So I get the obvious strengths of Class D. Efficiency, power output & running cool which allows for small form factors. I also understand the weaknesses somewhat. 1. Non-linear & lots of distortion that needs to be cleaned up with an output filter. So my question is, if it weren't for efficiency & power, would there be any reason to own a Class D amp? Do they beat Class A in any other categories that count for sound quality?
Like 1markr I'd recommend the Red Dragon S500. I've had mine for almost a year, and although it may not yet be fully burned in (I don't listen for many hours each week) I am really pleased with the sound: clear, transparent, very well-controlled and articulate bass, natural-sounding treble, and well balanced overall. Because I live in Britain it was more expensive for me to obtain than it is for you in the USA, but I'm very glad I bought it. As you get a 45-days return option you can really hear what it's like in your room and with your equipment.
The rest of my equipment resembles yours: Esoteric X-05 SACD player, Townshend Allegri preamp, and B&W 804S speakers.
It is the NuForce MCA20 which is based on the sta-100 modules I think? Various reports state they only get better with burn in time and if that is the case then I will be even happier! Last night we watched terminator genysis which is very heavy on gunshots, explosions and all round action and the sound effects were truly stunning with our full 7.1 system, vast improvement over the old Emotivas, and this is with barely 20 hours run time on it.
Hey Quido, a correction on the REF600's they use the NC1200 switching power supply but with the NC500 output board, so does the Acoustic Imagery Atsah 500's and the Nord One Up mono amps, these two amps are around 2K
Hi seanheis1, I am not sure what circuit components are most prone to evolving during break-in.... I suspect that it is just about everything, from resistors, caps, boards, conducting traces, grounding surfaces, connectors, dyelectrics.... According to Jeff ROwland, capacitors and transformers are particularly slow at breaking in.... And am not sure what is the electro-magnetic phenomenon at play either. I only know that I invariably experience significant audible evolution during break-in.... And it is not a particularly linear phenomenon either..... there are lots of dips and peaks during this period.... Gradually tapering off.
ICEpower modules seem particularly unattractive out of the box.... a more benign break-in curve can be experienced with NCore NC1200 and Pascal M-Pro2.... But do not expect miracles from any brand new class-D amp.... My experience is that patience does remain Golden *Grins!*
On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that ICEpower-based amps have traditionally been bears to break-in.... And for at least a couple hundred hours out of the box they tend to sound dry and uninvolving.
Any idea what part of the amp is breaking in and what is happening during this process?
Hi UberWaltz, Bel Canto Ref500 is not one of my favorite amps... Even when it was current technology, it lacked the sweetness and transparency of its more powerful REF1000 Mk.2 brother.
On the other hand, it is worth mentioning that ICEpower-based amps have traditionally been bears to break-in.... And for at least a couple hundred hours out of the box they tend to sound dry and uninvolving.
In your $5K price range, I suggest you look into the current Bel Canto REF600 monoblocks, which are based on the excellent NCore NC1200 modules.... All NC1200 implementatios I have heard this far have been sweet and musical.... And you should hear some decent music out of them within about 200 hours.... But complete break-in hovers around the 1000 hours boundary.
One more mono amp... Below $3K is the D-Sonic M3/1500. It is based on the excellent Pascal X-Pro2 module:
@uberwaltz..... try a Red Dragon S500. I've had mine for nearly a year, and have no itch to go back to SET or any other tubed or SS amps. There's one listed in us audio mart. No affiliation.
Put a tube preamp in front of it, and off you go. 6Moons favorably compared it to $8k Luxman class A monoblocks.
Bottom line is it will sound like what's in front of it, it is so transparent, imo!
Ok so I am way too lazy to read ALL of the posts in here but scanned through a few. I was probably in the group pf class d naysayers due to a bad experience a few years back with a pair of bel canto 500m monoblocks that were basically, well soulless, inert, etc etc. Now after a very positive upgrade of my ht rig from a pair of emotiva space heaters to a single nuforce class d i am ready to be convinced.
so any sensible recommendations to audition for my system which I have to say i am very happy with right now but i am always open minded.
present is esoterIc sa-50, ARC LS2 pre, b&w 804d and BAT VK600SE.
I think you're correct that the D-Sonic stereo amp (M3-3000S) uses the Pascal X-Pro2 module, the same module JRRG uses in their C2 integrated, and their top of the line mono-blocks(M3-1500M) utilize Pascal X-Pro1 modules.
The D-Sonic M2-1500M received an excellent review by 6Moons. According to Dennis, the M2 and M3 1500 monos are the exact same and both utilize Pascal X-Pro1 modules. Here's a link to the review:
erik can’t say for sure based on one or two example demos. These were about 3 years ago with newer larger SS Mc amps.
Personally I often would like to be able to hear an edge that’s not muted if in teh recording. Not in everything played categorically though. The Mcs would probably have been fine for this if set up the way I liked rather than how the dealer decided to do it.
Guaranteed the edge would be less on my OHM speakers versus with Totem or Dynaudio or many others that are not inherently more laid back in presentation. Only some modern pop .mp3 files I play from time to time have any edge at all with the OHMs. Much more so with Dynaudios in my smaller room with speakers not far from listening poisition and off same Class D amp. Most .mp3s which are inherently known for artifacts that can contribute to harshness/brightness are still quite listenable.
erik last McIntosh demo I had was with Totem Mani 2 and other newer Totems. It was somewhat bright and glaring compared to other Totem demos I had heard. Other than that the Mani 2s left an impression and remain on my list of speakers I would like to own, especially with the right amp to make them shine.
I’ve also heard Goldenear Aeon monitors with folded ribbon tweets off NAD amps and there was no edge or glare at all there. In fact fatigue factor was extremely low, towards the polite side. I liked the Aeons a lot as well.
Its usually all in how well matched things are to work together in a manner that performs well and also suits the listener’s preferences (two different but related things).
That's really good. My one exposure to Triangle was with high-end McIntosh gear in the early 2000s and bright and glaring is exactly what they sounded like. It never occured to me to consider the amps.
I'm listening with very high end AMT tweeters and ICEPower amps and there's not a hint of glare or brightness. These tweets are flat to 20kHz, and have considerable output to 30kHz. Maybe -6 dB?
I also have a center channel with an equally exquisite ring-radiator used by many high-end manufacturers (Sonus Faber, Krell, etc.) and again, not a hint of glare or grain.
They sound just like the Parasound A23s I had before. Which, while you can argue not the best SS ever, are linear amps.
BTW I have used Triangle Titus monitors now for many years with a lot of gear and these are currently running of Bel Canto C5i Class D integrated and the sound with these tiny very resolving monitors is the best ever. Absolutely no signs of brightness or edge which I have found to be possible with many amps. The sound is just lovely overall. Same true with Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII monitors I’ve used with the C5i. Both Dynaudio and Triangle sound absolutely marvelous with c5i (as do OHM Walsh speakers) but I lean towards the Triangles over the Dynaudios with the c5i mainly because they are more efficient than the Dynaudios and the 60 w/ch output of the c5i is plenty for the Triangles whereas the less efficient Dynaudios are not fully engaged with only 60w/ch.
Geekboy I run arc sp16 tube preamp and mhdt Constantine DAC into my Bel Canto ref1000m amps. Also a Bel Canto c5i integrated in my second smaller system. . I spend many hours just listening and enjoying more so than ever. Class D amps and my Ohm Walsh style speakers together are the most likely to not be replaced anytime soon at this point.
I'm perhaps a month into my Class D audition and I am very pleased. I agree with other posters that the goal is good sound and comparing my new Bel Canto ref600ms to my Supernait 2....well, it's not even close - the Bel Cantos are better in so many ways - dynamics, speed (yes, even against the PRaT Naim) and in particular imaging. The bass is excellent with so much more control and I find the mid/hi excellent as well. No ear ringing here!
I'm still comparing and learning - but I suspect soon my Supernait 2 will bo going to the 'Gon.
Since I am having fun exploring I may try to pick up a Class A or A/B to power mid/highs and keep the D's for the bass to bi-amp.
All in all, have to agree with mapman. I could live with this setup indefinitely - incredible sound more than anything. The benefits of small size and efficiency are just frosting on the cake. I'm tempted to find a Bel Canto 3.7 or similar preamp/dac to simplify my rig and save some $$$. As always, it will depend on the sound!
I used to covet the Micro Seiki tables but they were out of my price range back then. I settled for a very nice affordable and snazzy Philips 312.
My system I bought while there (dorm room sized) was Hitachi 802 Class G receiver, Phillps 312 table, Grado cart, Aiwa AD6550 cassette deck ( I loved that sexy beast), and OHM L speakers. Still have the OHM Ls that I’ve maintained and upgraded myself since. They can still compete and sound better than ever with my Class D amps.
I upgraded to a Tandberg tr2080 receiver I also coveted while at tech a couple years later bought at Leonard Radio on Route 17 in paramus NJ, a wonderful local shop at the time.
Tech Hifi brings back so many memories of my teenage years. I used to love looking at their brochures of systems and listening to gear. At 15 years old I saved all I could on my first job and purchased my first system at Tech. I still remember what I purchased!
Micro Accoustics speakers with tweeter array Technics integrated amp with meters Kenwood KT series tuner Micro Seiki turntable radio shack wire
Given the power rating, the module of the D-Sonic 3/3000 is probably the Pascal X-pro2. There is also a mono version of this amp, called 3/1500M, probably based on Pascal X-Pro1. See:
Hifi sound is best when low distortion, effortless and dynamic. I experienced this as hoped in my larger room with larger speakers in particular when moved to 500w/ch Class D amps, but power and current hungry smaller monitors (more limited output in comparison) benefited similarly as well.
When I sold hifi back in 1978 (Tech Hifi), we had amps from 15 to 120w/ch available for comparison from many of the top lines of the day in a decent sized showroom.
Guess what? With any kind of decent speaker, the 120 w/ch model in a line always sounded best. Assuming realistic levels and dynamics matter. If not, or room is small, then not such a big deal.
Thanks for the link Mapman. You make a very good point and the days of 60-150 pound amps is really behind us. I would love to hear this amp on my 90db efficient speakers so hear how effortless it must sound. I may:)
Them’s a lot of notes in the sound ratings at the bottom of the article!
Why would anyone with a need for monster power to drive their speakers best not consider something like this? The potential upside is huge for many.
Disclaimer: I am not that familiar with Dsonic, just citing this article as reference. Do not know return policy, customer service quality, etc., all things that matter.
So I get the obvious strengths ofClassD. Efficiency, power output & running cool which allows for small form factors. I also understandthe weaknesses somewhat. 1. Non-linear & lots ofdistortion that needs to be cleanedup with an output filter. So my question is, if it weren't for efficiency & power, wouldthere be any reason to own aClassDamp?Do they beatClassA in any other categories that count for soundquality?
Seanheis1,
I typically avoid forum discussion such as this as I feel anything I say can be interpreted as being BIAS, but I feel compel to write a few words regard the discussion at hands. Actually, Class D in general, and particularly Icepower and Hypex have very low distortion figures. Class D output filter is not there to clean up distortion but rather to recover (demodulate) the original audio signal from the modulated signal (carrier signal or switching signal plus the audio signal). Please check out Hypex's specs for their Ncore modules which has impressive distortion figures, and that is an understatement. Having said just that...Does that mean that Hypex Ncore is the holy grail of audio amplification? That depends on in what system and more importantly to whose ears, and that is the question.
BTW, I finally decided and have just ordered 2 NCore400 modules to test drive and see/hear what is the rave is all about. I will definitely be comparing the Ncore to the Icepower. It will be interesting to say the least.
Makes sense that PS is using the B&O ASC700 Ice module when comparing specs. I think you're right since I found this quote from Ps Audio owner, Paul McGowan, in one of his newsletters:
"
The Stellar mate to the Gain Cell DAC, the Stellar S300 and Stellar M700 amplifiers have B and O modules in them for their power amplifier outputs, and what we call an Analog Cell for their inputs. I’ll explain what that is in future posts. It really makes them quite magical sounding."
i Wonder whichclassDpower module PS is using in the Stellar monos? I wouldthink they'dbe sharp enough to audition the newer Abletec andPascal modules andcompare them to the Ice andHypex to use the best performer. Anyone know? Guido?
Thanks, Tim
Tim, though it is not not very clear as to which exact module is being used, but I venture to speculate PS Audio is using the ASC700 Ice Module. I think the amp nomenclature M700 sort gives a hint. If you look up the specs as far as power, it is rated at 700watts into 4 ohms. I might be wrong however.
So the ICEPower and Hypex modules have a built-in buffer, but the configuration is such that manufacturers can bypass it and implement their own if they want to. Without the buffer the input impedance is very low for line level.
This allows manufacturers to add their own sweetener/secret sauce to the amps. Anything from a transformer input, to MOSFETS, op amp, whatever you want. The modules like ICEPower also conveniently provide a 12V source.
Other differentiation can be done in using the ICEPower modules without power supplies built in. This, again, let's manufacturers make their own linear supplies, or whatnot and claim further product differentiation.
What they call "Analog Cell" is just class A Mosfet input stage very
common in many class A or AB amps. It sounds like a lot of hot air (for
class D).
Some sort of input buffer is almost always required to eliminate input offsets in the comparator and that sort of thing (which is also where most of the class D artifact actually arises). But this does sound like marketing.
i Wonder which class D power module PS is using in the Stellar monos? I would think they'd be sharp enough to audition the newer Abletec and Pascal modules and compare them to the Ice and Hypex to use the best performer. Anyone know? Guido?
The useful purpose of a custom input stage on most Icepower amps is to raise the input impedance (10K to start with on older versions at least) to enable good performance with higher output impedance tube pre-amplifiers. Its a performance/integration enhancement not just there for "coloration". If pre-amp is lower output impedance SS there is no benefit at least on paper.
Benefits of improved power supply in any amplifier should be obvious.
Yes, sometimes there is additional circuitry to Icepower modules. For instance my small Rowland has additional instrumentation amp (THAT1200), that improves common mode noise rejection as well as increases standard 10k input impedance to 40k. Box is pretty indeed, but since it is solid billet aluminum chassis - board inside is acoustic resonance free. There is a purpose to that - but when manufacturer puts Mosfet stage in a plastic blue box, calls it fancy name "Analog Cell", describes it as class A with no feedback and inserts picture of the board with this blue module in their literature - then it makes me very suspicious. Not only that using "class A" is to pray on non-technical people, but also second statement is not true. There is practically no stage without feedback. Even resistor in the emitter (or source) of transistor is a form of the negative feedback. First stage might be outside of the global negative feedback, but calling it "no feedback" is again praying on the common believe that "no feedback" is a good thing. Because of all that I'm very suspicious about additional Mosfet stage used for the "voicing". We also have to assume, that B&O engineers, that are fanatic about sound, and Jeff Rowland neglected to properly "voice" it. Would people buy this amp, after finding in the sales literature, that the company just packaged inside standard inexpensive Icepower modules? Most likely not and that's whole reason for the "puffing".
Kijanki - Yes I meant voicing as a coloration to differentiate a boutique amp from a stock Ice Module. Some feel that adding a custom input stage and not using the stock power supply creates a superior sound to their ears...which I can't argue with.
mapman14,180 posts01-03-2017 2:58pmI do not have "ice modules" . i have stated repeatedly I have BelCanto Ref1000m amps. These use ice modules but also custom input and power circuitry and the price and sound reflects that accordingly.
Again generalizing and glazing over facts and details to help an argument helps nobody and is a disservice.
I would likely not have been satisfied using that older revision of vanilla Ice modules to drive my speakers which is why I opted for a better design. The original Bel Canto ref1000 was vanilla icepower (and much cheaper) and the differences between the two are well documented.
Perhaps in traditional multistage amps. I'm not also sure what the "voicing" means. Would this imply that two different amps with the same Mosfet input stage are voiced exactly the same? As I said - a lot of hot air. Manufacturers of expensive gear have to come up with some exotic names, like "Analog Cell", in order to differentiate them from competition and justify high price. Icepower is self contained amp. It doesn't need additional input stage unless it serves a purpose (Common mode noise rejection, input impedance increase etc), or "voicing" is just a fancy name for added "coloring" of the sound (at the expense of transparency).
I'm not sure what this "class A input stage" is. Input stages are almost always class A (would be stupid not to), but class D amp is pretty much one stage - a modulator + output transistors.
I thought the Class A input stage is what voices the amplifier and keeps it from being a clone amp in a pretty box.
I'm not sure what this "class A input stage" is. Input stages are almost always class A (would be stupid not to), but class D amp is pretty much one stage - a modulator + output transistors. Any additional input stage is not advantageous to class D amps. What they call "Analog Cell" is just class A Mosfet input stage very common in many class A or AB amps. It sounds like a lot of hot air (for class D).
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