DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000

@mitch2  - agree with everything you say about the importance of power sections - and Ben does a great job there.   The EVO weights 29 pounds!  Definitely trial the EVO if you can.  

PM me if you live in Florida - maybe we can connect.  I'm bringing my EVO to another Agon member's home in Palm Beach this weekend so he can give it a listen.  He runs an Antipodes DX like you.  

Hello,
You need to demo all of this. You are talking about thousands of dollars. You may love or dislike R2R DAC like Denifrips or the same of a chip based DAC. First figure out weather you prefer Honda (R2R) or Toyota (Chip based).Next go as high price as you can go. From what I’ve read on these forums price typically follows tech or power. Denifrips doubles power and tech (R2R) count as you go up. Make sure it has the amount and style of connections you want to go with your gear. Can it decipher your preferences. Does it do DSD or MQA? Is this it for a long time or are you going to get a better DAC next year. If you can wait and save up more money does it put you at the next level of DAC. Just like that Honda or Toyota you lose money as soon as you buy it new. Finally , a tried and true test of a piece of equipment. How many are for sale used. If no body appears to want to let this unit go it might be incredible. If there are a lot for sale then there is probably a reason why. Most people want to keep there Toyota Tacoma or they sell them used for top dollar.

A good audio friend of mine had the new Sonnet Digital Audio Morpheus and well as the latest Denafrips Terminator with DSP board in his home. He also owned the Mojo Mystique 3. He felt both dacs were rather electronic sounding compared to the Mojo. After living with the Mojo in his system for a year he simply could not enjoy music nearly as much with the other two dacs. He just purchased the new Evo.

He was very disappointed with the Terminator saying the upper mids and highs were too forced and not natural sounding like the Mojo. Hyper detail was there with the Terminator, but not his cup of tea. This is most likely more a comment on how good the Mojo is as opposed to how disappointing the Terminator was to him.

@mitch2 The buying experience went well.  I used paypal.  Vincent sent me a link to pay.  Took about 3 weeks to get?  Around that, pretty quick all in all.  My Salk speakers took just under 6 months, so I was prepared to wait some.
Vincent has answered any questions I have had (not many) within one business day and I have not had any reason for support. 
I haven't even tried the USB output yet as I have a Singxer SU-1 KTE edition that I use with AES. But I did get the USB cable.  Someday I will try it.
I figure, like you mentioned, I can get this now, then upgrade later for the difference in model costs plus the $350 fee.  $6k ain't no chicken feed to me, so maybe in a few years when I get the itch again I can swing $3k to upgrade to a higher model and any software updates.

An agon audio acquaintance of mine just bought a new MOJO Evo.  I think after we've both had our units for a couple months we're going to do a temporary swap. Will allow both of us to compare the Evo and Holo Mays in our systems. Should be informative.

@cal3713 Is your acquaintance in the northern MN area?   

And perhaps out of your range, but if you're really thinking about Totaldac, there's an ad up for a d1-7 on the devialet chat sales page. It's an old ad from a dealer (I searched the username to see if it was legit), but is still available for ~€8000. I looked into it and even contacted the seller, but got scared off by the ASR TD measurements. I don't agree with their raw measurement perspective, but some of the TD outcomes were really troublesome.

@grannyring You got it!  Should have known we were both talking about the same person. I forgot about him mentioning the Sonnet.

So Funny. He has tried so many dacs after selling his Mojo. All of them came up short by a long way according to him. He kept telling me he made a big mistake selling it. He just had to see if there was something better 😊. Oh my!

He trialed a very costly Metronome dac, Lampi, Terminator, Sonnet, Audio Mirror maxed out and perhaps another one and none of them pleased him like your Mojo 👍.

He is getting his Evo tomorrow. He will be happy and has learned his lesson.

I doubt the Mojo ever leaves his home for any reason. Ha!

Purchase a Lyngdorf DAC. They throw in my favorite amplifier with it for FREE! https://lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com/lyngdorf-tdai-3400/Seriously, I am also digitally inclined as apparently you are. I went through an number of Tube/Class A/Class AB/ amps with a number of DAC combinations. I found nothing as good as the Lyngdorf. And the Lyngdorf also met or exceed all competition with analog inputs too. Which was a total surprise. But, to each their own. Just a different path to suggest.

@cal3713 , yeah the Totaldac measurements are a bit confusing but there are so many folks who like how they sound.  I will look into whether any of the Mojo DACs have been critically measured as I would be curious to see how they measure.  The Holo May has been measured by two publications and seems to have done well.  It is certainly nice when measurements and sonics align, but it does not occur in every case and for me it is not absolutely necessary as long as I like the sonics.

@grannyring , everybody says their gear is "upgradable" but the reality is that in this hobby I have heard that more than seen it.  In many cases the new technologies force changes that are not retrofittable.  In other cases, it simply doesn't make economic sense.  One thing for sure, Ben's 45 day trial period is generous and if I decide to take advantage of that I will be committed to purchase except in the event the sonics simply don't match my preferences.  I would be interested in what your friend thinks of his Morpheus.  I am still not convinced it is a better sounding DAC than the two upper end Metrum DACs, based on reports from people who have owned both and also considering the less robust power supply and reduced level of isolation compared to the Pavane L3 and Adagio.  I am in a good position of having a pretty good sounding set-up currently so can afford to be patient as I search for something better and a bit different.

@jgoldrick , thank you for the additional information on Totaldac. 

@mitch2 He really did not like the Sonnet. Lacked body and weight. Not enough bass and again too electronic sounding vs his time with the Mojo. He thought the Sonnet sounded weak and “fragile” vs the solidity, ease, control and foundation sonically of the Mojo.

@grannyring I may have purchased his v3, as the seller was from MN :)

We've discussed the DAC recently and he was telling me how it has been tough for him to find a replacement for it...   I'm certainly very happy with it!

@grannyring , I heard those same comments about the Morpheus relative to the Pavane and Adagio, although the reviewers did not seem to think so.  I sometimes wonder about reviews but have previously found Srajan at 6moons to be reliable and mostly aligned with what I hear.
I plan to reach out to Ben and see where that leads me.

Keep in mind Ben has never claimed his past dacs were upgradable.  He has really separated out the various parts of the Evo dac so they can be swapped out for new boards and/or parts. Look closely at the pics to see this. 

I personally upgraded my Mystique 3 to an Evo by upgrading chokes, USB card, wiring, opamps, grounding and  shielding. It was a royal pain in the rear.  Very difficult and a darn near impossible task. After seeing what he did to change that in the Evo it is a completely different task and upgrading will be much easier. 

Mitch

You say you like the natural sound of R2R DACs and you are looking for one in the $5K - $7K range?
You have exactly that in the Adagio.
I have the Pavane, same as the Adagio w/out the volume control.

I had the Sonnet Morpheus for a while and A/B it with the Pavane feeding both with a Metrum Ambre streamer.
Very close but the Morpheus had a little more meat on the bones and more of a center image focus.
It's only $3500 because it uses a less expensive case than the Metrum's.

BTW. Sonnet is Metrum's former owner/engineers current company. The Morpheus is Cees Ruetenburg next version of his R2R design found in your Adagio and my Pavane.
I'll tell you he is currently working on the next design which is supposed to be a big step up.
FWIW.

Not sure what difference you're looking for. OCD HiFi channel guy on you tube does a DAC shootout where you can hear the same tracks through the Adagio and the Terminator as well as several others. Rockna might be one if I remember correctly.

Happy hunting

I went from an Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE DAC to a PS Audio DirectStream DAC.  While the Tubadour is a very, very good DAC, the DirectStream DAC sounds closer to my analog rig; it is also smoother with more detail.  

@rushfan71 , this is why it is so important to hear stuff for yourself.  Although you and a couple of reviewers indicate the Morpheus may have a touch more meat on the bones than the Adagio or Pavane, I have spoken with several others who have indicated they hear very little if any difference between the Morpheus and the Adagio.  I have heard from a couple of people, and from Granny's post below, that the Morpheus is thin sounding, and from one industry insider who recommends using a preamp or buffer with either the Morpheus or the two top Metrum DACs. 
My personal finding with both the Pavane and Adagio (both of which I have owned) is that they have good tone and detail but need a preamp or buffer to achieve the level of body I enjoy. I am hoping to find something with a similar level of tone, detail, and naturalness, but with a bit more body and weight.  It seems the Bricasti M3, Holo May KTE, and Mojo Mystique may provide this and also possibly the Rockna Wavelight and Terminator.   

I just got the Hugo M Scaler and the chord Quest  it will give you sound 16 time better then cd you can get the 2 for $6000.00
I did not see any negative  review on those 2 the sound is unbelievable


extends its upscaling performance to 768kHz (from 96kHz input data) for our dual-BNC-input DACs: Qutest,

All these DACs will give a different end sound out different systems, as most DACs I’ve heard have a frequency spectrum balance/presentation of their own. One more bottom end, one more top end, one having fuller mids or one having a slight dip in the upper mids/lower treble for smoothness or ‘no fatigue’. So if your system already has a slight beefy low end from preamp, amp or even room, the DAC with slight bit more low end may take you in the wrong direction..
I suppose this is true with every piece in a system...but I feel more DACs should strive to be even and linear, with little to no dips or humps in its frequency response and let us do all our personal ‘coloring’ in preamp, amp or speakers... The only one I’ve seen mentioned to be like this so far is the Mojo, as Grannyring has stated this detail here and similar in the EVO thread.. I’m sure there must be other DACs with this evenhanded approach, right?
I also wish more DACs had a dang vol control. The May comes with vol buttons on the remote that are not functional...yet? Makes me wonder if vol control function will be added to it (or a second edition May) in the future.

@oldschool1948 Ha. For me your comment is a perfect example of the point made by @jriggy

I’ve had both the Directstream and Audio Mirror in my system for extended periods and have come to the exact opposite conclusion.

In the end you just have to hear them in your own system.

I highly recommend the MSB Analog DAC with the separate power supply. Pricey when new, probably in your price range now, used.  I use it with the updated Renderer 2 module.  Sounds great, and handles DSD and MQA, and with the volume control, I no longer use a preamp either (although I know some people like to keep a preamp in the mix).

I hope to be understood right...

When we change an electronic component, amp,dac or speakers, we hear a difference in many aspect of S.Q.

Having said that i can say what i want to say and being understood...

In my actual audio system i dont have the impression that nothing is lacking much and more than that the music sound natural and my impression is that my speakers, dac, and amp. has NO sound of their own, no color, no emphasis on certain range of frequencies, and more important the instrument timbre sound right....

For sure my audio system has his personality so to speak, but when his personnality disapear for me and only the music is there the goal is reached....

The reason for that miracles is not coming from my choice of dac only, or amplifier, or speakers, however good they are; the reason is a rightful mechanical,electrical and acoustical embedding....

Then before throwing too much money in upgrade think about vibration control, decreasing the house noise floor, and controlling the acoustical dimension of your room.... If not, like said an acoustical engineer, no speakers can beat the room anyway; i will add no amplifier and no dac can defeat bad embeddings of the audio system either..

If you want to upgrade it must be for the good reason...

Myself i dont want, it is no more necessary...... :)

@mitch2 
That's interesting. I ran both of those DAC's through a Primaluna Dialogue Premium preamp.
That's how I was able to A/B them in real time. They sound very similar other than the differences I listed.
But thin sounding? Far from it.

Agree with @tvad the M3 is a very even full sounding dac. If you are looking for more bottom end or softening of the top end (my Lampi Big 6 did that) look elsewhere. 

@grannyring Hey Bill, do you know why it's desirable to have class a/b opamps on the dac output (as in the Mojo Evo)?

After reading so much about the benefits of class a in amplifier design, I have trouble figuring out why a/b would be more desirable on the i/v stage of the dac? Not criticising at all, just trying to understand the design decision...

That would be a question for Ben.  Like to hear from him on this.  

https://www.denafrips.com/
https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-40-denafrips-terminator-ares-ii-measurements

In his September 2020 Gramophone Dreams, Herb Reichert reported on two D/A processors from Chinese manufacturer Denafrips: their flagship Terminator, which costs $4498,

I contacted Ben at Mojo Audio.  Apparently there is a lot of interest in the Mojo Audio Mystique DACs, including refurbished V3s (if you can find one to refurbish) and especially the newer EVO range which Ben says is noticeably better sounding.   Kudos to Mojo Audio for supporting their older products.  The level of interest has resulted in some necessary lead time between ordering and receiving a DAC, which is expected.  This success also indicates the design parameters must be effective and is a good thing for Mojo Audio.  I continue to be impressed with what he is doing with the power supply and would not be surprised if I were to like the sound.  
While, for me, cost is not necessarily the overriding factor, I do like to keep things in perspective relative to not only the rest of my system but also to what I really want to spend for this purchase (vs. perhaps a really high quality gravel bicycle), and especially given the temporary nature of digital electronics where everything is the flavor of the day but it seems like the shelf life is only 2 or 3 years (in many cases) before something better comes along.
In the case of the Mystique EVO, it starts at $6K for the base model (which is in my range) but there are multiple options that are a "notable improvement" and can quickly push the price up by up to a couple of $K.  The middle of the range "bang for the buck" (B4B) model is $8K and subject to options as well.  This is well into Totaldac territory so I need to consider whether their products fit my purchase parameters.  I will not rule out the Mojo Audio DACs since the design philosophy seems to be aligned with what I have found to sound good, and also because they are a USA company that supports their former products, but I may take a step back and ask myself, since things sound pretty good now, what do I want to pay to move forward, especially with digital gear, where the cost to performance curve continues to flatten out as technology improves.  

Was curious on the Mystique EVO B4B dac so looked it up and adding all options like Lundahl core, Furutech upgrade, Lundahl PSU choke and best shielding it's over 12k. I'm sure it's a wonderful sounding dac but I believe for just over 5k for the Bricasti M3 you would be a happy camper.

I found the M3 to sound very nice in my system (Sim740P+Pass250.8+SpendorD9) but if the preferred sound is ' like the more natural sound (to my ears) of NOS R2R DACs' I personally didn't find the M3 to offer that compared to the Mystique v3; assuming the Evo is another step up from the v3 then I would question the need to upgrade the Evo to start; at least if comparing it to the M3.

Of the DACs I've tried at home I found the M3 to offer a similar sound if not more modern to the Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2 which I tried years ago when it was the hot DAC to have.  I ended up selling it for the slightly less resolving Sim380DSD, but one I thought offered a more analog like 'meat on the bones' style of sound.   I thought the M3 took dynamics and detail to another level over the 380DSD but I personally found it offered a slightly lean presentation.

I also tried the latest version of the RME ADI and found that sound signature more inline with the M3 than the M3 is with the Mystique.

The M3's analogue out is excellent though, and when fed direct into my Pass amp came very close to with my pre (which is ~2x the M3's price) so from that perspective it is a bargain.   Add $1K at initial purchase time for the streamer and that also is a bargain, as I just paid way more than that for the M5 to mate with the v3.   So for the M3's price I think it certainly offers all around good value, I personally think it is just a question of the type of sound one is looking for...

@ddafoe Great information. Thanks.

I checked out the Mojo Audio Mystique (Evo).  It look great.  But I want an optical input so that I can connect my TV Audio out to my two channel system.  At that list price the Mola Mola Tambaqui is very competitive.  Also the Tambaqui Streams as well as DAC so my Nucleus can reside in another room with near my Modem.

@fastfreight I believe that the lack of a toslink input option is just a website error. They had that option listed a few months ago when I checked. Ben also said he "could" put in an i2s connection, although he recommended strongly against it.

While it doesn’t show as an option in the drop down box selection, it is stated as an option in the product detail narrative

" Our Mystique EVO digital-to-analog converter converts PCM format files up to 24-bit 192KHz via Femto clocked USB, coaxial S/PDIF, or balanced AES. Optional BNC and TosLink optical available"

I have the base EVO , extremely happy with its sound and build/operation

Thanks for that guys!  Ken

If you are thinking about higher priced dacs then the Mola Mola Tambaqui could be of interest. I have only heard it once and shortly but it was good. There are some reviews of it.

Thanks for all the suggestions.  I strongly considered quite a few of the recommendations but in the end, and without the ability to hear these, I believe the Holo May KTE is the DAC I need to try.  It has pretty much everything I am looking for especially considering I have come to appreciate the sound of R2R NOS type DACs.  The Holo May KTE has a lot of features I was looking for, including a dual mono layout, huge power supply in a separate enclosure, I2S input, balanced outputs, decent sized display, and the ability to process PCM and DSD to high sampling rates.  The 40 pound weight indicates a solid build quality.  The DAC measurements reported by John Atkinson at Stereophile and by atomicbob on the Super Best Audio Friends site were very good and the print reviews so far indicate the DAC is very musical sounding. 

One thing the May doesn't do that I was sort of looking for is control volume but I can simply reengage the volume control in my SMc Audio preamp that I have continued to use as a buffer with my Metrum Ambre DAC that does control volume.  I have been working with SMc on how to replace the Shallco switch with another option that can be remote controlled and can provide a display.  I guess I will work on that project while I am waiting for the Holo Audio people to build my DAC.  

The main other contenders I would have liked to have heard were the Mojo Mystique EVO (any level), Mola Mola Tambaqui, Bricasti M3, and Weiss 501.  Of those, I probably had the most interest in the Mystique since it is an R2R DAC, but the others are all well known, all provide more features than the Mojo DAC, and are all reported to sound excellent.  Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Used Chord DAVE. (No need for an Mscaler with this.)If you are into DSD files or SACDs or like a really deep sense of detail (and a system that can handle some soaring highs), look for an EMM labs DAC or high-end CD player with DAC capablity. (Again, you will need to buy an EMM piece on the used market in the price range mentioned.)

until you get above that price point, think there is only one..the denafrips terminator.

The Mojo Mystique Evo Pro sure looks interesting, but with 500+ burned SACDs and DSD128 vinyl rips, I just can’t face the notion of being limited to PCM. I suppose Roon could be used to downsample DSD to 24/196, but that seems like a step backward. On the other hand, Terminator+ with GAIA and clocklink is thoroughly up to date. Has anybody compared these top current versions from Mojo and Denafrips? They are similarly priced at $11-13K.

@johnss 

until you get above that price point, think there is only one..the denafrips terminator.

I am curious what other contenders in the price range you compared with the Terminator - did you try the R2R Holo May KTE or the Bricasti M3 that have been discussed in this thread?  

@dgarretson.   I get your statement. I thought the same having come off the DSD Lampizator Amber 3 with upgrades/mods.  Never thought about it again once I heard how much better all my rips and streaming sounded with the Evo.  Don’t miss DSD and upsampling in the least. On the Mojo it all sounds better.  I am now solidly in the camp that NOS dacs, when done right, simply sound more real, natural and musical.  

@grannyring So interesting, after so many recent innovations in formats and multiples of sampling rates, to be drawn back to an non-oversampling R2R DAC. I’m looking at this from the perspective of an Esoteric K-01X, which has a fine DAC section at a higher price point, but I no longer spin discs. Never been a Lampi fan, which IMO always sounded syrupy. Apart from great sound, the K-01X is heroically built to a fit and finish well above Mojo--except that Mojo, in addition to its vintage NOS chip, dangles intriguing cottage industry cues like Lundahl amorphous trannies, graphene, ERS, 2575 nude resistors, etc. I’ve learned through DIY that these do make a difference, and you won’t find them in TOTL mainstream offers, probably owing to cost of goods. They do beckon. BTW, from the PCB photos it looks like the Mojo is not a fully balanced design, and uses a SE-to-balanced converter. Not a deal killer, but a compromise.

@mitch2 Sounds like maybe you've already located it, but if not you might consider the Tortuga epot.v3 mini. It's designed to screw into a chassis through the same hole as a standard volume control pot and add remote volume control (ldr or discrete resistors). I just had one added to my DHT preamp. They're reasonable and sound great according to many.

https://tortugaaudio.com/products/diy-preamp-components/electronic-stepped-attenuator-epot-v3-mini/

@dgarretson Not sure if this is indicative of the house sound changing or not, but the new lampizator amber 3 definitely doesn’t sound syrupy. Was very lively in my system. Too bright and incisive for my tastes (& system synergy) actually.

Also, just looked up your esoteric and it looks amazing. If you do find a dac that bests it please do report back.

@cal3713 
Thanks for the suggestion.  Does that use their LDR unit or something else?
I have been looking at Khozmo and Steve McCormack believes they will work for me.
Khozmo Shunt

For that kind of money you could buy a heck of a turntable... but that's just me. There are plenty of dacs under 1k and up to 2k that are just fine. Jeez, even my lowly musical fidelity v90 dac is great @ 299...

@mitch2 Your choice, an ldr or discrete resistors (.5% vs .1% max thd respectively). Each module is $50 and you can swap them out at will. My preamp builder tried both and liked both. Described the ldr as more organic and the resistor module as more transparent. Said neither were a compromise vs his standard TKD pot. Both modules also support 10db in balance control.

In the case of the ldr, your signal path only sees a single resistor. My builder said he couldn't use a khozmo because it produces too much noise to be in the same chassis as the dht tubes, but couldn't measure or hear any from the Tortuga. This is his first time using one. All sounds like a pretty promising solution to me. Tough to get quality remote VC and balance out there.