Clean ground

First no, none of them require earth ground. They have the third ground but not a one of them requires it. In fact they will as you already seem to understand only be noisier if connected to another wire going to ground.  

Matter of fact, Mike Smith of Fidelium was just at my place recently for Chuxpona and saying the exact same thing. In fact he carries around a cheater plug to prove his point. So there.  

Probably you will reject this correct and useful advice. This always happens. So what you do then is establish your own earth ground with a ground rod, run a wire up into the room, connect it to a grounding box (fancy term for a bus bar) and ground your gear into that.   

We now return you to our regularly scheduled yada yada.

Hi Pauly,

The ground is there for safety reasons, but are not part of the audio or power circuit until a fault occurs.  When a fault occurs which allows voltage to flow through the chasis the safety ground (that pesky middle pin) conducts 15 or 20 A blowing the breaker before anyone can be shocked.

So, no the circuits does not require ground but safety does.

The best ideas I have seen is to use a high power inductor on the ground. Something that can take 15 Amps.  This will allow you to meet code requirements and also keep the noise out of your system.  I believe some expensive power conditioners now do this.

If you are completely off the grid though, with no grounds like cable TV or anything else connecting you you can create your own ground which should be noise free.

Best

Erik

@erik_squires

Thank you for you response but ;

1.) I have active cables that do not work if not connected to ground.

2.) I need my ground not to have an elevated AC resistance as my cables dumps  EFI and EMI onto ground. An inductor would be as bad as no ground for this particular function.

Hence me asking how to establish a separate ground.

@Pauly- you sound like you know your way around a soldering iron, so I don’t want to patronize you in this response, but are you talking about a clean dedicated ground that is connected to the main ground or an isolated ground? I have the former- a run of 4 gauge directly up to my room at the time I had the wiring done. It is tied to the house ufer, as I think is required by Code. @Jea48 is your man on Code-related issues assuming those apply where you are.
Let’s see if the link will work to an image. If not I will delete. The photo is there and shows the buss bar and the black 4 gauge feeding it. Sorry it is out of focus in that part of the photo but it was the only close up I had that included it that I could find quickly online.

@whart

Close. I’m thinking a clean dedicated ground line but NOT connected to the house mains.

I’m thinking a dedicated ground line to use for my audio. Perhaps a couple of ground spike in the back and a cable running from there into my lounge? I’d like to hear from folks who had done something similar or close to similar.

Is your bus at the copper colored bar towards the left rear? That would be great. I need one that’s not connected to the house main ground, but a second dedicated for audio ground.

Thanks.

@Pauly- so is it safe to say that nothing in the audio system plugs into a wall receptacle for the household electrical system, but instead, the entire system is battery driven? Apart from the system that charges it (which is connected to your electrical system, I presume). I wonder how this would be treated under the applicable electrical code since if my assumptions above are correct, none of the system components are "plugged in" to the household system.
@Jea48 might have some insight, which is the only reason I’m tagging him-- I’m sure he has other things that occupy him too. Interesting question. I have a battery powered line stage with tubes that is a marvelous sounding beast.

You asked: "Is your bus at the copper colored bar towards the left rear? That would be great. I need one that’s not connected to the house main ground, but a second dedicated for audio ground. "
Yes, it is blurry, the focus was on the phono stage sitting in front, but that's a standard copper buss bar that I adapted with some generic fittings to mount on the wall. And the 4 gauge cable (you can see where it attaches to the bar) runs back through the house down to where the electrical sub-system with big Iso-transformer are stationed. I had commercial electricians do the work. It was worth it. 

@whart

Correct.Nothing touches a wall socket with the exception of the three prong plug that provides access to ground.

I charge when I’m not listening.

In the rare event that I want to take input from, or output to, a device that is plugged in on a wall socket, I use an audio engine Bluetooth connection. There is never a physical connection between components on battery and components on mains.

If you have a better pic of that there busbar I’d like to see it. Even focused images seem blurry to me so your pic is challenging.
Thanks

Pauly- here's an example, I think you can get these cheaper and they are sold on Amazon as well.
I will also try to take a photo of my set up that better shows the bar and post it later. In the meantime, here's the commercial site. 

Great thanks. The McMaster-Carr site has given me a good idea what they look like.

Are you familiar with a marine DCV grounding system? It's based on a star hub grounding system. When you dock you can ground your star hub to the docks ground.. or in your case a new copper ground rod driven in the earth. It has to be completely separate from the house earthen ground.. Your battery charging system is the issue but only when charging..

Every device needs a - and + to work, all devices - are tied together on the star, and the star to the - side of the battery. The + side is the fuse side. The closer to the battery the better.  Use a GREAT automotive or marine fuse bus it makes a big difference in SQ.. Each battery driven component gets it's own fuse..  All battery connections are treated with NoCo. It's a battery terminal contact enhancer and soft sealer..

I've done a few pleasure boat installs.. It's close as long as there is not an onboard AC genset.. Deep cycle DC sound systems can ROCK.

Regards

@oldhvymec- I'll bet you even know just how much air to let out of the tires to get the rig through an overpass. You should have seen the crane they brought in on an articulated multi-wheel chassis- my property isn't huge and they man handled this Liebherr crane into my front yard to take down a 90+ft plus pecan that had to go. Watching these guys work was a trip. It was heavy hydraulics, I guess, but guided by computer precision. The crane operator knew exactly how much each chunk of tree weighed as they started at the top, and over two days, cut it down to a stump. 

Thanks for the info @oldhvymec. I’m googling for some more info on this at moment

@pauly

You said:

Correct.Nothing touches a wall socket with the exception of the three prong plug that provides access to ground.

I charge when I’m not listening.

In the rare event that I want to take input from, or output to, a device that is plugged in on a wall socket, I use an audio engine Bluetooth connection. There is never a physical connection between components on battery and components on mains.

1.) I have active cables that do not work if not connected to ground.

Question:
Does both battery(s) pos B+ and neg B- float with no reference to the metal chassis of any of the audio equipment that is connected to the batteries?
B- is not connected to chassis?
Metal chassis would act as an antenna I would think if it was not connected to B-.

1.) I have active cables that do not work if not connected to ground.

I am having trouble seeing the loop, closed circuit, to mother earth ground and back to the source, the batteries.

Test:
Measure for DC voltage from B+ to chassis.
Measure for DC voltage from B+ to metal enclosure of battery charger. (charger left connected to battery(s).)
(I assume charger uses a 3 wire cord and grounding type plug.)


Quote from Henry W Ott:

"Electromagnetic Compatibility Engineering"

Grounding Myths

4. To operate with low noise, a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground. False, because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. As a matter of fact, an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem. More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground than by connecting it to earth ground.

5. To reduce noise, an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod. False, in addition to being untrue, this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules).

6. An earth ground is unidirectional, with current only flowing into the ground. False, because current must flow in loops, any current that flows into the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else.

@jeah48

" Does both battery(s) pos B+ and neg B- float with no reference to the metal chassis of any of the audio equipment that is connected to the batteries?"

Yessir.

" I am having trouble seeing the loop, closed circuit, to mother earth ground and back to the source, the batteries."

That’s because there is no loop. Have a look at New Page 3 (auralthrillsaudio.com)

Note : It’s not my design (obviously) so I don’t have a dog in the race as to the theory and tech behind the cables and therefore have no interest in debating them. After many many hours of listening and comparing, I found the cables do indeed sound better when connected to ground.

For batteries, I use these guys. Power Station – EcoFlow . Mainly for aestetics, but it simplifies things a lot as well. I can leverage the 110AC out as awell as 5 and 12 v DC outs. When I charge I simply plug them into the wall socket. Easy peasy.

I’d really appreciate anyone that can give me pointers on establishing a completely separate "mother earth ground". Engaging in debate, not so much

Thanks

Liebherr crane

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bauer uses a Liebherr track and cab, from there on it is ALL Bauer.
They can drill a 3 foot hole in solid granite or basite to what ever depth they can pull out of.. over 100 feet. It’s never a problem drilling the hole its clearing the hole and being able to recover your tooling. 1-5 million dollar rigs.

It wasn’t my forte, but it was the parent company of Klemm
and I had to work on quite a few threw the years.. I was a pretty well known for hydraulics troubleshooting. So concrete pumpers too. Putz and Schwing pump rigs..

Multi pump units, confluence for speed and flow.. and remote.. Pretty serious stuff amigo!.. CANN bus OBD2 + power trains with the new 200k regen engines.. They SUCK.. nothing but problems.. What a F%$#ing mess.

Glad I’m done.. LOL I loved chipping grout to get to 50 30mm nuts and take two days cutting those off with an air ARC. Noisy ba$terd.
To lift a 15 ton cab off a track mount on the side of a mountain at 11,000 feet. I really miss that..

A guys hard hat came off and rolled down the hill an knock out an A HOLE foreman who had his hard hat OFF. The only good thing about the job other than being finished. He got fired, for a safety violation. :-) GOD does smile on me.. he really does.

He yell right up till the time he got knocked out, then he SHUT UP..

Lets say he was well GROUNDED for the purpose of the thread.

Sorry OP, hands are feeling exceptional today, rare..

Marine electrical is two thing, explosion proof, and dedicated - (not really a ground it a completion of the circuit) for every circuit and a star (collection point) for the - DCV battery.
Fuses are again in explosion proof plastics and a second cover in the event of a frag. Most electricians know nothing about DC other than they don’t like it and call it "LO VOLTAGE".

There is no ground in a DC circuit, there is completion of the circuit. They have never used chassis ground unless there was computer involved. The chassis is common it’s not a ground. You can dissipate a static discharge through a common chassis (aircraft) but it is not going to an EARTHEN ground.

I’d keep a separate ground several feet away from a pole ground.. WAY AWAY.. That for overvoltage. PERIOD.

You don’t want to mix them up..

My brother was the BA for the Local IBEW 302. He always came and got his little brother for automotive wiring.. LOL. Great guy.. "Stone face"

Wait till you get bit with 20 12 volt batteries at 12 volts. DEAD! Your DEAD.. a kezillion amps.. no way to let go.. DEAD... Wile E Coyote scene. No holes in you work boot.. and surely no water.. LOL

https://www.google.com/search?q=wile+e+coyote+burn+up?&sxsrf=AOaemvJTyidih9J-2AkEzOPr-w6MOe7Emw:...

Regards

@pauly

When it comes to audio I’ll believe anything until proven otherwise.
https://www.auralthrillsaudio.com/battac.htm


As for a "Clean Ground".
I see you live in the NE. Assuming soil in your area is not excessively sandy and is black dirt and clay rod to soil resistance should be fairly low.

Installation:
Drive at least two 5/8" x 10ft copper clad ground rods into the earth at least 10ft apart from one another. Drive the rods at least 2ft minimum away from the house’s foundation wall. 3ft is even better. Drive rods 4" to 6" below grade if rods will be in a grassy area for mowing. Distance from foundation wall is for soil moisture created from rain fall that may be inhibited from roof soffit overhang. Use 5/8" ground rod clamps to connect ground wire size of your choice to the two rods. Run ground wire continuous from the inside of the house to the first rod and unbroken to the second rod. Dig trench 4" to 6" deep to bury ground wire and protect from possible damage.

Lightning protection....
IF it were me I would disconnect the ground wire from the active cabling during a lightning storm. Even a nearby lightning strike will travel through the earth and could travel up the ground rods and follow the ground wire into your home.
After you install your dedicated isolated grounding electrode system I would ABX listening using the isolated grounding electrode system to using the EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) from the wall outlet branch circuit. If you cannot hear a difference I would suggest you use the EGC.

Example of 5/8" ground rod clamp.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/RACO-5-8-in-Ground-Rod-Clamp-5-Pack-R22BAG5R/205843263

.

@jea48 Thank you for the info. I wouldn’t have thought to use such long grounding rods.

Dear @pauly  : In all my system items only my phonolinepreamp is grounded and from this item is from where the audio signal goes to all other electronics items avoiding this way ground loops that always are noisy.

Now, years ago I decided to have a    true ground coming from the earth so a " technician " did it: he,  as @oldhvymec stated ,  took a 2m. copper rod in a hole in earth ( at around 2-3m deep. ) where previously he puts a combination of some " ingredients " as salt and the the rod gone there with the attached cooper cable and he close the hole and that cable is connected to my phonolinepreamp. That's it. Btw, that connection goes too at my dedicated electrical line where my system is fully regulated.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.