17 months later (last post 12-30-07) I'm discovering this little gem....I've never had such a good read - laughed til I cried. Some of the funniest stuff I've ever heard. You ALL reminded me of why I'm in this hobby having gone down the vinyl rabbit hole 4 years ago and enjoying ALL of it: vinyl, stereo lp's, digital lp's and analog lp's, redbood cd's and dvd-audio, and sacd and xrcd and dualdiscs, and, and....it's ALL fun!!! |
Nedmast: You hit the nail on the head "...I see no reason(michaeljbrown)to get into the analog domain,since you don't even have a record collection to listen to." Well said. |
Vinyl can sound very good in spite of it's various 'minor' problems (eg. noisy surfaces, inner groove distortion) but what bothers me most is it's pitch instability (non-concentric records). Having heard the rock solid pitch stability of digital, I found it frustrating to listen to my records even though my VPI HW19 Mk IV with Graham 1.5T arm is a very decent front end. Since I do have a large collection of records, I had to decide whether to give up on them or get the only TT that addresses this problem with records - a Nakamichi (in my case a Dragon-CT, about $3000 on ebay). I bought one and am happy with it. It's a very fine TT that does truly solve the problem (I'm a musician and apparently bothered by this problem more than most listeners). But, had I not a large collection of records I wouldn't consider getting a TT and beginning to acquire records. Ovbviously we all hear differently. What I hear with my system is sound as satisfying with digital as it is with vinyl. A somewhat different presentation, but at least as satisfying. I'm talking about plain red-book CDs. And this kind of reproduction doesn't require an exotic player. Use almost any player with digital-out and invest less than $1000 in a good DAC - say a Benchmark or Lavry - and you should have wonderful sound from any decently recorded CDs. Perhaps I should qualify that by saying that I listen to classical music almost exclusively, so don't know from experience if other genres of music have been as well recorded (but not perfectly!). But if they are, I see no reason to get into the analog domain, since you don't even have a record collection to listen to. Good luck and happy listening, whatever you decide to do. |
I think you are making the right move. My best suggestion would be to browse thrift stores for 'starter' vinyl, and let your friends know they can bring over all those old records from the basement for your perusal.
Pick only the cleaner albums and go from there. Buy an occasional higher end album for comparison. You'll be amazed at what you can find cheap if you're patient. You'll also be amazed at the sound of true audiophile quality records. Mix it up and have some fun.
Cheers,
RW |
Michael: so welcome, to the machine! |
Vinyl RULES. CD'S are hard with no space and time. |
ER, I meant XA. that's AR XA.. |
OK, I rested for awhile and then snapped and bought a modded AR AX from david at vinylnirvana.com. He's adding a Rega 250 arm and Ortofon OM 30 cartridge. Now I'll see if I can find some vinyl, and join you guys for awhile. Just like an alcoholic, right? A few beers won't hurt, just a couple........... |
Viridian,
Well said.
Please come over for some serious intervention!
Happy Xmas! John Lennon |
Oh come on, do it!
I was in a similar spot about 3 years ago. I bought a Scout, upgraded to a Scoutmaster and am now close to pulling the trigger on a Raven AC. I didn't "need" to upgrade beyond the Scout but I'm loving the tweeking and buying new and old records. It's been a blast and I don't regret any of it for a second. You don't have to spend a fortune if you don't want to. Good luck in your decision. |
I'm stepping back from the precipice for awhile. Whew. That was close. You guys are fascinating. Thanks for the shared experience and excellent advice. I can't believe I generated such a long thread. I'll start another one when I fall off. thanks to all....mb |
Harder to roll a fat one on a CD jewel box versus a lp. There was a lot of proven research on the subject in the mid-70s. Sadly, it is a little foggy in my mind.
But seriously, CDs and MP3s work great if you are mobile, on the road commuting or airbourne as a road warrior. I am amazed I have my entire record collection fitting in a 80gig iPod which can stay with me EVERYWHERE. Newer CD players are able to dig out greater detail than before, and I expecially like the new players I hear out of the UK by Rega and Leema.
Records are great for casual listening around the home and there are some great deals on turntables. The Pro-ject 5.2 and Rega P1 and P3-24 match some of the best turntables from twenty years ago and can be had for a few hundred dollars. Quality in vinyl has never been great. Two records of the same title by artist rarely sound the same, so you have to be very careful when collecting used records. Be careful of newer releases. Reissues rarely match the original issues in master tape quality. |
Elinor, you're suggesting a $10,000 CD/Disc player vs. a $3000 vinyl front-end to get comparable quality levels. I don't think that's very close. There are several intergrated TT/arm/cartridge possibilities that compete with the excellent EMM player for 1/3 the cost.
Dave |
OK, what do you like? Vinyl sound or digital? Vinyl is a complex thing comprising TT selection, arm selection, cartridge choice based in some part on the arm used, and phono preamp selected to match the choice of cartridge for gain and loading factor. If these criteria are not met, you will end up with an unsatisfactory vinyl playback system. Oh yes, you don't have any records? No problem, that will run you thousands of $$$. You would be better off buying a much better cd player than the one you currently own. I mean, you are looking at a lot of money to get into vinyl in a satisfactory way. Take the money and buy a really good cd player like the EMM Labs or an Esoteric. |
I suspect that the fact that you're asking this question is simply because you want a new toy. If you really wanted to get into vinyl, you wouldn't be asking "if" you should get a turntable, you'd be asking WHICH one you should get in a given price range.
That said, vinyl is one heck of a toy...if you enjoy a hunt-and-discover type of shopping, there's nothing like vinyl. Everything from hardware, to cleaning materials, to used vinyl, to new vinyl...it's all fun to buy due to its scarcity. Every time I find what I want, be it online, in a store or at a flea market, there's a little victory dance going on in my head. And when I bring home new records, there's nothing like cleaning and spinning a new find for the first time.
Good luck with your decision, keep us in the loop... |
My apologies to Santa himself. |
if I can relay one more testimony,
Shook Up On Vinyl
'Twas the biggest decision
I've faced in a while
Warm up to vinyl?
Like a good audiophile
I called out my plea
And the stories were told
But doubt still lingers
What have I been sold?
It turns me to think
This is not black or white
Proponents are rearing
And lined for a fight
And it pains me to know
More than vinyl vs CD
There's lots to consider
Is vinyl right for me?
So the time had arrived
My heavy, weary head
A moment of respite
Put these thoughts to bed
And if I had visions
Of components and racks
There's a mouse in the corner
Sitting next to it's trap
Then late in the night
My ears did discern
A commanding declare
Just what would I learn
My dreams were blackened
Like a moonless sky
And down from the rafters
Fell this stirring cry
Yes detail, yes dynamic
Yes PRAT and unveiled
Yes coherence, yes clarity
Yes delivery and breathed
His warm voice was golden
Said I looked in bad shape
Then he offered me comfort
That bore his namesake
He was dressed real tight
And shook at the pelvis
The sequence was sparkling
His name, simply, "Elvis"
"These shiny black discs
Will magically sing!
Expansive bright covers
Are fit for a king!"
"This disc has no limits
To what you'll perceive
The music that flows
No work to believe"
"I speak from my heart
This isn't a ruse
And now that I've left
I live in these grooves"
"Years pass me by
But I still get around
This heavenly transport
Is where I am found"
Then quick as a blink
Doubt returned, shook my head
Everyone knows
That Elvis is ............... |
Or....
Do you look at your system and dream of what it might become? Maybe vinyl then?
vs
Are you happy to just look for the CDs? You have arrived now. |
Lots of great comments and testimony from the guys here on Audiogon. Fun read.
I say, let these comments reverberate in your head for a while. But don't think about the decision. Don't think about the pros and cons. Don't even think about the comments. Without your awareness, you will move closer to a resolution.
Maybe nothing will ever happen, and your decision loses pertenance(sp). Or someday, you will just know and proceed in the vinyl direction. Maybe you will find your self buying an LP or two and spinning it on a friend's system. Or it's just time to buy the vinyl gear.
But don't force a decision. The worst decisions can result from brute force. Something should simply tell you to move forward with vinyl. You will know it, but you may not know where the impetus came from. Your heart will be there however. Or maybe there is a gut feeling vinyl is just not for you. If there is no feeling, of course, just leave things alone. The best path is often the one that simply appears in front of you.
Darm OCD, this thread reeks of it in varying degrees. Some have escaped and some didn't they say. But I don't think of compulsion and obsession as a lamentable flaw. It's just the way some of are. It's a trait. It's a characteristic. It can be a source of strength or a vortex of decline. And what we do with our characteristics defines who we are and what we do. Many have taken this trait and accomplished wonderful and beautiful things with their drive to improve the reproduction of their favorite music.
Stolen energies returned many times more. Sure, there is a bit of suffering, but when the music washes over us....
Don't OC this decision. Relax, the best answers usually just reveal themselves to us. Spare the effort and use the energy for better purposes. |
Vinyl-where shoudl I start. Well it satrted with the VPI Scout. $1600.00 plus cartridge. Decent sound. Wanted more,
so traded the Scout in for a Scotmaster with a Discovery Cartrdige. Also bought the VPI 16.5 record cleaner. Then traded in my Thor Audio Preamp for a Thor Linestage and
Thor Phono. Well I have spent over $15,000 to see what all the talk is with Vinyl. Well, I also purchased 180 gram
and 200 gram pressings as well as Speaker Corner records and I was a favorite customer of Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct. Is it worth it? No, I still prefer the sound of my Blue Note Stibbert improved cd player. I haev a large listening room and still the record cleaning fluid smell takes days to leave. It is now 25 degrees out so not much ventilation, on purpose. To my ears, the cd experience
seems to be better overall, especiially with a good cd source. Sometimes, when the planets are aligned properly
a record such as Rachmaninoff paino concerto # 3 sounds great on the LP. Yes, sometimes, a record will do amazing things. I am not a lazy person, but I really don't believe that the record sounds better. Now, the next argument I can upgrade with VPI or start over with a different table
completely. That could be another $10,000, VPI speed controller, new heavy platter, longer arm, better cartridge, if you are in the turntable business, there is no end. So I decided not to upgrade with VPI or spend anymore money seeking to make the LP sound great. I am 55 and probably want some money for retirement. So, as much as I would like to throw another $10,000 into vinyl. It's
just not worth it. One could say sell your VPI and buy direct from I( forget the name of the company, but you are still looking at substantial money. If money is no problem and you enjoy the search then go for it. If you want to spend time enjoying your music, get a great cd player.
There are many. Good luck. |
In my subjective opinion, all the talk about if and how one can make CD sound better than vinyl is a bit of a blind alley. If I may invoke a crude metaphor: CD is like an electric space heater whereas vinyl is like a fireplace. They both do pretty much the same thing (provide warmth), but I seriously doubt anyone here would wish to veg out on the threshold of a daydream (ideally with the rig playing some wonderfully complex meditation on existence by Shostakovich or King Crimson) staring into the space heater. But you still have to carry wood, get the fire going, keep an eye on it every so often, and face the chore of cleaning out the ashes. Space heater: More boring than a North Korean newscast, but plug in, push button, get heat. Don't want heat? Push other button. No-brainer, no chipped nails.
CD is simple and "low maintenance". There's the thumb factor: you can be a major klutz and still make CD work for you. And to me, most CDs sound pretty good. I have some favorite music on CD that I couldn't get on vinyl. Digital hostage? Maybe. But with upsampling penetrating the high end's mainstream (don't think about THAT one too hard) CD's shortcomings are pretty well dressed over.
LP requires actually touching the equipment, and it requires that one become a neatnik about the records themselves. Also, today's high-grade moving coil cartridges are just plain fragile. When my Dual tt's arm lift failed suddenly, it dropped a Sumiko Blue Point hard enough to turn it into a Blue Pointless. Now I'm running a pricier, even less crashworthy cartridge, (did I mention that I am developinga tremor?) and everytime I move the tonearm I have to take a moment and deliberately relax a hidden part of myself that got seriously clenched while the stylus was in jeopardy. But the reward is music that is easier to listen to and just different from CD. I have music on vinyl that I couldn't get on CD.
Logistics:
CD: one box, not counting interconnects.
LP: Turntable. Good $500, quite good $1500, great (more).
Tonearm: Good - usually included and most often a Rega. Very good: $1000. Great: $5000.
Cartridge: (this part wears out eventually. It holds the rock that you drag through the gutter to get to the music.) Good $150, very good $750, great - into five figures.
Phono stage. Good $300, very good $1000, great $5k - 40k. Yow.
Not counting two pair of interconnects.
cheers apo |
Nope, Can't do that!
In my experience, Zero to minimum signal is lost in Vinyl reproduction, so music sounds natural as it is intended to be (assuming recordings are great to begin with). Even a modesy well put together and set up TT rig would be more satisfying. Although I do have two really great CD playback systems (one of them sounds uncannily as good as (well a tad less)Vinyl)I switch to for music that is not available on Vinyl. Most of the time though it is Vinyl. This from a Vinyl novice(2 years) and I have amassed more music on Vinyl then on Last 20 years worth of CDs! |
I think that Michaeljbrown understand his peril. I re-entered analog the same way. Cramming CDs into a box and waiting for the sound to come out was not doing it for me. I picked up a few of the classics that I had enjoyed growing up at a local used bookstore, which justified my wife ordering me a new SL-1200 (a facsimile of what my late '70's-early'80's chums would have considered a nice deck) for $400 delivered a few Christmasses back. From there, I was bequeathed four or five peoples' collections spanning classical, jazz, and classic rock/pop. Next Christmas was the VPI 16.5 cleaning machine. Next came filling in my "must-haves" from eBay-- I've been about 85% satisfied with the results. Finally, the terminal stage has set in-- I acquired some of the classic decks of my youth and built whole systems around them. My wife can't complain because she started the whole cycle (this is important!), although I do hide a few decks... I haunt the four local thrift shops and two used record stores whose cashiers know me, and occasionally plop $30 or $40 down on a new audiophile release with two local dealers. I actually get off on a session of Orbitrac followed by VPI cleaning and play-testing, and have begun buying multiple copies of the same LP just so I can evaluate which one is the keeper-- or which one must endure the 2.7g conical force of my DL-103. I have a few excellent CD players, but have not listened to a CD in half a year and do not have one currently hooked up. My grade-school-age daughters are now understanding the anticipation of the "needle drop." I fear that I am about to splatter myself on the rocks of modern high-end. I also enjoy the hell out of music again. |
I should also pitch in here.
Man you should really run away form this. I have a 10K tube CD player and have not used it in 6 months, I got an upgrade to my TT setup and spent almost 15 K there have 9k LP's Hybrid Mono blocks and tube preamp and phono stage. all the clicks and pops every cleanign session and effort is well worth it but STAY AWAY there is no end to this insanity. |
Indeed they are. I had an AES djh signature pre, which matched up nicely with the thiels. Of course, I couldn't stand prosperity, and traded it back to upscale audio for a Cary cinema 6, which I sold after I finally bit on an EAD Ovation +, which is proof that there is nothing o.o..o...obsessive about me! |
Mod the player no stock player will touch it for anywhere near the price. Of course that depends on what they are modding for 900. And by the way Thiels and tubes are a wonderful match.
Chuck |
Though I've not heard your Denon CDP, based on posted reviews this unit looks to be basically decent but compromised in the areas of cheap op amps in the analog stage, clock, and bridge rectifiers. You might have a chat with Reference Audio Mods or one of the other modifiers regarding upgrade options. |
Go for it, as many have suggested especially if you are not into new music, thats what cds are for.
For me it is somewhat of an o o o obsession... whew I finally got that out!
I agree with Joe from Seattle
"Just DO NOT TRY ANY TUBE AMPLIFICATION!!!!!!!!! That way lies insanity, "they're coming to take me away, ha, ha" "
Have fun |
Michaeljbrown,
re-read your last question.I think you know the answer |
So for $5,000, I can get a cd player that'll stay with a $1500 TT...? |
Once you get a good vinyl setup you will not want to listen to CD's anymore. There is just no comparison.
Not with my Modwright modded belt driven transport rig. CD and analog sound real close to each other. As each format's weaknesses are addressed, they both approach music. With psychic power and primal intensity, |
I agree with Dgarretson. This is why I decided to support one format. And besides I can't stand surface noise (snap, click and pop; sounds like the rice krispy characters) and I don't care how hard you try you can not eliminate it 100%. |
Beware that after you taste good vinyl, you may either stop listening to RBCD altogether, or else enter the two formats in an arms race of upgrades on a scale that bankrupted the USSR. Over the years your upgraded analog and digital front ends will exchange leadership positions several times in your system. In the end the audiophile vocabulary will be struck dumb to describe any meaningful differences between the formats. But alas, when you're finally ready to forget all about upgrades and just sit down and listen to music, you'll be forced to sell off the entire system to replenish retirement accounts.
No lie, on a great CDP RBCD can approach and some respects surpass good vinyl. |
Some of these turntables you guys have posted here would never make it through an airport metal detector..bomb scare!... |
Well, I like the czccbl (sounds like a polish name I once tried to pronounce in Chicago and got the door slammed in my face)approach. I can get a great AR mod, do the memory lane thing, buy some old jazz records, and then jump off the vinyl cliff and splatter myself all over the rocks of Obsession, continuing until I have a tt that looks like something the U.S. marines would explode with the aid of their bomb control units...... |
If you are getting in do spend as much as a sailboat will cost, I have a mediocre vinyl setup and my CD is far better, of course I am always toying with the idea of upgrading, but I really have to trash my current vinyl rig and buy a new one...or a sailboat.
In the meantime I am having a ball tweaking my horn speakers and my tube amps, coupling cap rolling and tube rolling, mainly rectifiers (what a change!)...So if audio on its whole isnt teaky enough now I need to relearn how to setup a cartridge dig out my protractor, choose the right arm that will probably cost an arm and a leg, and decide between SS or tube phonopreamp (my old tube preamp wont play moving coil)...All this to relisten to my old 80s Lps which I dont want to rebuy as CDs and that doesnt really sound good anyway... I go to used LP stores and I manily find my own Vinyl collecion over and over again...nothing new (what a surprise!!!)
So its newer Lps at 30 buck a piece for me.
But when a go to a friends house with one of those nice wedding cake turntables, vinyl can sound so good... |
I have an Ayre C-5xe which plays all silver discs. Let me tell you that DVD-A and/or SACD is very close to regular CD sound...sometimes not even as good. If the potential is there, I haven't found it. Vinyl overall is the best method to get the highest quality sound into your home. All formats are very variable however, and you can easily find a CD better than a vinyl record, or an SACD better than a CD. For the most part however, vinyl measures up more frequently |
|
The point about Hi Def digital surpassing analog has legs, but I think it's flawed. I came back to analog recently (never got rid of my old albums and most of them are in A-condition). I bought a Pro-ject RM10 with a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge for $2880 which elevated my vinyle experience several orders of excellence above the AR-days. My vinyl blows away my several hundred CDs.
Soon after I bought the Pro-ject I bought a Korg MR1000 that'll record 1-bit DSD up to 5.6MHz. This thing matches the analog in resolution.
DVD-Audio is a format that I could be happy with forever, IF I had a broad software selection. SACD has that same potential, but it's really been screwed up with producer's perception that they need to add multi-channel. I think we're moving toward Hi Def programming coming only from downloads, at resolution rates no where near the potential of DSD, much less DVD-A, or fewer and fewer self-produced CDs OR vinyl reissues, which actually seem to be thriving.
Concerns for digital compatability, lack of average consumer demand (dude, mp3 is the best), distribution uncertainties, etc. all adding up to an environment where producers can't afford to take a chance on Hi Rez, except for the vinyl market. Of course that could be wrong.
Vinyl is here right now and thriving. It's just like buying into any new technology, if you wait for things to settle down, you'll likely miss the whole thing.
Dave |
Buy used equipment and a couple of albums if you like then you can always dive deeper. If not you can sell all the stuff and not lose much money.
Chuck |
Aborigine, your system definitely cost more than a sailboat; probably in the neighborhood of a Cal 45 footer... |
No Bucketjr...CD's sound very good indeed. Comparing my Ayre C5xe to my Superscoutmaster/10.5i/Benz Ebony LP, the CD sounds like there is a scrim in font of the performance. The difference is like regular tv to hi def |
After listening to CD's for twenty years I took the plunge back into Analog. I had alot of turntables as a kid. I come from a family of musicians. I bought a used VPI Aries with a new wood bodied Benz cartridge. I had it professional set up by the very well known Brooks Berdan. I also bought a ARC-Ph-5
here on Audiogon. All told with cables and a VPI cleaning machine I spent 6000.00. Keep in mind I bought the TT used as well as the phono-pre and cables. If I had purchased everything new I would of spent 10,000.
I have a Gamut CD-1 which is a highly regarded CD player that I have enjoyed for the last 4 years. I have also had other highend CD players.
To make a long story short I have had the VPI setup for the last 9 months and I have only listended to the CD player twice. Once you get a good vinyl setup you will not want to listen to CD's anymore. There is just no comparison. |
Go for it! Jump!
Don't be a CD weenee.
Make it a point to hit every Goodwill store in town. |
All my friends agree CDs sound like crap, vinyl is alive, or they're not my friends. |
Vinyl has elevated my audio bug from "an expensive pastime" to "a ruinously expensive hobby". Come to the Broke Side, Luke...
Having two different kinds of source, different but equal imo, has more than doubled the fun factor of the rig. The pix appended to my System contribution show how.
cheers apo |
You'd be surprised what you can do on the used market. But even so, good vinyl does take a little sweat equity. |
A lot of very interesting replies here, but I have to say Elizabeth's is the best. I love it!
Cheers,
John |
Yes, less expensive than sailing, but you will still experience moments of being becalmed... and moments of running with the wind. Coming about! |
Don't do it unless you have easy access to used records at a good indie record store-- unfortunately a dying breed. Amassing a large collection of desireable LPs at a record store will cost a fraction of building a collection through ebay or other web sources. Most people would be better off upgrading to a better digital front end, which these days can surpass many turntables. |
