Well, I've been here before. Once again, I'm thinking of venturing into the Analog world, but before doing so, I wanted to pose a few questions to fellow agoners to make sure my head (ears?) are in the right place.
Some Background: My current setup consists of a Modwright Transporter, Musical Fidelity KW 500 (hybrid tube pre/SS Amp), and Focal/JM 1027be speakers. My entire current collection is digital and I have NEVER owned Vinyl before NOR have I ever heard a high-end Analog setup.
My Tastes/musical likes: I am all about soundstage and imaging. Vocal accuracy is hugely important and instrument placing (hence, imaging) are part of what I look for when listening. Genre wise, mostly rock, folk, acoustic and blues. Some jazz as well. I generally try to stick to labels that produce good-sounding material...not over-compressed garbage.
On with the questions:
1. One of the biggest things that has kept me from trying Vinyl thus far is the concern of excessive hiss and crackle/pop that vinyl is known for. Is it safe to assume that purchasing new Vinyl and played on a higher quality setup will reduce (eliminate?) the pops and crackle sounds? I have no problem purchasing exclusively new vinyl, knowing full well that the process of shopping used is what draws so many to this market...
2. If I purchase new vinyl, only play it on a decent player, and store it properly, will I still have to clean it? How expensive is a cleaning machine? Are there (reasonable), less expensive alternatives to a cleaning machine?
3. Based on my integrated (tube-pre,SS amp) and speakers, are these a good match for Vinyl? Does anyone know if the KW 500 Phono input is adequate for a good turntable? My digital system has a tendency to be on the bright side for a lot of material, but not everything. Strangly, even at 31 years old, I can still hear up to around 19Khz so I'm a bit picky about the highs...
4. How complicated is the setup of the TT? Being that I've never worked wtih it before, I'm somewhat intimidated by the "setup" requirements of the equipment. What are the core requirements/knowledge to properly setup a TT.
5. And finally, the most subjective question of all. If I had a budget of about $1,000-$1,500 for a TT, Tonearm and Cartridge, what would be a good starting place? I'd obviously be looking for used here from Agon.
I know this was a long post so thanks for hanging in and reading it all :-). Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Yes, fatgh0st, I agree you can easily use non-suspended tables. Even within this sub-category, different tables will react differently to what they are sited on. My experience is that most do fine on a rigid table, but it doesn't always need to be a heavy one.
In general I agree with Raquel about footfalls, however, I have heard a couple of setups with 100+ lb non suspended tables on suspended floors and there was no footfall issue. Every situation is different, and there are ways to correct such a problem. Anyway, at the OPs price point I don't think we're talking about a massive table.
Absolutely. This is not rocket science, and there are excellent tools and information available. However, there are some delicate things around turntables. There are many more people who have jumped into vinyl, not achieved what their digital sources can do, and then dump it. If the rest of us are lucky these folk are simply disappointed. More times than not, they join the ranks of vinyl bashers. I think fatgh0st's experience would be greatly enhanced if he could connect with someone close to him. But in the least, he should seek setup help.
Well-said, Raquel. For all the dire warnings in threads like this, as though several blocks of your city will explode if your cartridge alignment is off by a nanometer, let's remember that LPs have been the quality consumer musical medium of choice for 62 years. All through my childhood, teen years, and on into middle adulthood, people of all ages played LPs and ate dinner, danced, partied, and made love to the music they provided. True, you get better results with better turntable, arm & cart and closer tolerances in the setup, but it's still just geometry, not rocket science, and the worst that can happen is less-than-optimal sound, not a manmade disaster.
I started to type out a post in this thread a few days ago about suspended versus mass-loaded tables, and then bagged it because I feared it would scare people off. Tables tend to come in two varieties, suspended or mass-loaded, whereby the designer attempts to address airborne and physical vibrations via suspensions or mass-loading. Tables with suspensions deal with vibration by suspending part or all of the plinth and platter with springs, rubber grommets or rubber bands, etc. Examples are the Linn LP12 and the Basis tables. Mass-loaded tables address vibration by using engineered materials (something that's typically heavy or dense or otherwise structured to affect vibration, like carbon fiber) to evacuate vibration or convert it into something less harmful to playback. Examples are the Walker, the Galibier, and the Verdier La Platine. Some table designs are hybrids, like the SME's and some VPI tables. Every table needs to be on a good platform, but this is particularly important for mass-loaded tables, as they are quite susceptible to foot fall if not placed on an isolated surface.
I would strongly recommend that a beginner stay away from the suspended tables, particularly the Linn, which is capable of high performance, but a real handful to keep set up properly. It's a shame, as the Linn's are great for rock - they boogie.
Regarding LP quality, the above poster is correct - it's very much an album-by-album thing. A particular album release or particular artist may get a rep for good pressings (White Stripes releases, for example), but if you're talking about a classic rock album from the 70's, there may be fifteen different pressings and it's impossible to know what you've got until you clean it and spin it. Also and very importantly, you can't completely judge a used album by its face - many seemingly perfect looking LP's have serious groove damage and sound like shit because they were played with bad styli, while albums that look somewhat scratched up sound great because the scratches are surface-level and the grooves were not penetrated. Obviously ragged LP's are obviously ragged, but don't be surprised if you get a "mint"-rated LP that looks less than mint but sounds flawless.
Finally, I disagree with the posts that portray vinyl as being some kind of gigantic science project that will have you running around with a protractor, never knowing if your going to be able to play a record. It's simple - get a mass-loaded table, have it set up properly (and then resist the temptation to fuck around with the set up), vacuum clean every LP that comes into your possession before you play it, and thereafter, before and after you play a side, remove surface dust with a brush. Finally, pay your set-up guy $150 every year to eighteen months to come out and check your set-up. That's it - the only thing that's remotely inconvenient is the four or five minutes it takes to vacuum clean an LP - if you come home from the bargain bins with fifty LP's that need cleaning, pay your kid or some kid in the neighborhood a few bucks to do it for you.
01-26-11: Raquel ... I'm listening to a performance of Liszt's 1st Piano Concerto on a Musical Heritage Society LP that I picked up at Tower's used classical bins many years ago that I doubt I paid a buck for, and it's sublime.
MHS editions have pretty much always been good in my experience as well. The performances are well-played, recorded, mastered, and pressed. And it seems that former owners on average took good care of them.
Here's another tip: Box sets from subscriptions (e.g., Time-Life) often arrive at the thrift shops unplayed. Many of the Time-Life classical box sets are culled from RCA Living Stereo vaults, a few later ones are EMI. I once picked up 16 4-LP Time-Life box sets of their "Great Men of Music" series, at $1 each. Performances are by Rubinstein, Heifetz, Julian Bream, Boston Symphony w/Charles Munch, Van Cliburn, Cleveland w/George Szell, etc., and are in excellent to unplayed condition.
In general, IMO, I can't see putting much money into a transport these days. Very few are anything special since most manufacturers have gone. Many times the mechanism are no different from what you find in a PC. I found a good performing CDP and it usually does sound better than music played from a file server. I think this is because the CDPs are a mature product and the transport-less options are still developing.
You have to take each LP on its own merits regarding playback. Yes, you can get guidance on specific releases, but each LP can be as different as people. I find the forums work best for me as far as trusting the input I get from others regarding an LP release. If you get into collecting $1K copies of old jazz then you'll need much more professional input, but you'll know that if you do get into that craziness.
Get your feet back on the ground if you are serious about vinyl playback. Be prepared for frustration, anger, set backs. There are many more mechanical interactions than you are accustom to, not to mention the importance of electrical components in the chain. I'm not trying to scare you off, just give you a dose of reality of what living with vinyl can be like. Especially when you are a complete novice. I strongly urge you to seek out someone with vinyl experience close to where you live that can give you hands-on, face to face help and guidance.
Have you thought about whether or not you will use a suspended turntable or a non-suspended one?
So is there a dedicated site somewhere that user's can rate the SQ of LPs (by catalog number) to help take some of the guesswork out (similar to sa-cd.net for SACDs)? Or is it all through forums and such?
If it makes you feel any better, I put up with a 11' x 22' room in a Manhattan apartment for fourteen years. The upside was that I was in a pre-war building with walls and floors made from foot-thick concrete - the only person who ever complained was in a neighboring building.
Regarding used LP's, you'll soon find that some which cost a buck or two sound great (I mean GREAT) and that many new LP's from major reissue labels are disappointing - it's somewhat hit or miss. I'm listening to a performance of Liszt's 1st Piano Concerto on a Musical Heritage Society LP that I picked up at Tower's used classical bins many years ago that I doubt I paid a buck for, and it's sublime.
Maineiac: I will certainly keep you posted once I shore up my plans (should be in the next few weeks).
I've had a Transporter as my digital front end for about 2 years and recently bought the Modwright Transporter (2 weeks ago) here from Agon. I need to sell one of them, and the proceeds will be going directly to a TT setup. The question now is, which do I sell.
One of the nice thing with the Transporter and Squeezebox setups, is that you can synchronize the same song between two units down to the millisecond...it's literally perfect. So for testing, I ran my MW Transporter into one input on my preamp and the stock Transporter into another input, and then started a song. I could then flip back and forth between units with literally NO interuption in the music. It's about the best A/B test scenario you could ever get.
Anyway, last night I sat down and had my wife help me by doing it blind. I didn't know which one I was source I was starting each song with and then she would change them multiple times throughout the song and I would have to pick which one sounded better. I was hoping that I would fail the test miserably, thereby negating my need for the more expensive Modwright transporter which would equal more dollars for my TT setup. Unfortunately (for my TT funds) I passed the test everytime and was able to identify the Modwright Transporter every time as the better "sounding" unit.
Anyway, sorry to ramble...I'm just really excited about it now though. Sometimes, getting past that initial decision is all you need. I spent about an hour last night researching LPs and finding my favorite albums and seeing what they cost (new). It's amazing how expensive some of the new vinyl is (as many have suggested in this thread) but there's also some good stuff that's affordable. An example is Willie Nelson - Stardust. One of my all-time favorite albums. It sounded excellent on SACD, but sounds dry on Redbook CD. I have to think the Vinyl of this baby would absolutely sail. Looks like I can pick it up used for about $20 which is more than reasonable...
Raquel: Ironically, I had moved my entire room around and placed the speakers on the long wall for about 1 year (after my original post from way back). The soundstaging was absolutely better, however I had a serious dilemma. My listening room doubles as a dedicated home theater with a 100" screen. Sitting only 9' of a 100" screen was just too darn close and it made for terrible seating for everyone except me :-) during movies.
Anyway, I recently switched everything back again and I'm back to the short wall again. The imaging has suffered, but it's not terrible. Deep, just not exceptionally wide. I know what you mean by the tunnel effect though... Unfortunately, it's all I have to work with right now. With 3 children under 6 years old, my placement options are limited (dedicated room only) and I've only been granted one room for dedicated A/V by my better half (can't say I can really argue).
In about 5 years, we are planning to put an addition to the back of the house and in that addition will be a dedicated, 2 channel listening room built to spec (this has already been negotiated :-)). But until then, I have to deal with the 11.5" wide room that I have :-(
Right now, the speakears (center of woofer) are about 2.5' from each side wall and 3.5' from the back wall. I then sit about 7' from the front of them. Ideally, I'd like to have enough width to have 3.5' on each side, 5.5' from the back and sit about 8-10' back.
@Riley804: the OP said as much at the beginning of his post. Funny though since that was over 2 years ago--evidently, it didn't take back then.
I started down this vinyl journey only 5 months ago. Gone through 2 phonostages, 2 preamps, 2 turntables, have 2 carts, 4 headshells, yards of cable and just bought another tonearm. It's frustrating as all get out, what with all the seemingly endless tweaks and nanometer adjustments, the seemingly endless possible cart/tonearm/cable combinations, the purchasing of nearly inevitably poor quality used records, and of course the non-stop draining of one's bank account.
My tt is currently in the shop and so have been listening to CD's. It's just not the same--not nearly. And so despite the not insignificant inconveniences of vinyl, I persist and will do so for some time---assuming I don't hurl it all in the garbage and come to my senses.
Rational deliberation is pretty useless in this domain. Like falling in love, passion for vinyl is more of a discovery than a decision. If you find yourself reading about tt's and tonearms at 3 in the morning and ignoring your loved ones, then you're a candidate. If not, well, there are other options.
I had checked out your prior threads as well. It is less than ideal that you have your system on the short wall - everyone says to set up systems that way, but for someone who values soundstaging, you'll have a much wider, more natural stage if you go with the long wall (you may lose a bit of depth, but you'll eliminate the tunnel effect). Since you listen at 7 ft., this should work well unless your listening chair or couch is thick-backed and thus keeps your head far off the back wall (I suspect that it would still be preferable to the short wall). Try it and report back.
01-25-11: Fatgh0st Maineiac: You may be getting closer already :-) I've already started thinking about how I can edge my initial budget up closer to $2,500 by getting rid of something else.
So tell me, what does an extra $1,000 (from $1,500 to $2,500) open up for me in terms of options? Should I still just stick to the $1,500 for starters?
There are a few excellent rigs at $1500--the Marantz, the Clearaudio, Rega P5, and some I'm less familiar with from Pro-Ject and Music Hall.
At $2500 the choices expand with VPI offerings, the Rega P7, more sophisticated models from Pro-Ject and Music Hall, and a couple that have reputation of challenging the high priced spread--the Well Tempered Amadeus and the Townshend Rock 7 with damping trough option (though by the time you get a tonearm it's more like $3500 or more).
If you want it simple and good, I'd go for the Marantz TT-15S1 with included, mounted, set up, balanced and aligned Clearaudio Virtuoso wood-bodied MM cart (it's an $800 cart). Audio Advisor has a closeout demo on sale for $1359.99. Clearaudio makes the Marantz turntable, so there should be exceptional turntable/arm/cartridge compatibility.
Once you settle on your TT/arm/cartridge, you may want to consider a MINT LP protractor. It is about $110 from Hong Kong and there are a few threads about it. Proper cartridge alignment is essential, and this is one fantastic tool. However, if you buy a new rig, the dealer should be able to set it up for you. If you go used, find a knowledgeable friend to help you along. You will surely benefit in time and learning curve.
You need to consider the costs outside the initial TT/Cart combo as well.
The software is on average $15-$20 for new and much more for the Audiophile pressings. You have stated a preference for new so even a modest collection like mine @ about 250 records is a pile of new CDs.
I bought primarily used @ an average of $10-$12. I'm into classic rock primarily and the availability of the highly desired titles has become a problem in my area and the price is moving up in pace. The higher price from what many of you experience is from where I am and I'm extremely picky about condition so I only buy the near mint stuff. A couple used dealers stated they are having a very hard time coming up with inventory now. People leaving vinyl have sold their collections by now or hanging on to them to see where the prices are going to go. There are a great many new re-issues but many are from digital sources I see this personally, as the worst of both worlds but others may not agree.
As has been stated you need record cleaning materials that can be as little as $100 to $700. The actual cleaners are give or take $40 a bottle. New inner sleeves run about 20-25 cents each.
I'm a firm believer in learning the craft. I built 2 of the 3 tables I have ( Lencos) so I'm not one to drag my TT down to a shop. If you are one of those you must factor those shop costs in, should you upgrade or buy used as you will likely need to install a new cartridge. If you chose to learn how to do things on your own there are things you will need to buy such as balance/scale for VTF, protractors( these can be from free to worth several hundred.
Whether you will find it worthwhile is an important consideration. I believe vinyl can sound dramatically better but not always. I personally find it much more album by album which format will sound better than a blanket statement.
In closing, all I can give you is my assessment of whether I feel my money was well spent. I started out about 2 years ago in exactly the same spot as you - Ground zero. I have 3 tables ( one cheapy for playing thrashed records) in two systems. I have about $3500 tied up in each rig: TT /arm /cart/ phono stage/cables. I must be useless and lazy but I only play vinyl about 5% of the time, so for me it hasn't been cost effective. However, it has been fun as I love the DIY aspect. Your mileage may vary qualifier in place.
I agree! I love those new bred-breeds. In fact, my friend is now developing a new breed combining the best of Shitsou's and Bull Dog's. It will be called a Bull-Shit.
Stick to $1500, and spend the other $1000 on quality LP pressings. They are expensive, and $1000 will get you fewer quality, QUIET, pressings than you might think. Buying used vinyl is great, but it's hard to find really quiet used vinyl. Diehrard vinyl addicts like myself are often willing to overlook some noise, but since you are (by your own admission) really sensitive to clicks and pops, don't sabotage your experiment by buying vinyl on the cheap. Good luck.
That crack about labradoodles was way out of line!
If you go down to your local druggie hangout and ask the crack/meth/heroin/pill popping dope fiends if you should give it a try, what do you think they will answer? Do you think they have your best interest at heart or are they validating their own choices?
Maineiac: You may be getting closer already :-) I've already started thinking about how I can edge my initial budget up closer to $2,500 by getting rid of something else.
So tell me, what does an extra $1,000 (from $1,500 to $2,500) open up for me in terms of options? Should I still just stick to the $1,500 for starters?
Anybody want to do a side bet on the total money he has into vinyl playback (not software) in 18 months? I say the over/under is $5K and I would take the over.
I was trying to use contrast to make my point, which was that your system, and your listening preferences and priorities as you describe them, REQUIRE you to have an analog rig. Or as you correctly put it, you and your system are better tailored toward vinyl. I'm sorry that my comment was confusing in this regard. And there is nothing wrong with your speakers - they are excellent and the Beryllium tweeter in particular is superb (I might choose something else if rock were what I usually listen to, but your speakers do rock well and are very well balanced performers, balance being generally the best way to go).
Addressing your immediately prior post, the VPI Scout is a good table, if expensive for what it is. The Scout is more table than the Regas, but requires expert set-up. I myself run a VPI Aries, VPI 10.5 arm, and van den Hul Frog cartridge (all set up and dialed in by Peter Ledermann, a/k/a the Soundsmith). I also have a sixteen year-old Rega Planar 3 with a Grado Sonata cartridge on it. My main analog rig does not constitute elite equipment, but it's set up properly and sits on a custom shelf.
Generally speaking, moving-magnet phono stages require a moving-magnet cartridge or high output moving-coil cartridge, both of which put out a relatively high amount of voltage. You can't run a regular (low-output) moving-coil cartridge with them, as the signal off the cartridge is not strong enough. Conversely, you generally can't run a moving-magnet cartridge or high-output moving coil cartridge with a moving-coil phono stage, as MC phono stages are made to amplify the tiny voltages put out by low-output cartridges and will overload if hooked up to a high-output cartridge.
There is one additional item that I would like to correct from my initial post. In response to the first of your five questions, I concluded by writing, "In summary, if you have a modern table that has been carefully set up and you have properly cleaned the LP, noise is not the issue just as with CDs, the quality of the recording, not the medium (whether LP or CD), becomes the issue." I did not mean to give digital, or more accurately, PCM digital, that much credit - I meant to write that, under those circumstances, noise is no more of an issue with analog than it is with CD, i.e., just as with CD, noise is not an issue. I did not intend to write that PCM digital, as a medium, is fine and that the only issue is the recording. I do not want to reignite the old digital-versus-analog debate, but perhaps, given the thread's subject, it is appropriate for me to share my experience, which was summarized quite well by a prominent audio writer recently. Analog to my ears is a medium that is fundamentally pure and accurate to the source, but that has the occasional pimple (ticks and pops) on its otherwise perfect face. On the other hand, digital is fundamentally and thoroughly flawed to my ears - it's like a milkshake that was made with bad milk or a sausage made from bad meat inasmuch as the problem is thoroughly mixed in and indivisible from the whole - no matter that you take a tiny taste or consume three-quarters of it, the bad taste is everywhere. In my experience, only a small handful of top digital rigs (Playback Designs, AMR, Meitner) make it sound truly good. I've gone from Levinson separates to an Audio Research single-box and now to a $1,500 Chinese player - it's hard for me to justify spending a lot of money on the medium (and yes, I have a lot of CD's).
If you consider buying used.. There is a Nottingham Interspace deck/arm with cartridge here on Audiogon. I suggest you get it. It is better than Rega P5 let alone P3 or Pro-Ject Xpression. The man wants $1500 for almost new table, offer him $1400 plus shipping and it is yours. If you decide to buy it, ask him if he still has some Nottingham oil. If he doesn't, the bottle of that oil costs $100 though many people use good synthetic oil with Nottinghams. I myself just bought Spacedeck/Spacearm and paid for that bottle from hwdsound.com Sumiko cartridge that he has should be OK to start with. Later you might want to upgrade. Nottingham tables are not too often for sale.
If your current phono section allows only for a MM cartridge, you will need to stick to MM or look for a HIGH OUTPUT MC cartridge. Low Output MC cartridges will need a suitable MC phono amp.
In the budget range for a vinyl system you are looking at you will find numerous MM and even a few H.O. MC carts to consider buying. Lots of feedback and reviews on both types here and elsewhere such as Vinyl Asylum.
As for listening as you note, yes vinyl will allow you to just sit back and listen to a full side at a time, that is one of the best parts of vinyl playback.
Enjoyed reading your detailed response to the OP. But holy molee (sic) when I noted your comment that the entry level VPI HW-16.5 retailed for $650, I thought it was a typo. So I went to VPI's web site and you were right. The current retail price is $650. That's a big price jump from the prior retail price of $540. I'm glad that I already have one.
This thread of yours sure generated a mixed bag of reactions: C'mon in, the water's fine! Don't do it! Join us! Keep away!
I probably would have logged on to drphil.com by now.
I agree and disagree with much of the advise you have been given, and after all that you probably don't need any more. So here it is anyway (and it's worth exactly what you're paying for it) - Vinyl can be wonderful. Vinyl can be frustrating. Vinyl is almost always a PITA. But... vinyl can be wonderful.
I DO agree with the posters who urged you to start out carefully and get an "entry" deck. Find a dealer or a friend that will help you and is willing to transfer knowledge. Don't be afraid to experiment and yes, you are probably going to break something. Probably a cartridge stylus. And it's going to be expensive to repair or replace.
But most importantly, spinning vinyl has to be more than just about the music; you have to like (or at least be willing to tolerate) the process. I firmly believe that I enjoy better sound with vinyl, and I get to hear a lot of music that I can't get in other media. But is is worth the extra work? To me, yes. To some of my audio friends, no. It has to be fun or it's not worth it.
Raquel: Firstly, thanks for the lengthy and incredibly detailed response :-).
You mentioned that you didn't think my current equipment was a "very good" match to Vinyl. However, you continue to describe my setup in a positive light so I was just a bit confused and wondered if you could elaborate a bit more on your thoughts. Do you have concerns about my speakers being too bright or were you simply suggesting that my equipment is probably more tailored toward a good Vinyl front-end rather than the digital that I have now?
Wow...wonderful responses. Despite my initial reaction to the first wave of posts, and in the words of Michael Corleone himself "Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in" :-)
So I think the final decision is that I'm going to give it a shot and if it doesn't work, so be it. I don't know anyone with a good analog setup in the area and even if I did, the odds that they have a high-end digital setup in the same room on the same path of equipment (pre and amp) is probably slim-to-none. Most of (make that ALL of) my peers are digital people (my generation...I know...) and while many of them love music, none of them appreciate the sound quality.
Going to a HiFi store to hear it is always misleading. The only high-end place around here that sells Turntables (that I'm aware of, anyway) is a store called Overture and if I go there to listen, it's going to be on $30k Wilson speakers and $50k worth of amps and cables...a far cry from my system here at home.
For $1,500, I'll take the plunge and if it doesn't suit my fancy, I'll just put it back up and resell it again.
I used to LOVE going to CD stores to buy used CDs cheap but sadly, they've all closed down. The only decent joint nearby is the Princeton Record Exchange (www.prex.com) which is about 1 hour from where I live. It just so happens that they have a MASSIVE Vinyl selection as well (about 60,000 LPs). I used to go there once or twice a year to stock up on CDs, but now I'll have another reason to keep going.
As far as the cleaning/preparation rituals, that part doesn't bother me at all. When I go downstairs to listen...it's all about sitting down with the music and listening...Picking out the LP and wiping it down, then flipping sides when it's over sounds kinda fun actually.
So, now that the decision to move is out of the way, I need to focus on my specific purchase :-). a few people have thrown around the Rega P-3 and P-5 models as suggestions. I'm really keen on going used because I really feel I can just get that much more for my money by going that route. Having said that, I don't want to lose out because of an improper setup. I also don't see any Rega P-5 for sale currently on Agon so perhaps I'll just keep my eye out.
Any opinions on the VPI Scout as a good starting point? There's one for sale at http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1300589670&/VPI-Scout-/-Rega-700-Sumiko-Bl that looks intriguing...
And another question, the whole MM vs MC...I know this is a topic of huge debate, but does it matter that I match to my phono input on my preamp (which happens to be an MM)?
Thanks again everyone, you're responses have been very insightful (and have started getting me really excited about moving in this direction). With smoe more research, a little luck and a few months time, I should hopefully be spinning black discs alongside my silver ones :-)
I havent purchased a CD in this century and the only CD equipment I own is a CD recorder where I record my vinyl to CD for playback in my car or to transfer to I-tunes in full apple lossless format. Everyone I have played my recorded CDs or Ipod to has commented on its superior sound to what they are used to. So, if CDs recorded from vinyl sound better than store bought CDs, how much better do you think the vinyl played directly is.
My girlfriend, who is from New Orleans area and loves music was astounded when I first set up a vinyl playback system at her house. Now her 30 year old son has been bitten by the bug after I gave him a decent turntable setup.
If you are going to actually listen to your music, and listen hard, then vinyl is the obvious choice. If you just want to play background music while you do something else, then you can get by with CD. It is clearly more convenient.
You say your system now seems too bright. That may be a function of digital distortion, which seems worst in the high frequencies. That may be especially true if you can hear up to 19khz. I know it would drive me to turn it off. Is there a way you can try a decent turntable system in your setup to see if it is your system or just digital that make your setup seem shrill.
Dear Portly Ghost-The truth hurts. When I listen to "Satisfaction" on a cheap TT or transistor radio, I still know the song kills. I don't need imaging, soundstaging or other hocus-pocus to tell me the Stones got it right. I own ZERO audiophile-approved records and I'm proud of the fact. I have my pants around my ankles because the Sex Pistols rock. I reject the swill played at most hifi shows because it is so banal.
Go to your nearest dealer or a friend who spins vinyl and listen to Muddy Water's "Folk Singer" on LP. Then listen to it on CD. If you appreciate the difference, dip in your toes slowly and get educated as others have suggested. If you get hooked there will be no limit to how involved you decide to become.
And vinyl has only gotten better in the eight years since I returned to the format.
If your gear and musical tastes aren't a recipe for analog, I don't know what is. Classic rock and especially acoustic or semi-acoustic music like jazz, folk, and blues just sing in the analog domain. For phono stages I'd start with the Musical Fidelity; it'll probably do, and may excel for your purposes. For $1500 I'd look at a Rega P5 with Rega Exact cartridge, the Marantz TT51 with supplied Clearaudio wood-bodied MM cart, or the Clearaudio Concept.
Cleaning isn't that big of a deal unless you're getting all your LPs from thrift shops or garages. I use a carbon fiber brush for a quick dust-off before each play, or a rolled up microfiber terry towel. Really, it's no big deal when you get used to it as part of your playing routine.
"Good things come to those who wait".... You obviously want one! Research your many options. Be patient, buy used, get the best you can afford, one that you even enjoy just looking at... let alone listening to. You'll have it for awhile! Don't spend much on any one record. Years ago I would spend 25-50 cents ea. Classical records would be given away. Just last week @ my local CD store, Among others, I got a few living stereo's & living presence's in excellent++ cond. 99 cents ea. My local good will type store, similar..but since I bought 15 records....75 cents ea. Now go get busy!!! Enjoy
01-24-11: Stanwal BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID! Don't get into anything you have reservations about. If you don't feel deep down that analogue is the superior medium and you can't do without it stay with digital.
My personal experience is the opposite. After growing up on analog, I listened to digital exclusively for 20 years--from 1987 to 2007. Then I bought a turntable from a yard sale for $2 and even with that, I heard a continuity and musicality I wasn't getting with digital through my multi-thousand-dollar rig. I took an SACD and LP of the same recording to a high end shop to give each format a fair shake. The LP sounded lush and full; the SACD threadbare. The next day I bought a decent turntable and didn't even listen to another digital source for 8 months.
What I'm saying is you never know until you try. Some people hear and feel the difference from the beginning. Some don't. If it speaks to you, the "bother" of analog--damping, aligning, cleaning, balancing, isolating, etc.--is simply part of forming a good relationship between you and the music. If it doesn't speak to you, it won't be worth the trouble. Nobody can answer whether analog will speak to you.
For many years I ignored analog because I didn't want to get sucked back into the fussy details. Once you invest some time and attention, for a good setup, it's not really a big deal. Now I can't imagine life without analog. Playing records is one of the things that gets me out of bed and makes me look forward to the day.
You should know by now or at least have a notion that, after filtering all the bullshitters reply to your post, the post above by hotmailjbc sums it all:
education generally costs time and money. get a turntable and some records
Consider your $1500 a tuition fee. After the end of the course, you will not ask the same questions anymore and rely on people telling you what you can and what you cannot have.
Vinyl playback is simple, if you use your brain. You will see, it is not that difficult. Start with a decent system as the biggest mistake of some hobbyist like us who jumped into vinyl uninitiated was to buy a cheap table/arm and convinced themselves that it will perform magic.
BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID! Don't get into anything you have reservations about. If you don't feel deep down that analogue is the superior medium and you can't do without it stay with digital.
It is worth it, trust the majority here. Those who think that it is too much work or that if you have no LP collection it would be unwise are saying nonsense. If you mostly listen to rock, blues and acoustic music recorded quite some time ago, there is no comparison - vinyl is so much better even played on a very modest rig with the cartridge less than perfectly aligned. Problem may be the cost and effort to find records in excellent condition. If I were you I would get Rega P3 or Pro-ject Xpression new with Goldring 1042 cartridge from Needledoctor, have them align the cartridge and be done with it for a while. They would also guide you through setting up VTA, VTF etc. You don't need a vacuum machine to begin with. Good manual cleaning or that yellow spin-it thing for $79 would do. Then get a few records and see what your rig does.
The record cleaner you note is the SPINCLEAN Record Cleaner. I bought one recently and it works quite nicely. For $79.95 US it's a good value.
I have tried my own DIY vacuum system which though bulky , noisy and clunky worked good. I have tried a steam cleaner and it too worked well but again is a little noisy (when steaming) and can be messy with steam vapour settling on tables etc. I have tried DIY kitchen sink washing and that worked ok even with its mess and IMO waste of water. The Spin Clean is easy to use, quiet and not messy. It is the best setup I found short of investing into a good commercially made record vacuum machine.
For anyone who wants to take up their record care a notch above just using a brush without spending much money the Spin Clean is a good unit. For those of you here who have consumer concerns with where products are made, this cleaner is made in the USA. They could probably off shore it to China or Malaysia etc and drop the price. For me if I can't get it made in Canada it's a nice change to get a product I can easily afford made in the USA. I have nothing against any products per se made in Asia, I have many but it's just nice to get a product I like that is made in North America.
Go spend some time with someone with a good vinyl set-up and really observe what it is all about from both a logistical and enjoyment perspective. If it floats your boat and you can make the commitment then strap-in and get ready. I don't believe your initial budget is high enough to realize a better and high level of performance when you include cleaning systems, good TT, cart, phono (not sure how decent the MF is). I think $5K would get you a pretty good vinyl playback system if you were careful. Then you would be in heaven.
I LOVE having a vinyl set-up and it now is probably 95% of all the listening I do. If I couldn't have vinyl, I probably wouldn't bother with a system at all. It does not seem like a pain to me, it is just part of the routine of listening to music at this point. I recently had my phono out for upgrade and never listened to my system until I got it back.
raquel,,, you scared everybody!!!! ha. nice letter and i agree. very nice to read an expert opinion. what do you think of the sub 100 dollar record cleaner all the magazines are recommending? i don,t remember the name but it is bright yellow.
I wrote a post last night in response to your thread, but accidentally closed the tab with the response - I'll try again, because you pose good questions that many new audiophiles have:
"1. One of the biggest things that has kept me from trying Vinyl thus far is the concern of excessive hiss and crackle/pop that vinyl is known for. Is it safe to assume that purchasing new Vinyl and played on a higher quality setup will reduce (eliminate?) the pops and crackle sounds? I have no problem purchasing exclusively new vinyl, knowing full well that the process of shopping used is what draws so many to this market..."
Ticks, pops and hiss are not an issue if certain precautions are taken. First, and to directly respond to your question, new vinyl is unfortunately not always free from ticks and pops, and if you search the threads, you'll find many people complaining of noise with brand-new, $50 LP's from all of the major reissue labels. That said, most new vinyl is fine and many are completely noise-free. As for used LPs, it is pretty easy to determine which used vendors accurately rate the condition of LPs they sell, and that will eliminate most regretful purchases I tend to prefer older LPs, as many are fantastic and really cheap.
When you receive a new or used LP (and this will address another question you asked), it has to be cleaned with a vacuum record cleaner, in the case of new LPs, in order to remove the mold release agent used to prevent the LP from sticking to the matrix when it is minted (mold release functions like Pam), and in the case of used LPs, to remove whatever dirt the LP accumulated up until the time you received it. Next, careful, professional set-up is crucial to minimizing noise, particularly with some of the more modern styli types (e.g., line-contact). If you clean the record and your rig is set up properly (and in the case of used LPs, you have purchased from a reliable vendor), noise will not be an issue with most LP's. There will always be dud LP's that are simply inherently noisy, either because of a lousy pressing or because of improper care by prior owners, but the percentage of duds is about like the percentage of dud CD's that feature compressed dynamics, and glassy, unlistenable highs, among other problems. Another point about LPs and noise - it is somewhat music genre-specific. Noise is almost never an issue with rock, pop and blues albums because of the quantity of musical information in the grooves - you can't hear it once the band starts, even with dirty records. On the other hand, noise can be a real issue with solo acoustic instruments like solo piano and accapella voice. Finally, modern belt-drive turntables (and the small handful of todays very high-end direct-drive tables) have much lower noise levels than the tables most people used during the analog era. In summary, if you have a modern table that has been carefully set up and you have properly cleaned the LP, noise is not the issue just as with CDs, the quality of the recording, not the medium (whether LP or CD), becomes the issue.
2. If I purchase new vinyl, only play it on a decent player, and store it properly, will I still have to clean it? How expensive is a cleaning machine? Are there (reasonable), less expensive alternatives to a cleaning machine?
New and used vinyl must be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner as described above. The entry-level VPI vacuum cleaner, which is a good unit, now lists for $650 and you should be able to get a new one for at least 10% off the list price they occasionally appear on the used market. You should buy new record sleeves for any used LPs that you buy. Once you vacuum clean a record, it will generally not need to be vacuum-cleaned again for many playings (I might clean mine once every 25 plays), assuming you only grasp it by its edges and immediately return it to its sleeve and jacket when youre done playing it. However, before I play any side, I place a Hunt EDA carbon-fiber brush ($30) at a 45-degree angle to the side for two or three revolutions to pick up any large dust particles. I do the same after I have played the side. This is all the cleaning that is necessary. To summarize, new and used records just acquired must be cleaned with a vacuum cleaner there are no alternatives if you are running a good analog rig in a high-resolution system and thereafter can be maintained as described above.
3. Based on my integrated (tube-pre, SS amp) and speakers, are these a good match for Vinyl? Does anyone know if the KW 500 Phono input is adequate for a good turntable? My digital system has a tendency to be on the bright side for a lot of material, but not everything. Strangly, even at 31 years old, I can still hear up to around 19Khz so I'm a bit picky about the highs...
Your system is not a good match for vinyl based upon what you have written about your hearing, the brightness in your system, and your statement that I am all about soundstage and imaging, vinyl is a NECESSITY for you. First, regarding the quality of the on-board phono stage in your integrated amp, I do not have first-hand knowledge, but I do know that the more expensive Musical Fidelity gear is high-end gear the phono stage should be fine (a good stand-alone unit with proper interconnect to your integrated would be better, but youre probably fine). A properly set-up vinyl rig will generally layer space and image much better than a digital rig it is one of vinyls strong suits. That said, if you primarily listen to multitrack-recorded pop / rock / blues recordings, you will be largely wasting what vinyl can do because the staging and instrument placement is destroyed by the miking techniques and multitracking. On the other hand, well recorded classical music or acoustic jazz on a decent pressing, and again assuming proper set-up, will have you jumping from your seat and screaming Wow! One of the two big problems with typical digital is what it does to the highs it is glassy and unnatural and this will be exacerbated by your Focal speakers, which use high-quality Beryllium tweeters. I listen to mostly orchestral music, and digital is seriously flawed with orchestral because of the high-frequency harmonics coming from string sections listen to a violin through an analog rig, even a really cheap one, and then listen on a $10k digital rig vinyl sounds like a violin and digital sounds wrong and unpleasant. One caveat, however the resonances occurring in many expensive moving-coil cartridges cause a rising (i.e., excessive) response in the high frequencies that can make a system somewhat bright if not addressed (... there are ways). At your price range, however, you will likely end up with a moving-magnet cartridge that will generally not have such a problem. In summary, an audiophile who cares about high-frequency performance, unless he/she has the money to purchase a top, top digital rig, needs analog.
4. How complicated is the setup of the TT? Being that I've never worked with it before, I'm somewhat intimidated by the "setup" requirements of the equipment. What are the core requirements/knowledge to properly setup a TT.
Quite complicated - getting the most out of an analog rig requires precise, professional set-up, and most people who think they know how to properly install a table, arm and cartridge do not know what theyre doing. The best course of action is to investigate in an attempt to find the very best set-up person in your geographic area. That said, given your budget and the types of music you listen to, you are a good candidate for a Rega table with Rega cartridge. The cartridge is pre-installed and all set-up parameters automatically addressed due to the fact the cartridge is made for that particular table and arm you just need to place the table on a proper stand and make very certain that the table is precisely leveled. Regas quality is good, especially the arm, and they are particularly good for rock and pop because the cartridge is high output and a very good tracker, but it will not perform like a better table and arm, with a good moving-coil cartridge, assuming proper set up. In summary, a decent analog rig will smoke your digital rig with respect to staging and naturalness, particularly in the highs. I also prefer analog dynamics - good digital rigs have greater dynamic range than analog, but so many digital recordings are compressed that you can't use it - older LP's and properly mastered new LP's can have more satisfying dynamics. (NB: I should have noted from the outset that my comments about digital here are limited to PCM - full DSD playback has thunderous dynamics.)
5. And finally, the most subjective question of all. If I had a budget of about $1,000-$1,500 for a TT, Tonearm and Cartridge, what would be a good starting place? I'd obviously be looking for used here from Agon.
A Rega P-5 plus Rega Elys cartridge is probably $1,200 (the cheaper P-3 24 is also a good high-entry-level table), plus you need a vacuum cleaner, carbon-fiber brush, and appropriate stand for the table. If you could go up to $3k, you can get a high-end used table, excellent arm, and good moving-coil cartridge that would play in a much higher league.
All these naysayers to vinyl. The fad guy it is like breeding labordoodles do not even have a clue. When I put on a vinyl record my system has a sound that is purely awesome. My digital front end sound very very good but not even close to the awesome sound of my turntable. I was surprised the other day when I went over to friend's house who has a $25k digital front end, how good it sounded. Then we put on a record on his newly downsized turntable rig the Clearaudio Concept and matching cartridge and at $2000.00, it blew the $25K digital rig in the dirt. He had alot of regret selling his original higher end turntable and putting the money into upgrading his digital part of his system. Granted Vinyl is more work but is also more fun. I think digital will get better and it might get close to Analog but that is a way off.
Discovery in music and sound is an interesting thing. Music has the power to move us in unsuspected ways. Many on this forum (myself included) feel that a decent analog setup can bring certain qualities of musical expressiveness that elude even the best digital sources.
So, what is it that makes you (OP) curious about vinyl? Could it be that you feel that you are missing something with the sound of your current digital setup? Something is not quite satisfying? Only your own experience with the analog medium will let you determine wether the musical rewards of playing vinyl are worth the "hassles". I believe that you will find that as you live with a well setup DECENT analag setup, you will find that the rewards found in good recordings on vinyl will let you forget and ignore the imperfections. Albert is correct, ticks and pops can be elimined almost entirely; but that will probably take more money than $1500, as the quality of the gear is key. But for $1500 you can definitely put together a rig that will CLEARLY let you know what all the buzz is about. If you choose well, there is no reason that if you decide that vinyl is not for you, you would not be able to get all or most of your money back. There are so many quality vinyl reissues available that getting good pressings will not be a problem. And I would be surprised if you don't find that recordings in your cd collection that you thought you knew well, when played on vinyl all of a sudden sound a little more exciting; the grooves (no pun intended) a little deeper, and the soundstaging which you love so much more dimensional and organic, instead of airless and synthesized. You will probably find yourself listening more.
You are obviously very curious about it, go for it! Don't go nuts at first. Keep remembering that if you are smart about it you will lose very little financial investment. And even if you lose a little bit of money in the process, think about the education that you will gain. Remember, only you can decide wether it's worth it. Is it possible that so many vinyl fans are deluding themselves about it's merits? Some here would say yes, but I think it's unlikely. Good luck, and remember what a great source of info and advise this forum is.
I think that Mitch4t response is the very best I have ever read EVER!
Mitch4t :- 'Don't do it dude! Stay with digital, you will listen to a lot more music that way. Digital will continue to get better, analog now is as good as it's ever gonna get.'
I gave up on digital years ago. I had a Wadia 840 or was it a 850 and got a new laser upgrade for it etc etc.... Played it against my friends Rega P3/ Goldring 1042 turntable and honestly the Rega destroyed the Wadia in EVERY respect. No, I lie, the Wadia was easier to handle.
Really Mitch4t, if you think that analog now is as good as it's going to get, you TOTALLY under estimate audio designers and advancements in electronic signal processing. How on earth do you think CD managed to go from SH*T in the 80's to a better version of that in the 2000s.
As for CD sales - ha ha ha. Last I heard, the majors are struggling with CD sales. I'd be surprised if the format lasts another 10 years. Vinyl on the other hand is going stronger and stronger with more and more record companies pressing new material on vinyl now than in the past 5 years.
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