DAC Choices - $5,000 to $7,000

:)

Many until I found ladder DACs that worked with my Thiel CS5i's.

Gosh, this thread could drive you nuts.

Suggestions all over the map without any regard for what speakers one is using or the overall sound of one's system.

Still gets down to listening in your home.

If buying without hearing, then the question should be how does a particular DAC sound in the context of the system in which it is being used compared to the DAC it replaced.

Otherwise, it is just masturbation is it not?

Sorry, my wife has tested positive for Covid19 and the quarantine is starting to get to me.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

Hi All,

I was so impressed with my used Mystique DAC that I ordered a new EVO 4B4, which I received in mid-November; so I have been using it for about two months.

It took a while to break in and, at first, I thought I might have made a mistake. The EVO was immediately a bit more detailed and nuanced to me compared to the Mystique but the musicality was not there. The musicality has shown up after the first 100 hours along with what I would call liquidity; a term I have never used before to describe how my system sounds. The other thing I have noticed is that there is a better decay, which provides more sheen to the cymbals and a ring to the guitar if it is on the recording. Overall, the sound is generally better than it was with the Mystique.

The Mystique was a game changer for me as it was that much better than my old DACs. The EVO 4B4 is more of an incremental improvement on all fronts. I suspect that this relates to the old adage that you get what you pay for but there are diminshing returns.

My personal opinion based on keeping the same amp, speakers, transport, etc.; is that there is a price/quality relationship at the less than $2000, $2000 to $5000, and $5000 to $10000 price levels for DACs. This is my perspective based on my personal experience with my gear and the synergy (or not) of my components.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

 

 

 

 

 

Okay...

I have to ask even though this is supposed to be a $5K to $7K DAC Discussion. Please bear with me.

Has anyone tried a Topping DAC?

They seem to be all the rage in some circles. Audio Science Review rates its measurements of the D90 very highly:  (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/best-usb-dac-review-and-tested-2020-p...) and one very respected tube amp designer from a northern state apparently is using an E30 ($150 brand new) and says it sounds pretty good.

Now, I can understand that power supplies and analog out design are critical and lead to higher cost; but if you can afford a $7,000 DAC, don't you owe it to yourself to try one a cheap one just in case?

Heck, you probably spend more than that taking your significant other out to dinner for no especially special occasion. 

I mean no disrespect, but if you do not try something, how do you know? Otherwise, is it not like Primaluna suggesting that, because their Preamp weighs 50 pounds, it is better than an ARC, BAT, CJ, Don Sachs, VTL, etc.?

Please accept this question as an honest ask.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper 

Thanks for sharing your experiences and comments. They have restored my faith in audiophiles and I will reread this thread in a more accepting manner to learn more!

Have been thinking about a new DAC and was wondering if $6,000 gets a lot more than $3,000.

In the meantime, I continue to enjoy my Theta ProBasic III that I bought for $600 a couple of years ago. It was a big improvement when I was getting tired of trying ESS DAC's that were too analytical and fatiguing with my Thiel CS5i's. 

mahgister wrote

Sound in an abstract way is equally wave or bits, but in a concrete room sound is mostly only specific space and waves for specific ears, not bits....

You are certainly correct about that!

I have installed bass traps in the front wall corners and acoustic panels along the walls to tame treble reflections. When I am seriously listening, I cover the big screen TV with a blanket.

I have not spent the time to understand and analyze noise in the electric line and what are the typical ways to address this.

Another area I want to understand better is the relationship between the DAC output impedance relative to the preamp input impedance, and how much of that can you hear...

While the Theta DAC is better in terms of mids, highs and soundstage depth than my old Hegel HD25 DAC; the Hegel mid bass was better. That sort of indicates to me that I should continue to experiment with DACs.

I also want to experiment with balanced outputs to the preamp from the Theta, which I believe is fully balanced. I have read taking advantage of that will improve the sound.

As I reread this thread, the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC looks interesting. Just so many good reviews and I appreciate the design philosophy. Right now they have a refurbished V3 balanced for $4K with two year warranty.

The only problem with balanced is the need to change from my CJ 17LS2 preamp, which is single ended only, and why I am contemplating a Don Sachs preamp. Don and I have been trading emails and he assures me that his preamp will seem like a veil has been lifted from my speakers compared the CJ. He seems like a straight forward person who shares what he believes and is willing to challenge his customers.

Thanks for listening!

Dsper .

@divertiti Unless you want your dac quest into having to rebuild your entire system, maybe best to stick to choices that will work well with your existing components that you already own and like...

You are certainly correct. I think I have the amp and speakers settled although I want to try tube amps at which point I will need higher ohm speakers.

In the meantime, I keep aiming for a more live sound, which I think can come from more transparency and "presence" for my system.

That has led me to thinking about DAC and Preamp Upgrades.

@ddafoe
@ddafoe@dsper, I did exactly as you suggested last year; sold my Bricasti M3 and tried the ASR darlings RME ADI2 FS and Topping D90...

@d@divertiti@dsper Unless you want your dac quest into having to rebuild your entire system, maybe best to stick to choices that will work well with your existing components that you already own and like. 

I finally made some moves with DACs instead of just talking about it. First, I bought a Soekris 1341 DAC (unbalanced) for $900. This replaced my Theta ProBasic III. The only difference I truly heard was a bit more detail but not necessarily a better sounding DAC.

Then, I made a decision to try a more expensive DAC. With the Mystique EVO getting all the recent press, I was able to buy a Mystique V3, which was a $5500 DAC when new, at a good price.

It is an ear opener.

The V3 brings more bass to my system such that I can now hear the 25 Hz test tone on the Stereophile Test CD-2. Never could hear this before.

More importantly, the Mystique has awakened my Thiel CS5i's. Dynamic contrast is better and the sound seems to flow better. The imaging and soundstage has improved. I am not sure how to describe this exactly but the Thiel's are disappearing in a new way for me. I can look right at a speaker and "see" an instrument in front of the speaker. It is fleshed out like it is right there in the room.

Whoppee!

Thanks for listening!

Dsper

FWIW...

A quick update on the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 compared to a Soekris 1421 and Theta ProBasic III.

I have been playing all three DACs in my system for about two weeks now. Perfectwave Transport, CJ 17LS2 preamp, DNA-500 amp, and Thiel CS5i speakers.

Musicality: Mystique is the most musical as I catch myself listening into the music and not the sound. It has the best pace/beat and is toe tapping; followed by the Theta, and then the Soekris. 

Emotion: Mystique blows the other two away in this this category. Sort of ties in the with musicality for me.

Space: Mystique does space well with lots of ambient clues. Best depth of soundstage followed by Theta and then Soekris or Soekris and then Theta depending on recording. Hard to describe this.

Soundstage (or Imaging?): The Mystique can make me think there is an instrument distinctly in front of the speaker and it is extending sound to the outside of the speakers. This does not happen with the Soekris or the Theta. 

Detail: Soekris and Mystique are pretty much a tie. The Theta is slightly behind. This shows up in the treble for me as the Theta can sound slightly more harsh than the other two on bright recordings. I am thinking it is not giving enough detail to the Thiel tweeters, which can be a pain if not fed properly.

Dynamics: Mystique and Soekris are very close followed by the Theta.

Bass: Mystique is the most textured and nuanced followed by Theta and then Soekris. Deepest bass is maybe the Soekris followed by the Mystique. Theta is very close to the other two. 

Sorting out vocals and instruments: Mystique followed by Soekris. Theta, is not that far behind the Soekris.

Summary: I think the better power supply and whatever the Mojo Audio folks are doing in the output stage makes the Mystique sound the most real with live presence to me. The Soekris, at 1/6th of the retail price of the Mystique, is a good DAC but it is not as musical and nuanced, which are real important to me. The Theta, $2700 when new, stands up pretty well for a twenty year old DAC.. Depending on your priorities and system, you might prefer it to the Soekris. 

YMMV.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper