Classical Music for Aficionados

Bjorling is the best. Want proof? Cavelleria Rusticana with Tebaldi on RCA. Whoa!

pryso  + kef 

I had a "trick" I used to play on guys ,and gals, over to listen to my system .
As you know , Pavarotti made a career out of" Nessum Dorma" late in life.
I would play the big guys version  and everyone, including me, was  in awe of the great force of nature .
Few minutes later I would put in a CD of Bjorling singing his version and me saying , that was how you sing loud and this is how you sing good .
Usual reply after Bjorling was "Oh !"
Not knocking the big guy , I felt like my brother died  when he passed .

rvpiano, I feel you .
I used to say I have the greatest 15K system in the world and it only cost
me 45K  !

geoffkait , you got that right homey , best voice I ever heard and ALWAYS done with pure class and respect for the music !

 Coming to this discussion late...
Pianists that I love that I don't think have been mentioned, Martha Argerich and Mitsiko Uchida, nothing like a woman's touch.
I wish I could have heard Clara Schumann play her husband's piano concerto.
Actually, there is a recording of Argerich/Rostropovich playing the A minor that is one of my favorites. I bought the album and need to have it converted to digital as it hasn't been converted- I don't know why....
B

Amen , gdnrbob.
I once sat about 20 ft from Uchida  playing Schubert  at the Marlboro Festival . Her back was to me and it was not a warm day , but her shirt got soaking wet with effort on D960 B flat .
At or near the top of my list  for both  Schubert and Mozart  .

schubert, of course I've heard "the big guy" perform Nessum Dorma and it was enjoyable.  But he didn't tingle my emotional fibers as Bjorling's version does.  I say that as someone without any musical training but as an active listener since I was about 14, and that was decades ago!

I feel the same about some of Uchida's performances.  Few musicians bring the same emotional response for me as her playing.

BTW, as an audio hobbyist I loved your comment "I have the greatest 15K system in the world and it only cost me 45K !"  I may have to quote that among a few friends. ;^)

Thanks pryso, it sounds funny but it’s da truth or close to it anyway .

Re; no musical training . In Berlin my neighbor was a player in one of
the best German orchestras , the Berlin R.I.A.S .
My wife was in a near mother-daughter relationship with her.
As we lived only 3 blocks  from their hall I often was privy to conversations
 of many players in her house .
One said to me , "I envy you advanced listeners , I'm too busy listening to how
my part is being played  to just enjoy the music , "

Though I am envious of artists being able to produce music, I really couldn't envision being one.
B

As a casual and mediocre musician (piano and classical singing) you appreciate the great artists even more and become a lot more critical of the rest. This is bad since it change your focus from music appreciation to being a critic and those two do not go together unless you hit nirvana.

I've heard Pollini in Symphony hall in Chicago playing  Schumann's "Kreisleriana" in 2001 and that was a Nirvana moment. Also heard Hvorostovsky sing the " Cortigiani, vil razza dannata" from Rigoletto with piano accompaniment also in the Chicago Symphony hall. Another nirvana moment. These moments are the exception and not the norm.

I think that is why I enjoy rock, pop and jazz a lot as well, since I'm critical but not from a classical music training back ground.

schubert, I expected my admission about lack of musical training would be well understood.  I don't have much basis for technical evaluation in comparing performances.  So I rely on emotional reaction, along with memories of other performances of the same music which is where personal preferences come to play.  Offered just to be clear.

Since music is an emotional instinct that sounds pretty normal to me .

As I said , my technical is small but after attending over 2,000 concerts in last 50 years you get a fairly good idea what’s what .
I’ll listen to anybody who plays with passion , and passion can be cold, hot and in between , sometimes a college kid in senior recital is more moving than a world-class jet-set musician who Is mailing it in Twin-Cities .

Not a knock on them , they don’t control the music business etc .

As a trained musician, who started studying piano at the age of six, I can tell you that music is something that is perceived not as much by training, as by listening.
I separate the two.  I started LISTENING to all kinds of music as a pre-teen, not just piano repertoire.  Not to be boastful, but that set me apart from the majority of Juilliard pianists who perceived music through their fingers.  At many Juilliard student recitals, little in the way of musical communication was present.  (That was years ago, the standards may be higher today.)
The point is that music is an aural art, not a technical one when it comes to appreciation. Even musical analysis, which can help you “understand” the music, cannot tell you how to you FEEL it.  There are music professors who have orgasms over the intricacies of musical structure, who often don’t get the point which, of course is COMMUNICATION.
So, I feel on equal footing with those who love music but don’t have musical training.

It's too bad that children aren't given a chance to listen to live music when they are young. I think it would foster a greater appreciation of what music is and how it got there.
How I came to love Classical is beyond me. Like rvpiano, it 'spoke' to me, despite my parents thinking I was nuts.
B

gdnrbob, that’s mandatory in Finnish Schools which are # 1 in the world .
Were about where we are, about# 28, 30 years ago, but music, no homework and a few
other like things have made Finnish kids LOVE school , you love, you learn !

Also, in Finland it’s harder to get into the Primary Education School than in
the Medical School . Only their very best they have for the kids .

To get back to Mahler. I have to admit to out and out disliking him at first. Much like the great Decca classical producer John Culshaw who worked with the greatest conductors on some of the most famous recordings who refused to produce records of his music because listening to it made him ill. I am not making this up.

Through time my feelings have changed and though still not one of my favorite composers may I recommend one of the all time great recordings if excellent mono is acceptable? Dimitri Mitropoulos and Minneapolis doing the Titan on Masterworks Heritage. If you have any interest in classical symphonic music at all this must be heard. Just maybe not on an audiophile system if you have a second one more forgiving of older mono recordings.

Just listening to three symphonies (35,36,38) by the miracle that is Mozart.
Whereas, arguably, Haydn may be the better symphonist, and unarguably, Mozart’s piano concertos are more inspired, his symphonies are gems of creation, perhaps with a greater divine spark than are Haydn’s, although not as clever.
How do you feel?

I love Mozart because to my ear after any of his works it seems every note could not be anything or anywhere else .A musical law of gravity
so to speak .

I have always thought Haydn was fully his equal but because the seams show at times he is seen as a great composer but not quite up to Mozart .
In fact in his religious music , notably " The Creation ", the more pious Haydn
IMO outshines Mozart .

To me they are just the opposite side of one of God’s coins .Their true friendship is witness .

The six Hayden Quartets are amazing. Mozart really had him down.
 
Technically, Hayden was a master. Mozart, no slouch either, had the gift of melody(-think Eine Kleine Nachtmusik). 
I always wonder why Haydn couldn't write piano concertos as good as Mozart? His horn concerto is unbelievable.

B

 Haydn had a great feel for melody.
Check out his Op. 71 Quartets,  the "Emperor" in particular , as achingly beautiful melodies as ever were written . Or his Lark" Op .64(No.5) which along with No.6 are to die for .

toleftears;

            To start with , Bruckner 8  /Gunter Wand/ Berlin Phil . on RCA
Absolutely fabulous with a German Conductor the Germans hold in high esteem.
Wand did perhaps an even better 8 with the North German RSO on RCA .
Never can make up mind and don't try very hard .

















the

Found the NGRSO 8 coupled with the 9th for cheaper than the 8th on its own.  Added to cart.

Let us  know what you think of it .
Your opinions are respected .

I heard the Phenom Chinese violinist Tianwa Yang play the LvB Violin Cnt.
just now on the PBS "Performance Today " show with Buffalo Phil.under
JoAnn Falleta .

It’s one thing for the audience to jump up and roar in SO, another if EVERYONE in the band joins in !
I’ve mentioned her before, but guys , this young lady is the REAL deal and if you miss her you’re doing yourself a musical disservice , a big one .

I just checked Tianwa out on Amazon.  She has quite a discography on Naxos.
At your urging, I ordered her Sarasate set.

Thanks , rvp., If you aren’t taken with her I’ll buy them off you for what you paid + shipping . Was about to order them myself .

I've been sitting here trying to think of someone who mesh's technique with  just the right tone, tempo,and volume etc that the music at hands requires and closest I can think of is Julia Fisher . But to my hears she is even better ,(gulp) .

No need to pay me back.  
If I had a dollar for every dud I bought, I’d have enough for a new system!
Not that I expect her to be a dud.  You have excellent taste.

I love Sarasate’s violin pieces. Years ago, I had an LP of Ruggiero Ricci playing many of them with his teacher Louis Persinger at the piano.
Very attractive repertoire.

Oh yes. I had forgotten that , I remember I had quite a few Ricci back in the
day. I know I had a Sarasate or two but can’t remember the music so will be new to me . Can’t wait .

I ordered the whole Naxos box , they have done so much for Classical Music I try to buy from them If possible .


I also ordered a Sarasate from my beloved Julia Fisher as well to see if I’m hallucinating . I know he is a favorite of hers.
.

Well, I finally (hopefully) got my NuForce amps back from repair and my system seems to be in balance again.
What an ordeal!!!

Not an easy hobby , sometimes I think I should have stuck with stamps .

I agree.  The early Tilson Thomas recording is spectacular and a great performance as well

Agree to what, tzh21y ?

The Gershwin recording, perhaps

I have an old DG recording of the Tchaikovsky 1st symphony with the BSO which I think is one of the finest Tilson Thomas recordings. I recall he did some weird quadrophonic recording of Gershwin.

I think TT is one of those conductors, like Stokowski, who takes a hand in the final product of a recording — spends some time in the control room.  I’ve found that many of his recordings sound very natural.
Stokowski would do all sorts of weird things (like boosting the bass) that might not sound natural, but sounded very good nonetheless.

Schubert,

I’m sorry I gave up stamp collecting as well.
My system has given me, by turns, agony and ecstasy.
Sometimes within the same day!

I'll tell my deepest dark secret, I often gets as excited in my car over
music with speakers that cost Nissan a cool 10 bucks for the four of
them as I do with my system .

Well, there was that girl in Baltimore .............................

Without the craziness of HiFi-mania, I generally get more consistently involved in the MUSIC with the car radio than with my set.  Oh well........

And yes, there was that girl ..................

rvpiano,

Please try the Nocturnes with Monteux again now that you have your preferred system back up and running. I'd like to get your opinion.

To me, that Nocturnes recording is one of the few most neglected recordings from Golden era RCA. It never received a Classic Records or similar audiophile reissue on LP. Same for the West Side Story and Porgy and Bess Suites with Bennett conducting, and the Wagner Munch on RCA Victrola.

rvpiano,

I just reread an earlier post in which you describe the differences between those whose focus was listening vs. playing music, specifically piano music. I listened for many years before taking piano lessons. It took me about 5 years of lessons and intense practice as an adult to convince myself that I'd NEVER be able to produce from a piano what I was hearing in my head. Even the "easy" pieces were far beyond my ability to recreate them as I wished, and only served to demonstrate that there really are no easy pieces. They may be easy to hit all the notes, but to extract the music that lies within is another matter altogether. Humbling.

kef-lover,

i hear much much more in the recording now than I heard before.
my opinion still is that it is gorgeous .

kef-lover,

I couldn’t agree with you more.
First of all, I can tell you from my years of experience teaching, it’s just about all but impossible for even the most intelligent and musical adult to take up the piano and be able to fluently play it.  You are to be congratulated for trying such a difficult task.  And yes, even if you get the notes, the mastery needed for extracting the music is daunting.
It can be a very frustrating experience, but if you enjoy it, it’s worth the effort just to see how the music works.

rvpiano, 

Yes, there is much to be said for the magical experience of having the notes under one's fingers. Kind of like walking on holy ground. Over a period of time though, my lack of ability overshadowed the experience and ultimately left me feeling overwhelmed.

As far as the Nocturnes, is there still an issue with the balance? As far as sound quality, how do you feel it stacks up against other RCAs from the period?

I find I enjoy listening to students, and non professional musicians.
Even though it may not be up to Horowitz standard, it is still interesting.
I also hear what the composer was trying to convey, and make me appreciate the music all the more.
It also gives me greater appreciation for the talent that Horowitz (or any professional musician) offers.
B

rvpiano,

I also wanted to ask if you've seen the videos of "Bolet Encounters Rachmaninoff"? It's basically a master class by Bolet on the Rach 3 with 6 very accomplished pianists, one of whom is Barry Douglass. It originally aired on PBS probably 25 or more years ago. I've always thought that this was the best program I've ever seen about classical music. It actually got to the issue of interpretation and the decisions that are, or should be, before the musicians.
Aside from Bolet's many thoughtful critiques and insights, I've always marvelled at the contrast between his playing of some of the passages and the same passage as played by one of his students. While initially I may have been impressed by the apparent virtuosity of the student, it became apparent almost immediately that the music seemed to be literally pouring out of Bolet's hands when he played. The focus no longer became virtuosity or technique, at least not as I had thought of it up to that time. For me it was a fascinating program. If you haven't seen it, you can look it up on YouTube. Given your background, I'd be very interested in your impressions. Thanks.

Strangely enough, even though the balance of my system has been perfect on almost all my CDs and records, there is still a predominance of the right channel in the Nocturnes.  So much so that I began to worry that the problem had returned.
But not so, it was fine on other CDs. 
It’s probably my set, but to be honest, on my system, the sound of the Nocturnes, although quite good, doesn’t quite match the best of the RCA’s such as the best  Reiners and Munches. Of course,  It has everything to do with the imbalance I’m hearing.  Without that imbalance, it seems to be a superior sounding CD.
 

Kef_lover,

Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll look it up.
Bolet was quite a pianist!