I believe the point has been made, specific to the brand, as well as generally to many brands. Can we move on? Thanks.
Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure
Cube Audio (Poland) designs single drivers and single driver speakers.
Principals are Grzegorz Rulka and Marek Kostrzyński.
Link to the Cube Audio Nenuphar (with F10 Neo driver) speaker page:
https://www.cubeaudio.eu/cube-audio-nenuphar
Link to 6Moons review by Srajan Ebaen (August 2018):
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cubeaudio2/
* Frequency response may vary and depends on room size and accompanying electronic equipment.
Principals are Grzegorz Rulka and Marek Kostrzyński.
Link to the Cube Audio Nenuphar (with F10 Neo driver) speaker page:
https://www.cubeaudio.eu/cube-audio-nenuphar
Link to 6Moons review by Srajan Ebaen (August 2018):
https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/cubeaudio2/
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Parameters (from Cube Audio):
Power: 40 W
Efficiency: 92 dB
Frequency response: 30Hz - 18kHz ( 6db)*
Dimensions: 30 x 50 x 105 cm
Weight: 40 Kg
* Frequency response may vary and depends on room size and accompanying electronic equipment.
1,576 responses Add your response
The margins for a dealer vary quite considerably depending on the brand. The margin for Bakoon is so slim that I wouldn’t consider discounting even if I was allowed. There are many products that have over inflated prices, Bakoon isn’t one of them. At £6k for an integrated amp it punches way above its price point in both sound quality and modern design. |
AG3, Not to derail the thread BUT this must be said. If your paying 80% of MSRP for used gear REGARDLESS of what the brand is your being taken for a ride. I always get at least 20-30% off of MSRP for NEW Gear....used gear you should never pay more than 60% of MSRP or thereabouts. If you are you need to make better connections. I recently ordered a pair of the MINI NENUPHAR (8 inch) and not only did I get 20% off BUT they are painting it in a Custom Color for me with no upcharge. I dont see any Bakoon models here on Audiogon BLUE book or all the completed sales on HIFISHARK.com showing people paying 80% of MSRP for Used Bakoon gear. If you can show me actual SALES (Not asking price) of this happening somewhere please send me a PM with details. I'd love to see it. I need to sell my gear to THOSE people!! |
@ag3_, Miraculously this thread has avoided agitating trolls, keyboard warriors and rude and disrespectful behavior, what a welcome relief. The LTA Ultra Linear compared to the Bakoon 13R is very interesting as there’re such distinct differences between them. It’d be fun and informative to hear them driving your Tannoys or the Nenuphars. As this thread has substantiated, there are numerous good quality amplifiers to consider pairing with the Nenuphars. Charles |
Absolutely. Will do. This is the best thread on agon. Might as well contribute here ! For reference I've got the LTA Ultra Linear right now powering some Tannoy Eaton speakers (dual concentric). From the sounds of it in this thread I think it's safe to say the UL is similar to the FW SIT variety (in the ball park). A tube change to some GE model tubes has made this amp exceptional |
As someone who is casually looking for a Bakoon 13r - the resale market is no way a 50% drop. I've seen on average about 1k off from 6k MSRP which is a pretty standard discount in terms of a listing price. In terms of dealers can't speak to that. If I purchase a unit new it will likely be through Bakoon themselves. |
Stephen, I used the Takatsuki 300b in my amplifier for 3 or 4 years and it is superb! I never bothered with the W,E. Vintage 300b as they were astronomical in price (Takatsuki and Elrog were as far as I was willing to spend ,1800.00 pair range at that time). I did try a pair of W.E. re-issue circa 1990s vintage but was disappointed with them. I’ve heard various Magico speakers in their Q and S series (Most experience with the S5). Just my own 2 cents worth, I’d be surprised if the Magico A3 were more ’neutral ’ or more importantly ’natural ’ than the Nenuphar. This is based on nothing more than a personal hunch just to be clear. I’d relish the opportunity to heard them in a direct comparison. They are by design so remarkably different objectively and really philosophically. Oh would that be a highly interesting listening session. Charles |
Hi Charles, That is a good question and one that begs the premise of my post: that the L2i-se has uncanny neutrality since but has a DHT tube pre and what tube is truly neutral? But to answer your question, I first what to point out that there is scripture on this subject written by Srajan in his review of the VR Signature L2 se pre amp where he thoroughly compares various tubes in DHT mode. From reading this, the tube I would want to try is a vintage WE 300b--which I think was Srajan's overall preference followed closely by the WE VT52, the Elrog 300b and the EH 50. Since a pair of WE 300b's go for about the price of the component, I would like to try the WE VT52 and the EH 50 which Srajan said had an "hallucinate" sound stage. I want to know what that means. I like big sound stages. Vinnie's favorite tube is the Takatsuki 300b. |
Hi Stephen, Your VR integrated has outperformed formidable competition in your system in direct comparison. There's no better way to determine what's best other than actual listening experiences. You've found outstanding synergy in your amplifier and Nenuphar pairing. I think that's fantastic! Through personal experience I know how superb the Elrog 300b sounds. The VR offers easy switching of various DHT tubes. Are you tempted to experiment with other tubes or is the Elrrog so good that you'll leave well enough alone? Charles |
My 2 Cents on Bakoon has nothing to do with performance. Their is no dealer network to speak of so you have to pay Full MSRP or VERY close to it. Re-sale value (supply/demand) is horrible based on past "attempted" sales. The guy in AZ who I think is the importer is a total RICHARD in my book. So if you look at your audio gear as an "investment" and you dont want to get killed when you eventually flip it the Bakoon is dead in the water. PASS Labs you can buy new with a 20-30% discount if you know what your doing and you MIGHT lose 10-15% when you ditch it which is acceptable. 50% Loss or more is not. |
I agree--have read only superlative things about the Bakoon13R no matter what it drives. But I have heard the following amps driving my Nenuphars (listed in order of preference): 1. FW SIT-1 2. FW SIT-3 3. Tektron One 2A3 All with both the Shindo Giscours and Pass Labs X-32 pre amps. And what bested all of these by a long chalk? The Vinnie Rossi L2i-se Integrated with the Elrog 300b as DHT in pre amp stage. I know I've said it before, but since I don't see anyone considering this amp as a Nenuphar driver, I had to put my two cents back in. Yes, it is $18K but you get both pre and amp end-gamers (for me anyway). The synergy got even better with a Shunyata Sigma V2 power cord with the L2i-se and then my most recent addition of Shunyata Alpha V2 speaker cables. VR now offers 30 day auditions from what I understand. Upcoming: audition of a Shunyata Alpha V2 XLR interconnect from my TotalDac to the L2i-se. What sets the VR apart from say the FW SIT-1, which I thought was out of this world and was happy to settle down with permanently? The VR is more life like, with a big open natural presence that is highly detailed and rich without calling attention to those attributes. It is a sum-bigger-than-its-parts type component, which I also found true of Shindo amps.(Cortese and GM70). But it does not have Shindo's undeniable coloration, a subtle sunniness that pervades like a filter. Nor does the VR have the slightly dark tonal richness of the SIT-1. It has a natural richness that is even more engaging and a natural timbre that I keep trying to find fault with but can't. People have told me that I'm trying to describe something that takes the best of tubes and merges it with the best of SS. But no, the combination is better than either and a thing apart. From biting trumpets to compelling cellos it simply disappears as an electronic component adding no coloration or flavor that I can hear (of course the Nenuphars have a lot to do with this neutrality). I have often been impressed initially by a component only after extended listening to say, "Ok, it's doing that to the mid-range or this to the bass or this other to highs." I might like it and live with it for quite awhile. But it ultimately grows tiresome, adding a sameness to the music. Ok, that was more than two cents. |
Cal, Absolutely right about the non Commercial DIY offerings. A few years ago Nelson Pass designed a push pull version of the of the stereo S.I.T. 2 at 35 watts pure class A circuit. A generous Audiogon member loaned me his for a period of 3 weeks. This was a really good sounding amplifier and actually one of the best transistor amplifiers I’ve heard. Just terrific with my Coincident speakers. Directly compared to my Frankenstein MK II 300b SET there were very similar characteristics. Switched the amplifiers twice over the 3 week period for direct listening comparisons. I could have lived contently (very) with the D.I.Y. S.I.T. 2 amplifier. But when the SET is put back in the audio system there’s just more 3 dimensional tactile- reach out and touch aura. A bit richer tonality and fuller more fleshed out vibe is present. Ultimately more emotionally engaging . The basic stuff I find that SET simply does better. I know however that some listeners would prefer the other excellent amplifier. @toetapaudio I’ve never heard the Bakoon amplifier but reviews and word of mouth say they’re quite splendid. I don’t doubt they could go toe to toe with the First Watt (F.W.) No question the F.W. built by the esteemed Nelson Pass are far more known within the High End audio community and thus mentioned more often. Charles |
@charles1dad What's crazy is that Nelson not only makes the commercial First Watt amps, but also releases (for free) additional FW-like designs for the diy community. I was just reading about a single-ended 8W SIT amp that he's going to release kits for soon: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/357517-simple-se-sit-amp.html I like this quote from him regarding the design: "I tried to make it more complicated and obscure, but it's just not in me." Just more evidence in favor of the combination of sensitive speakers and low wattage amplifiers in my book. |
Thanks guys! I already had a casual listen to the A3 driven by Hegel 390 streaming Tidal off internal dac. Playing Norah Jones Come Away with Me album. What stood out was how wonderfully coherent the sound was. Slightly warmish with lots of air. Great focus. Norah's head was in between the speakers. The American distributor says there is a owner near me so when his Reno's on his home are done he will try to arrange a demo for me of the Cube Audio. Magico at first listen lacks tonal richness on say a piano. But have to listen more. |
Cal, Yes, Nelson Pass has thoroughly demonstrated his acumen of designing and building excellent amplifiers across a very wide power spectrum. He's enjoyed remarkable success with his Pass Labs amplifiers. Yet I find his explorations via the First Watt line of amplifiers so intriguing. He obviously has a deep passion for these special amplifiers given the multiple models/versions He has developed (And continues to do so) over the years. Every one of them is uniquely different from their siblings. Charles |
I find my 94db/1w/1m, 8ohm speakers somewhat limiting in terms of amplification. Plenty of people do, but I don't think I'll ever move beyond the 25W/channel I currently use. Watts may be cheap, but if I'm dumping funds into amplification, I'd still rather dump them into fewer watts than more of them. The amps also tend to get so complicated the more power they're managing... just look at Nelson Pass' First Watt line to see how alluring the low power designs can be. He has the capacity to build some of the best reviewed high wattage amps available and still spends a huge amount of time (perhaps the majority?) playing with low power designs. |
If you’re ever able to hear both the Magico A3 and Nenuphar (Each respectively driven by an appropriately matched amplifier) I would be quite interested in your listening impressions. Those two speakers are so different and at near opposite ends of the spectrum in regard to their design. I imagine that they sound very different from one another. I am also eager to hear about this comparison. Apart from different design, their amplification requirement is also very different. |
@kw6, If you’re ever able to hear both the Magico A3 and Nenuphar (Each respectively driven by an appropriately matched amplifier) I would be quite interested in your listening impressions. Those two speakers are so different and at near opposite ends of the spectrum in regard to their design. I imagine that they sound very different from one another. Charles |
@kw6 Yes, regarding: Does it have treble information that reveals the air and hall of the recording? No, regarding: Have you found any speaker colorations having lived with them for awhile? However, I am nowhere close to being an expert on the fundamental elements of music. ...ymmv As a note, I consider the entire system and room to be responsible for music reproduction. Isolating the Nenuphars from ’this’ is, in my opinion, problematic. Especially so for the amplifier - speaker - speaker cable unit, which I regard to be a ’singular organism.’ |
@abd1, Frankly I am impressed with the sound quality you have achieved given the obvious compromised speaker positioning that circumstances have dictated. Commendable the Nenuphars are performing this well. If you could some how managed to improve the speaker placement I believe that you would increase the Nenuphar's performance substantially. Charles |
@david_ten I'm always open to suggestions but since this area is part of our main living room I have to balance the WAF in regards to placement. I'm also having a new cabinet built that will be about 3-4" wider than the current one. The listening spot is about 9-10' from the speakers. The sofa backs up to a 1/2wall that's part of a stairwell that goes downstairs. So there's not a full rear wall until about 6-8' behind the listening area. I'll take a better picture of the entire space this weekend. |
@abd1 Thanks for posting the photos of the Walnut Nenuphar Minis and your room setup. The finish you chose looks terrific. I love walnut furniture and the grain and details of your speakers are gorgeous and matched!!! It’s good (for me) to know Cube Audio has ’delivered’ on a wood veneer should I choose to go that route in the future with one of their other speaker offerings. On another note, I accept the results you are sharing based on the setup and the restrictions due to your current room, however, my experience is conflicted over the positioning of the speakers and your room. For me, those first reflections are critical and are best balanced (three dimensionally). The left speaker being so close to the wall and in the corner and up against a window versus the right speaker being completely open to open space to the right of it would, in my experience, lead to a significant imbalance. It’s not clear from the photos where / how far your seating position is? Do you prefer listening near field or do you prefer listening with greater room involvement / contribution? If you are open to a suggestion and are interested in trying it out, let me know? For reference, your system photos>>> https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9181 |
I would describe the canary as “creamy” but with excellent detail. There’s a certain lit from within sound I’ve heard others describe but didn’t understand until I heard this amp. Voices are the best I’ve heard. Might be a touch polite but speakers are also new and need breaking in. The other speakers I used were 85db stand mounts while I was waiting for the Cubes so not a perfect match to judge but the Canary still sounded great with those. My room sucks with one speaker in a corner and the other open but the sound is centered. The cubes like being pushed back more then other speakers I’ve had and no toe in. I get better results pushing the speaker close to the side wall. Maybe better getting an early reflection point. Who knows, but the stage shrinks if I move it off the wall. When my wife and I both listen for extended time I move the open side speaker about 20” further out and the stage is lifelike in scale. We’re house hunting and I’m really hoping to get a better listening space whenever we find something. |
@abd1, they look beautiful in walnut (?) finish. I get a pop every time I turn off/on the SIT-3. Though I haven’t discussed with Jon (Cube distributor) on this but I assumed its normal. Your issue seems a bit different. Did you try any other preamp ? Since you have the DS which has a VC, maybe try connecting directly to the amp and see if you face the same issue ? How do you like the Canary M90 with the Cubes ? |
I uploaded photos in the virtual system. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9181 One issue I’m having is that when I turn the volume down I get a pop of distortion. I’m using a sachs preamp. I haven’t had this issue with any other speaker. It doesn’t happen every time but probably heard it 4-5 times. Mostly in the right channel but once in the left. Any thoughts? |
Received my Nenuphar Mini’s Friday night. Got them uncrated and hooked up but it was late once I did so I played a couple songs and waited until Saturday morning. Listened to some music Saturday morning at low volumes and left them playing all day at lower volumes to start breaking in. Last night my wife and I turned the up and listened for an couple hours. I’m reserving judgment as they only have about 15 hours on them but so far there’s no weakness. I’ve tried single driver speakers before and I never felt they got enough extension on the vocals and could sound a bit restricted or muffled. Not these. My previous speakers had Accuton ceramic drivers and before that I used Salks with the RAAL ribbon. These are more detailed but still natural and smooth. I thought the Accutons would be more detailed but nope. The sound also has more scale and is more realistic. I’m still playing with location as my room isn’t great but they do seem to like being closer to the back wall. Bass improves and when I had them pulled out a bit the imaging beamed a little. So far also seems better with no toe in. I’ll continue to break them in and follow up. Wish I could post photos here. I got them in walnut and the finish is fantastic. |
One other thing I left out: I started with the Tidal Audio Impact amplifier on the Nenuphars. That amp has a damping factor of 200, two separate transformers (left and right channels), 8 transistors per channel, 145 watts/ch class AB but it runs hot so I think the first 25 watts are class A, listed for $32K, built to deliver high current, and weighed 120 lbs. I didn’t hold a candle to the FW SIT-1. It would sound dry more times than not and at higher volumes there was a loss in clarity. I was afraid I would blow the Nenuphars if I was careful with the Ayon S-5 preamp remote. I was glad to sell that one to someone that had Dynaaudio loudspeakers which it matched well to. |
“New models within the Ianus Series include the Geminae (€110,000) Class A amplifier that produces 130 Watts @ 8 Ohm. Aries Cerat’s Essentia (€39,000) is the little brother that produces 40 Watts @ 8 Ohms”. That makes the FW SIT-1 a bargain. Given the FW SIT-1 has 2 watts/ch at 1% distortion, yet it sounds more like 50 watts/ch. I have 9ft ceilings and my dedicated listening room that has no back wall to speak of is open to a decent size kitchen/eating area (shaped like an “L” close to 600 sqft) and I’m never wanting for high volume. I also want to report that the FW has opened up nicely and has a beautiful mid bass response. I also found that like the Ayon Audio Odin, the FW SIT-1 benefits greatly by adding SR ECTs near the on/off switch, binding posts, the male IEC connector and on top of the transformer. I had these on my Ayon Audio S-5 also and they eliminate high frequency grunge that provides a multitude of benefits in the recreation of music. |
Maybe he will given the success of the sit amps. I've heard they're starting to get low on their supply and the sit3 was only possible because the parts have been so reliable. Previously, those transistors had been held in reserve for replacement service. Funny that Nelson said this in 2012 (from the above thread on diyaudio): "I predict that long before I run out of SITs there will be some new, perhaps more interesting devices to play with." |
@rwpollock Perhaps you’re just suggesting that pass finds a new manufacturer for the SIT devices? The first run was custom made by Semisouth for Pass Labs (hence the Pass label on the transistors), but they have since closed the factory. Some interesting discussion here with input from Nelson: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/222098-semisouth-goes-dodo.html |
Too bad Pass Labs can't develop another source for static induction transistor devices.I suspect they could have their own made, but it wouldn't be cheap. It sounds like that is what Aries Cerat did. This summer EnjoyTheMusic had a short new item on Aries Cerat and their new Ianus series of electronics. www.enjoythemusic.com/news/0720/ Aries Cerat Ianus Series amplifiers is a showcase of the company's unique TriodeFet technology. After years of developing and refining their technologies, they are proud to introduce the TriodeFet technology, and a Series of amplifiers that implements this truly innovative technology. This technology is neither a hybrid topology (in the usual sense of a tube-driving solid-state stage type), nor a solid-state driving tube kind of stage. TriodeFet is a new way of using hollow and solid-state devices. The concept is to have a low voltage / high current active device, which had the linearity of a triode, and at same time would be able to source enough current to drive low impedance loads directly. The TriodeFet, can be seen as a three terminal active element, just like a MOSFET or a triode. The company's breakthrough is that its transfer curves are identical of a true high quality triode, with the only differentiator from a true triode is that, the Y-axis (current) is in scaled in Amperes and not mA. What this means, is that you can design circuits that were never before possible either by using tubes or transistors. This new active element can be used to develop simple, very linear circuits, which are stable down to very low impedances, while the TriodeFet's inherent linearity is making the use of the problematic negative feedback redundant. New models within the Ianus Series include the Geminae (€110,000) Class A amplifier that produces 130 Watts @ 8 Ohm. Aries Cerat's Essentia (€39,000) is the little brother that produces 40 Watts @ 8 Ohms. |