Considering analog...but nervous

Jump in...... With both feet! Don't look back. You'll love it. If u don't u can always sell the analog rig. Once u get vinyl in your blood, digital may or may not be tolerable.

The only time cd's are played in my home is if the kids are there and no one else is. Otherwise its vinyl 95% or ipod/computer 5%. I can get off my fat ass every 20 minutes or so to flip an album and attention deficit disorder hasnt caused me to skip from song to song.

Fatgh0st: I mean, to the point where I'm thinking about going exclusive analog in my main rig and leaving digital for the "convenience" listening elsewhere.

YES! YES!

02-23-11: Fatgh0st
Rockitman - I couldn't agree with you more. It's the naturalness in the sound that's got me hooked like a drug.
***********************************************************

It sure is a drug ! I just got my table last friday (CA Performance SE). On sunday, my basic plus phono-pre (Clearaudio) blew it's left channel. I have been w/o vinyl listening as of the writing of this note. I need a fix bad. Hopefully my replacement phono pre arrives by tomorrow. I upgraded to the CA Balance Plus.

To make matters worse, I feel like upgrading my table already. Needle Doctor has a 30 day return policy. I'm thinking of upgrading to the Magnum version (70mm platter) for the Avant Garde Magnum:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Avant-Garde-Magnum-CMB-Turntable-w-Satisfy?sc=2&category=347

or the Master Solution CMB
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Master-Solution-CMB-Turntable?sc=2&category=347

I'm gonna kill my friend for bringing my attention to the analog world...LOL !

Rockitman - I couldn't agree with you more. It's the naturalness in the sound that's got me hooked like a drug. Instruments sound like real instruments, not recorded instruments and voices sound like the singer is in the room. Digital could come close on some 24/96 material I have but at the end of the day, there isn't much 24/96 material out there that peaks my interest. On the other hand, just about every album I ever wanted is available in Vinyl and sounds as good or better than a 24/96 digital.

Analog playback = musical nirvana?

-gh0st

02-23-11: Rockitman
... My digital system is top of the line 24 bit playback capacity. I will give digital one advantage over analog...if 24 bit, then the vise like grip on the lowest octaves is tighter in digital. Where digital blows it is in the actual texture of the musical notes whether it be voice, percussion, instrumental. This tangible feel of the music is completely lost in the A/D conversion. I also feel sound stage is much deeper and wider in analog playback.

Yes-yes-yes! I've heard high end 24/96 playback at some high end audio store open houses, where 1st generation 24/96 masters are played back through insanely expensive D/A converters, line stages, amps, and speakers. I just heard such playback through a complete chain of ARC Anniversary/Signature components 2 wks ago. I can relax and enjoy 24-bit music in a way that I can't with 16/44.1, but it still only gets me 80% of the way there compared to vinyl, and in the ways you describe--texture, timbre, tangible feel, continuity and smoothness, and soundstage. Basically it comes down to how low level detail is handled, such as room ambience and the ways that sounds coming from instruments and voices start, bloom, fade, and the last room ambience decays.

These are the cues that make music musical, lush, rich, and enveloping.

Fatgh0st,

Congrats. Good thing you didn't listen to the digital naysayers. I myself took the vinyl plunge 2 weeks ago. Clearaudio: Performance SE, Satisfy Carbon arm, Talismann V2 MC cart and the Balance Plus Phono Pre. My digital system is top of the line 24 bit playback capacity. I will give digital one advantage over analog...if 24 bit, then the vise like grip on the lowest octaves is tighter in digital. Where digital blows it is in the actual texture of the musical notes whether it be voice, percussion, instrumental. This tangible feel of the music is completely lost in the A/D conversion. I also feel sound stage is much deeper and wider in analog playback.

Vinyl certainly has it's drawbacks in terms of cleanliness, surface noise pops, clicks and crackels but in the end, it doesn't matter. Nothing beats vinyl sound quality save for the studio analog master tapes. I am stilled stunned by the analog experience.

All the best and welcome to the sickness. I'm already looking at future turntable/tonearm/cart upgrades...disturbing as that is...

02-22-11: Maineiac

"As for phono stages, check out the K&K threads"

AMEN you said a mouthful....

I LOVE happy endings. Fatgh0st
you've just got a VERY GOOD education,....not to discount anything anyone has said...If you take nothing else from this thread Maineiac just gave you and admission to Grad school.

enjoy this part of the hobby it is truly gratifying
-b

Given the current trajectory and level of enthusiasm, no way Fatgh0st makes it to 2012 without upgrading.

The process of "identifying" upgrades is tantamount to deliberating about whether to acquire them.

Congrats on a fantastic cliff dive into vinyl. My prediction was for 18 months in so, although we already hit the over, it would be fun to know where things will stand come the fall of 2012. As for phono stages, check out the K&K threads.

Most places will take back new vinyl that has problems, yes, but always pay with a card so you can do a chargeback if your seller tries to make you pay for defective merchandise (the law is on your side in most states, but practically speaking, you're not going enforce rights over a transaction of such small value).

Yeah, you can get a superb phono stage and cartridge for a combined $5k!

Colleagues snickering about the analog rig - take pity on the great unwashed and try to educate.

Haha...yea, most of my friends think I'm nuts. Omiting the price, I've mentioned it to a few people who either thought I was loopy or was like "oh, my dad just got a USB turntable that can convert it to DVD!", but said in a way that they're trying to one-up my recent record player since digital is clearly superior to vinyl :-)

I think for a second about explaining how it really is, but then I just feel sorry for them and let it be :-). They are happy in their thoughts and any attempt at explaining the truth is wasted breath.

I have a few others who are eager to come over and hear what a real TT setup actually sounds like, so that should be intersting. Maybe convert a few skeptics???

And then there's one of my co-workers who mutters "snap, crackle, pop" every time I walk past his office. I should also mention that he owns Bose equipment which basically discredits any opinion he has anyway :-)

.
'Gh0st......Don't worry about the bread you're spending on equipment. Pretty much all of it is recoverable and you will enjoy the ride along the way. Most of us have taken a similar plunge such as yours. Don't get too hung up on the equipment and upgrades and forget to enjoy the music. Don't over-analyze while listening...just go with it. If you start to over-analyze, you'll wake up $10k-$20k later wondering how you got there. This whole thing is a journey that will never end, if you know that going in, you'll have a blast along the way.

As for your quest for a dedicated phono preamp. Just keep your eye on this forum and continue to post your questions and ideas. You'll continue to get lots of responses that you can sort through that will help you make an informed decision in the direction that you want to take.
$4-5k will get you an outstanding phono preamp, but I believe you can get an excellent phono preamp for half that amount. Buy used if you can, you will be able to try out several units that you can immediately re-sell with little or no loss if you don't like it or if you simply want to try another flavor.

Now start to figure out how to explain to friends how you dropped $6k on a record player. I'm laughing already at their faces of disbelief.
.

Mitch4t: LOL! I had forgotten about the prediction. Maineiac definitely knows the culture I suppose :-)

I've already identified my upgrade, just going to wait a while to do it. The next step will be to upgrade to a mid-grade LOMC cart and a dedicated phono input stage (something considerably better than my KW. I'm expecting I'll need a $4-5k budget for these items. Does that sound about right?

This will likely be a 2012 project, but for now I'm just loving listening to all my new LPs in all their sonic and musical splendor!

I do agree with those who said that new vinyl is definitely hit or miss. What's the general policy on returning new vinyl if it's noisy/defective? For example, I purchased 'The Verve - Urban Hymns' new from Amazon and for the first 15 seconds of 'The Drugs Don't Work' (which happens to be one of my favorite tracks) there is an incredibly loud popping sound at every rotation. It goes for about 10 pops or so and then stops. Not just like a dust particle pop, but one that is substantially louder than the music itself, to the point where it sounds like something is wrong with the system. I don't see any scratches or anything at that position on the record, but I've cleaned it a few times to no avail.

Will most places return/exchange in a situation like this?

-gh0st

.
Maineiac, you were dead-on with your prediction:

01-25-11: Maineiac
Anybody want to do a side bet on the total money he has into vinyl playback (not software) in 18 months? I say the over/under is $5K and I would take the over.

The OP is in for $6k to start, after hoping to get in for $1000 - $1500.

Now, let's see how long he can stand pat with his initial vinyl rig before an upgrade.
.

Fatgh0st,
Congratulations and thanks for the follow up. Yours is a great story. This has been an interesting thread considering the range of early responses. Others are correct when they tell you that it's easy to get hooked and lost in the expense of it all. It sounds like you have a very good analog front end that will give you much listening pleasure. Now, just invite your young friends over for a listen/conversion because this industry needs some young enthusiasts to carry it along.

I say keep the digital for background and don't give up your collection. I play CDs about 5% of the time when I have a party and want background music. You can also demo the system to your friends using their own familiar CDs and then blow them away with the vinyl. Well done.

02-20-11: T_bone
Congrats. You jumped in waaaay deep first time in. But if you like it that much, you've got something going. Warning - as Mitch4t suggests it is a sickness of sorts. I'd hold off on getting rid of the digital. You have a lot invested in the music and buying it again on vinyl would seem a waste of resources. There is no reason why you cannot enjoy your digital as much as you did a month ago.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm coming up on my 4th anniversary of getting a turntable after 2 decades of digital only. After I got my turntable I didn't listen to *any* digitally sourced music for 8 months. Four years later the only digital music I listen to is on my iPod Classic at work to drown out office noise.

My iPod is filled with Apple Lossless rips of my CD collection, so yeah, I'm glad I didn't get rid of it. But with all my records now, I take little to no pleasure in listening to music from CDs unless my primary attention is focused somewhere else.

I'm not saying this is what it'll do to everybody; it just did it to me.

Congrats. You jumped in waaaay deep first time in. But if you like it that much, you've got something going. Warning - as Mitch4t suggests it is a sickness of sorts. I'd hold off on getting rid of the digital. You have a lot invested in the music and buying it again on vinyl would seem a waste of resources. There is no reason why you cannot enjoy your digital as much as you did a month ago.

.
Congrats on your analog acquisitions.

Now that you've taken the analog plunge......let me tell you about reel to reel......

Beware, it never ends.
.

For the sake of all those who responded to this post, and for those who find themselves in my position down the road, I figured I would write a followup.

Suffice it to say, my original budget of $1,500 was doubled and then doubled again before I was done, but the end result is astounding! I ended up going with the VPI Classic turntable (new) which came with the JMW 10.5i tonearm. I also purchased the HRX Center weight and the periphery ring clamp. I opted to go with the Dynavector 20x2-H cartridge (to mate with my MM phono input on the KW500).

Then to top it off, I got the dustcover, carbon fiber brush, VPI 16.5 record cleaner, solution, stylus brush and isolpads. I spent about $1,200 on LPs to get the collection jump-started.

NOTE: Due to a mis-communication with my VPI dealer, I did have the 20x2-L mounted for a few days and it sounded a little better, but due to the gain mismatch, I had to crank the amp WAY up to the point where there was too much noise so it was swapped for the HO version)

So, in the end, I have a sound that I never imagined possible without major component upgrades in my digital front-end or speakers (and by major, I mean at least 3-4x what I spent on the analog front-end) . Soundstage is wider and deeper, tonal accuracy is dead-on and imaging is extremely precise. Vocals sing like nothing I've EVER heard in digital before....and all of this is with a moderate Analog setup...not a $25k high-end rig!

Now, I suppose it would be easy to say that my digital front end was inferior, but the Modwright Transporter is considered a pretty decent digital front-end by most standards and this rig flat-out smokes it. I mean, to the point where I'm thinking about going exclusive analog in my main rig and leaving digital for the "convenience" listening elsewhere. The modwright is definitely going up for sale...jury is still out on whether I keep the stock transporter or not...

The record cleaning is a bit time consuming, but I've gotten the hang of it and once I get in the groove, it won't be a big deal at all.

As for background noise, it's a non-issue. For the new LPs I've bought that have been immediately vacuum cleaned on the 16.5 and then brushed before/after every play, they are virtually silent, even between tracks. For the used LPs I've bought, they are a bit noisy between tracks but once cleaned and brushed, the surface noise is virtually inaudible during playback.

Thanks again to EVERYONE who helped me get through this (special thanks to Raquel for the added offline help). I can honestly say to anyone from my generation (I was born in '79) who more-or-less grew up on cassettes and CDs, there is nothing quite like vinyl if you've got the funding and the system to back it up. If you love music and you love good sound, it's not a matter of "if" but rather "when" and "how".

-gh0st

02-07-11: Jyprez
...Second, vinyl is for those who want to collect records from the golden era of vinyl. If you are only going to buy post digital era reissues, then stick with that as they will give you the same sound without the inconvenience.

Not in my experience. Yes, my first preference is vinyl with an all-analog chain, but I still like 24/88.2, 24/96, and 24/192 digital recordings made into LPs much better than CDs dithered down to 16/44.1. With the LP of a digital recording, you get an analog conversion at the resolution of the original recording (e.g., 24/96), run through a very expensive pro-quality (think $20K+ or so) DAC to cut the lacquer master. With CD, it's converted to 16/44.1 and you play this lower-resolution approximation through a consumer-grade DAC. Not even close.

Also, I have probably 1500 LPs, most of which I collected within a year or two, mostly from dollar bins and thrift shops. I haven't needed an expensive record cleaner (though I admit it would be convenient). I use record cleaning fluid concocted at a local used record store and use those microfiber terry towels with 90,000 fibers per square inch to do the scrubbing and drying. If I need deeper cleaning I use a $25 handheld high pressure steamer.

Jyprez, you exaggerate the issue, don't scare the man off. Just let him figure it out.

My advice - don't go there. First, without a really good cleaning device, you will not be happy with the noise (but with a nice investment of 1000+ in record cleaning you will not experience any/much noise). Second, vinyl is for those who want to collect records from the golden era of vinyl. If you are only going to buy post digital era reissues, then stick with that as they will give you the same sound without the inconvenience. If, on the other hand, you lust after an original 1952 Blue note w42nd st in mint condition for several hundred $, then by all means, go for the vinyl.

02-01-11: Fatgh0st
Morgenholz: And this VERY fact is precisely what I've become excited about the most throughout this past week. It started out as a quest to get new sound, but evolved into the quest for new sound AND forging a new, better relationship with the music I already love.

I have had more transcendental experiences playing vinyl in the past four years (when I set up a vinyl rig) than the previous 20 years of CD-only listening. I thought I was getting too old (mid-50s) to really enjoy music. That was not the case. I had simply lost my patience with trying to feel the music from a red book source.

I've recently played fresh LP versions of music I've known for decades that move me to emotional responses I never had with that music before. In fact, it happens pretty often now. I don't just hear the music, I hear how the music was made. I sense the effort and artistry behind the song and performance, and therein lies the artist-to-listener connection.

Chill out!!

gh0st, I could NOT love music without my LPs. A second, non-aural benefit is enjoying the jacket art and recording information in human-scale font. Nothing beats a great recording WITH a great piece of art. Last night, I played a pristine copy of Martin Denny's original Exotica in mono whilst staring at "exotica girl" cover model Sandy Warner. A Mai Tai would have made that moment perfect, and yes, I do have a life, with my own exotica girl, otherwise.

Morgenholz: And this VERY fact is precisely what I've become excited about the most throughout this past week. It started out as a quest to get new sound, but evolved into the quest for new sound AND forging a new, better relationship with the music I already love.

-gh0st

Les_creative_edge already summed it up on 1/24. I often reason that if I had it all to do over, I might settle on a good all-tube system and CDs, and just listen to the music. However, the message is in the medium: The LP forces me to focus on a side at a time, as the artist and producer intended, and prevents me from skipping through what I don't think I want to hear, or from walking away to "multitask," because I need to be there at lead-out time. I play CDs; I listen to LPs.

So, thanks to all the wonderful responses I received through this post, many hours of research, and a few hours in various different listening rooms, I have decided to move forward.

After a major budget inflation (didn't someone predict this???), I have decided to purchase new and move forward with a VPI Classic TT and Dynavector 20XH cartridge (although the cart is not 100% locked in).

However, now I find myself wondering if I shouldn't be focusing on the phono input on my Musical Fidelity KW-500 and whether or not I shouldn't replace that at the same time.

I'm starting another post specifically for this discussion.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed. You've made the process that much easier.

-gh0st

First new/used does not matter. There is no hiss/pop/crackle in vinyl done right! Second, if your scared or nerves look elsewhere. Third, the mussic you listen too does not matter it is ALL available in vinyl. Forth and finally but not least, vinyl is more then a hobby, vinyl is a commitment. It is like a marrage, you never stop paying for it. It is a way of life a type of obsession. It is not like digital, play and forget. You have to be involved. You do not listen to one or 2 songs on an album an move on. You listen to one sides at a time. You listen. Not to instrument placement or volcal accuracy or even seperation, you listen to music. Rock, pop, jazz, classical, country, rega, indie, it is all here and it does not matter which. Just that you love music and you are looking/willing to listen!

Your description of the second audition sounds like the symptoms typical of an overdamped room. Having a dozen other loudspeakers in the room, especially a small one, would act like tonesuckers, absorbing the low level detail that made the first presentation so appealing. Given that Pro-Ject makes the Music Hall turntables, and that they share same/similar tonearms, the differences you heard *may* be room-related. Could also be everything else--cables, warmup time, component selection, even the cartridge setups themselves.

Remember you auditioned vinyl on totally different systems, so whatever you heard different or liked or not, there was more to it than just vinyl playing in place of CD.

Wow...based on their appearance, I just assumed. I'd never actually heard a true Electrostat before so I suppose I still haven't! They sounded very nice though...

-gh0st

fwiw, Vandersteens are not electrostats, or panels of any kind. Conventional dynamic drivers in an unconventional "boxless" design..

Vandy's are dynamic (cone) loudspeakers, not electrostatics. But they use simple first-order crossovers that are well implemented - very good speakers.

It's impossible to say what you were hearing, as you were listening to two unfamiliar systems in unfamiliar venues. The second system was obviously a lousy set up (a room full of equipment that was, in addition, almost certainly overdamped, based upon your description).

If you want to know what a turntable sounds like, I would see if Dave Lewis Audio or Overture currently has a high-end table set up on premises. Overture is a serious shop by current standards, but I don't know if they really know what they're doing with analog or give a shit (most places don't and don't). Dave Serota (Dave Lewis Audio), on the other hand, is a committed two-channel guy with some very serious analog clients - my guess is that his shop is where you would be most likely to get good exposure. Some people think he's a dick - he's been great with me, but I've been a customer.

OK, so I went to two different retailers today in the area and listened to two different tables. Needless to say, I'm in love :-). The sound is so much more natural than the digital I'm used to and guess what...the surface noise didn't bother me a bit. I listened to some new Vinyl that I picked up before I went out listening, and I listened to some old Vinyl (including a 1961 signed copy of Brubeck's Time Out that one of the reps had there). While the surface noise was certainly noticeable, I was instantly overtaken by the music and the sound and it didn't bother me a bit.

The first setup I listened to was a Pro-Ject 2 Xperience with the Pro-ject 9cc arm and a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 HO MC cartridge. It was hooked up to an Audio Research Vsi60 Tube Integrated Amp and a pair of Vandersteens (can't remember the model). The sound was very alive and well placed. My only concern was that Electrostats also have a very different sound than my speakers so it's hard to say how big of an impact they made. The biggest standout for me was the incredibly accurate tonality in the instruments.

Music listened to on the Pro-Ject:

Ray Lamontagne - Trouble (Trouble, Jolene)
Nirvana - Unplugged in New York (Man Who Sold the World)
Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man)
Steely Dan - Aja (Black Cow)
Dave Brubeck - Time Out / Take Five (Blue Ronda a la Turk)

My next stop was to listen to the Music Hall MMF5.1SE. This unit had a Pro-Ject arm on it and a Goldring MM Cart. The setup was entirely different. McIntosh Pre, McIntosh Amp and (exceptionally large) DynAudio speakers. The room was extremely cramped (at least 12 pairs of other speakers in the room, along with other equipment racks) and a much smaller space than the first place in general. The room was heavily treated with sound panels on the walls and ceiling and Bass Traps in the rear corners. This system sounded much "tighter" and less appealing. To be honest, it sounded more like the digital sound that I'm used to. Not quite as edgy, but not nearly as open and easy to just sit back and absorb.

Music Listened to on the Music Hall

Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man)
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (Money for Nothing)

So beetween the two, my nod goes 100% to the Pro-Ject. However, I couldn't help but wonder if the supporting components/rooms were causing a big difference. Does the sound that I describe and the differences sound more like the different speakers' signatures than the TTs?

I really liked the sound of that Pro-Ject and I want to think that it's what I can expect from a table of that caliber or higher, but I'd hate to get one, bring it home, and end up with the sound that was similar to the MH that I heard as I was not nearly as impressed (although it was still nice) since my current speakers are more similar to that of the DynAudios than the Vandersteens...

I sure hope this venture isn't going to cost me a new pair of speakers as well!

As always, any responses/opinions are greatly appreciated.

-gh0st

Don't do it if its going to stress you out.

Unless there are old vinyl recordings you must experience (yes, there are some good and unique things worth experiencing from the golden age of vinyl), its not worth it these days. Better to max out the performance of what you have first.

Don't do it you might get hooked and like it and then we will have another compeditor looking for LP's. Ha! Ha!

Calm down its only LP.

I would absolutely get a vpi scout before a Music Hall anything if I was getting my first table. the arm that comes with the scout is superior and its resale value if you trade up is likely better. There are a lot of scouts out there used from people who are trading up.

That said, if you are going to spend the entire 2500, I would get the VPI Classic. Its about as plug and play as you can get, and has gotten great reviews from everyone who has heard it. I dont own one, since I tend towards suspended tables like Oracle and Sota, but the VPI is a decent product for the price.

You could pick up a very nice Sota Sapphire for that price, factory rebuilt or even a Star from a private seller. The Star adds a vacuum platter, which I find to be very effective.
But I wouldnt get the MMF or Denon.

FatGhost:

Viridian is correct regarding the Music Hall (he is also absolutely correct in the other thread regarding the unimportance of primary resonance, which is usually irrelevant because of the low rumble of modern tables - arm/cartridge resonance is the issue, and it's totally unpredictable until an actual arm/cartridge combo is tried - but that exceeds the scope of your thread).

If I were you, I would buy a used VPI and then drive it to Soundsmith (Peter Ledermann) in Peekskill, New York (about 2.5 hours from Philly), for set up on a Saturday, and then pick it up the next Saturday - he might be able to do it all the same day, but you'd obviously have to ask. He'd probably charge you $100-$125. Peter uses VPI tables and he makes VPI's cartridges (he can mount any cartridge you buy - I just mention this for you to understand who this guy is). Except for maybe Frank Schroeder, no one knows more about analog then Peter.

My thought was that I would purchase the Music Hall for the sake of getting it into my listening room with a no obligation return policy. I'll pick up a few LPs of my favorite albums and give them a spin. Assuming I like the analog sound with my components and room, I can return it and purchase something more long-term here from Agon.

I have been watching the ads here at Agon and the VPI tables were of interest, but someone mentioned that their setup is a bit finicky for the beginner...

Thoughts?

Hey Fatghost,

I say go for it. I just did. I should have my analog set up in the next two weeks.

In your original post you mention that your digital tends to be on the bright side on some material. Well that could be your digital source but mostly it is the digital software. I run into the same problem with some cd's on my DCS Puccini which I think is a great digital source and many agree with me. The issue isn't so much my player as it is what is being played.

Here is an example. I like Van Halen. Notice I said like not love but they can be very entertaining to listen to when in the mood. I have all of their CD's and most are so bright and compressed that it is not worth listening to. (Same goes for U2. UGGGGGH!) I recently did a direct comparison of 1984 on CD to STOCK LP and the LP is so much better. There is good digital out now but it is much more difficult to get audiophile or even higher quality ROCK recordings in digital versus LP.

PS. It is possible to get quiet vinyl. My dealer has a Monk cleaner and I can tell you that vinyl played back after a cleaning is so quiet you would swear it was digital until the music starts. :) I would ask the veteran analog guru's for advice on what to use. The Monk units are quite expensive.

Current recently listed tables for sale here are: a Garrard 301 complete...Oracle complete, etc. in your relative price range. I suppose it's a given that you have checked the ads here.

My feeling is that something like a mint VPI Scoutmaster or entry-level Basis, purchased used, would be a better route, particularly because they can be upgraded. In addition, both can take a really high-end arm and cartridge (and the arms that come with each are good arms). The Music Hall and Denon have defined performance ceilings and are more in the style of the Rega tables, i.e., plug and play.

So, I'm heading out to the local HiFi store tomorrow and I'm going to listen to a few TTs. Namely, the Music Hall MMF5.1SE and the Denon Special Edition. I will probably end up purchasing the MMF5.1 as I have 30 days to play with it in home with a full refund if I don't like it.

Any thoughts on this particular Music Hall table? Anyone with any experience with the Denon? $2,500 for a Denon seems high from what I've seen, but then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about :-)

-gh0st

Racquel, you are so spot on with your posts, it's scary. Scary good. Thanks for being here.

If you're willing to drive, you're welcome to hear my rig - I live about an hour north of Manhattan. But you would have to wait a bit, as my cartridge is in the shop (that's poetic justice, is it not?!).

So that begs the question, is there anyone in the Philadelphia area that would be interested in meeting or helping me get acclimated? I realize that meetings are not everyones thing, but I figure it's worth throwing it out there :-)

-gh0st