Cen. Grand DSDAC 1.0 (vs Pontus II)

There is a lot of stuff on the web about this brand.  It looks like like nice stuff, but personally, I like to stick to products with more of a track record. I doubt anyone here has any real experience with it because I’ve never heard it mentioned.

I too just discovered this dac the other day, Power Holdings in USA has it on Black Friday sale at present. May be perfect time to purchase as loss leader, may be trying to gain foothold in North American market. Haven't seen a single review.

Sure looks like the same process as Ted Smith's at PS Audio.

Chinese? What do ya know?

Yep, I think I'll swerve Cen. Grand for now; just not enough to go on. The distributor says he's sold a few of the higher tier versions after taking them to a clients home, and the units have stayed with the client. 

There is a Chinese site, looks like the equivalent of ASR, with measurements of the DAC; Google Translator mangled what was written, but what was legible wasn't very flattering. But there weren't any listening impressions given, only measurements. 

This may well be a hidden gem, just like Denafrips DACs were to begin with, but I'm not going to risk it. The distributer has offered 7 day return if I don't like it, but that's not a lot of time to see if I can live with a DAC, what with work, dogs, life etc so I'm opting for the tried and tested Pontus II

Seems like a rip off of PS Audio's Direct Stream and now Direct Stream Mk II DAC.

The Cen Ultimate version of this DAC is $5.3k so not much reason to buy it when you can get trade ins off buying the PS Audio DAC, on any components.

PS Audio and Cen both upsample everything including PCM to DSD, personally I don't think upsampling is necessary with today's DACs. YMMV.

It was $4.7K when I looked.

Without any reviews, likely very few will take the risk, especially as price rises. I believe I was first to take risk with Musetec 005 her in US, turned out well. I'd be more tempted if 005 wasn't producing at such high level, it seems to have never ending resolving and harmonic development capabilities.

Quick update on my OP; I did place an order with the importer/distributor, but not for the Pontus II. I ordered the base (Standard model) Cen. Grand DSDAC 1.0, it arrived yesterday

Just some early observations:

Build quality - nice and solid, weighs around 10kg

Manual came in Chinese only, but the distributor sent me an English electronic copy, rang me and talked me through how to put the DAC in to "direct/fixed volume" mode as it was in variable volume mode out of the box. 

Started playing tracks via my Innuos Zen Mini Mkiii via USB - I was getting some bad hissing on tracks greater than 44.1khz - quickly resolved in the Sense software settings - Sense recognised the Cen. Grand immediately and displayed it as such in the connected devices/DAC's window. The hissing was irradicated by enabling the "Native DSD Support" in the Sense settings for the connected DAC/Cen. Grand.

The hissing made my heart sink until I thought about it logically and explored the settings and did the above - phew! 🙄😜

I put around 8hrs playtime through the DAC yesterday, so early days yet (around 200hrs recommended burn in) but I am quietly impressed. My existing DAC is a hand made, made to order DS DAC built around a Wolfson/Cirrus Logic WM8741 chip which is really nice for £500, and probably punches above its weight, as the manufacturer does not advertise and has no retail distribution costs. I imagine the cost would be significantly greater, should he have those costs. Just for some context to what I had. 

As for the Cen. Grand early impressions: greater separation of track components and clarity of individual instruments and backing vocals when there are any. 

Bass is strong, meaty, palpable with a tiny bit more bloat to it, but the distributor warned of this prior to delivery, and assured me this would tighten up over time. 

Mids and highs have a lovely clarity - resolved but smooth, very dynamic, lovely clarity - female vocals are beautiful (haven't tried any male vocals yet). 

I'm not a vinyl guy at all, so it would be disingenuous to say the DAC is analogue sounding, but I will say it feels like I'm listening to an "analogous" reproduction of the track, not a digital reproduction. Acoustic instruments - guitar, acoustic and double bass, and brass instruments - sax and trumpet are startling in their lifelike, in the room presentation. In a good, satisfying, pleasing way, as are female vocals (recording and mastering permitting of course). 

I need to spend a lot more time with the DAC of course, but my initial trepidation and anxiety about buying an unknown/untested (in the West) brand have dissipated somewhat. The distributor will let me return should the DAC not agree with me, but I'm not at that point by any stretch of the imagination, but will have to live with it and spend some quality listening time over the Christmas Holidays then hopefully have a fully-formed view of it. 

Thanks for reading 👍

I have one, very similar time to you. Just under a week, with about 70hours play on it. 
I have come from a Chord qutest with a separate power supply. The power supply moved it up a level. I was looking for something less harsh, I have a set of ZU speakers and they can punish some recordings. The CEN.GRAND has already really helped that issue. Soundstage has improved, instruments sound better. 

previous experience, from memory, not current side by side comparisons, include Bluesound node, marantz model 40 built in dac, and lyngdorf 3400 used as dac and streamer. The CEN.GRAND sounds nicer than these.

I am going to keep this one. The build quality also feels great. 

Congrats and 🤞🤞🤞things just keep getting even better!  You really couldn’t have chosen a more different design/philosophy from the Denafrips, but there’s more than one way to skin a cat so be interested in your thoughts going forward.  If you ever get the chance to demo a Pontus ll (or Musician Pegasus that’s very similar) it’d be very interesting to hear your impressions. 

Thanks @soix 👍

Christmas was busier than I envisaged, so didn't get to spend as much time with the new DAC as I would have liked, but I did squeeze some listening in.

Apart from the observations I've already highlighted, I'm starting to hear a wider dispersion of little effects on tracks, like little high percussion hits, subtle guitar plucks; track dependent, but sometimes these seem to originate quite far outside of the lateral plane of my speakers, quite startlingly so sometimes, to the point I'm not expecting it even though I'm very familiar with the material.

There is also greater sense of a 3D presentation, rather than a flat 2D plan/wall of music sat just in front of the speakers. 

All in all, so far, I'm feel far more immersed and engaged with my music withe Cen. Grand. It's a relaxed sounding DAC, but that doesn't mean it's not resolving, it most certainly is, but, and here's where my descriptive skills fail, it's resolving but doesn't throw track parts at you, it's all very civilised, but very engaging. 

Forgive my descriptions, I'm a bit rubbish describing what I'm hearing, and the above is my best effort at approximating what I am hearing/experiencing 😜

@mpoll1 congrats on the Cen. Grand; I hope you're enjoying it so far 👍. Ive lost track of how much play I've had through the DAC, probably pushing 100hrs.

Id be interested to hear your thoughts so far 👍

Thanjs again guys 😊

I have heard a Brand New, Out of the Box, Pontus II during a demonstration at a HiFi Group meet up.

It was demonstrated as a A/B against an older Technology DAC and a Valve CDP.

The Older DAC and Valve CDP both had a presentation where there was a perception that the upper frequencies were not with a bite, there was a softer edge, when compared to the Pontus II.

It could be a analogous impression being made when there is a perception that there is lots of detail being delivered, but the ears are not feeling a forced presence. 

As a preference I was not attracted to the Pontus, but was well aware it was in need of time to settle in. 

One attendee, who was has a 'die hard' history with Hi End Vinyl and has rolled DAC's with a value of £600ish, in their system regularly, shortly after the demonstration purchased the Pontus, they seen something on offer that was worth the jump in purchase value.

The former  owner of the sold DAC purchased a Venus. 

I would very much like to receive a demonstration of the CEN.GRAND, it does seemingly be a very capable DAC and to hear the outcome of the previously claimed different  circuitry at work would be an interest as well.

There is never going to be a one device suits all preferences scenario.

@pindac You’re kidding right?  You pull the Pontus outta the box and compare it to DACs that have already been broken in and you think your initial impressions are worth anything???  Go home and come back after the Pontus has at least 100 hours on it, otherwise your first impressions are utterly useless and possibly even misleading.  

@soix I like your defensive and negative response to a very accurate report offered up by myself of a experience had. It as a report concealed nothing about the how the Pontus was presented and as it was a demonstration in another's home, it was a short lived experience.

I was not the individual who believed the Pontus straight out of the Box was going to win favour, but it did and was to end up in a new home. 

I made it known that a attendee at the demonstration purchased the exact model demonstrated, that info' in itself informs there was one present who see merit in it compared to other owned DACs that have been cheaper models from other Brands.

The owner of the Pontus who carried out the demonstration has a vast experience of DACs up to substantial purchase prices for Models owned. The fact the Pontus was sold on and Venus purchased as the replacement gives another perspective of how the Pontus was received.

As a offer has not been made to be demonstrated the Venus, maybe there is something not wanted to be presented to the usual attendees. Who knows though the invites might come forward for 2023.

@painter24 so far I would agree with your findings. Sound stage has grown in depth and width. Placement has also improved no end.
My set up with a Luxman integrated and Zu union supremes was a wall of sound and could be thin with the chord, this has helped fill it all out and softened the top end without losing any of the sparkle and detail. Orchestral has seen the greatest benefits so far. 
 

I am looking forward to the bass tightening up with more use. I wouldn’t normally count the hours of use, I was just trying to get as much use as possible before any return period ended. 
 

enjoy your listening 

Forgive my descriptions, I'm a bit rubbish describing what I'm hearing, and the above is my best effort at approximating what I am hearing/experiencing 😜

No way man — you did a GREAT job describing what you’re hearing and I feel like I know exactly what you’re hearing and it sounds fantastic!  I wish more reviewers were as clear and plain-spoken as you are.  Many times I read entire reviews and still don’t know what the damn review sample really sounds like.  Argh!  You give me a few sentences and I feel like I know EXACTLY what this DAC sounds like and it sounds quite impressive, and I hope it just keeps getting even better for you!

@soix thanks for your kind words; extremely generous 😊👍

Bumping this one up. Anyone been able to compare the Cen.Grand against other Denafrips models or any comparable  brand for that matter? I am looking at getting the base model, which would be on the lower side of my budget. I’m also considering DACs from ANK audio kits up to around $3500.

@cd318 I used own the Ares 2, but that's not really a fair comparison with the Cen. Grande. For what it's worth, the distributor I deal with is also a distributor for Denefrips as well as Cen. Grande. 

He feels that the Denefrips doesn't compete with the Cen. Grandes with respect to the Pontus II vs Cen. Grande Standard; the same as you move up the respective lines. 

People obviously want to buy Denefrips from him; they're immensely popular at the moment, but his preferred DAC, and what he uses at the moment is the Cen. Grande Deluxe version 

I have never invested more than $600 into a stand alone external DAC, until recently I opted to get the Denafrips Pontus 12th anniversary DAC. It has taken my audio setup to another level. But if I wanted to go the DSD route, I would invest in a PS Audio model, probably used.

I have a huge CD collection and a Denafrips Pontus II and would love to listen / read a comparison between my dac and the Cen.Grand, as I am very curious about the red book upsampling to DSD...

@audiofilo123 me too. I took a punt on the relatively unknown Cen. Grande, but would look forward to reviews/comparisons as the brand gains a foothold in Western markets.

I've never heard the Pontus in the flesh, so not much use I'm afraid 🤔🥴

@painter24 buying an almost unknown piece of gear is always a risky move but also an exciting one. I bought my Pontus a couple of months before all the hype and choose it instead of a (used-but-mint) Holo Audio Spring 2 Kitsune Edition, very well reviewed.

I love the Pontus (and I will keep it for years) but I continue to be curious about other dacs:

NOS type: Audio Note, Lab12, Abbas, Metrum

DSD upsampling: Cen.Grand 

Just a loosely related add on... Presently listening to both the T+A DAC 200 and Cen.Grand DSD DAC 1.0 (CenD1) and liking the CenD1 more. Bigger sound stage front to back and side to side, detailed and extremely smooth. I like the feeling of the space between notes having their own body and air, and the CenD1 does that, a quality that only my M-10x does (obvious not as well), but that's a different story. So having also tried the Denafrips Terminator, I would again give the absolute nod to the CenD1, I've always enjoyed my Sony headphone amps FPGA DSD conversion and I'm very much sold on what Cen.Grand is doing.

Hi @ja_kub_sz thanks for your post. I'm glad you're enjoying your Cen Grand. Can't believe mu OP was over a year ago; boy how the time flies 

Anyway, thanks for your post; your observations certainly match my own. I did however have issues with my first Cen Grand unit, the Standard edition, and eventually had to call the distributor again. I was going to give up on Cen Grand at this point (left channel kept dropping out, after changing ICs, I couldn't get any sound out of it at all). The distributors customer service was top notch. 

I asked him to order me a Pontus II and I would return the Cen Grand, but he offered me the next up in the Cen Grand DAC line; the Super Clock edition which comes in at £3200, for no further cost of what the Standard version cost £2500 iirc.

This was last Spring and still going strong, no problems whatsoever, and the Super Clock just raises the bar over the Standard, more of everything.

I've also had a speaker upgrade since the Cen Grand; swapped out my Triangle Comete 40th Anniversary for a pair of ATC SCM 40's, and also brought in a Marantz Model 30 in place of my Atoll IN200. 

At the moment, not looking to change anything; very happy.

Merry Christmas everyone, hope you and your familes all have a great festive period, and a Very Happy New Year 🥳🎄🥳🎄🥳🍻🍾👍

I have a question about this dac. If one isn’t interested in DSD, is this dac still a contender for redbook and hi res recordings otherwise? I have a Pontus II and I like the NOS sound. Is the Cen Grand dac something I’d like? Or is it so different from an R2R ladder dac that I’d run screaming from the room?

@painter24 the "left channel drop" happened to me once while switching the DSD up conversion rate. I dropped the DSD rate down, then stepped it back up to 1024 and the left channel came back, but concerning none the less since you mentioned it and this problem worsened for you.

Has your new unit perform better?

Customs did a comple number on my unit, like I was shocked at how they went through everything and kinda just threw stuff back in. The dealer offered me a new unit, but he called it from the get go and asked me to look to see if the unit was "retaped on the bottom" which it was and had the obligatory customs corner punch mark underneath.

@ja_kub_sz

I was gutted with the first unit, the Standard version, as I took a punt on Cen Grand over the Pontus. I tried various things, while on the phone to my distributor here in the UK, but nope, definitely a fault with the unit.

I asked my distributor to order me a Pontus after this, as I was very concerned, but he sent me a Cen Grand Super Clock model he had in stock while he waited for the Pontus to come through from Denafrips

The Super Clock has worked perfectly since, and I kept it. I can’t say I noticed anything untoward with customs checks; everything appeared as it should.

@ozzy62 Hi Ozzy. The only R2R I’ve heard is the Ares 2, but it’s been a while since I let it go. I’m not sure if you’d like it (Cen Grand), all I can say is, it pulls out all the details from music I could wish for, but doesn’t sound analytical and clinical at the expense of "soul" and emotion like I know some DS chip based DACs can do. This is really important for me. My system can and does bring me to tears, in a joyful way 😊

I still want to have a Pontus at some point, in addition, as I would like a good R2R, but for now, I’m more than happy with the Cen Grand sat on my rack 👍

@painter24 appreciate the feedback. I'll mention this all to my dealer, they've been super attentive throughout the process.

@ja_kub_sz I'm glad to know your dealer is working with you on this; it can be nerve-racking buying gear from a relatively unknown manufacturer (unknown in the West anyway). I know my dealer spoke to Cen Grand about this, as he's taken a gamble too when deciding to distribute for them in the UK. I met my distributor at an audio show here in the UK during the summer; he said he'd sent the unit back to them to look at, with a full breakdown of the problem.

But, as I say I couldn't be happier with the Cen Grand Super Clock, works flawlessly. Very happy with the distributor too; I'd email him, and he'd call me within the hour when I was having problems with the original Standard model. Of course, the heavily discounted/free upgrade to the Super Clock was very generous and most welcome too. Hats off for great dealers/distributors 🍻

So, since the Cen Grand seems similar to the PS Audio DS, can anyone who has heard both compare the two?  Love my DSJr., but it’s getting old and am considering something new.  Appreciate it.

@doni

I can't help you there I'm afraid; never heard the PS Audio. There is a good, sober review of the Cen Grand Super Clock which I have, by The British Audiophile. He mentions a hum, but mine is deathly quiet however, all my electronics are fed by the Puritan Audio Labs PSM 156 and grounding companion. Anyway here's the link:

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