So I get the obvious strengths of Class D. Efficiency, power output & running cool which allows for small form factors. I also understand the weaknesses somewhat. 1. Non-linear & lots of distortion that needs to be cleaned up with an output filter. So my question is, if it weren't for efficiency & power, would there be any reason to own a Class D amp? Do they beat Class A in any other categories that count for sound quality?
Hi Guido, When you say that you and Bill use your own ears and thus determined that class D suits you all I don’t believe anyone here would dispute this conclusion. Those who find class D undesirable are equally credible in their listening evaluations as well. One view doesn’t hold more merit than the other. The verdict is a split decision of yays and nays as with virtually any audiophile/High End topic. What impresses you or Bill may disappoint someone else who just has different taste and sonic criteria. Both sides of of this issue have IMO made compelling points. For there to be implication that if one is critical of class D they’re closed minded is misguided. It just means they listened and were honestly underwhelmed. We both would surely agree with the mantra of YMMV. Charles
Charles, "We both would surely agree with the mantra of YMMV." Agreed
Mapman "It’s close minded to infer a product or technology is inferior or deficient just because one prefers something else. That’s all." Again, agreed.
In the end, let your ears tell you what YOU like and lead the way. That is ultimately what is most important.
Yes, I've heard Class D a few times. My dream system is Mbl's entry-level system with a Class D integrated, CD/DAC, and speakers. It makes beautiful music and if the $$ weren't a concern, I would have it already.
Specs and technicalities aside, let your ears lead you to YOUR perfect system. We don't buy our gear to please everyone, just us since we are nearly always the only audience.
Some other manufacturers, such as Merrill Audio, do a thorough "passive" component design around the modules... They implement highly dampened chassis, highest quality internal wiring (e.g. Cardas), and I/O connectors: see for example the Merrill Audio Veritas monos that I have reviewed for PFO a couple years ago. In some cases, like in the entry level Merril Teranis stereo amp, they design custom input stages.
Hi Guido, I was referring to the custom input stages as an example of adding a house sound...such as the tube input stage that Peachtree uses. If all a company does is add a chassis and nice wiring to the I/O connectors using an Ice Module, that is basically a DIY project...which I agree isn't bad if the module is of sufficient quality. I had a DIY setup with the Ice Amp 125ASX2 and unfortunately it didn't meet my expectations with regards to accuracy. It had dead quiet moments during songs that could be viewed as a positive or as artificial blackness.
I have never heard Hypex, but many indicators point to it as being a superior implementation of Class D when compared with ICE Modules.
Hi Charles, I agree with you, in the following way:
From a sonic point of view, there is really no absolute advantage in principle between one topology and another one.
Rather, there are users that might find a particular amplifier of one topology preferable to another amplifier.... Be the second amplifier of the same topology, or of another one.
Not all class D amplifiers are sonically desirable to my ears... There is a broad range.... From devices that make me cringe, to those that make me swoon.
The same is for amps that are built around other topologies... Thus my love for Solution, ARC amps, and some VTLs.
While there are practical considerations why I am unlikely ever to own VTL or ARC amps to power my Die Muzik speakers (heat dissipation and tube maintenance), the reason why I do not own a Solution amp is pure happenstance.
I also heard a few triod amps that I truly enjoyed, although they are unlikely to be able to drive my speakers to my satisfaction.
So, if I were to use the language of formal logic, I would say that.... For all amps of a given class I have found there exists at least one amp that I have enjoyed.
Finally, as we are all different, it is self evident that what makes me swoon, is likely to leave some other suffering audiophrene totally non-plussed.
As for nixing a class on a couple specs.... Now, that is beyond me to fathom.
Hi Guido, Regarding the notion of dismissing a class based on selected specifications I’m with you 100%, dogma doesn’t work for me. It has to be based on actual listening experiences. I also agree with you in that within any audio product genre inevitably a hierarchy is established, class D amplifiers included. I’m very fond of SET amplification but readily admit there’s a definite spectrum of quality and performance.
I without reservation respect the listening impressions that you and others here have posted pertaining to class D amplifiers, who am I to say that you all are wrong? My point is that by the same token those who’ve listen to these amplifiers and rejected them on sonic/musical grounds have simply expressed themselves openly. I’ll make it a point to hear a Jeff Rowland class D amp based on your genuine enthusiasm. It could certainly be better than the Mola Mola amplifier I’ve heard a couple of times. Charles
GDHAL: The 1600 watts is peak rms power, not continuous. Plus, with computer regulated power supplies, my 3 amplifiers, each rated at 1500 watts input, can all fill at once at turn on, on a 30 amp circuit. That is 4500 actual watts divided by 120 volts = 37.5 amps, but only if I had totally unregulated power supplies.
Consider CD's. In the early days, about all audiophiles who did not sell CD players said they were inferior, and they were. Great strides have been made, and there are truly excellent players now. I have never met a person who had tens of thousands of dollars invested in TT's and LP's, and who claimed That records sound better, who had a comparably priced CD player to compare to his beloved pieces of plastic with a needle scratching the surface to make sound, from century old technology. Class D will ultimately evolve and improve. Personally, I haven't heard it yet, but that does not mean it does not exist.
Fascinating... Looks like my last post has dematerialized. I was not aware that what I write is so controversial. Oh well...
To Charles, Mola Mola is a very fine amp, but it might not constitute the "last word" in the application of NCore technology to an amp. In the current Rowland lineup, for example, I have found some amps that I prefer over Mola Mola, and at least one that I like less. E.g. My M925 monos and the M825 stereo are in the top range of my preferred amps, together with Solution and ARC reference amplifiers. Yes, I do prefer them to Mola Mola.
When I listened to Mola Mola, the amp was not fully broken in, so it exhibited some excesses in transient response, and some transient behavior that might have been traces of intermodulation.... Difficult to say if the issues are inherent to the device, or they were a product of incomplete break-in.
Hence, I currently prefer the Pascal M-Pro2-based Rowland Continuum S2 over Mola Mola.... An integrated that I find infinitely graceful.
On the other hand, the Rowland M525 mono based on Pascal S-Pro2 might not be as subtle as Mola Mola.
Note that I have not listened yet to the Rowland M125 bridgeable amp, nor to the Daemon super-integrated... I have heard wonderful things about them, but have no direct experience.
I think a special niche for Class D, where it offers undeniable unique benefits that support better sound quality, is as a more practical alternative to traditional big heavy expensive monster amps when lots of power and current is beneficial to drive certain speakers to their max.
That is what led to my foray into Class D. I got the 500 w/ch Bel canto ref1000m amps as my all out assault to drive my big OHm F5s to the max and that has worked out in spades.
There are other practical options in most other cases.
For example, the Bel Canto C5i 60 w/ch integrated I use on my smaller system does it all and the sound is the cats meow (very hard to fault) in that app as well, but there are many amps of many designs in the same power class that can work out just fine there as well. So not as clear a choice there. The C5i does have the other advantages of value (especially used), compact size and manageability, and versatility (includes dac and phone in a package smaller than a shoe box which also has the form factor to fit easily into the rack where it must live).
I would not expect someone who finds set sound to be most appealing to be allured by a Class D amp. It might approach the sound of a set if done a certain way but there is no value in replacing a good SET system with Class D if the SET checks all ones boxes. If volume/macrodynamics is of concern given SET amps low power output the solution is more efficient speakers, not a more efficient amp. A change in amp will likely trigger or necessitate a change in speakers and other things as well, a major ripple effect.
I would see merit perhaps in maintaining two unqiue systems with unique strengths and technical approaches, one SET and one CLass D or similar. That’s an experiment I have on my bucket list still. But frankly the C5i has worked out great and pushed that off for now a bit until such time I have ability or desire to pursue perhaps a third system just to see.
Mapman, I looked into Class D as I can no longer deal with heavy amps. (back issues) My all in one Lyngdorf weights about 20 pounds. I still have one tube amp that I use on occasion with the Lyngdorf. When my tube amp is being used I use the pre, dac and room correction portion of my Lyngdorf as the front end. I can compare the Lyngdorf amplification to my tube amp. The Lyngdorf is better overall and does not impart a particular sound that I would define as SS, PP tube, or SET tube. It just sounds right.
I just enjoy working on point to point wired tube gear and like the look and feel of tube gear. My love for tube gear is probably more emotional and tactile than sonically based. At least this is now true based on the wonderful sound quality of the Lyngdorf.
The neat thing is the Lyngdorf's room correction passes the ideal signal through my tube amp making it perform better than it would normally.
Like you mentioned, I am now able to enjoy Class H and tube amplification in the same room, with the same gear, when I choose. Not two systems, but two options which is fun.
Does anybody know what causes the dead silences in songs that is a characteristic of Class D? Is it the output filter or dead time? I really noticed this with my Ice Module and couldn’t figure out if the amp wasn’t allowing for the music to decay or if it was something else causing the inky blackness.
It’s just dead quiet ie very low noise floor seemingly. Not sure why or how. Its a characteristic of both my BEl Canto Class D amps, but is especially noticeable with the all digital C5i integrated (no tubes upstream).
Lots of good discussion here. Going back to OP, I would simply answer that there are few really good reasons to own any amp other than sound.
Like others, I've owned and / or auditioned solid state, single ended, push-pull, OTL, Class A & A/B. Some behemoths, some hibachis. If the sound was good, I never spent much time thinking about efficiency, heat, form factor, etc.
I had a chance to audition Merrill Thor and Veritas and the sound convinced me. Both were better than anything I've heard before. I bought the Veritas and could not be happier, but the performance to price point on the Thor is simply incredible. Yeah, it's nice that the Class D amps are small, cool, efficient,etc, but in my experience there was no trade off in sonics - only improvement.
I think it's more likely that taste may vary (YTMV) and that's OK. But if you value open, relaxed, quiet, highly dynamic with expansive soundstage, there is no reason IMO not to investigate Class D amplification.
It looks like Merrill is taking Hypex modules, putting them in beautiful cases with Cardas wiring, Cardas connectors, custom house brand power cable, & stillpoint feet...and putting a seal on the bottom of the case saying the warranty is void if the case is opened. Then their Veritas & Thor amps get reviewed and the reviewers claim that the sound is as good as amps costing 2-3 times as much. I don't doubt that Hypex is state of the art, but these appear to be clone amplifiers.
seanhesist I wouldn't call Merrill amps clones. It’s like baking a cake, taking ingredients and doing your
own implementation to get the taste/sound you want. I know Merrill also uses high end
fuses and yes I’ve heard them and they are super sounding amps. I could not
detect any faults but will say it was mated to a tube pre-amp which can make or
break the sound of some class D amps IMO. I'm now a believer.
Actually, it’s more like frosting a cake that someone else baked.
When I owned the Atsah’s (same Hypex Ncore modules as the Veritas, also in milled aluminum boxes) I had the opportunity to try different wiring harnesses between boards and from the boards to the binding posts. I tried high quality wire from Harmonic Technology (individually insulated multiple strands of OCC copper), Jupiter (high quality copper in cotton) and others and the differences between changing about 5 inches of wire did not even approach the difference between chocolate and vanilla frosting on the cake. I agree Cardas wire is good (I have Lundahl transformers using Cardas wire that sound very good) but I doubt it changes the basic signature of the amplifiers, and certainly no more than changing speaker cables.
One thing Merrill does that I like is they apparently (not confirmed because I know of no posted pictures of the insides of Merrill’s amps) solder the wire directly to the boards rather than use the generic plastic connectors intended for the Hypex boards. However, I would have an issue owning a component where the manufacturer is so concerned with people looking at how it is constructed that they would not allow the end-user/owner to even open the box to change the fuse.
seanheis1, while most newer class D amps are incredibly quiet, -- as in having no background noise -- foreshortened decay or "ead and opaque leadden silence around the note is not the sign of any good amp, unless a track was created synthetically and not from a live recording, in which case, no amp can ;be imputed with wrong doing.
Rather, a good amp, and so much so a good class D amp, is expected to give you what is sometimes called the "sound of the living Silence", that is the natural decay of notes, and the unavoidable ambient cues characteristic of all venues, except for anecoic chambers.
Adding some more info about the Bel Canto REF1000 Mk.2. John Stronczer of Bel Canto added a custom input stage which elevated the input impedance from 8K Ohms to 100K Ohms, to make the amp compatible with those tubed pres that exhibit high output impedance.... As a side benefit, the amp also became much sweeter, immune from audible intermodulation in the treble, and... Quieter to boot.
Quite some years ago, I purchased a pair of Bel Canto REF-1000.
It ended up being my absolute worst purchase in my 30+ years in this hobby.
I understand of course that those class "D" designs have much improved since.
Still, I could not bring myself even today to even remotely give D another shot.
seanheis1 OP
Does anybody know what causes the dead silences in songs that is a characteristic of Class D? Is it the output filter or dead time? I really noticed this with my Ice Module and couldn’t figure out if the amp wasn’t allowing for the music to decay or if it was something else causing the inky blackness.
The BC 600 monoblocks we listened to were better than the Ref-1000’s when we a/b them, probably because of the 600’s multiple series up output filters. But they still had a stripping of the harmonic structure of the upper/midrange and highs, leaving what seemed to be just the fundamental with no decay and an opaque sound with larger than usual "nothing" gaps in the music.
Like I said before the switching frequency needs to be several times higher so then these output filters can do their job properly well away from the audio band without their side effects coming down into the audio band. A bit like those nasty "brick wall filters" used to do in the early days of CD Cheers George
I can understand this. I once owned a Honda Accord that started making this sound that can only be described as sounding like the car was passing wind. Every time you stepped on the accelerator, that first second of acceleration, it sounded and felt like the car had eaten too many burritos. Sounds crazy, but it felt and sounded awful, like sitting on a whoopie cushion. Took it back to two different dealers, both said it was normal. Dumped that thing, bought a Camry, and have never visited a Honda dealer since. Logically, I KNOW that Honda makes great cars, I like how they look, but I just can't go back...
But they still had a stripping of the harmonic structure of the upper/midrange and highs, leaving what seemed to be just the fundamental with no decay and an opaque sound with larger than usual "nothing" gaps in the music.
This is the perfect description of my experience with Ice Power. I have heard others describe this sound as neutral and uncolored, but to me the vocals and instruments sounded stripped. Diana Krall sounded more like Katy Perry. The larger than usual nothing gaps in the music made me focus on the recording instead of enjoying the song.
It seems like some companies are aware of this and add tube input stages to try and add harmonics and meat back to the bone.
Be careful about taking a small sample and drawing conclusions from that on the whole. I’d have to hear the same setup others have heard this with, Only then could I comment on the sound resulting from that particular setup and compare to others.
If you are listening to Diana Krall, and you hear Katy Perry, the problem is much larger than amplifier technology. You either have one heck of a malfunctioning system, a set of speakers that were dropped out of a truck before being delivered to you, or you are experiencing neurological problems that require immediate medical attention. I'm not being facetious...Katy Perry and Diana Krall sound nothing alike, aside from both being female. If that's genuinely what your ears heard, you have bigger issues than deciding what amp to buy.
It seems like some companies are aware of this and add tube input stages to try and add harmonics and meat back to the bone.
Yep, agreed Sean, that's called microphonics, colorations, distortions or euphonics, and not the real harmonics of the instruments or voice that are supposed to be there, but hey some people like it, each to their own.
If you are listening to Diana Krall, and you hear Katy Perry, the problem is much larger than amplifier technology. You either have one heck of a malfunctioning system, a set of speakers that were dropped out of a truck before being delivered to you, or you are experiencing neurological problems that require immediate medical attention. I'm not being facetious...Katy Perry and Diana Krall sound nothing alike, aside from both being female. If that's genuinely what your ears heard, you have bigger issues than deciding what amp to buy.
bcgator, it was an analogy. Diana Krall has a warm voice and the Ice Module made her voice sound cold and thin. Katy Perry has a cold and thin voice...hope that clears things up. ;-)
I purchased a pair of Maggies earlier this year, and a pair of Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks to drive them. While the performance was good, I had a feeling I could do better.
Posts like some of the above kept me from trying Class D. Magnepan themselves caution against it.
On a whim, I bought a Rogue Audio Pharaoh integrated that I saw posted here. I've not heard a Rogue I didn't like and didn't see them putting out something below their standards. I couldn't be happier and my system now uses 75% less power. The Pharoah drives the 1.7i wonderfully.
I've heard the Pharoah Maggie pairing and thought it to be quite a good one. I could live with Rogue Pharoah very happily. Great product and good value.
I have a Rogue Pharaoh. It sonically destroyed a Macintosh C-45 pre and MC-402 power, SS. 11k worth of Mac gear. In listening comparisons, I thought the Rogue went toe-to-toe with ARC integrated.
At least I know I'm not nuts. Three friends have come over and their reactions are all the same- once they pick their jaws up off the floor, they all want a Pharoah. One has already ordered his and is awaiting delivery.
To me, not being much of a technical whiz about these things, it's all about the ears. We all have different tastes and we all have different ears, thus we all have different preferences. I recently bought an ARC DSi200 here on Audiogon (the prices for used ones are very attractive) as an expedient replacement for my very capable Hegel H-200 integrated. The latter likes to be powered on 24/7 and uses up 60 watts at idle. Since I live in an area (Northern California) where electricity rates are abusive, I wanted something more efficient than the class AB Hegel to power my Proac Response D2s. I have to say that I'm very happy indeed with the ARC. It has no trace of the harshness or thinness, or even soullessness people so often ascribe to class D amplification. Music sounds very controlled and (pardon the pun) composed which suits my tastes admirably. I'm very happy with what this sound and hopefully, when the next utility bill arrives, I'll be happier still.
Last night I listened very closely to my Class D Lyngdorf Int amp comparing it to my highly modified (for the good!) Cary Rocket88R amp with very expensive a great sounding NOS tubes all around. I must say the Lyngorf has soul, body, texture and tone in spades.
nferre66. Try some vintage NOS Mullard 12au7 tubes in the preamp stage of the Pharaoh. Also a quality inexpensive power cord such as the Harmonic Technologies AC-11. You will be amazed....
Somehow people cannot comprehend that class D amp is purely analog and switching itself is inaudible. Switching is present all the time - even without input signal. Place ear against the tweeter and you will hear very low typical amp’s hiss - likely much less than with any class AB amp.
That wasn’t my experience between a Spectron Musician III mk2 (Class D) versus a Sanders Magtech (Class AB). Although the Spectron is quiet, it’s not as quiet as the Magtech. Both are inaudible at the listening position though.
I think I can tell if the amp I’m hearing is Class-D or Class A.
In my experience, Class-D always makes me think, "hmm, nothing wrong. great sound!", and a good Class A makes me think "how you can do this? what’s going on here!". Cheap class AB’s has a typical glassy haze, but I have never heard the same thing with cheap Class-D.
I own Class-D from Spec corporation, it sounds clean, plenty power for 50 watts, taut bass, smooth high, compact size........, however I just don't get connected to the music as opposed to 'tubes' amps The magical sound is only from 'tubes' ... that for my ears
Great discussion and lots of valid points. I agree with those who feel Class D is not ready for prime time - great for PA and subwoofers but perhaps a few more years are needed for them to become viable to the majority of critical audiophile listeners. The black background many listeners can hear with Class D indeed suggests the heavy filtering is in some way affecting the audible sound.
Class A particularly when no NFB used tends to have a somewhat warmer sound.
I have not heard Class D that I would call an inherent warm sound, in fact not warm at all, however if a touch of warmth is what one seeks a tube pre-amp upstream can help accomplish the goal. The ARC sp16 I use with BC ref1000m amps does this to perfection through my very neutral sounding OHM Walsh speakers. Tweaking of ICs and such can even make a useful difference here.
Hifi is like making soup. You gotta toss all the right ingredients in the pot together to make it tasty for you. Class D is a very good base to make your soup with IMHO. Where it goes from there YMMV.
I have experience with many amplifying topologies, and I have found good and bad examples in each. Class D just happens to be one of the newest, with many improvements in the last generations.
100% agree with the following quote from an experienced reviewer:
"Today experienced analog circuit designers have learnt how to harness switching tech (class D) in ways that please even those who initially wrote it all off as unfit for serious purposes should one be trained by class A amps of the transistor or tube variety. It used to be a sign of superior good taste to diss class D. Today it's become a surefire tell of sad ignorance. "
Today it's become a surefire tell of sad ignorance.
This statement is false.
Just because you heard a class D amp sound better than a tube amp in a particular situation does not mean that all class D amps sound better than all tube amps, or even that the particular class D amp sounds better than all tube amps. It just means that in that situation you heard something better that you liked between the two involved.
Heck, even in our lineup we've managed to make improvements in the last several years. I encounter people that think that just because they heard our amps 12 years ago on a certain speaker that they have a complete understanding of how our amps perform today on different speakers (or even the same speaker they heard 12 years ago....). They don't.
It just doesn't work that way!!! I regard this comment (taken out of context of course so simply as quoted) as being outrageously inaccurate.
Who makes the latest generation of Class-D? The best class-d I heard, Hypex has been on the market for a long time. I wonder how good the latest generation class-D is compared to Hypex.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
