Considering analog...but nervous
Maineiac: You may be getting closer already :-) I've already started thinking about how I can edge my initial budget up closer to $2,500 by getting rid of something else. So tell me, what does an extra $1,000 (from $1,500 to $2,500) open up for me in terms of options? Should I still just stick to the $1,500 for starters? -gh0st |
That crack about labradoodles was way out of line! If you go down to your local druggie hangout and ask the crack/meth/heroin/pill popping dope fiends if you should give it a try, what do you think they will answer? Do you think they have your best interest at heart or are they validating their own choices? |
Stick to $1500, and spend the other $1000 on quality LP pressings. They are expensive, and $1000 will get you fewer quality, QUIET, pressings than you might think. Buying used vinyl is great, but it's hard to find really quiet used vinyl. Diehrard vinyl addicts like myself are often willing to overlook some noise, but since you are (by your own admission) really sensitive to clicks and pops, don't sabotage your experiment by buying vinyl on the cheap. Good luck. |
You need to consider the costs outside the initial TT/Cart combo as well. The software is on average $15-$20 for new and much more for the Audiophile pressings. You have stated a preference for new so even a modest collection like mine @ about 250 records is a pile of new CDs. I bought primarily used @ an average of $10-$12. I'm into classic rock primarily and the availability of the highly desired titles has become a problem in my area and the price is moving up in pace. The higher price from what many of you experience is from where I am and I'm extremely picky about condition so I only buy the near mint stuff. A couple used dealers stated they are having a very hard time coming up with inventory now. People leaving vinyl have sold their collections by now or hanging on to them to see where the prices are going to go. There are a great many new re-issues but many are from digital sources – I see this personally, as the worst of both worlds but others may not agree. As has been stated you need record cleaning materials that can be as little as $100 to $700. The actual cleaners are give or take $40 a bottle. New inner sleeves run about 20-25 cents each. I'm a firm believer in learning the craft. I built 2 of the 3 tables I have ( Lencos) so I'm not one to drag my TT down to a shop. If you are one of those you must factor those shop costs in, should you upgrade or buy used as you will likely need to install a new cartridge. If you chose to learn how to do things on your own there are things you will need to buy such as balance/scale for VTF, protractors( these can be from free to worth several hundred. Whether you will find it worthwhile is an important consideration. I believe vinyl can sound dramatically better but not always. I personally find it much more album by album which format will sound better than a blanket statement. In closing, all I can give you is my assessment of whether I feel my money was well spent. I started out about 2 years ago in exactly the same spot as you - Ground zero. I have 3 tables ( one cheapy for playing thrashed records) in two systems. I have about $3500 tied up in each rig: TT /arm /cart/ phono stage/cables. I must be useless and lazy but I only play vinyl about 5% of the time, so for me it hasn't been cost effective. However, it has been fun as I love the DIY aspect. Your mileage may vary qualifier in place. Kevin |
Once you settle on your TT/arm/cartridge, you may want to consider a MINT LP protractor. It is about $110 from Hong Kong and there are a few threads about it. Proper cartridge alignment is essential, and this is one fantastic tool. However, if you buy a new rig, the dealer should be able to set it up for you. If you go used, find a knowledgeable friend to help you along. You will surely benefit in time and learning curve. |
There are a few excellent rigs at $1500--the Marantz, the Clearaudio, Rega P5, and some I'm less familiar with from Pro-Ject and Music Hall. At $2500 the choices expand with VPI offerings, the Rega P7, more sophisticated models from Pro-Ject and Music Hall, and a couple that have reputation of challenging the high priced spread--the Well Tempered Amadeus and the Townshend Rock 7 with damping trough option (though by the time you get a tonearm it's more like $3500 or more). If you want it simple and good, I'd go for the Marantz TT-15S1 with included, mounted, set up, balanced and aligned Clearaudio Virtuoso wood-bodied MM cart (it's an $800 cart). Audio Advisor has a closeout demo on sale for $1359.99. Clearaudio makes the Marantz turntable, so there should be exceptional turntable/arm/cartridge compatibility. |
seems that you asked this question once before: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1218926373 |
I had checked out your prior threads as well. It is less than ideal that you have your system on the short wall - everyone says to set up systems that way, but for someone who values soundstaging, you'll have a much wider, more natural stage if you go with the long wall (you may lose a bit of depth, but you'll eliminate the tunnel effect). Since you listen at 7 ft., this should work well unless your listening chair or couch is thick-backed and thus keeps your head far off the back wall (I suspect that it would still be preferable to the short wall). Try it and report back. |
@Riley804: the OP said as much at the beginning of his post. Funny though since that was over 2 years ago--evidently, it didn't take back then. I started down this vinyl journey only 5 months ago. Gone through 2 phonostages, 2 preamps, 2 turntables, have 2 carts, 4 headshells, yards of cable and just bought another tonearm. It's frustrating as all get out, what with all the seemingly endless tweaks and nanometer adjustments, the seemingly endless possible cart/tonearm/cable combinations, the purchasing of nearly inevitably poor quality used records, and of course the non-stop draining of one's bank account. My tt is currently in the shop and so have been listening to CD's. It's just not the same--not nearly. And so despite the not insignificant inconveniences of vinyl, I persist and will do so for some time---assuming I don't hurl it all in the garbage and come to my senses. Rational deliberation is pretty useless in this domain. Like falling in love, passion for vinyl is more of a discovery than a decision. If you find yourself reading about tt's and tonearms at 3 in the morning and ignoring your loved ones, then you're a candidate. If not, well, there are other options. |
Raquel: Ironically, I had moved my entire room around and placed the speakers on the long wall for about 1 year (after my original post from way back). The soundstaging was absolutely better, however I had a serious dilemma. My listening room doubles as a dedicated home theater with a 100" screen. Sitting only 9' of a 100" screen was just too darn close and it made for terrible seating for everyone except me :-) during movies. Anyway, I recently switched everything back again and I'm back to the short wall again. The imaging has suffered, but it's not terrible. Deep, just not exceptionally wide. I know what you mean by the tunnel effect though... Unfortunately, it's all I have to work with right now. With 3 children under 6 years old, my placement options are limited (dedicated room only) and I've only been granted one room for dedicated A/V by my better half (can't say I can really argue). In about 5 years, we are planning to put an addition to the back of the house and in that addition will be a dedicated, 2 channel listening room built to spec (this has already been negotiated :-)). But until then, I have to deal with the 11.5" wide room that I have :-( Right now, the speakears (center of woofer) are about 2.5' from each side wall and 3.5' from the back wall. I then sit about 7' from the front of them. Ideally, I'd like to have enough width to have 3.5' on each side, 5.5' from the back and sit about 8-10' back. -gh0st |
Maineiac: I will certainly keep you posted once I shore up my plans (should be in the next few weeks). I've had a Transporter as my digital front end for about 2 years and recently bought the Modwright Transporter (2 weeks ago) here from Agon. I need to sell one of them, and the proceeds will be going directly to a TT setup. The question now is, which do I sell. One of the nice thing with the Transporter and Squeezebox setups, is that you can synchronize the same song between two units down to the millisecond...it's literally perfect. So for testing, I ran my MW Transporter into one input on my preamp and the stock Transporter into another input, and then started a song. I could then flip back and forth between units with literally NO interuption in the music. It's about the best A/B test scenario you could ever get. Anyway, last night I sat down and had my wife help me by doing it blind. I didn't know which one I was source I was starting each song with and then she would change them multiple times throughout the song and I would have to pick which one sounded better. I was hoping that I would fail the test miserably, thereby negating my need for the more expensive Modwright transporter which would equal more dollars for my TT setup. Unfortunately (for my TT funds) I passed the test everytime and was able to identify the Modwright Transporter every time as the better "sounding" unit. Anyway, sorry to ramble...I'm just really excited about it now though. Sometimes, getting past that initial decision is all you need. I spent about an hour last night researching LPs and finding my favorite albums and seeing what they cost (new). It's amazing how expensive some of the new vinyl is (as many have suggested in this thread) but there's also some good stuff that's affordable. An example is Willie Nelson - Stardust. One of my all-time favorite albums. It sounded excellent on SACD, but sounds dry on Redbook CD. I have to think the Vinyl of this baby would absolutely sail. Looks like I can pick it up used for about $20 which is more than reasonable... -gh0st Anyway |
If it makes you feel any better, I put up with a 11' x 22' room in a Manhattan apartment for fourteen years. The upside was that I was in a pre-war building with walls and floors made from foot-thick concrete - the only person who ever complained was in a neighboring building. Regarding used LP's, you'll soon find that some which cost a buck or two sound great (I mean GREAT) and that many new LP's from major reissue labels are disappointing - it's somewhat hit or miss. I'm listening to a performance of Liszt's 1st Piano Concerto on a Musical Heritage Society LP that I picked up at Tower's used classical bins many years ago that I doubt I paid a buck for, and it's sublime. |
In general, IMO, I can't see putting much money into a transport these days. Very few are anything special since most manufacturers have gone. Many times the mechanism are no different from what you find in a PC. I found a good performing CDP and it usually does sound better than music played from a file server. I think this is because the CDPs are a mature product and the transport-less options are still developing. You have to take each LP on its own merits regarding playback. Yes, you can get guidance on specific releases, but each LP can be as different as people. I find the forums work best for me as far as trusting the input I get from others regarding an LP release. If you get into collecting $1K copies of old jazz then you'll need much more professional input, but you'll know that if you do get into that craziness. Get your feet back on the ground if you are serious about vinyl playback. Be prepared for frustration, anger, set backs. There are many more mechanical interactions than you are accustom to, not to mention the importance of electrical components in the chain. I'm not trying to scare you off, just give you a dose of reality of what living with vinyl can be like. Especially when you are a complete novice. I strongly urge you to seek out someone with vinyl experience close to where you live that can give you hands-on, face to face help and guidance. Have you thought about whether or not you will use a suspended turntable or a non-suspended one? |
MHS editions have pretty much always been good in my experience as well. The performances are well-played, recorded, mastered, and pressed. And it seems that former owners on average took good care of them. Here's another tip: Box sets from subscriptions (e.g., Time-Life) often arrive at the thrift shops unplayed. Many of the Time-Life classical box sets are culled from RCA Living Stereo vaults, a few later ones are EMI. I once picked up 16 4-LP Time-Life box sets of their "Great Men of Music" series, at $1 each. Performances are by Rubinstein, Heifetz, Julian Bream, Boston Symphony w/Charles Munch, Van Cliburn, Cleveland w/George Szell, etc., and are in excellent to unplayed condition. |
I started to type out a post in this thread a few days ago about suspended versus mass-loaded tables, and then bagged it because I feared it would scare people off. Tables tend to come in two varieties, suspended or mass-loaded, whereby the designer attempts to address airborne and physical vibrations via suspensions or mass-loading. Tables with suspensions deal with vibration by suspending part or all of the plinth and platter with springs, rubber grommets or rubber bands, etc. Examples are the Linn LP12 and the Basis tables. Mass-loaded tables address vibration by using engineered materials (something that's typically heavy or dense or otherwise structured to affect vibration, like carbon fiber) to evacuate vibration or convert it into something less harmful to playback. Examples are the Walker, the Galibier, and the Verdier La Platine. Some table designs are hybrids, like the SME's and some VPI tables. Every table needs to be on a good platform, but this is particularly important for mass-loaded tables, as they are quite susceptible to foot fall if not placed on an isolated surface. I would strongly recommend that a beginner stay away from the suspended tables, particularly the Linn, which is capable of high performance, but a real handful to keep set up properly. It's a shame, as the Linn's are great for rock - they boogie. Regarding LP quality, the above poster is correct - it's very much an album-by-album thing. A particular album release or particular artist may get a rep for good pressings (White Stripes releases, for example), but if you're talking about a classic rock album from the 70's, there may be fifteen different pressings and it's impossible to know what you've got until you clean it and spin it. Also and very importantly, you can't completely judge a used album by its face - many seemingly perfect looking LP's have serious groove damage and sound like shit because they were played with bad styli, while albums that look somewhat scratched up sound great because the scratches are surface-level and the grooves were not penetrated. Obviously ragged LP's are obviously ragged, but don't be surprised if you get a "mint"-rated LP that looks less than mint but sounds flawless. Finally, I disagree with the posts that portray vinyl as being some kind of gigantic science project that will have you running around with a protractor, never knowing if your going to be able to play a record. It's simple - get a mass-loaded table, have it set up properly (and then resist the temptation to fuck around with the set up), vacuum clean every LP that comes into your possession before you play it, and thereafter, before and after you play a side, remove surface dust with a brush. Finally, pay your set-up guy $150 every year to eighteen months to come out and check your set-up. That's it - the only thing that's remotely inconvenient is the four or five minutes it takes to vacuum clean an LP - if you come home from the bargain bins with fifty LP's that need cleaning, pay your kid or some kid in the neighborhood a few bucks to do it for you. |
Well-said, Raquel. For all the dire warnings in threads like this, as though several blocks of your city will explode if your cartridge alignment is off by a nanometer, let's remember that LPs have been the quality consumer musical medium of choice for 62 years. All through my childhood, teen years, and on into middle adulthood, people of all ages played LPs and ate dinner, danced, partied, and made love to the music they provided. True, you get better results with better turntable, arm & cart and closer tolerances in the setup, but it's still just geometry, not rocket science, and the worst that can happen is less-than-optimal sound, not a manmade disaster. |
Yes, fatgh0st, I agree you can easily use non-suspended tables. Even within this sub-category, different tables will react differently to what they are sited on. My experience is that most do fine on a rigid table, but it doesn't always need to be a heavy one. In general I agree with Raquel about footfalls, however, I have heard a couple of setups with 100+ lb non suspended tables on suspended floors and there was no footfall issue. Every situation is different, and there are ways to correct such a problem. Anyway, at the OPs price point I don't think we're talking about a massive table. Absolutely. This is not rocket science, and there are excellent tools and information available. However, there are some delicate things around turntables. There are many more people who have jumped into vinyl, not achieved what their digital sources can do, and then dump it. If the rest of us are lucky these folk are simply disappointed. More times than not, they join the ranks of vinyl bashers. I think fatgh0st's experience would be greatly enhanced if he could connect with someone close to him. But in the least, he should seek setup help. |
So, I'm heading out to the local HiFi store tomorrow and I'm going to listen to a few TTs. Namely, the Music Hall MMF5.1SE and the Denon Special Edition. I will probably end up purchasing the MMF5.1 as I have 30 days to play with it in home with a full refund if I don't like it. Any thoughts on this particular Music Hall table? Anyone with any experience with the Denon? $2,500 for a Denon seems high from what I've seen, but then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about :-) -gh0st |
My feeling is that something like a mint VPI Scoutmaster or entry-level Basis, purchased used, would be a better route, particularly because they can be upgraded. In addition, both can take a really high-end arm and cartridge (and the arms that come with each are good arms). The Music Hall and Denon have defined performance ceilings and are more in the style of the Rega tables, i.e., plug and play. |
Hey Fatghost, I say go for it. I just did. I should have my analog set up in the next two weeks. In your original post you mention that your digital tends to be on the bright side on some material. Well that could be your digital source but mostly it is the digital software. I run into the same problem with some cd's on my DCS Puccini which I think is a great digital source and many agree with me. The issue isn't so much my player as it is what is being played. Here is an example. I like Van Halen. Notice I said like not love but they can be very entertaining to listen to when in the mood. I have all of their CD's and most are so bright and compressed that it is not worth listening to. (Same goes for U2. UGGGGGH!) I recently did a direct comparison of 1984 on CD to STOCK LP and the LP is so much better. There is good digital out now but it is much more difficult to get audiophile or even higher quality ROCK recordings in digital versus LP. PS. It is possible to get quiet vinyl. My dealer has a Monk cleaner and I can tell you that vinyl played back after a cleaning is so quiet you would swear it was digital until the music starts. :) I would ask the veteran analog guru's for advice on what to use. The Monk units are quite expensive. |
My thought was that I would purchase the Music Hall for the sake of getting it into my listening room with a no obligation return policy. I'll pick up a few LPs of my favorite albums and give them a spin. Assuming I like the analog sound with my components and room, I can return it and purchase something more long-term here from Agon. I have been watching the ads here at Agon and the VPI tables were of interest, but someone mentioned that their setup is a bit finicky for the beginner... Thoughts? |
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FatGhost: Viridian is correct regarding the Music Hall (he is also absolutely correct in the other thread regarding the unimportance of primary resonance, which is usually irrelevant because of the low rumble of modern tables - arm/cartridge resonance is the issue, and it's totally unpredictable until an actual arm/cartridge combo is tried - but that exceeds the scope of your thread). If I were you, I would buy a used VPI and then drive it to Soundsmith (Peter Ledermann) in Peekskill, New York (about 2.5 hours from Philly), for set up on a Saturday, and then pick it up the next Saturday - he might be able to do it all the same day, but you'd obviously have to ask. He'd probably charge you $100-$125. Peter uses VPI tables and he makes VPI's cartridges (he can mount any cartridge you buy - I just mention this for you to understand who this guy is). Except for maybe Frank Schroeder, no one knows more about analog then Peter. |
I would absolutely get a vpi scout before a Music Hall anything if I was getting my first table. the arm that comes with the scout is superior and its resale value if you trade up is likely better. There are a lot of scouts out there used from people who are trading up. That said, if you are going to spend the entire 2500, I would get the VPI Classic. Its about as plug and play as you can get, and has gotten great reviews from everyone who has heard it. I dont own one, since I tend towards suspended tables like Oracle and Sota, but the VPI is a decent product for the price. You could pick up a very nice Sota Sapphire for that price, factory rebuilt or even a Star from a private seller. The Star adds a vacuum platter, which I find to be very effective. But I wouldnt get the MMF or Denon. |
OK, so I went to two different retailers today in the area and listened to two different tables. Needless to say, I'm in love :-). The sound is so much more natural than the digital I'm used to and guess what...the surface noise didn't bother me a bit. I listened to some new Vinyl that I picked up before I went out listening, and I listened to some old Vinyl (including a 1961 signed copy of Brubeck's Time Out that one of the reps had there). While the surface noise was certainly noticeable, I was instantly overtaken by the music and the sound and it didn't bother me a bit. The first setup I listened to was a Pro-Ject 2 Xperience with the Pro-ject 9cc arm and a Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 HO MC cartridge. It was hooked up to an Audio Research Vsi60 Tube Integrated Amp and a pair of Vandersteens (can't remember the model). The sound was very alive and well placed. My only concern was that Electrostats also have a very different sound than my speakers so it's hard to say how big of an impact they made. The biggest standout for me was the incredibly accurate tonality in the instruments. Music listened to on the Pro-Ject: Ray Lamontagne - Trouble (Trouble, Jolene) Nirvana - Unplugged in New York (Man Who Sold the World) Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man) Steely Dan - Aja (Black Cow) Dave Brubeck - Time Out / Take Five (Blue Ronda a la Turk) My next stop was to listen to the Music Hall MMF5.1SE. This unit had a Pro-Ject arm on it and a Goldring MM Cart. The setup was entirely different. McIntosh Pre, McIntosh Amp and (exceptionally large) DynAudio speakers. The room was extremely cramped (at least 12 pairs of other speakers in the room, along with other equipment racks) and a much smaller space than the first place in general. The room was heavily treated with sound panels on the walls and ceiling and Bass Traps in the rear corners. This system sounded much "tighter" and less appealing. To be honest, it sounded more like the digital sound that I'm used to. Not quite as edgy, but not nearly as open and easy to just sit back and absorb. Music Listened to on the Music Hall Neil Young - Greatest Hits (Old Man) Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms (Money for Nothing) So beetween the two, my nod goes 100% to the Pro-Ject. However, I couldn't help but wonder if the supporting components/rooms were causing a big difference. Does the sound that I describe and the differences sound more like the different speakers' signatures than the TTs? I really liked the sound of that Pro-Ject and I want to think that it's what I can expect from a table of that caliber or higher, but I'd hate to get one, bring it home, and end up with the sound that was similar to the MH that I heard as I was not nearly as impressed (although it was still nice) since my current speakers are more similar to that of the DynAudios than the Vandersteens... I sure hope this venture isn't going to cost me a new pair of speakers as well! As always, any responses/opinions are greatly appreciated. -gh0st |
Vandy's are dynamic (cone) loudspeakers, not electrostatics. But they use simple first-order crossovers that are well implemented - very good speakers. It's impossible to say what you were hearing, as you were listening to two unfamiliar systems in unfamiliar venues. The second system was obviously a lousy set up (a room full of equipment that was, in addition, almost certainly overdamped, based upon your description). If you want to know what a turntable sounds like, I would see if Dave Lewis Audio or Overture currently has a high-end table set up on premises. Overture is a serious shop by current standards, but I don't know if they really know what they're doing with analog or give a shit (most places don't and don't). Dave Serota (Dave Lewis Audio), on the other hand, is a committed two-channel guy with some very serious analog clients - my guess is that his shop is where you would be most likely to get good exposure. Some people think he's a dick - he's been great with me, but I've been a customer. |
Your description of the second audition sounds like the symptoms typical of an overdamped room. Having a dozen other loudspeakers in the room, especially a small one, would act like tonesuckers, absorbing the low level detail that made the first presentation so appealing. Given that Pro-Ject makes the Music Hall turntables, and that they share same/similar tonearms, the differences you heard *may* be room-related. Could also be everything else--cables, warmup time, component selection, even the cartridge setups themselves. |
First new/used does not matter. There is no hiss/pop/crackle in vinyl done right! Second, if your scared or nerves look elsewhere. Third, the mussic you listen too does not matter it is ALL available in vinyl. Forth and finally but not least, vinyl is more then a hobby, vinyl is a commitment. It is like a marrage, you never stop paying for it. It is a way of life a type of obsession. It is not like digital, play and forget. You have to be involved. You do not listen to one or 2 songs on an album an move on. You listen to one sides at a time. You listen. Not to instrument placement or volcal accuracy or even seperation, you listen to music. Rock, pop, jazz, classical, country, rega, indie, it is all here and it does not matter which. Just that you love music and you are looking/willing to listen! |
So, thanks to all the wonderful responses I received through this post, many hours of research, and a few hours in various different listening rooms, I have decided to move forward. After a major budget inflation (didn't someone predict this???), I have decided to purchase new and move forward with a VPI Classic TT and Dynavector 20XH cartridge (although the cart is not 100% locked in). However, now I find myself wondering if I shouldn't be focusing on the phono input on my Musical Fidelity KW-500 and whether or not I shouldn't replace that at the same time. I'm starting another post specifically for this discussion. Thanks again to everyone who contributed. You've made the process that much easier. -gh0st |
Les_creative_edge already summed it up on 1/24. I often reason that if I had it all to do over, I might settle on a good all-tube system and CDs, and just listen to the music. However, the message is in the medium: The LP forces me to focus on a side at a time, as the artist and producer intended, and prevents me from skipping through what I don't think I want to hear, or from walking away to "multitask," because I need to be there at lead-out time. I play CDs; I listen to LPs. |
gh0st, I could NOT love music without my LPs. A second, non-aural benefit is enjoying the jacket art and recording information in human-scale font. Nothing beats a great recording WITH a great piece of art. Last night, I played a pristine copy of Martin Denny's original Exotica in mono whilst staring at "exotica girl" cover model Sandy Warner. A Mai Tai would have made that moment perfect, and yes, I do have a life, with my own exotica girl, otherwise. |
I have had more transcendental experiences playing vinyl in the past four years (when I set up a vinyl rig) than the previous 20 years of CD-only listening. I thought I was getting too old (mid-50s) to really enjoy music. That was not the case. I had simply lost my patience with trying to feel the music from a red book source. I've recently played fresh LP versions of music I've known for decades that move me to emotional responses I never had with that music before. In fact, it happens pretty often now. I don't just hear the music, I hear how the music was made. I sense the effort and artistry behind the song and performance, and therein lies the artist-to-listener connection. |
My advice - don't go there. First, without a really good cleaning device, you will not be happy with the noise (but with a nice investment of 1000+ in record cleaning you will not experience any/much noise). Second, vinyl is for those who want to collect records from the golden era of vinyl. If you are only going to buy post digital era reissues, then stick with that as they will give you the same sound without the inconvenience. If, on the other hand, you lust after an original 1952 Blue note w42nd st in mint condition for several hundred $, then by all means, go for the vinyl. |
