Ceramic cartridge phono stage options?

Testing my memory from working with my dad in his repair shop some 50 plus years ago.  

First you need to acquire a ceramic cartridge.  Not being funny with you.

Ceramic cartridges, also referred to as crystals or pick-ups,  were on the least expensive record players.  Ceramic cartridges look nothing like a moving magnet or moving coil cartridge.  Most had a flip over record needle.  Sapphire needle for 78’s and Diamond needle for LPs and 45s.  

Not the best cartridges for optimal sound or record wear for that matter.  There is no phono stage, as we use the phrase.  Just plug your record player into your receiver or amplifier.  No RIAA standardization curve to compensate for.  

https://www.turntableneedles.com/Record_Player_Phono_Cartridges-Ceramic  

This forum is getting interesting.  First a post about an Electrophonic compact stereo.  Now a post about ceramic cartridges.   

Good luck.  Come back with more questions.

Rich 

I believe @pindac is using one, so he may chime in.

Plenty in the Link to take on board.

https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=i2v8mpol50k65o64peb0971711&topic=12092.0

@pindac - thank you for the link.  Wish my dad were alive to add to this.

The 'Chief' in his shop, resting his arm on a Philco record player table top console.  

Thanks Guys i'll pass this information on to my friend. he has a cart already its a fun project for him and his 15,000 rrecords and three turntables all with two tonearms. He's normaly a London Deca collector (probably 12 or so including mono's) but branching out haha. cheers. 

If your friend is not into DIY this may be the ticket to get him started (see link below).

If he has a tube line preamplifier he could try running the ceramic through one of the line level inputs (I ran one through a Dynaco PAS once and it was OK).

https://www.kabusa.com/cermag.htm

DeKay

He has a Nagra tube preamp so I’ve recommended he try that into one of his line inputs. 

not into Line In, but into MM Phono IN

" The CerMag™ is designed to convert the high output of a ceramic or crystal cartridge to that of a moving magnet cartridge"

It is reducing the signal strength, think opposite of a Step Up Transformer, it is stepping the signal strength down, but RIAA Phono EQ still needs to happen after that, via the Preamp’s MM Phono IN.

"plugged into a conventional phono preamp"

@elliottbnewcombjr  Maybe not.  Reading further,

   By applying the correct reverse equaliaztion and level shifting, the CerMag takes the high output from a ceraming or crystal phono cartridge and changes it to match that of a moving magnet phono cartridge.

Impressive. Amazed at the depth and knowledge of those on this forum.  Thanks for sharing.

Elliott:

The rec for running the ceramic to "line" in a tube preamp was for sans the KAB gizmo (same as I did in 1977 with a PAS 3).

The KAB would be used with a SS preamp (following the manufacturer's directions).

As a tube line preamp is available there should be no need for the KAB unit, though I would be curious to try it anyway (as directed).

DeKay

Dekay thanks for the link i'll pass it along that probably going to be the easiest bet for him. 

cheers  

Glen 

’equalized’ is not the best choice of words by Kevin, he means equalized in strength, not in frequency adjustment as per RIAA curve.

the signals on the LP have been boosted (highs), and Cut (lows) as per RIAA industry curve, so a ceramic cartridge’s ’incoming’ and ’outgoing’ need to be ’riaa equalized’ as well as ’signal strength’ adjusted. 

RIAA 'playback eq' occurs in the MM Phono Stage, to reverse the cuts and boosts that occured during 'recording eq'.

LP stands for Long Play, and Long Play is only achieved by cutting the lows signal strength so the grooves for bass cut into the master are not physically 'wide', thus the grooves can be closer together, increasing the total duration that fits on each side. The boosting of highs is for different reasons.

Line Level is an input, no frequency adjustment occurs, the original signal strength level to amps (before preamps were needed), was 1 volt. 

IF you plug a KAB CERMAG out into a line level in, the highs will still be boosted, and the lows still cut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization

In the Link, I have been demo’d Audioflyer’s System for a decent period of time.

Use Audioflyer's info from Page 1 and throughout the Thread to get the direction that should be the most useful.

 Philips GP390 Ceramic cartridge NOS 1970s - Page 7

The Modified Cart’ he had produced was captivating in use, and was enough to compel myself to buy the same model with a Spare Stylus.

I will be having this modified, by adding a Boron Cantilever and the modifiers own form for a Stylus. Conflict has stopped the Service wanted to be used being Posted to.

The same individual is also to receive a Cadenza Black to have my design for it be realized, hence the Cantilever can be the Donor for the Ceramic Model. 

A version of the mod’ for the CB’ has been done near Covid Times and the new user of the CB’s has been very very impressed using a recollective comparison to the older and original design.

My own take is that a returned thoroughly cleaned Cart’ after a 500ish hour usage period, will substantially impress from a recollective comparison to the used sent Cart’.

Works undertaken change the voicing, the Gamble being the Voicing Change, may not be to the users taste!!!

To date for myself, I have enjoyed the new voicing much much more that the original Cart’, as I have spare donor models, I don’t have to recollect to gather the info that enables such a statement. 

Elliott:

No one here (that I can tell) is recommending plugging a KAB CERMAG into a line level input.

The OP's friend can however run the ceramic directly to the line level input of his tube/Nagra preamp and give it a whirl.

Ceramics are also said to be compatible with the line inputs of some FET based preamps, but I'm not very familiar with them.

DeKay

I think the easiest way is to just acquire an integrated amp from the late 50s that contains a phono stage. For example, the Harmon Kardon A440 Trio is an excellent amp with a damned good (for a crystal/ceramic) phono section. On the plus side, you get tubes. EL84 in the case of the A440 Trio. On the down side, you get another amp. Or is that another plus?

No one has defined the terms high vs low input impedance. In fact the early ceramics are said to work best into impedances >1Megohm. Tube linestages typically present an input impedance of 100K ohms or even less. I read elsewhere that input impedance has a bearing on the need for RIAA correction. Suffice to say this is a complex topic and the best approach seems to have been different for different ceramic cartridges.

Also, I forgot to add, apparently some ceramic cartridges were built with internal RIAA correction in the form of a capacitor that induces a reverse RIAA curve at the output.  This is an inexact copy of RIAA, because it would not recreate the plateau seen in the RIAA curve, between 500Hz and (whatever the upper pole is and I am too lazy to look it up but around 2.2kHz). When you vary input Z with that fixed capacitance, that of course will alter the RIAA correction effected by the capacitor and make it even more inaccurate, if the load impedance is very different from the design goal.  All the more reason to find out about the provenance of any ceramic cartridge before use.  So there is no one size fits all solution for how to run a ceramic cartridge with modern equipment.