Classical Music for Aficionados


I would like to start a thread, similar to Orpheus’ jazz site, for lovers of classical music.
I will list some of my favorite recordings, CDs as well as LP’s. While good sound is not a prime requisite, it will be a consideration.
  Classical music lovers please feel free to add to my lists.
Discussion of musical and recording issues will be welcome.

I’ll start with a list of CDs.  Records to follow in a later post.

Berlioz: Symphonie Fantastique.  Chesky  — Royal Phil. Orch.  Freccia, conductor.
Mahler:  Des Knaben Wunderhorn.  Vanguard Classics — Vienna Festival Orch. Prohaska, conductor.
Prokofiev:  Scythian Suite et. al.  DG  — Chicago Symphony  Abbado, conductor.
Brahms: Symphony #1.  Chesky — London Symph. Orch.  Horenstein, conductor.
Stravinsky: L’Histoire du Soldat. HDTT — Ars Nova.  Mandell, conductor.
Rachmaninoff: Symphonic Dances. Analogue Productions. — Dallas Symph Orch. Johanos, cond.
Respighi: Roman Festivals et. al. Chesky — Royal Phil. Orch. Freccia, conductor.

All of the above happen to be great sounding recordings, but, as I said, sonics is not a prerequisite.


128x128rvpiano
and yes, I am big fan of Nikolayeva, well aware of her closeness to Shostakovich.I have lots of her prizewinning Bach, also Beethoven, Schumann, Prokofievand of course the Shostakovich preludes and fugues (which you mention).
A follow-on to the Gorecki 3rd is difficult because even Gorecki didn't write much like it.

Some suggestions:

Hovhaness, Mysterious Mountain
Vaughan Williams: Tallis Fantasia
Feldman: Rothko Chapel
Part: Fratres (ECM)
Britten: Sea Interludes and Passacaglia
I have been listening to Anna Gourari, Russian pianist
So far, two recordings:Visions Fugitive
"Visions fugitives, Gourari’s second ECM release, showcases the intense beauty of her sound in Prokofiev’s title work, a set of 20 “fleeting visions” whose moods swing from lyrical to sardonic, grotesque to calm, melancholy to boisterous, nostalgic to insistent, and back again. The album also features Medtner’s “Fairy Tale in F minor”, from one of his sets of skazki – tales of musical figments, of melodies and harmonies, rhythmic profiles and altered chords, shapes and gestures and atmospheres. Then there is Chopin’s “Sonata No. 3 in B minor”, which encompasses not only a Beethoven-inspired opening movement but also a Largo that’s like a funeral song, with a melodic poignancy that justifies and even necessitates some extraordinary harmonic progressions."
Desir" The album “Désir”, released on Decca, presents works by Alexander Skryabin and Sofia Gubaidulina."
I like her very much, my preferred sort of music.Description on her website and in wiki: „She plays Beethoven’s third Piano Concerto with a rapt intensity. Right at the beginning she achieves a small miracle … a few chords, woven like a curtain about to go up on a quiet paradise in waiting. She performs the piece with a restrained voice, as if telling a story. She is reminiscent of the young Clara Haskil. This is how Anna Gourari won the Clara Schumann Competition.“ Thus Die Zeit reported the final concert of a competition in which Anna Gourari was awarded first prize by a distinguished jury including Martha Argerich, Joachim Kaiser, Vladimir Ashkenazy, Nelson Freire and Alexis Weissenberg, whom she had won over by the power of her „almost mystical playing“.

http://gourari.com/biography-en/
That description of the opening of the Beethoven Third Concerto (“a few chords....”) sounds like a description of the the opening of the Fourth Concerto.
The Third concerto opens with a series of scales.

The Biggs Rheinberger Concertos reissue

Those of us who were organists in the 1970s fell in love with this LP on its release in 1973; it was a revelation at the time for its energy and compositional mastery.

Then, the LP was pulled by Columbia on copyright objections by the Rheinberger family who had not been paid. My copy was loaned to a friend and never returned; but the memory lingered.

So, when it was just re-issued as a SACD I got a copy ASAP. Have 4 other performances and they are all dreadful by comparison.

This is kick-a** Rheinberger that will make you fall in love with his style, energy and compositional fluency. No 19th-century composer understood the romantic ideology and the pipe organ better. His sonatas are just as incredible.

The Columbia Symphony is superb, Biggs is Biggs, and the recording is immediate and crystal clear.

Yes, you might grouse about Bigg’s organ choice (more classical than romantic) and the brilliantly-miked orchestra that shouts in your face, but face it -- no other recording of these masterpieces has ever had the energy and connection with the 19th-century gestalt that Biggs and the Columbia Symphony pulled off in 1973.

You might want to give it a listen...Presto got it to me fairly quickly.

Oh, and BTW, if you've got a really, really, high end system you will find that blasting this SACD at concert levels is a memorable experience; the organ bass pedals will test your room out thoroughly.

During 2012 many Debussy recitals were played all over the world, but do you know who played the first all-Debussy recital ever?

Marcelle Meyer (1897-1958) was a major figure in the creation of new music from her participation in Erik Satie’s Parade in 1917 until her early death in 1958. She championed the works of Satie, Ravel, Debussy and Stravinsky, as well as the French Group of Six composers (Les Six), all of whom she knew personally. Her fluid phrasing, great dynamic range and lovely tone are just three of the hallmarks of her rare and individual playing.

“Marcelle Meyer was, without a doubt, one of the most important pianists of the 20th century. She was a woman of tremendous influence. The favourite pianist of Les Six, she is featured as the central figure in a portrait of that group and Jean Cocteau by Jacques-Emile Blanche. She played the private premiere of La Valse with Ravel at the other piano, and worked with Debussy himself on his Préludes and gave the first ever all-Debussy recital. When Stravinsky met her, he said, “Ah yes, Ravel spoke to me about you,” and she subsequently performed in the premiere of Les Noces, and Petroushka, without rehearsal and completely to the composer’s satisfaction. Milhaud and Poulenc were among the many other composers who respected her and with whom she performed. Given her involvement in early 20th century piano music and her much admired playing, it seems strange that, to date, no biography has been written about this outstanding woman.”
– Mark Ainley

In her day Marcelle Meyer was the doyenne of French piano. Cortot admired her and she performed with the likes of Ravel and Couperin. She had a vast repertoire that extended from the Baroque to contemporary composers like Stravinsky and she left a considerable recorded legacy.

In 2007 EMI released an absolutely complete edition of Marcelle Meyer’s studio recordings, remastered from scratch, utilizing the best possible source material and modern technology.
EMI France’s 17-CD set Marcelle Meyer: Ses Enregistrements 1925-1957 has elicited great recognition in the media and has won major music awards such as Dipasson d´Or in 2008.

Debussy, Ravel and Stravinsky

Marcelle Meyer met Debussy at the premiere performance of Erik Satie’s Parade, for which she was the pianist. To give you an idea of the production: the mise-en-scene was by Jean Cocteau, the sets were painted by Picasso, and the choreography was by Leonide Massine, with orchestra conducted by Ernest Ansermet – the 20-year-old Marcelle Meyer was the pianist. Debussy was present at this event, which took place in 1917, just under a year before he died.

Meyer is said to have been coached by the ailing Debussy in how to play his Preludes, and certainly her playing is unique in its combination of impressionistic colours and timing. Meyer also studied with Ricardo Viñes, who had premiered several of the composer’s works, and she clearly had insight into his art. While she recorded the two books of Debussy Preludes in 1957 – a recording that was unissued until 1989 – she (had previously) also committed three of them to disc in 1947, among them an incredible “La terrasse des audiences au claire de lune” in which time seems to stand still. Hear Meyer play this Prelude below followed by “L’isle Joyeuse”.

https://www.pianostreet.com/blog/articles/the-trusted-magician-of-the-parisian-avantgarde-5723/
There is a lot of her on youtube.The EMI collection is available from Amazon.


A new young Scandinavian conductor has really caught my eye called John Storgards, I have seen him live in Mahler's 2nd and 6th symphonies with BBC orchestras . he is very exciting and the dynamics are explosive so he is my favourite of the modern lads at the moment. Of the past conductors I have always loved Klemperer and Bernstein.EMI have just remastered Klemperer's reading of Das Lied von der Erde and they have made a superb job of it.
Deutscher Violin Concerto - 3rd Movement w/Israeli Philharmonic (Roni Porat conductor w/Alma Deutscher violinist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zad7fkhGzzs&frags=pl%2Cwn

Mozart Piano Concerto No. 8 (K.246) - Israeli Philharmonic (Porat conductor; Deutscher pianist)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxUI4DeoWGg&frags=pl%2Cwn

Thanks to Pokey77 for the introduction to Alma’s remarkable talent.
I’ve discovered a great way to deal with an intimidatingly large collection of CDs and records.
 It would take much longer time than I have on this earth to go through them all, so I’ve found a way to really enjoy the variety.
What I do is, without looking, just reach blindly for a disc on the wall and, no matter what it is, play it through in its entirety.
 It’s amazing how enjoyable this is.  Things which I would not ordinarily choose become currently viable.  After all, I bought them for a reason. There’s no reason I shouldn’t like them!
I found that when I conciously pick a selection, I’m very choosy, considering the sound quality far too often.  This way, it’s like getting a new present all the time.
Re-discovering wonderful performances I’d forgotten about (and, coincidentally, enjoying the sound quality for what it is, more than I would have if I had been searching for good sonics.) 
I highly recommend this procedure! 
I’ve been ranting for decades that Hindemith is the most neglected of all the masters of the last century !The greatest recording of his Violin Concerto IMO is Oistrakh  /LSO/ Horenstein .
But to be honest I never cared for either Bernstein or Stern .Bernstein as a matter of taste, Stern I saw with the Cleveland and was
very much let down .
rvp, I 've been using you method for last week , it really has improved mylistening fun !

Schubert:

The Bernstein recording of the Metamorphosis has always been my favorite and prefer it over Levi and other more recent offerings.

Schubert,

 It’s funny how just randomly picking something is like making a new discovery.
 I’ve been finding the same phenomenon this week in auditioning  a new piece of equipment and ferreting out new facets of old recordings.
It makes you listen to the musical message more closely.
schubert,

Apropos of our conversation, I just randomly picked a fabulous recording I would probably not consciously have ever selected:  Bernstein: Fancy Free, Age of Anxiety and Candide Overture with Andrew Liston on Virgin Classics.
Wonderful performance and sound.
Litton is a favorite of mine , seen him several times in Mpls .
I’m not questioning the greatness of Bernstein , I just didn’t like his , in fact hated his, histrionically .

As a musician you can comment on this . I could not see how anyone could follow his MANY superfluous gestures and grimaces without studying tape on him 3 hours a day or rehearsing ten times the average .
schubert, I’m not sure I understand the last sentence you wrote.

I admit his histrionics were distracting.  But, as a musician, I thought he was among the greats
I have just discovered the existence of this thread, which I see has been going for several months now! I am not on this site as much as I used to be.  I hope that this thread survives as long as the jazz one has - certainly the discourse here is in general more informed and polite....rvpiano is to be commended for starting it!

Perhaps because I am a professional horn player, what I noticed as I just read through this entire thread is the lack of wind music mentioned in relation to strings and piano.  Maybe Frogman will chime in and help me out here!  Here are some recommendations for those of you who may be interested in some music for winds:

I'll start with Mozart, one of the greatest composers for winds. Of course the horn concerti - one cannot do better here than the classic performances by Dennis Brain, though of course there are several other good recordings.  The clarinet concerto is also considered one of the greatest concertos ever written for any instrument.  The Gran Partita became more widely known after the movie Amadeus came out, and there is plenty of fantastic music for winds in Mozarts output. There are many good recordings out there - back in the day the London Wind Soloists put out a good set, as did the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, and there are other good sets as well. I have always said if I could form any chamber ensemble I wanted, it would be a wind octet. So much fantastic music for this ensemble, much of it by Mozart, including arrangements of most of his operas. 

Of course, one cannot mention wind music without including Richard Strauss. His horn concerti are amazing - try Hermann Baumann in this repertoire. Also included on the LP was the Weber Concertino -Weber was another great writer of wind music, especially for the clarinet.  But Strauss also wrote much great wind music patterned after Mozart, big serenades. The Happy Workshop is a good one.  The old Netherlands Wind Ensemble was a great group that recording much of the chamber music I have mentioned. 

As far as music for brass goes, there is plenty. The old Philip Jones Brass Ensemble recorded a very great deal. And for schubert, I'll mention some Hindemith - his Concert Music for Strings Brass and Percussion is excellent, as well has his Symphony for Band - the greatest work every composed for that ensemble. I also cannot resist mentioning his Sonata for Four Horns, one of the greatest horn quartets ever composed. But of course everyone's favorite piece of horn chamber music would be the Brahms Trio. 

I'll start there, hopefully this will spark some more discussion here!



learsfool:

Welcome to the thread and congratulations on being a professional on what is, assuredly, the most "unpredictable" of instruments.

My favorite horn piece has always been the Schumann Konzertstuck and recently found a recording with natural horns by Gardiner and the ORR. Lots of power, needed for the natural horns that seem better at bombast than lyricism.

Have also recently explored the Mozart/Karajan/Brain recording you mention and it is astonishingly good for the 50s. A tragedy that he died in a car accident at the height of his considerable fame.

Keep us abreast of the horn recordings these days and, once again, WELCOME!

learsfool brings up wind concertos and just this last week listened to multiple performances of the Copland Clarinet Concerto -- always a favorite.

Was surprised by the fact that all three performances were superb. Rarely have I found a concerto that has received such splendid performances across the board.

And from the original performance by the dedicatee Benny Goodman, this work seems to have inspired the best in its area.

learsfool,

Indeed, welcome to the thread!
It’s good to have you.  I’m happy that you’re mentioning wind masterpieces.
I’ve enjoyed most of the selections you’ve cited for years.
 I would really like to get a recently remastered copy of Brain’s Mozart.
All I have now is a scratchy LP.
A neglected wind work which I really enjoy is Corigliano’s Oboe Concerto.
A brilliant work which explores the various incarnations of the instrument.
Burt Lucarelli’s recording is the only version I know of.  It’s probably still available, used, on Amazon.
Again, welcome to the discussion.
 Hopefully, we’ll have more participants as we go along.
I have been a great fan of Schumann since the 60’s when I first discovered Classical Music and also think his Konzertstuck is one of his finest .
I was VERY lucky to hear Hermann Baumann play it with the Leipzig Gewandhauss under Masur . One of the greatest artists I have ever heard live ! As good as it gets .I also heard Corigliano’s Oboe Cnt . played by the Minnesota live on FM ,
and like everything he does , it is very good .
I have wondered several times what happened to learsfool, esp. re this thread . I have no doubt that along with frogman and rvp he is the the best Musician on here .

My very favorite of all wind pieces is Carl Nielsen’s "Wind Quintet Op 43" . There is a wonderful recording on Nimbus with the Vienna Quintet which also has a fine Hindemith " Klein Kammermusik" .Nielsen’s " Clarinet Concerto" Op.57 is also very compelling, a fine recording with Frost and the Lahti Symphony is on BIS 1463 in very good sound as well .Nielsen, like Hindemith , is grossly underplayed ,at least in US .


Welcome Learsfool,

Goody goody, some new music (to me) to look forward to exploring, i.e. Corigliano and Hindermith which I have never heard. 

Learsfool, I agree re Strauss - Baumann's version has always been enough for me. As for Brahms, while I have a bunch of them I always seem to go to a Delos recording titled 'A Brahms/Schumann Soiree', a program which I thoroughly enjoy.

My modest contribution, based solely on my enjoyment, is Gliere's Horn Concerto which I have on a Chandos CD.

Hope you stick around, I've always found you have much of value to contribute. 

Schubert and rvpiano:

Concerning Bernstein

Was a music student, then professor in the 60s-80s. At that time, Bernstein was #1 on the orchestral heap and each of his recordings was an event by itself. Listened to all of them when they first came out. At that time, it was fashionable to disparage anyone that popular and even though several of the recordings made an indelible impression, fell into that "anti-Bernstein" camp -- preferring, instead, the "more accurate" efforts of Boulez and the like.

Then, last year, purchased the Sony remastering of all the non-symphonic recordings. Was absolutely FLOORED at how good they are. His gift was to tell the story of the score -- to make very clear the musical message in simple and direct ways. He believed he was making the music appealing to the masses -- and I think he did so to a great degree.

What is further appealing about these recordings is how good his orchestra was (an army of generals) AND how much they clearly enjoyed playing these works. This enthusiasm comes through with boundless energy and excitement. Often I get new recordings that are essentially perfect as regards notes and interpretation but the orchestra sounds cautious and does not seem to be connecting directly with the listener. Bernstein was all about connection.

SO I agree with Schubert concerning histrionics but think that is secondary to the Bernstein legacy. Check out the remastered recordings, especially the early ones. Would like to hear from you two what you think of his orchestra. BTW, he is particularly successful with American composers, notably Ives, Copland, Gershwin, and Grofe. To my ears, a number of his recordings are the best ever made.

Totally agree with you that Bernstein’s histrionics never got in the way of his communication.  Indeed many feel that they were a MEANS to communication.
Critics thought they were phony — salesmanship.  But I believe they were an integral part of his ethos.  Much the same can be said of one of my idols: Glenn Gould.  A master intellectual musician as well as virtuoso technician, he was totally lost in his music. I used to feel Lang Lang was performing to the gallery with his mannerisms.  After seeing him live, I believe he is real as well.
Bernstein was one of the most influential musicians of his age.  Most of my friends worship him as an interpreter.  He created a whole generation of music lovers at a time when classical music was not on the fringes as it is today. 
He is sincerely missed.

rvpiano:

Lang Lang's 2013 recording of the Bartok 2nd proves your point. It also shows that Sony is recording well in the post-SACD world.

I currently have to CDs that I consider to be unbeatable for both music and recording quality.

(1) Ceremonial Music For Trumpet & Symphonic Organ - Michael Murray

(2) Neeme Järvi Conducts Saint-Saëns - Neeme Järvi

I think I can honestly say that I don't have any other CDs that match the recording quality of these two.  If you enjoy the music they cannot be topped.
Hello all - the Schumann Konzertstuck is indeed a great piece. I do have that Gardiner recording, though it would be not quite correct to call all of the instruments natural horns - at least a couple of them do have valves on that recording. They are period instruments, but valves had been invented by then and were already in wide use. I would have to dig the liner notes out to figure out exactly what sort of instruments those are that are used on that recording. 

Schubert, do you remember who the other three soloists were when you heard Baumann play it? Were they people from the Gewandhaus section? 

By the way, I would not say the Nielsen is grossly underplayed - it is a staple in any good woodwind quintet's repertoire. However, there are probably less than a handful of professional woodwind quintets, at least that tour at all. I have played the piece a few times.  For another great woodwind quintet piece, try the Samuel Barber Summer Music, if  you do not know it. 

A couple of other great chamber works involving the horn would be the Beethoven Septet, and the Schubert Octet. 

Newbee, the Gliere is a great concerto. Baumann has an excellent recording, and another interesting one is the Valery Polek one, with the composer conducting! Polek premiered the work.  

Another really great horn concerto is by one of Schubert's favorites, Hindemith. It was written for Brain, who made an excellent recording of it. Another great piece would be the Britten Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings. 

learsfool:

Yes, you are correct -- the Schumann notes say "horns with three rotary valves crooked in F."

BTW, we learned as musicologists that Brahms was the last major composer to specify natural horns -- and did so when most others were moving to valve instruments. Is this true? Are you familiar with any period recordings of the Brahm's symphonies that use natural instruments?

Keep buying Brahm's symphonies trying to find performances with in-tune string playing. His dramatic first violin leaps upwards never seem quite accurate and/or comfortable. The best I have found so far is the Zweden recording with the Netherlands Philharmonic. But Zweden is very cautious with tempi and the gestures never are molded the way Solti and others do so effectively. Let me know if you have any candidates.

learsfool, I assume they were from the Gewandhaus , Baumann did a solo piece but can’t remember what it was . Was a long time ago and my brain is 85 .

I can just say that the two wind players than made the greatest impression
on me live are Baumann and Heinz Holliger, who was so good it was hard to believe he was human .
Of course every wind quintet has Op43 as a staple , but they are few enough that I have never heard it live.

My favorite band is the Gewandhaus , has been since Masur. God willing. I’m making my last trip to my beloved Germany in Oct. to hear them play the the Mahler 1 and some Tchaikovsky.. Andris Nelsons has them playing very well as did Chailly before him . 53 Euros for center right ticket to Heaven ! Lufthansa is a bit more .
Craig, what you have heard about Brahms is true, as far as being the last of the major composers to use natural horns in his works. What Brahms did in his symphonies, for instance, was (generally) to use one pair of natural horns (Horns I and II), and one pair of valved horns (III and IV). So he did take advantage of the newer instruments; however he and many others at the time felt that the valved horns were inferior to the natural horns in tone quality. This could perhaps have been true, at first, but it was not a universal opinion at the time. Brahms had very conservative musical tastes. He was a horn player himself, you know. He even wrote an etude book for the instrument! It's quite good, though not much in use today. I would guess most horn players don't even know it exists, let alone have a copy. 

Wagner's first use of the new instruments was fascinating, in Lohengrin. At first, he did not quite understand the concept, and assumed that the purpose was to essentially have several natural horns on the same instrument - in other words, that it would still be played as a hand horn, just with the ability to change the key of it at will.  The result of this misunderstanding was that he changed the key of the instrument sometimes after only a bar and a half!  So one has to be alert when playing, for instance, the oft-played Prelude to the Third Act, as the transposition changes come thick and fast - it gives students a great deal of trouble at first.

As far as recordings go, I know that John Eliot Gardiner has a good recording of the Brahms Requiem. I do not know if there are any period instrument recordings of the symphonies - I don't think Gardiner has recorded those. Being still very active, I don't really have time to keep up with everything going on in the recording world anymore.  I am very familiar with what was recorded up to say the mid-90s, but not nearly so much since then, when I won my position in a full-time symphony. Many others on this board would be much more familiar than I with who has recorded what in the last twenty years or so. I'm pretty sure there were no period instrument recordings of the Brahms symphonies before the mid-90s, but someone may have done it since.  

schubert - I do not remember where you live, if you have ever said. Assuming you are in or close to a major metropolitan area, you would be much more likely to catch a performance of a woodwind quintet at your local universities/conservatories. Also, see if there are any chamber music series in your area that have winds on them. Often, symphonic musicians in major orchestras will have a series set up to give them an outlet for chamber music, which they control, unrelated to their orchestra. Perhaps the performances are located in a local church. It is in this way that I have played most of the major wind quintet works professionally, as well as the Beethoven Septet and the Schubert Octet, and many other major chamber works.  You might see if you can find such a series in your area.  
And your last paragraph is wisdom itself , learsfool .
I operated like that for many decades , have heard Schubert Octet many times , no doubt my own fault for not hearing Op43 .
I live in Twin Cities , did live in Berlin for over 20 .The two metros have almost exactly the same population and area .
Believe it or not, there is, excluding opera, more quality classical music
here than in Berlin. Perhaps more choir music here than anywhere in the world .
And there are several halls with acoustics better than anywhere in Berlin .But , in my dotage I’m lucky to make 3 concerts a month , down from 3 a week for decades .


I don’t say all this as a homer either , St.Paul is a place I live , Berlin is a place I love, and, were it possible, where I would live .
P.S. I’m with Brahms .
Hi schubert - yes, there is an abundance of great choral music in the Twin Cities. And you also have the Mask of the Flower Prince blogger - one of the best in support of symphonic musicians everywhere (I do know his real name).  

Not sure what you mean by your "I'm with Brahms" postscript?? Meaning you are anti-Wagner? I know we have had that conversation in the past. 
To me Brahms, as a person , is the most interesting of all the great composers , I have read most of what has been written about him in English and some in German.He felt music was going the wrong way and when I read his reasons why , I agreed .

I believe we all look at things from our situation in life, a musician like yourself sees one thing , an historian like myself sees something else.Small poor example, first time I read of teen-age Brahms playing in cafes on Album notes
I knew at once that their were no cafes in Hamburg dock side area, at that time the biggest harbor in the world .What there was were a plethora of low-down brothels as nasty as there were on the planet .No wonder Clara Schumann , misogamy etc.I’m anti-Wagner because the most famous man In Germany wrote more hyper anti-Semitic pieces that he did music. Historians I studied under were the best in Germany, they drew a straight-line from him to Hitler .He is the only composer I abhor .

I imagine than when a skilled musician sees some thing in Music they judge ,the music as music alone .A historian might be prone to look at its effect in general as that is his skill . Of course , the musician knows more in his realm ,
what you correctly see as a fabulous twist in , say Mahler, I might hear as a dog chasing his tail

P.S . I don't know the bloggers name as I never heard of him .

@schubert ,
Great points raised.
Though I think just about every composers life is interesting. They are artists after all. (and, as a gardener, I am hypnotized by the diaries of plant explorers in the 17th, 18th centuries-Even Captain Bligh had breadfruit named for him-Blighia).
Besides anti Semitism, Wagner was just an out and out deadbeat. I never found a place for him in my listening.
No wonder Clara Schumann , misogamy etc.

What were you trying to convey? I am a bit confused?
Bob
Hi gdnrbob - schubert is correct. Brahms literally grew up playing piano in some pretty nasty brothels.  Women were either madonnas or whores for him forever after.  One wonders if his experiences in them also contributed to his lack of confidence in his artistic craft that he struggled with off and on through his whole career. He literally tore up half of what he wrote. 

schubert and I have argued about Wagner on this board before. I won't rehash all of it, but I will say here for readers of this thread that almost all artists would agree that one must separate the art from the man. As far as Wagner the artist goes, he was one of the greatest iconoclasts in the history of all of the arts, truly an artistic genius. He had a bigger effect on music debatably than any other artist has ever had on his/her art. Music was never the same after him - though it did not go the direction he expected it to, it splintered off into so many different directions. Pretty much for the next 100 years, everything written was influenced by him in some way, whether pro or anti, in a musical sense.  Wagner the man was truly despicable, but almost all artists would agree that one must not throw out the art for that.  This question has come up again in a different fashion in the musical world over the last year, with some listeners wanting to get rid of their Levine and Dutoit recordings because of the sexual harassment/abuse scandals. 

The Wagner/Brahms controversy was about taking music in new directions vs. musical conservatism.  The two composers themselves rarely entered the fray (in fact they were mostly complimentary of each other's musical abilities publicly), which was fostered mostly by the famous Viennese critic Eduard Hanslick, who was most firmly on the side of Brahms and conservatism. George Bernard Shaw, who besides being an incredible playwright and essayist also happened to be one of the greatest music critics, was the most famous critic who took the part of Wagnerism (musically only, of course).   As a side note, anyone who wants an education in music criticism or the state of music in the late 19th and early 20th centuries could do no better than to read Shaw's collected music criticism. Truly wonderful writing, very entertaining, and far ahead of his time on many issues. Late in life he retracted many of the negative things he wrote about Brahms when young, too. 
At least it wasn’t Shaw who wrote “Exit in case of Brahms.”
That was Philip Hale of the Boston Globe.
Brahms, about whom I wrote a dissertation, was music’s great historian among composers.
 Like Mozart, whose style was enhanced after his study of Bach, Brahms’ stlyle was deeply informed by his contact with the Baroque master.  
My thesis was that Brahms music, at its core, was more neo-Baroque  than neo-Classical.  
In his early twenties he actually took several years off from composition to explore music from previous centuries, including, among others, the
compositions of Heinrich Schultz. He emerged from his hiatus with a style enriched with contrapuntal sophistication.
  While he examined music from the Renaissance and early and late Baroque, his greatest love was Bach.  He would sit for hours and improvise on the piano and organ in the style of Bach. 
Of course, Beethoven was his spiritual mentor as well. But in no other major  Romantic composer (Reger excepted, if you consider him major) will you find the essence of Baroque style intrinsically infused in his writing.  Aside from the Requiem, the four concertos find obvious references to Baroque contrapuntal and  concertato style. We can  hear conspicuous differences, for example from the early piano sonatas to the later piano concertos.  Whereas Mendelssohn and Schumann, to name two, referenced the Baroque symbolically, Brahms actually got into the nuts and bolts of its construction.
 Ironically, even though he was the leader of the opposite camp, Wagner also demonstrates a strong affinity to the Baroque.  He just didn’t write symphonies, concertos, sonatas, string quartets etc. But one can find copious evidence of Baroque awareness in his operas.

Just a word about Wagner.  His adoption of the Baroque is quite different from Brahms’.  Brahms is more typical of the “fire and fury” of the late Italian Baroque influence on Bach. Wagner’s Baroque leanings are from an earlier period, a lot different in character.
I can not imagine any artist whose art is worth six million lives period !I think artists that can pass it by today are as morally deficient as the vast majority of same who kowtowed to Hitler .More so really in that their lives are not in danger .

Yes, good comments, rvpiano. Both were heavily  influenced by the baroque. Brahms was actually even more influenced by Handel than by Bach.  The influence of Bach on Wagner is well documented, too.

schubert, are you actually trying to say that  you feel Wagner is responsible for the Holocaust?  Even granting that some of his writings (not his musical compositions) influenced Hitler and the Nazis, which as you say many historians do recognize, I think it is a huge stretch to call Wagner responsible for their actions over 50 years after his death. Don't you think they would have believed and done the same regardless of whether Wagner had ever existed? I have certainly never seen any historian suggest otherwise, and I have read and researched Wagner extensively, writing many papers on his music while in school. 

Appreciating the art of Wagner's music is no crime, listening to it is no crime, and performing it is no crime; and being someone who lost many relatives in the Holocaust, I frankly find your suggestion that I am somehow morally deficient VERY offensive.  Parenthetically, I am also surprised the moderators of this forum allowed the post to stand, as they seem to quickly take down posts with much less heinous personal attacks. 

Of course, Wagner's anti-Semetic writings are to be condemned, and no artist would argue otherwise.  But how is the MUSIC itself made any less great, because we disagree with/condemn much of the composer's thought or actions on an unrelated subject, or because someone else tried to appropriate the music for a despicable purpose?  While I fully understand why a survivor of the camps, for instance, might never want to hear the music of Wagner ever again, the music was NOT written for that purpose, and it is a shame to me that some essentially allow the Nazis to appropriate it, as no matter how much we condemn the man who wrote it, it remains some of the greatest music ever composed, and it is not the fault of that music that the Nazis tried to appropriate it. I argue that we should not let them, and that this is a moral choice as well as an artistic one. Condemn the man, not the art.

If we do start condemning art, where exactly does that end?  Where does one draw that line? Do you not listen to Gesualdo, for instance? He murdered his wife and her lover. Tchaikovsky was a known pedophile. Do you not listen to him? Bruckner was probably a necrophiliac. Does this make his symphonies less great? You yourself brought up the misogyny and sexism of Brahms. Are we to throw out the music of all these great artists? 
Learsfool, +1. "I'm not an anti-semite, some of my best friends are Jews." A more common apologist's self serving statement perhaps, but it must be hard to love Germany and its occupants and not say something.

 I recently watched a program involving Daniels Barenboim's efforts in trying to find accord between Palestinians and Israels through the use of music involving artists with stereotypical political beliefs.  A dissonant  Jew, I think not. And FWIW Wagner is now performed in Israel. Go figure!

But, FWIW, the use of critical analysis is not a prerequisite to forming or expressing a personal opinion, whether we like it or not.
Learsfool,

In my research I found the overwhelming evidence and opinion is that Bach, NOT Handel was the main Baroque influence.
It was said that when a new edition of the Bach Gesselschaft (just being compiled at the time) came to him, he would eagerly pour over it.  But when a new Handel tome came he said he would “get to it later.”
In concerts, Brahms as choral conductor profusely included Bach in programs.
Handel was scarcely to be found.
The so called “fire and fury,” (mentioned by Baroque writers)  of the Vivaldi-Bach concerto style is to be found often in Brahms style. Not so, the more sedate Corelli-Handel concerto grosso style.
As mentioned, Brahms would improvise on the piano and organ for hours in the manner of Bach organ writing.
Indeed his final opus contained chorale preludes in homage to Bach.

I can see where a cursory opinion might be formed regarding Handel.
After all, he did write “Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel.”
But the consensus among scholars is that Bach is the man.

I know that the subject of Wagner can be a very volatile  one.
If one associates Wagner with Nazism it is inevitable to have a reaction.
 I, personally, feel that we have to dissociate the music from the man.
 I know music does not exist in isolation.  It is intensely human.
But, even though I’m a non-believer, I still think music comes from a higher place.
It exists on a different plane.  It’s as though it’s channeled through people and to people on a different level.
 People are ephemeral, music is forever.

The only one who ever associated Wagner with Nazis was Hitler. Hel-loo!

Let's move on. I suggest a competition.

Who can identify the most beautiful horn solo in the orchestral repertoire? We can all suggest our favorites and learsfool will judge the winner.

Am suggesting this because I just got a new recording of the Tchaikovsky symphonies and was reminded of the horn solo in the 5th symphony, beginning of the 2nd movement. My bid for the most beautiful -- not the longest or hardest, but most beautiful. Doesn't hurt that the rest of this movement is spectacular with one of the great string crescendos of all time and the unexpected sfz brass attack toward the end that thrills.

So you pundits can outdo me with ease. What's your favorite for the most beautiful horn solo? Got to be a solo, Got to be an orchestral passage.

Wagner as performed by Berliner and Vienna during the Golden Age had the best horns AND the best cello solo (Die Walkure). 
I wouldn’t presume to designate it as the most beautiful orchestral horn solo, but at or near the top of my personal list would be the one at the beginning of the Finale of Stravinsky’s "Firebird Suite."

Also, there are certainly some beautiful moments for horn in the last movement of Brahms’ Symphony No. 1.

The fact that those works as a whole are among my favorite classical compositions, especially in the case of Brahms’ First, certainly contributes to my feelings about their horn passages.

Best regards,
-- Al

P.S: Learsfool, great to see that you’ve joined the thread!