Clock vs Streamer advice

No love for Antipodes here?

I'm sure I'd have some love for Antipodes if even their cheapest streamer/server was at my price point 

Actually, some are affordable for me. I was on a different site where they were more expensive, but the k21 looks to be $7k

@zpatenaude37 I don't know why this is still for sale: absolute bargain

k50

@zpatenaude37 

Perhaps you might check out the Grimm MU1 (disclosure: I’ve onwed one for 2+ years). With the introduction of the MU2 (MU1 with inboard dac) a few preowned MU1’s have popped up for sale. At the time of my purchase I compared with others inclusive of the Innuos Statement and preferred the MU1. The current street price for a preowned appears to be in your target price range. I run mine via AES into a DCS Bartok Apex…simply breathtaking. There are alot of fine products out there and I passed through the tweaky phase (ether regens, filters, fiber, usb, all kinds of stuff) and found the greatest improvement was simplifying the chain, which the MU1 facilitated. I believe strongly that AES is superior presently. While the inboard streamer over ethernet in my DCS sounds exceptional, there is just something very special with the stream from the Grimm. Good luck and best wishes.

@ghasley very nice. Yes, I can't see how someone would be disappointed with an MU1. Are you now simply going ethernet cable direct from router? or switch? Audiophile ethernet cable? 

Hi @mclinnguy , I hope you are well!

I go from router to a Network Acoustics Rubicon Switch, Audioquest Vodka ethernet cable to Grimm MU1, Shunyata Sigma V2 AES cable to DCS Bartok Apex. I also have another Vodka ethernet from switch to Bartok. I once had Muon filter, Muon Pro filter and the Grimm seemed to my ears to be agnostic with those in the chain. If I were to arbitrairly score the Grimm AES feed vs the Bartok’s own streamer over ethernet it would be something like a 92 for the Grimm via AES and an 89 for the Bartok over ethernet. The Bartok streamer is very good but there is perhaps another level of refinement with the Grimm. I have some HDTT DSD recordings so I stream those directly to the Bartok since the Grimm is 24/192. Ironically, many of the downconverted DSD sound better when fed through the Grimm at 24/96 than the DSD version. The Grimm’s clocking and 4fs must have some advantage in that regard. The Taiko would be something like a 95-96 in my system but at the end of the day, there just is no way for me to justify a 3x price differential for a very minor subjective difference.

I really, really believe that the clocking in the server is a very real thing with the Grimm. USB users who have focused on their dac’s own clocking might not understand why high end server/streamer A sounds so similar to high end server/streamer B…its because in many cases they may. If you happen to have the opportunity to hear a well done AES stream versus a well done USB stream you may come to the conclusion that the maturity of the AES stream has some advantages depending on the rest of the audio chain. Something else that is very enlightening…connecting some older dacs to the Grimm, perhaps well regarded back in the day, will yield jaw dropping results. For instance, I recently connected a mk1 version of a Merason DAC1 to the the Grimm…made me wonder why I spent the extra money on the DCS….(spoiler alert, its because I already own it LOL)

@ghasley thanks for the excellent and knowledgeable response. I didn't think you just had a generic ethernet cable only. 😉 I am doing very well, with my new streamer, but I'm not saying what it is yet ha ha. Hope you are well yourself, and it sounds like you are 😁

@zpatenaude37

Is your Bricasti MC1 similar to the M1 in that you can have a network card installed?

I own a Bricasti M3 and a close friend owns an M1.  We have listened to them using every input.  The network input is, by far, the best input for these DACs.  One of the main reasons is that the network signal path is the shortest to the chipsets inside the chassis according to the designer Mr. Zolner.

My friend compared his insanely purposely built PC using two separate Mutec boxes (master clock then a reclocker) to his M1 and the network input from his home server.  We were able to blindly choose the network input every time.  Nothing changed tonality.  It was all about spatial cues and greater size and delineation of soundstage right/left and front/back.  Oh, BTW, he also uses B&W 802s.

TL;DR

Set up a home network if possible and use the Bricasti network card inside your MC1.

“I really, really believe that the clocking in the server is a very real thing”

+1, @ghasley on the importance of clocking in a server/streamer. I have taken a slightly extreme approach by addressing the clocking in a streamer and DAC with a very high quality external master clock that has yielded to a very satisfying listening experience. 

Do you exclusively stream through Roon?  If so and you don't have a big budget then why not Roon Nucleus as  your streamer--then USB to your DAC same as when you used Macbook.  Nucleus is purpose built for Roon, has no fan and even though one user here had a bad experience his situation was unusual.

@zpatenaude37 how are you getting on? 

Hey, sorry I haven’t responded in a bit.

I spent the weekend with the N200 and N1Z. Both were great. The N200 beat out the N1Z on certain albums, but I strangely found it more fatiguing for long sessions.

I did look into the network upgrade for my MC1, and they can do it. It sucks that I won’t be able to demo that before doing it, but I think I will go with that option. It is Roon ready, so I’ll be good to go. Looking through the forums, I haven’t seen anyone expressing disappointment with the network upgrade on their Bricasti.

That will save some money, and then I will demo the shunyata altaira. I live in an apartment currently, so I'm curious if a grounding hub will add a notable difference. 

“I strangely found it more fatiguing for long sessions.”

@zpatenaude37 

While I respect your decision to go with network card option w/Bricasti….the N200 is anything but fatigued sounding. My best guess, you are now used to N100 laid back and slightly recessed sound. Whereas N200 is more dynamic, detailed and has a better much frequency extension and slam. Just my .02 cents. 

@lalik +1

This is an unusual observation. This is just not a characteristic of the Aurender sound. I can only think the fatigue is coming from elsewhere in the system.

@lalitk haha, my brain may have fatigued because I’m not used to such attention to detail

I will admit that I was listening with some bias. The used N1Z is the cheaper option. I was really hoping that I would prefer the N1Z to save some money, so maybe I tried to create a preference for it.

There were several albums where the difference was not notable. But when I listened to Glenn Gould, the Goldberg Variations, the N200 shined above. Then Billie Holiday. Her vocals have always sounded a bit harsh in my system. On the N1Z, it was slightly harsh, but with the N200, it was not. And then Tool’s Chocolate Chip Trip had another dimension on the N200 compared to the N1Z.

@zpatenaude37 if not too late…I’d like to chime in.
I have done a pretty extensive comparison in my system between the Bricasti M3 network card used as a Roon endpoint and the Bricasti M3 used as DAC driven by Aurender N200. To me, the network renderer in the Bricasti does not compete with the N200. This was the case even when I used the N200 with a stock power cord and the included Aurender USB cable.
Few important items to make a note of with the N200 -

1. It requires close to 300hrs of break in to settle. There are times when it will sound “digital” and grainy in the beginning and midway thru. It all starts going away after about 250hrs and by 300hrs it’s awesome

2. The N200 is optimized for USB. Yes the spdif out sounds good but USB is just better in every way. However, even with the spdif out using DH Labs D750 cable I liked it better than using the M3 network card

3. The Aurender is very resolving but not harsh. If your components or cables upstream are tuned to brighten things up, you will hear the brightness imparted by the upstream components.

This streamer is not a small change when added to the system and as any impactful upgrade will require some work to properly integrate. Once done, it’s smooth, tube like and extended with great dynamics. That is how I would describe it. Going back to the Bricasti network card, using the same Ethernet cable I use to feed the Aurender, the soundstage collapses, clarity reduces and the overall presentation just doesn’t match the N200. Not to completely disregard the Bricasti network card, it competed and beat out the Lumin U1 Mini in my system. So it’s not terrible at all. It just doesn’t hold a candle to the N200.

@audphile1 thank you for the input. I may wait and save a bit more for the N200. I have been pretty concerned about spending the $1500 when I can't demo it. And I was not very smart with my demo. The N1Z only has USB, and the N200 dealer let me borrow a $2500 MIT SPDIF cable. It was easy to just switch inputs on the DAC quickly by using just spdif on N200 and USB on N1Z. I didnt even try USB on the N200. 

I also can't stand the Aurender app, but I'll live with it. Every single time I went to pick a new song, it disconnected, so I had to go back and find where I was on the playlist. It was the same bullshit with my N100H. The guy at Goodwins Audio said its the same for him too. 

I don’t have these issues with the conductor app. It’s 100% stable for me. There’s a default action you can pick when adding a song to the queue. I usually have add to end. Then I go back after I’m done adding songs or just let the queue get there on its own. But it never disconnects for me. Very strange.

As to adding a network card, go under the assumption that it will be a competitor to a $1500-$2000 streamer…some but not all. 

@zpatenaude37

As far as Conductor App, stable as ROCK in my system. Unable to maintain connectivity is indicative of unstable WiFi network or perhaps a setting in Conductor app. Have Aurender run a diagnostic check…there is a solution for this!

I wound expect the n200 to sound better based on cost differential.  You may want to look at Small Green Computer (i5, i7, i9) with the Bricasti rendering card as a more cost effective solution.  I’m currently using an SGC i5 w/4tb ssd interfaced via Ethernet cable into a Bricasti M1 S2. The solution performs very well has great sound staging, imaging and detail.  Great option if you use Roon and need to define multiple end points and want to seamlessly interface a personal music collection with a streaming service like Qobuz.

Often, the reaction to new software is negative. It is different from what you were using and it is very counter intuitive. The Conductor app is widely praised, while not the be-all or end-all… very good. As you get used to it, it becomes easy to use and it is becoming better and better.

@zpatenaude37 I had the exact same experience with the conductor app.  It drove me nuts!  I have AT&T fiber optic internet service and the ethernet cable going from my router to the A20.  No other connection issues in my home over the Wi-Fi.  The A20 was the only component using a cable.  About 3 months ago I picked up a dCS Bartok and the issue was much worse with their mosaic app.  It would not only lose connection but instead of reconnecting in a few seconds, I would often have to close out the app several times before ever reconnecting.  It would eventually show the device like it does when you first set up the system.  It would also do something weird where if I paused the music for 30min or more and then come back and open the app and press play it would stop after a few seconds and skip to the next song.  I feel like this is an issue with our networks/routers but I am an IT idiot so had no idea what to do.  My digital journey took me back to separates today.  I had the Bluesound Node 2i for a few years and never had one single connection issue with the BluOS app.  I got their new Node Nano to stream into my new DAC and same as before..works perfectly.  Wish I had an answer but you aren't alone!