DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000
What are the current top DAC choices in the approximately $5-$7K price range (new or used) that I should look at as possible upgrades to my current Metrum Adagio?
Having an on-board volume control is not a factor as I can operate my system either way. If I wanted to spend more I would look at Totaldac, Rockna Wavedream Signature, or one of the other top-end contenders, but I selected the price range to achieve a sound quality that is consistent with the rest of my system and because I don't want to spend more due to the still evolving nature of digital technology. I do like the more natural sound
(to my ears)
of NOS R2R DACs. So far, I have considered the three below, but none seem to be a slam-dunk upgrade from the Adagio, which still sounds pretty good in my system. The decision is complicated by having to "buy to try" so that I can hear one in my system. Maybe now is not the time for an upgrade. Any thoughts?
- Denafrips Terminator w/DSP board - Reportedly has the full body/dense tone type of sound I like, but also has a high'ish output impedance
- Holo May KTE - Reportedly measures great for an R2R DAC and has strong reviews
- Rockna Wavelight - Some reviewers like it but others put it in the middle of the pack for the price
231 responses Add your response
PS Audio has a well regarded trial period for their Direct Stream DAC. Updateable FPGA, Years old review. https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-page-2 |
this is why it is so important to hear stuff for yourself. Although you and a couple of reviewers indicate the Morpheus may have a touch more meat on the bones than the Adagio or Pavane, I have spoken with several others who have indicated they hear very little if any difference between the Morpheus and the Adagio. I have heard from a couple of people, and from Granny's post below, that the Morpheus is thin sounding, and from one industry insider who recommends using a preamp or buffer with either the Morpheus or the two top Metrum DACs. @mitch2 I also own Adagio since 2018 and used to follow your posts. Initially, i also found its sound to be a little dull and thin. Then after a year, I got hold of EAR868 tube amp and now the sound has become more full-bodied and a little more transparent. Maybe you need to consider changing/adding a tube preamp even for a few days to see if there is any change in the sound. I highly doubt if any other DAC can give you better sound in an almost similar price range. |
@rsjaurr One thing you said rings true for me and makes me reconsider my goals: I highly doubt if any other DAC can give you better sound in an almost similar price range.I am starting to wonder whether buying something else will only show me how good I have it currently with the Adagio. I want to stay with R2R so the Holo May KTE and the Mystique will stay on my list of DACs to satisfy my curiosity, and of course I would jump at a good deal on a used Totaldac. However, another consideration is the specific implementation. When I read about people who say so and so DAC is better than another DAC, I wonder about their implementation. For example, the USB input and RCA outputs on the Adagio/Pavane are not supposed to sound as good as the I2S input and balanced outputs (both of which I use). The rest of my digital chain (Ethernet/Bonn switch/TP Link Fiber Optic converters/Ethernet into the DX/Ethernet into the Metrum Ambre/I2S into the Adagio/then balanced outputs) should optimize the sound of the Adagio. Regarding preamps, I have owned the Lamm LL2 Deluxe, NAT Symetrical, CAT Ultimate MkII, and other pretty good tubed linestages, and none of those gave me as much satisfaction as my current SMc preamp. Thank you for the reminder that the Adagio is a pretty good DAC. |
Adagio/Pavane is a beautiful sounding DAC and it's a keeper for a longer time. I heard Cees is developing a new DAC for about 10K and we also know that his DACs are modular. You must have heard about their plan of upgrading Jade/Onyx to the levels of Adagio/Pavane. So Cees might think of upgrading the current Adagio/Pavane to the next level by changing the module. Wishful thinking but you never know. The addition of Marantz SA10 a few months back made me realize that something is wrong with the USB input of my Adagio. So I bought a used Gustard U12 to use the AES input of Adagio. Results were very surprising honestly. So now I plan to add Denafrips GAIA (or at least Hermes) and install the i2s module in Adagio to use i2s out of GAIA. Earlier I was thinking of buying either of Aurender N10, SOtM trifecta, Lumin U1, or dCS network bridge. So just a trial of U12 has saved me more than $4000. |
In my world, I2S out of the Ambre has been the best sounding input into the Adagio, followed by AES/EBU, with S/PDIF and USB being less desirable. To my ears, using Ethernet from the Roon Core into the Endpoint (i.e., the Metrum Ambre), and having no USB interfaces in the signal chain has been a sonic improvement - and yes, I did try some pretty good cables (i.e., Totaldac and Curious) as well as all the usual suspects in the world of small box USB do-dads. Since I also own a Jade, I did pre register for the DAC3 upgrade but wasn’t clear whether that upgrade also affected the Adagio/Pavane, although I let them know I own both. I have no experience with the Gustard U12 but I see it is a USB (input) converter so I assume your source is a computer. If you are able to use a direct Ethernet connection, the Ambre works great and was sonically comparable when I owned both it and the SOtM Ultra trifecta (slight differences but both units sounded good). The I2S output connector from the Gustard uses HDMI so you will need to adapt that to RJ45. Hopefully the Gustard or Metrum folks can help you with the wiring. Here is a review of the Gustard U12 with measurements, in case you have not seen it. BTW, if you heard positive improvements by using the Gustard U12, the Denafrips GAIA should perform very well for you since it looks like a serious piece of gear and quite versitile. |
Amber seems an obvious choice but I do not want Roon. One of my friends is using modded Amber with great success. I have built a computer audio transport in a Streacom FC10 chassis, powered by HDPlex200 LPS and OS is APL4. I have installed Cantata and use window10 to remotely control my transport. This works very well for me. But the problem is the USB input of Adagio which I want to avoid. U12 is only temporary till better quality GAIA or something similar is added. U16 has good reviews but GAIA has better specs on paper. SOtM is out due to the hassle of multiple boxes and their power supplies. Audio-gd DI-20HE is also out because of its i2s connector being RJ45. |
If you can live with the boxes, you can sometimes find all three SOtM Ultra units (including the switching PS, which is pretty good) being sold at a good price. They did sound good but in a full-bodied sort of way with maybe a smidgen less resolution than from the Ambre. Both were grainless and musical. It was really a pretty close comparison with the Ambre, and I owned both units at the same time. The Ambre was just a little more dynamic and hard-hitting and the SOtM a touch richer sounding. However, they were so close I chose to keep the Ambre because it is only one box and because it dropped Roon less often (from seldom for the SOtM unit to pretty much never for the Ambre) and was easier to restart after powering down. The GAIA looks like a nice unit. BTW, how did your friend modify the Ambre and in what ways did the modification make the Ambre sound better, if you can share? |
SOtM boxes are out because I already have many "boxes" from a cassette player, TT to monoblocks. I had to modify my rack a couple of times to accommodate these boxes. Most likely I'll go for GAIA to be future proof and to avoid any modification of my custom made server. GAIA has many input/output connectors and even both i2s types. My friend has done modifications to both hardware and software of Ambre. He used sd card to flash Ambre. |
Hi https://forum.audiogon.com/users/mitch2. Sure. I have the KTE edition. I upgraded from the Spring Level 3 (and actually kept that one, put it into my HT system for when I listen to 2 channel there). I find the May to be detailed, revealing, dynamic as you’d want for accurate reproduction, but with an analog-ish beauty to it. Non-fatiguing, just a constant joy to listen to. I really find it to be the best of both worlds - an analog sound (but without the rolloffs) from digital media. I got back into vinyl a couple of years ago, and now kinda regret it as I can get that sound from crappy low-res tracks, CD rips, and high res tracks (better as more bits are available of course) but it all sounds great. I have my 2 channel (with the May) in my home office, and have it on when working when possible etc. But my attention is very frequently drawn to the sound system as realistic sounds emanate from it - "oh, I guess I have Miles Davis in my home office with me now". Hope that helps. |
Maybe you don't have to spend as much as you think. Here's a review form over at Audiophile Style (formerly Computer Audiophile) that's done by a recording engineer who used his own recordings for evaluation: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/review-denafrips-pontus-dac-r966/ All the best, Nonoise |
@rsf507 - Mystique V3 with balanced outputs, it arrives tomorrow from an excellent seller (super fast ship) over on USAM who upgraded to an MSB. I am really curious the hear what all the rave reviews are about and how it compares to my Adagio. I have not seen any EVO level Mystiques for sale on the used market yet. The question of which input to use is interesting since my Ambre endpoint doesn’t have a USB output, but it does have S/PDIF and optical. If I want to use the USB input, then I need to give up the advantages of using a Roon endpoint and connect the Mystique directly to my Antipodes DX L3 server, or purchase something like the SOtM trio that I used to own. I connect the Adagio to the Ambre using I2S. |
@mitch2, congrats on the Mystique V3 balanced! That is exactly what I purchased a few months ago; it will be interesting to hear your thoughts on it. I'm using a Bricasti M5 with Roon to feed it's SPDIF input. I found its sound quality jumped significantly after upgrading my SPDIF streamer to the Bricasti. I've just ordered a Luna Orange USB cable to try with it, so I'm not sure which of those two inputs I'll ultimately prefer. |
With my Pi (running Roon) based SPDIF streamer, I definitely preferred the Mystique over the M3 in my system. Adding the M5 to the Mystique using the same SPDIF cable (Shunyata Anaconda ZTRON) brought it to a whole another level; I'm now kicking myself for not upgrading streamers years ago. The V3/M5 combo (assuming you can find a used Mystique V3) actually cost me less than the M3 with the integrated streamer would have. That being said, I was told by Bricasti and forum members that the M3 sounds its best with the integrated streamer, so assuming the M5 bump is the same for both DACs, plus add in the extra for the integrated solution, and yea I would now like to have that M3 in my system to compare. If it is simply a case of magnifying the strengths of each DAC, I likely would still prefer the V3, but I can't say for sure without hearing both combos. I'm truly shocked by the difference adding the M5 made. Being able to try the USB input on the V3 vs SPDIF is a nice bonus too. I also have an Anaconda AES cable and actually went to hook it up when I got the M5 and realized the V3 doesn't have an AES input :) Maybe someday I'll get an EVO which looks to have AES... I have an etherREGEN coming tomorrow to feed the M5, and am able to try it both with fiber and copper so that should be an interesting test. I'm now a strong believer of handling your digital signal with the utmost care :) |
@facten - I definitely agree with your recommendation to contact Ben directly as he is quite helpful, but I can share that I did contact him and as of a week ago he had 6 people on a pre-paid waiting list to receive a factory reconditioned Mystique V3 so it must be a popular option. I was just lucky to stumble across a V3 listed by a private seller and glad I was ready to respond quickly to purchase it. |
@ddafoe Please do keep updating as you add the EtherREGEN. I've been eyeing the M5 and you've got me even more interested. @mitch2 Congrats on the Evo. Really looking to hearing your impressions. And if anyone is interested in the M3, there's one with a built in streamer up on usam for 4k. Still waiting on my Holo May... |
Call me old fashioned or eccentric, I use Altmann Attraction DAC with the matching BYOB amp, both powered by 12V LiFePo4 fast response batteries. The sound could not be better, cleaner both at low and high freq.'s on my Living Voice speakers (which I installed after getting rid of my Zu Druid IVs). Very happy. |
Thanks for the support! We are really busy in this holiday seasons. Most of our stock ran out. We decided to roll out preorder basis for products that are backordered. Do check it out! Happy holidays! Cheers, Alvin Chee www.vinshineaudio.com |
@rsf507 - Fed Ex is really busy and delivered it later than expected - this evening. Since I have not had time to connect it, or to reengage the volume control on my preamp, I am going to need a couple of days or more to really get to know the DAC. I can set it up tomorrow to run amp-direct through a balanced Goldpoint attenuator I have here, but I will probably not know how good it really sounds until I can run it through my preamp. I would like to have it figured out before the end of the year in case I want to take advantage of current pricing on an EVO level Mystique DAC (before the planned 2021 price increase). |
Even considering a less than optimal set up, the Mystique V3 is sounding pretty darn good over here. Sort of a hard call vs. the Metrum Adagio since my system is currently set up for the Adagio DAC, using its own internal volume control. My current digital set up prior to the Mystique V3 goes like this:
The other possibility is to try a different endpont with a USB output, such as the SOtM trio that I used to own. I would like to get this figured out since the Mystique is possibly good enough to consider trading in on one of the new EVO models, which will be going up in price in January. I will not yet say the Mystique V3 is flat out better than the Adagio but it plays harder and fuller in the bass and has perhaps a bit more tonal color over all. So far, what I would call it is a very musically addictive DAC. |
I hear you on all the connections. The system was optimized for the Adagio, which is different from the Mystique in two significant ways, the Adagio uses an I2S input and it has a lossless internal volume control. Since the Mystique has neither an I2S input or a volume control, I now have to sort out whether S/PDIF or USB input sounds better and a method of controlling volume. I am going to try it connected directly to my Antipodes DX server, which can perform duties of both the Roon Core and Endpoint when used through its USB output. I will get it figured out. |
Gosh, this thread could drive you nuts. Suggestions all over the map without any regard for what speakers one is using or the overall sound of one's system. Still gets down to listening in your home. If buying without hearing, then the question should be how does a particular DAC sound in the context of the system in which it is being used compared to the DAC it replaced. Otherwise, it is just masturbation is it not? Sorry, my wife has tested positive for Covid19 and the quarantine is starting to get to me. Thanks for listening, Dsper |
@rsf507 Opting to max out the Evo’s B4B (Bang 4 Buck) options seems counter-intuitive. One might as well select the Pro and max out those options. Here are the options I selected for the B4B:
My name was placed on the build schedule at the end of November. I hope to receive the Mystique Evo B4B this month. |
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Thanks, I'll post my thoughts about the Evo in the dedicated Evo thread so that we don't derail this thread. |
@cal3713 I do like the Mojo Mystique V3. The attributes that set this one apart for me include its fleshed-out, natural-sounding tonality, excellent dynamics, and hard-hitting bass, which probably results from the overbuilt power supply. The sound stage seems to have realistic proportions with respect to singers and instruments being stationary and in proportion to each other, but I am typically more focused on tone and dynamics so may not be the best judge of how that aspect may relate to other DACs. After trying various set-ups, at least in my system, I like the USB input best. Because of my system layout, I was really hoping the S/PDIF input would sound just as good or better so I could continue running Ethernet from my Antipodes server to my Metrum converter/endpoint and then a short digital cable into the V3 DAC (I was previously using I2S from the endpoint into my Metrum Adagio). However, to my ears it sounds better using a USB cable directly from the Antipodes DX L3 into the Mystique V3, so I repositioned the DAC closer to the server, which requires that I run longer IC cables into my preamp. Of the cables I have on-hand, the Curious sounded better than the Totaldac D1, which is the opposite what I had previously encountered (I wonder how the Curious Evolved would sound?). The decision to upgrade was difficult because the V3 sounds so good. However, I like the idea that the new EVO units are more modular and will be easier to upgrade in the future and, of course, Benjamin says they sound better. Therefore, I am currently finalizing the details of an upgrade to the B4B EVO. |