Did you buy it from Asia?
Counterfeit DL103?
I decided to finally see what all the DL103 fuss was about and try one in my office system. Bought one on USAM that was admittedly priced surprisingly low but I snagged it very soon after it went up and the photos showed a cart that looked exactly like every DL103 I've ever seen including the identifying sticker with serial number. So I figured the gods had smiled on me and left it at that.
When I finally got around to mounting it, I ran it through my Allnic AUT2000 step up tranny which I brought into the office from my home system while I'm waiting on some replacement tubes. Into the Allnic and then the MM stage of my Marantz integrated it sounded very lively but with a surprising amount of gain, so much so that it was annoying, got loud very soon after zero on the volume pot and WAY too loud pretty soon after that. Using the remote to adjust volume was a non-starter, had to do it by hand in the tiniest increments.
But, like I said, it sounded good, sparkly, a lot of detail. I also know the DL103 has a strange output impedance so I figured it wasn't mating well with the Allnic and didn't think about it.
A while ago I made a trade with a guy for some records and also got a Denon SUT from the 70s, a 310 that I believe was actually made for the 103 (when I took it from the guy I did so thinking eventually I'd get around to trying a 103). So I dug this out (bit of a project, couldn't remember where I put it) and brought it into the office. Now the 310 has a passthrough button so you can disengage the transformers if you choose. When I hooked it up I discovered that with the transformers engaged I still had way too much gain, and with them disengaged, well, the cart sounded good and loud.
So I put on a Shure m97xe, another cart I run here at the office. A-B'ing it against this cart purporting to be a DL-103 with the trannies disengaged I found that at the same volume setting on the Marantz the "DL103" played a little louder than the Shure.
And, as I'm sure most of you know at least vaguely... that ain't right. The m97xe has an output voltage of 4mv. A true DL103 has an output voltage of in the country of .3mv.
So... it's gotta be a fake right? There's nothing I'm missing here? It's not a bad sounding cart at all whatever it is, but it can't be a DL-103.
When I finally got around to mounting it, I ran it through my Allnic AUT2000 step up tranny which I brought into the office from my home system while I'm waiting on some replacement tubes. Into the Allnic and then the MM stage of my Marantz integrated it sounded very lively but with a surprising amount of gain, so much so that it was annoying, got loud very soon after zero on the volume pot and WAY too loud pretty soon after that. Using the remote to adjust volume was a non-starter, had to do it by hand in the tiniest increments.
But, like I said, it sounded good, sparkly, a lot of detail. I also know the DL103 has a strange output impedance so I figured it wasn't mating well with the Allnic and didn't think about it.
A while ago I made a trade with a guy for some records and also got a Denon SUT from the 70s, a 310 that I believe was actually made for the 103 (when I took it from the guy I did so thinking eventually I'd get around to trying a 103). So I dug this out (bit of a project, couldn't remember where I put it) and brought it into the office. Now the 310 has a passthrough button so you can disengage the transformers if you choose. When I hooked it up I discovered that with the transformers engaged I still had way too much gain, and with them disengaged, well, the cart sounded good and loud.
So I put on a Shure m97xe, another cart I run here at the office. A-B'ing it against this cart purporting to be a DL-103 with the trannies disengaged I found that at the same volume setting on the Marantz the "DL103" played a little louder than the Shure.
And, as I'm sure most of you know at least vaguely... that ain't right. The m97xe has an output voltage of 4mv. A true DL103 has an output voltage of in the country of .3mv.
So... it's gotta be a fake right? There's nothing I'm missing here? It's not a bad sounding cart at all whatever it is, but it can't be a DL-103.
30 responses Add your response
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It's definitely not a 110 or 160. Looks exactly like a DL-103 - only difference I see from numerous pictures on web is that the stem that holds the cantilever is red and not white. It's clearly a counterfeit - seller just got back to me and said he "should have checked it" before he sent it. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt if he's bought it from someone and didn't know any better, but the "jeez I should have checked it" defense is always shady. |
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Just to be clear I'm not trying to impugn anyone based on ethnicity. The guy who sold the cartridge to me lives in New Jersey and clearly sold me a fake. Whether he knew this or not I could never prove though I certainly suspect that he did because he sold it well under market value and expressed zero surprise when I wrote him about it. But I only say that "I should have known" based on that very fact - generally when such a deal has come my way in audio it's proven to be some kind of ripoff. I personally don't want to be associated with an "asians are scumbags" line of argument with this. |
I think it is less likely a fake/counterfeit and more likely just borked in some way that causes severe aberrations in the output level (variable by frequency). As mentioned before, there is just no money in faking a 103 that actually looks convincingly like a 103 on the outside. Maybe possibly rebuilt or modified after the fact. But probably a real 103 at its start. |
invictus005500 posts10-18-2018 3:53pmNever buy from an Asian or an Asian source, unless it’s Japan related. These people need to be taught a lesson. @invictus I thought you were a jerk before. Now I am completely convinced. This kind of statement has no place here. "These people"? Really? schubert4,401 posts10-19-2018 1:54pmThere are as more crooks in USA than Asia per-capita and more racists period .@schubert Yep. Found a racist right here @Invictus. I reported his post and I encourage others to do the same. |
I'm with Viridian. It doesn't make sense to counterfit a DL103. If you're going to all the effort required to make a counterfit cartridge that actually does work (and sounds at least decent too), then why not just give it a name and charge the very same low price for it? I suspect there is some trivial explanation for its apparently too high output voltage. Davelarz, What do you think the seller meant by his comment that he "should have checked it". Do you take that as an admission that the cartridge is not what it purports to be? Did he say any more about what it actually is? Thx. |
I feel like you’re suffering a little from the audiophile’s distorted sense of value - coming from our bizarre realm where a $1000 (or 2000... or 3000) can be considered entry level. $200/$300 is quite a lot of money to most people. To fake something for a fraction of that price and then pawn it off as legit and make $100 or more in profit is a very good hustle. I did take the “I should have checked it” as an admission of guilt. That combined with the fact that it was very underpriced in the first place. Think about it - if you sold someone a cartridge that you fully believed to be legit and they came back and said this is a fake, wouldn’t your first response be... are you sure? There must be some mistake, etc. I would at the very least express intense surprise and be upset about it. A bland “I should have checked it I will refund” to me has the ring of “I am taking the position that I never paid close attention to this thing that I sold you” which to me is offering a too convenient alibi. But look... I don’t know. I showed it to a few people with a lot of experience and they instantly pointed out a red tube holding the cantilever that is generally white on every legit dl103. That alone made them think something was wrong with it. Maybe it had been retrofitted somehow to HO... but talk about an unlikely operation. Who would go to that effort? For what? |
Does it came with a QC data sheet? http://www.audiophileaddicts.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Denon103-FrequencyResponseAndOutputPlot-... |
@davelarz open paypal claim (if you paid with paypal) and you will get your money back including shipping both ways if you will have to return it. No loss for you with paypal buyers protection. It make sense to pay with paypal (always) and no one can cheat you, never. It make no sense for cheaters to accept paypal payment for counterfit goods, they will be guilty all the time if the buyer is not happy for whatever reason. You don't even have to talk to them, simply open paypal claim. Paypal is always on the buyers side. If your order has been paid with some other payment method then it's not that easy. P.S. Buy yourself a good cartridge, maybe some decent MM, not DL-103 and forget about it. |
Didn’t come with a data sheet or any original materials. I got my money back - he offered a refund right away. I buy and sell a lot of records and in the last few years I’ve become aware of a general scam on the internet - eBay certainly - whereby a seller advertises a record as being VG+ and then I buy the record and it is nowhere near that grade. When I respond they instantly refund the money and don’t even ask to have the disc returned. I believe their thinking is - I have a pile of records that are worthless due to their condition. If I sell them as vg+ and get away with it I’ve made a profit and if I get called on it all I’m out is shipping, which via media mail is very cheap. You have 10 such records and you get away with it for 5 of them, you’ve turned a profit. I suspect this is what my dl103 seller was up to - selling something that is worthless on the market under false pretenses and hoping I didn’t know enough to call him on it, figuring if I did he’d just refund and only be out the minimal shipping cost of a cartridge. i have many other cartridges btw - very sound on that front. 😋 |
Chakster, We’ve had this discussion (about the "protection" afforded by Paypal) before. I am glad you found them to be helpful. The one time I needed to resort to Paypal for help with a dishonest seller, they were worthless. In fact, the Paypal representative advised me to seek help from VISA, via my credit card. Fortunately, VISA did help. Lucky for me that I had not paid via my own checking account through Paypal. I would have been out of luck. Dave, I would bet that you got a high output MC Denon (forgot the numerical designation) with an outer shell that gives the appearance of a DL103. You would probably not readily discern the difference in its output from that of your MM standard, even though it’s lower in terms of voltage by half. That’s only 3db. Anyway, all’s well that ends well. |
It’s been suggested that it’s a homc Denon but... look, but for a red tube attaching to the cantilever instead of a white one this was an exact lookalike of a dl103 including serial number. Given that homc denons don’t retail for that much more than dl103s it’s hard to imagine someone going to the trouble to Frankenstein such a cart. I realize no one wants to believe it but I remain convinced it was a straight up fake manufactured for exactly the purpose of ripping off people who don’t know any better. |
@lewm Chakster, We’ve had this discussion (about the "protection" afforded by Paypal) before. I am glad you found them to be helpful. The one time I needed to resort to Paypal for help with a dishonest seller, they were worthless. In fact, the Paypal representative advised me to seek help from VISA, via my credit card. Fortunately, VISA did help. Lucky for me that I had not paid via my own checking account through Paypal. I would have been out of luck. There is a claim/refund/return option for every payment made with paypal now. You case may be too old to talk about it, but i'm talking about how it works right now for everyone who pay for "goods", not "family and friends option" with paypal. This "buyers protection" make no chance for cheaters who use paypal as payment option. Their PP account will be blocked by paypal even if there is a money on the balance. |