Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

Srajan Ebaen / 6 Moons page 2 of his Nenuphar F10 Neo V2 review:

Nenuphar F10 Neo V2 page 2 review from 6Moons

Quoting from the above:

 

"The question on the minds of current Nenuphar owners is obvious: should they step up to the V2?  Chances are steep. They've carefully cultivated then locked in their ideal balance with the right amplifier and DAC already. If owner acceptance of personal right lives inside a very narrow window, that balance will predictably tip. Now it'll need readdressing; again. That could mean more hardware expenses. I can't predict the appeal of that unless one was still laboring over this balance."

- Srajan Ebaen / 6Moons

Seems to me if current Nenuphar owners have their system dialed in to their liking, I’d leave well enough alone. Or as Ebaen suggested you’re just changing components/cables again in an attempt to match the voicing of the new driver.

 

If one feels they will benefit from the fuller voiced new driver then go for it.I believe the original driver is a remarkable achievement.

Charles

Perhaps the most important quality of the Nenuphar's--for me--is their ability, with the right amp, etc., to create a bewitching or what SE described as a psychotropic sense of presence.  In describing the sound of the upgraded driver, SE claims it has "a bit less presence-region amplitude, more weight."  This is a big red flag for me, especially since I've achieved "more weight" from the addition of a sub.  Losing this upper mid-range-presence-magic might be impossible to regain with component or cable swapping.

Just conjecture on my part, since I haven’t heard the new driver, but I have been following six moons for quite some time and heard some of the same equipment so I feel I have a general frame of reference, I welcome the change or perhaps addition -maybe they should make both drivers available. Srajan doesn’t seem to suggest that the new driver is better, just different. However, I think it’s great there might be a single driver speaker with a warmer tonal balance. Not everyone wants to dance on the knifes edge but still enjoys the things that single driver speakers do well such as easy to drive, no driver discontinuities, great imaging, etc. Just my two cents.

@stephendunn 

Good observations. It seems pretty clear to me that Srajan was making the case that the new driver is "different " rather than better. It would be really nice if both speaker drivers were to be available. I believe that the new driver loses 2 db of sensitivity. 

Charles 

new driver is "different " rather than better. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes correct I just cked the web site, Cube mentions **Our Mark 2 cone is now in our speakers..** But Cube does not specify exactly what is so dif in cone material. Cube fails to mention exactly what the original cone material is made of, nor what is so dif in the new cone composition. The pics look identical. I see nothing new in the photos. \ = Cones look identical. Someone please tell me whats going on? I think we all deserve to know. The prices seem to be the same. Cube needs to come out with a video explaining exactly what is the dif between old cone vs new cone. And in terms of bass, mids highs between the 2 cones. I think Cube handled this new upgrade with a stand-off-ish-ness. A bit too rushed , or lets say, lack on planed implimentation..in the intro of the new **break-through*.

Just my two cents. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Well thats all we got to go on right now as things stand,, 2 cents and a opinion, buys you not even a StarBucks cappicino.

@mozartfan

"I think Cube handled this new upgrade with a stand-off-ish-ness. A bit too rushed , or lets say, lack on planed implimentation..in the intro of the new **break-through".

 

I don’t believe that there was a "rush" in the development/implementation process. Cube Audio strikes me as very deliberate and methodical in these matters. I like you, do yearn for more specific information as to the differences between the original and new driver. Pure curiosity I’ll admit. My gut feeling is that both are superb drivers and the choice is totally dependant on listener objectives.

Charles

@toetapaudio Robert, any updates from Cube Audio that you are able to share?

It would be helpful and nice to see the specifications of the new driver version and comparative data for both drivers (as standalone drivers and as implemented in the Nenuphar speaker cabinet).

@paullb  and @stephendunn  +1 to both of your posts. Great points and perspective!

@David_ten

+1 on impedance and frequency response graphs of the two drivers.

@paullb Mentioning the following in case it is of interest:

Since Srajan Ebaen’s ’review’ makes note of these differences between the two versions of the drivers as implemented in the Nenuphar speaker cabinet...

If I move my listening position back by ~ 6 feet; which results in my standard-position toe-in coming to a point ~ 2 feet in front of me:

the effect (using SB’s terms) is a downward shift in weight, increased "blackness" and a reduction in the "incisiveness in the presence region"...the penalty: is a decrease in sound stage width...

[NOTE: a small couch (my preferred listening position) is likely a contributor as it is now in front of me; this outcome may be simply specific to my room, etc. etc.]

David, things are moving rather slowly atm. I’ll send my drivers off in the New Year now and in the meanwhile I’ll try and get hold of some technical details.

Happy  Christmas to everyone.

If you have Roon you can adjust the DSP.  I found that -1dB at 4000Hz and +1.5dB at 100Hz (both 1 for Q) with the Sample Rate Conversion set at smooth linear phase sounds excellent to my ears in my room.  This will get me by until there are more ears on the V2.

I’m curious how other Nenuphar owners have their speakers set up? Distance apart, distance from walls, distance to mlp, toed in/not toed in, etc.? Also, are you sitting at ear height of the center of the driver? With the speaker titled back I think I am sitting slightly below the center of driver. When I lean up and my ear gets above middle it can sometimes make a shift in imaging. Anyone else experience this?
 

Do your speakers disappear in the listening space? I live the sound of the Nenuphar minis but i tend to get sound coming direct from the speakers. Not everything but often vocals seem to come from the left speaker. I’ve tried moving the speakers closer, further apart, forward, back, toed in, etc. I’ve also tried multiple amps, preamps, dacs, cables, etc. just to be clear the speakers sound great but I’m still trying to get that magic imaging where the speakers completely disappear. Maybe my room is too small for single drivers. Any tips?

 

@abd1   How are your current speakers setup? If you share their positioning, toe-in and your listening position measurements; as well as your room's dimensions and speaker placement within the room...other owners should be able to give you better (more effective) feedback.

Here's some images/layout of the space. I have some other furniture in the room and a large area rug. I can't reconfigure the space (WAF). I've moved the speakers as wide as possible and as close, forward and back. I get some different results on different tracks but vocals tend to always be left sided. Being this is technically a dining room there is a cut out for hutch, which is where my equipment cabinet is. It's about 8' wide and 1' recessed. I wonder if that is creating some issues in the room, as well as the window area.

 

David, did I read that you toe your speakers in to cross before the mlp?

@abd1  We are out the door headed to the beach. In Florida for a short break. I'll respond once we are back inside this evening. 

Your layout pics are super helpful. Hopefully, others will offer their perspectives and advice.

FYI dimensions are approximate but pretty close. Picture also depicts two subs but I'm only using 1 right now.

abd1, I understand your frustration. This is my opinion but when I had the Acoustic Zen Crescendos that have a wide dispersion ribbon tweeter, the vocals where better focused in the the center most of the time. The Cubes speakers don’t have a ribbon tweeter but have many other significant advantages as a full range single driver loudspeaker. In my set-up I struggled with the same issue to a lesser extent. When I replaced my QNAP NAS drive with an AfterDark Roon Server, replaced my component isolation, lowered the noise floor by adding ac filtration, and added Stilpoint Apertures, the center fill improved greatly. I have my Nenuphars with 5 degrees of toe in, 11” from the front wall, 91” apart and I sit 10’ from the front baffle in a 15’ wide room open to a kitchen area. I’m going to point out the elephant in the room now. You have a difficult room to work with. The side wall(s) first reflections are asymmetrical and your room closely resembles a square. If you could position you system (speakers and electronics) in the bay window area, that would be more ideal but impractical. If you have a basement below the room, then you could locate your electronics down there while leaving your speakers in the bay window area. Before doing all of that, I would try David’s set-up and toe the speakers in so they intersect in front of your listening position.

@abd1 This won't help with bass frequencies, but if you're wondering about the impact of your cutout, one useful technique can be to carry around a bluetooth speaker (obviously the closer to full range the better) and listen to how the sound changes as you move it into that space.  That can give you a sense of what frequencies are being altered by the reflected sound from your main speakers. (Note, this is also useful for testing room treatments like absorbers and diffusers).

I know the room is odd but this is the space I have. I spent a lot of time listening yesterday. I also hooked up my Clearwave audio standmount speakers. They use a 1" accuton ceramic tweeter and are one of the best imaging speakers I've heard. They performed a bit better with filling the image more to the center, but still had some of the same issue, which leads me to believe its the room. I also pulled the nenuphars out more into the room. I haven't measured but looks to be about 24" from the wall to the rear of the speaker. That has helped with image depth and the speakers "uncoupling" from the sound. The image is still towards the left but that also might just be how it is in the room. I'll continue to play with some positioning today.

Hi @abd1 ,

The problem in your room is the glass windows and door on the left, which cause very strong first reflections and ruin the soundstage and image.

You should try draping the windows on the left. It doesn’t have to be heavy curtains. Perhaps even a light tulle will suffice.

Regards,

Alex.

 

I'm thinking about getting some GIK floorstanding panels to place at the reflection points along the wall with windows. Also last night I toed in the speakers heavily so they cross before the MLP. Made a big difference. Sound is very centered now and separated from the speakers, still very deep. Soundstage is smaller, but my speakers are about 8' apart so still pretty good. I'm guessing toeing in totally changed first reflection point.

V2 drivers for my Nenuphars Monitors (coupled with a Sub 12) arrived 10 days ago.  Run them 24/7 for a week, then started listening seriously.  V2 is a more refined version of the original F10neo drivers: it does not lose anything (the mid-range magic is fully there), sound is thicker across the entire spectrum (more presence / more meat around all bones) which increases the sense of naturalness & flow. I did not have to tweak my system in any way (MU1-Tambaqui-Icon4se-Amp23r or SIT3, LessLoss cabling), the V2s are here to stay! 

Vinpic  Thanks for your impressions of the V2 drivers. You didn’t mention soundstage or imaging which I assume meant no change but just wanted to check. 

No change, still amazing ☺️
V2 it’s a welcome evolution (no revolution).  As I write this I am listening to Grant Green’s Idle Moments masterpiece.  With the V1 the Gibson and the saxophone edged on the shiny/dominant side creating a sense of imbalance vis a vis the other instruments.  The V2 adds meat to the bones of the bass / drums / cymbals whilst making the Gibson/sax sound more truthful (at least to my ears).   The overall balance and listening pleasure goes up one to two notches depending on the piece of music.  The most impressive difference I’ve listened to date has been on Willem De Vriend’s Beethoven 7th (DSD file played off the MU1 ssd).  The V1 was a bit too bright and did not reproduce accurately the dark/grave strings base (I did know it was there by listening thru my Susvara’s). Spent months trying to tweak my system to no avail. V2 got everything in the right place without losing an inch of the Nenuphars’ mid-range magic. 

@vinpic do you have both the V1 and V2 for back and forth comparisons?  Granted there's a long lag time, an hour? needed to swap the drivers.  Or is your assessment going by audio memory?

Thanks

@vinpic

it does not lose anything (the mid-range magic is fully there), sound is thicker across the entire spectrum (more presence / more meat around all bones) which increases the sense of naturalness & flow. I did not have to tweak my system in any way (MU1-Tambaqui-Icon4se-Amp23r or SIT3, LessLoss cabling), the V2s are here to stay!

I have to say that listening assessment is quite informative. Actually more encouraging than what I inferred from Srajan Ebaen. Of course two different audio systems heard by different pair of ears. But is this not always the case when subjectivity trying to communicate to another sonic/music listening impressions?

To know that it retains the "Midrange magic" with added meat on the bone is an accomplishment. Of course depending on one’s current audio system voicing the additional meat on the bone may not be required. So as always the final judgment is individually determined by targeted sonic needs and goal.

Charles

 

V1 and V2 back and forth. It takes 2 people only a few minutes to change the drivers.  And yes, it’s my personal judgment 😎

Btw, when prompted, Srajan preferred the V2 (scroll down few letters till you find the one on Nenuphars V2)

https://6moons.com/lettersandfeedback/

 

@vinpic

Btw, when prompted, Srajan preferred the V2 (scroll down few letters till you find the one on Nenuphars V2)

https://6moons.com/lettersandfeedback

Yes he did and I’m not disputing that at all. If my reading of his review was accurate, he seemed to imply changing to the v2 drivers might very well necessitate changing current components in one’s audio system to match properly the v2 signature/character.

Your comments suggest that this may not be required in all v2 driver swaps. It is rather system dependant. Some v1 owners ’may not experience the brightness that you occasionally heard. Those with different source, preamplifier, amplifiers may feel that they have sufficient "meat on the bone " fullness already. That is my only point.

Charles

Good work vinpic 👍. 

Thanks Toetapaudio.  Charles, fair enough.  That’s why I shared what my others components are so you can get an idea of my starting point & preferences.  Between us I was perfectly happy with V1… with V2 I am just happier 😁

To put things in perspective, if you have a pair of Nenuphars the single biggest upgrade you can do is to add their active Sub 12’’ (or two if your room is larger than 50sqm). Srajan has spent a ton of pixels on the many advantages of such a combo, I can witness that the impact on SQ is an order of magnitude higher than the difference between V2 and V1

Are there visuals on the process for swapping the drivers? Guessing you just remove some bolts for the existing driver, carefully remove it from the cabinet, unplug the wires (assuming its a plug and not soldered), then reverse the process for installing the new driver? Guessing the drivers are fairly heavy with all of those magnets.

@abd1   My apologies for the late response. My wife got called back to work early which changed our vacation and plans.

A few thoughts...

1. it's not the speakers, which is important to state.

2. If you haven't already done so, I recommend getting a friend to help you with moving the speakers around so you can evaluate from the listening position as the changes are made. An audiophile friend will allow for two sets of ears on the changes / improvements heard from speaker movement.

3. For clarification, the toe-in with the cross over intersecting in front of me was for illustration purposes to make another point. My standard setup has the speakers intersecting behind my head.

4. Though our individual speaker and listening positions may be helpful, given YOUR room, I would only use them as a rough guide.

5. You may have already done so, but if it were me...given your room...I'd start with extreme near field positions for the speakers and you to eliminate first reflections. THEN, I'd move the speakers wider and your listening position further back by small increments UNTIL the point that the first reflections come into play (rear their head). THEN pull that position back in (slightly). IF you can live with that arrangement, you should be set. 

6. IF NOT, look into room treatment as others have mentioned. See if you can get a dealer loan for Stillpoint Aperture II panels with stands. They are pricey, but effective. They allow for easy movement (to test effectiveness) and temporary placement...which may be an advantage in your particular room and for your aesthetic needs. At a minimum they will inform you of the degree your room is involved and give you a starting point to address.

As is usual, I'm multi-tasking at this time of day....I'll follow up with more should I think of additional points.

Want to recognize @mikeg  @cal3713  and @alexberger  for helping out @abd1  with his room and speaker placement situation. I found their posts helpful and I learned from them as well. Thanks!

@vinpic  Thanks so much for sharing your impressions and comparative findings, as an owner, of the V2 and V1 versions of the Nenuphar drivers. It's wonderful getting owner feedback and I hope more owners making the swap post their findings, like you did.

Can't beat... : )

with V2 I am just happier

I'm assuming you have the 10 inch drivers. Is that correct?

 

 

Agreed, thanks for the help. I moved the speakers further back and apart and its sounding very good. Still toed in, almost crossing at MLP. Have to go out of town for work Monday so I'll continue to make adjustments when I get back. Still also looking in to some panels to help with reflection points.

Yes 10 inch drivers.  
To change drivers: remove 4 bolts for the existing driver, remove it from the cabinet, unplug the wires (its a plug), then reverse the process for installing the new driver. Drivers are heavy, you need someone to help. I’d say less than 10’ to upgrade both speakers.  

@vinpic  Thanks!

Can you share more about the process for ordering and returning the V1 drivers? For example, do the V1 drivers go back to the dealer or do they go back to Cube Audio? How much time does the owner have to return, should they want to A/B a few times? What is the cost if one wants to hold on to the V1 drivers? Etc.

@toetapaudio   Robert, perhaps you can share more on this as well?

 

David, my suggestion is go through the USA distributor and he will be able to give you prices for the conversation and cost of drivers etc.

Can you share more about the process for ordering and returning the V1 drivers? For example, do the V1 drivers go back to the dealer or do they go back to Cube Audio? How much time does the owner have to return, should they want to A/B a few times? What is the cost if one wants to hold on to the V1 drivers? Etc.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

YOu see its things like this that leave me in doubts about **Cube Audio**. Something just aint smelling right about this company. Here they are blabbing their **all new cone is , so much better..**, yet give no details on how to go about taking old drivers out, shipping drivers to who knows where,,, who will pay ship cost both ways.. which carrier to use. Pre paid label?? How long turn around time, give or take 1-2 days..etc etc. Cube is leaving their fans in *The Lurch**, ,,canoe up s**t creek, w/o a paddle. IMHO I wouldn/t go for it. Its too risky, you might like the *old* style cone better.

YOu see its things like this that leave me in doubts about **Cube Audio**. Something just aint smelling right about this company. Here they are blabbing their **all new cone is , so much better..**, yet give no details on how to go about taking old drivers out, shipping drivers to who knows where,,, who will pay ship cost both ways.. which carrier to use. Pre paid label?? How long turn around time, give or take 1-2 days..etc etc. Cube is leaving their fans in *The Lurch**, ,,canoe up s**t creek, w/o a paddle. IMHO I wouldn/t go for it. Its too risky,

What is risky? You can either use the distributor, dealer and probably deal with Cube Audio directly. I am pretty certain once initial contact is made all of the details are explained. I see absolutely nothing here to be suspicious of.

Charles

We, as in members and posters, have been dealing with Cube Audio and Refined Audio (the U.S. Importer and Distributor) from within the U.S.  Others who have posted from Europe are using their own dealers, etc.

My questions were for the benefit of others reading this thread.

Jon Ver Halen and Grzegorz Rulka have been a phone call or email away for me; as they are for anyone else interested.

Suffice it to say that we are also clear on the value of the doubts from someone with zero exposure to the company, it's products, and it's distribution chain. 

 

I like to know the process too and have been contemplating upgrading, I would love to get a chance to listen and compare v1 and v2 before sending the v1 in, or decide to keep the v1 if v2 sound didn't work out.  I do enjoy the v1 now, although I do like the impressions of the v2 thus far.

I like to add that Jon at Refined Audio and Grzegorz have been very supporting when I reported to them one of my driver have a small dent in the phase plug that I didn't noticed until 6 months into ownership.  Grzegorz were quick to respond and worked with Jon to send a new pair of drivers out, at no cost to me.  I have no doubt that they will take care of their customers.

+1 @khragon 

I haven’t seen any reason to be suspicious of Cube Audio. I had a good experience with them and the distributor when I needed to swap out a driver shortly after receiving the Nenuphars.

 

just a couple words about that: changing the drivers is easy in principle but it can be tricky to execute. The magnets are very heavy. I found it best if you lay the speaker on its side before beginning surgery. Obviously you want to do that on a soft rug. Once you remove the bolts (ONLY the four outer hex bolts, the inner ones hold the spider together), the driver can slip from its position suddenly. If you’re close to the floor you have more leverage on the driver and a shorter way for it to fall if something bad happens.

 

Also, the magnets are so powerful that they can easily pull a hex wrench from your fingers when you loosen your grip even just a bit. The wrench will fly directly on to the edges of your whizzer cones with quite a bit of force. The simple answer is a non-magnetic hex wrench (believe its 4mm). I found one for 12 bucks on line and thought it was a small price to pay for the peace of mind.

@jollytinker 

Also, the magnets are so powerful that they can easily pull a hex wrench from your fingers when you loosen your grip even just a bit. The wrench will fly directly on to the edges of your whizzer cones with quite a bit of force. The simple answer is a non-magnetic hex wrench (believe its 4mm). I found one for 12 bucks on line and thought it was a small price to pay for the peace of mind.

This is wise and  worthy advice for sure.  That is some magnet!!!

Charles