Thanks to all for their brutal honesty. I may shelve the idea again until the "urge" returns (which it inevitably will). At least I have more opinion to move forward with.
But I cannot leave without just saying to Lindisfarne...how little minded your statement was. Clearly, someone has p!ssed you off one too many times (perhaps me?) and it shows. Just becuase I enjoy soundstage and imaging and generally enjoy music from audiophile labels does not mean I don't enjoy music as a whole. As a matter of fact, I have found copious amounts of amazing MUSIC through audiophile and independent labels, that I would have otherwise never found by sticking to mainstream labels.
I listen to plenty of other music under non-critical listening situations (and will also play mainstream labels on my main rig if they are recorded well). I am a music fan at heart, but am hindered by the sheer fact that most modern, mainstream music is not cared for properly at the engineering/mastering stage and thus sounds mediocre (at best, sometimes unbareable) on a highly-resolving system. These types of recording tend to sound MUCH better on a standard playback system that wasn't specifically tailored around resolving EVERY little detail.
At the end of the day, if I could block out the imperfections in the recordings and suppress the desire to enjoy soundstage and imaging, I wouldn't even be here on this site. I'd be happy with a $300 hose wave radio (sorry, had to throw a jab at Bose) and a stack of CDs. Unfortunately, neither of the above are possible for my ears and listening. Still yet, it means nothing toward my joy of music and the art.
So please, keep your condescending comments to yourself and if you have nothing of value to contribute, just pass the thread by.
To everyone else who contributed with genuine substance, thanks again!
-gh0st |
Wow...wonderful responses. Despite my initial reaction to the first wave of posts, and in the words of Michael Corleone himself "Just when I thought I was out....they pull me back in" :-)
So I think the final decision is that I'm going to give it a shot and if it doesn't work, so be it. I don't know anyone with a good analog setup in the area and even if I did, the odds that they have a high-end digital setup in the same room on the same path of equipment (pre and amp) is probably slim-to-none. Most of (make that ALL of) my peers are digital people (my generation...I know...) and while many of them love music, none of them appreciate the sound quality.
Going to a HiFi store to hear it is always misleading. The only high-end place around here that sells Turntables (that I'm aware of, anyway) is a store called Overture and if I go there to listen, it's going to be on $30k Wilson speakers and $50k worth of amps and cables...a far cry from my system here at home.
For $1,500, I'll take the plunge and if it doesn't suit my fancy, I'll just put it back up and resell it again.
I used to LOVE going to CD stores to buy used CDs cheap but sadly, they've all closed down. The only decent joint nearby is the Princeton Record Exchange (www.prex.com) which is about 1 hour from where I live. It just so happens that they have a MASSIVE Vinyl selection as well (about 60,000 LPs). I used to go there once or twice a year to stock up on CDs, but now I'll have another reason to keep going.
As far as the cleaning/preparation rituals, that part doesn't bother me at all. When I go downstairs to listen...it's all about sitting down with the music and listening...Picking out the LP and wiping it down, then flipping sides when it's over sounds kinda fun actually.
So, now that the decision to move is out of the way, I need to focus on my specific purchase :-). a few people have thrown around the Rega P-3 and P-5 models as suggestions. I'm really keen on going used because I really feel I can just get that much more for my money by going that route. Having said that, I don't want to lose out because of an improper setup. I also don't see any Rega P-5 for sale currently on Agon so perhaps I'll just keep my eye out.
Any opinions on the VPI Scout as a good starting point? There's one for sale at http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1300589670&/VPI-Scout-/-Rega-700-Sumiko-Bl that looks intriguing...
And another question, the whole MM vs MC...I know this is a topic of huge debate, but does it matter that I match to my phono input on my preamp (which happens to be an MM)?
Thanks again everyone, you're responses have been very insightful (and have started getting me really excited about moving in this direction). With smoe more research, a little luck and a few months time, I should hopefully be spinning black discs alongside my silver ones :-)
-gh0st |
Raquel: Firstly, thanks for the lengthy and incredibly detailed response :-).
You mentioned that you didn't think my current equipment was a "very good" match to Vinyl. However, you continue to describe my setup in a positive light so I was just a bit confused and wondered if you could elaborate a bit more on your thoughts. Do you have concerns about my speakers being too bright or were you simply suggesting that my equipment is probably more tailored toward a good Vinyl front-end rather than the digital that I have now?
Just curious really...
-gh0st |
Maineiac: You may be getting closer already :-) I've already started thinking about how I can edge my initial budget up closer to $2,500 by getting rid of something else.
So tell me, what does an extra $1,000 (from $1,500 to $2,500) open up for me in terms of options? Should I still just stick to the $1,500 for starters?
-gh0st |
Raquel: Ironically, I had moved my entire room around and placed the speakers on the long wall for about 1 year (after my original post from way back). The soundstaging was absolutely better, however I had a serious dilemma. My listening room doubles as a dedicated home theater with a 100" screen. Sitting only 9' of a 100" screen was just too darn close and it made for terrible seating for everyone except me :-) during movies.
Anyway, I recently switched everything back again and I'm back to the short wall again. The imaging has suffered, but it's not terrible. Deep, just not exceptionally wide. I know what you mean by the tunnel effect though... Unfortunately, it's all I have to work with right now. With 3 children under 6 years old, my placement options are limited (dedicated room only) and I've only been granted one room for dedicated A/V by my better half (can't say I can really argue).
In about 5 years, we are planning to put an addition to the back of the house and in that addition will be a dedicated, 2 channel listening room built to spec (this has already been negotiated :-)). But until then, I have to deal with the 11.5" wide room that I have :-(
Right now, the speakears (center of woofer) are about 2.5' from each side wall and 3.5' from the back wall. I then sit about 7' from the front of them. Ideally, I'd like to have enough width to have 3.5' on each side, 5.5' from the back and sit about 8-10' back.
-gh0st |
Maineiac: I will certainly keep you posted once I shore up my plans (should be in the next few weeks).
I've had a Transporter as my digital front end for about 2 years and recently bought the Modwright Transporter (2 weeks ago) here from Agon. I need to sell one of them, and the proceeds will be going directly to a TT setup. The question now is, which do I sell.
One of the nice thing with the Transporter and Squeezebox setups, is that you can synchronize the same song between two units down to the millisecond...it's literally perfect. So for testing, I ran my MW Transporter into one input on my preamp and the stock Transporter into another input, and then started a song. I could then flip back and forth between units with literally NO interuption in the music. It's about the best A/B test scenario you could ever get.
Anyway, last night I sat down and had my wife help me by doing it blind. I didn't know which one I was source I was starting each song with and then she would change them multiple times throughout the song and I would have to pick which one sounded better. I was hoping that I would fail the test miserably, thereby negating my need for the more expensive Modwright transporter which would equal more dollars for my TT setup. Unfortunately (for my TT funds) I passed the test everytime and was able to identify the Modwright Transporter every time as the better "sounding" unit.
Anyway, sorry to ramble...I'm just really excited about it now though. Sometimes, getting past that initial decision is all you need. I spent about an hour last night researching LPs and finding my favorite albums and seeing what they cost (new). It's amazing how expensive some of the new vinyl is (as many have suggested in this thread) but there's also some good stuff that's affordable. An example is Willie Nelson - Stardust. One of my all-time favorite albums. It sounded excellent on SACD, but sounds dry on Redbook CD. I have to think the Vinyl of this baby would absolutely sail. Looks like I can pick it up used for about $20 which is more than reasonable...
-gh0st
Anyway |
So is there a dedicated site somewhere that user's can rate the SQ of LPs (by catalog number) to help take some of the guesswork out (similar to sa-cd.net for SACDs)? Or is it all through forums and such?
-gh0st |
Dan_ed: My listening room is in a basement so I'm assuming non-suspended would be just fine. Would you concur?
-gh0st |
So that begs the question, is there anyone in the Philadelphia area that would be interested in meeting or helping me get acclimated? I realize that meetings are not everyones thing, but I figure it's worth throwing it out there :-)
-gh0st |
So, I'm heading out to the local HiFi store tomorrow and I'm going to listen to a few TTs. Namely, the Music Hall MMF5.1SE and the Denon Special Edition. I will probably end up purchasing the MMF5.1 as I have 30 days to play with it in home with a full refund if I don't like it.
Any thoughts on this particular Music Hall table? Anyone with any experience with the Denon? $2,500 for a Denon seems high from what I've seen, but then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about :-)
-gh0st |
My thought was that I would purchase the Music Hall for the sake of getting it into my listening room with a no obligation return policy. I'll pick up a few LPs of my favorite albums and give them a spin. Assuming I like the analog sound with my components and room, I can return it and purchase something more long-term here from Agon.
I have been watching the ads here at Agon and the VPI tables were of interest, but someone mentioned that their setup is a bit finicky for the beginner...
Thoughts? |
OK, so I went to two different retailers today in the area and listened to two different tables. Needless to say, I'm in love :-). The sound is so much more natural than the digital I'm used to and guess what...the surface noise didn't bother me a bit. I listened to some new Vinyl that I picked up before I went out listening, and I listened to some old Vinyl (including a 1961 signed copy of Brubeck's Time Out that one of the reps had there). While the surface noise was certainly noticeable, I was instantly overtaken by the music and the sound and it didn't bother me a bit.
The first setup I listened to was a Pro-Ject 2 Xperience with the Pro-ject 9cc arm and a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 HO MC cartridge. It was hooked up to an Audio Research Vsi60 Tube Integrated Amp and a pair of Vandersteens (can't remember the model). The sound was very alive and well placed. My only concern was that Electrostats also have a very different sound than my speakers so it's hard to say how big of an impact they made. The biggest standout for me was the incredibly accurate tonality in the instruments.
Music listened to on the Pro-Ject:
Ray Lamontagne - Trouble (Trouble, Jolene)
Nirvana - Unplugged in New York (Man Who Sold the World)
Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man)
Steely Dan - Aja (Black Cow)
Dave Brubeck - Time Out / Take Five (Blue Ronda a la Turk)
My next stop was to listen to the Music Hall MMF5.1SE. This unit had a Pro-Ject arm on it and a Goldring MM Cart. The setup was entirely different. McIntosh Pre, McIntosh Amp and (exceptionally large) DynAudio speakers. The room was extremely cramped (at least 12 pairs of other speakers in the room, along with other equipment racks) and a much smaller space than the first place in general. The room was heavily treated with sound panels on the walls and ceiling and Bass Traps in the rear corners. This system sounded much "tighter" and less appealing. To be honest, it sounded more like the digital sound that I'm used to. Not quite as edgy, but not nearly as open and easy to just sit back and absorb.
Music Listened to on the Music Hall
Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man)
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (Money for Nothing)
So beetween the two, my nod goes 100% to the Pro-Ject. However, I couldn't help but wonder if the supporting components/rooms were causing a big difference. Does the sound that I describe and the differences sound more like the different speakers' signatures than the TTs?
I really liked the sound of that Pro-Ject and I want to think that it's what I can expect from a table of that caliber or higher, but I'd hate to get one, bring it home, and end up with the sound that was similar to the MH that I heard as I was not nearly as impressed (although it was still nice) since my current speakers are more similar to that of the DynAudios than the Vandersteens...
I sure hope this venture isn't going to cost me a new pair of speakers as well!
As always, any responses/opinions are greatly appreciated.
-gh0st |
Wow...based on their appearance, I just assumed. I'd never actually heard a true Electrostat before so I suppose I still haven't! They sounded very nice though...
-gh0st |
So, thanks to all the wonderful responses I received through this post, many hours of research, and a few hours in various different listening rooms, I have decided to move forward.
After a major budget inflation (didn't someone predict this???), I have decided to purchase new and move forward with a VPI Classic TT and Dynavector 20XH cartridge (although the cart is not 100% locked in).
However, now I find myself wondering if I shouldn't be focusing on the phono input on my Musical Fidelity KW-500 and whether or not I shouldn't replace that at the same time.
I'm starting another post specifically for this discussion.
Thanks again to everyone who contributed. You've made the process that much easier.
-gh0st |
Morgenholz: And this VERY fact is precisely what I've become excited about the most throughout this past week. It started out as a quest to get new sound, but evolved into the quest for new sound AND forging a new, better relationship with the music I already love.
-gh0st |
For the sake of all those who responded to this post, and for those who find themselves in my position down the road, I figured I would write a followup.
Suffice it to say, my original budget of $1,500 was doubled and then doubled again before I was done, but the end result is astounding! I ended up going with the VPI Classic turntable (new) which came with the JMW 10.5i tonearm. I also purchased the HRX Center weight and the periphery ring clamp. I opted to go with the Dynavector 20x2-H cartridge (to mate with my MM phono input on the KW500).
Then to top it off, I got the dustcover, carbon fiber brush, VPI 16.5 record cleaner, solution, stylus brush and isolpads. I spent about $1,200 on LPs to get the collection jump-started.
NOTE: Due to a mis-communication with my VPI dealer, I did have the 20x2-L mounted for a few days and it sounded a little better, but due to the gain mismatch, I had to crank the amp WAY up to the point where there was too much noise so it was swapped for the HO version)
So, in the end, I have a sound that I never imagined possible without major component upgrades in my digital front-end or speakers (and by major, I mean at least 3-4x what I spent on the analog front-end) . Soundstage is wider and deeper, tonal accuracy is dead-on and imaging is extremely precise. Vocals sing like nothing I've EVER heard in digital before....and all of this is with a moderate Analog setup...not a $25k high-end rig!
Now, I suppose it would be easy to say that my digital front end was inferior, but the Modwright Transporter is considered a pretty decent digital front-end by most standards and this rig flat-out smokes it. I mean, to the point where I'm thinking about going exclusive analog in my main rig and leaving digital for the "convenience" listening elsewhere. The modwright is definitely going up for sale...jury is still out on whether I keep the stock transporter or not...
The record cleaning is a bit time consuming, but I've gotten the hang of it and once I get in the groove, it won't be a big deal at all.
As for background noise, it's a non-issue. For the new LPs I've bought that have been immediately vacuum cleaned on the 16.5 and then brushed before/after every play, they are virtually silent, even between tracks. For the used LPs I've bought, they are a bit noisy between tracks but once cleaned and brushed, the surface noise is virtually inaudible during playback.
Thanks again to EVERYONE who helped me get through this (special thanks to Raquel for the added offline help). I can honestly say to anyone from my generation (I was born in '79) who more-or-less grew up on cassettes and CDs, there is nothing quite like vinyl if you've got the funding and the system to back it up. If you love music and you love good sound, it's not a matter of "if" but rather "when" and "how".
-gh0st |
Mitch4t: LOL! I had forgotten about the prediction. Maineiac definitely knows the culture I suppose :-)
I've already identified my upgrade, just going to wait a while to do it. The next step will be to upgrade to a mid-grade LOMC cart and a dedicated phono input stage (something considerably better than my KW. I'm expecting I'll need a $4-5k budget for these items. Does that sound about right?
This will likely be a 2012 project, but for now I'm just loving listening to all my new LPs in all their sonic and musical splendor!
I do agree with those who said that new vinyl is definitely hit or miss. What's the general policy on returning new vinyl if it's noisy/defective? For example, I purchased 'The Verve - Urban Hymns' new from Amazon and for the first 15 seconds of 'The Drugs Don't Work' (which happens to be one of my favorite tracks) there is an incredibly loud popping sound at every rotation. It goes for about 10 pops or so and then stops. Not just like a dust particle pop, but one that is substantially louder than the music itself, to the point where it sounds like something is wrong with the system. I don't see any scratches or anything at that position on the record, but I've cleaned it a few times to no avail.
Will most places return/exchange in a situation like this?
-gh0st |
Haha...yea, most of my friends think I'm nuts. Omiting the price, I've mentioned it to a few people who either thought I was loopy or was like "oh, my dad just got a USB turntable that can convert it to DVD!", but said in a way that they're trying to one-up my recent record player since digital is clearly superior to vinyl :-)
I think for a second about explaining how it really is, but then I just feel sorry for them and let it be :-). They are happy in their thoughts and any attempt at explaining the truth is wasted breath.
I have a few others who are eager to come over and hear what a real TT setup actually sounds like, so that should be intersting. Maybe convert a few skeptics???
And then there's one of my co-workers who mutters "snap, crackle, pop" every time I walk past his office. I should also mention that he owns Bose equipment which basically discredits any opinion he has anyway :-) |
Rockitman - I couldn't agree with you more. It's the naturalness in the sound that's got me hooked like a drug. Instruments sound like real instruments, not recorded instruments and voices sound like the singer is in the room. Digital could come close on some 24/96 material I have but at the end of the day, there isn't much 24/96 material out there that peaks my interest. On the other hand, just about every album I ever wanted is available in Vinyl and sounds as good or better than a 24/96 digital.
Analog playback = musical nirvana?
-gh0st |
