I realize this will be a contentious subject, and far be it from me to challenge any of the many expert opinions on this forum, but if I may offer my feedback vis-a-vis what I am hearing, and gain some knowledge in the process.
i will begin saying that my digital front end setup is not state of the art, but i have had the good fortune to listen to a number of really high-end systems. I guess the number one deficit in my digital front end is a streamer server, and no question about it that will improve the sound.
My CD player is a universal player; Pioneer BDP-09fd. It uses Wolfson DACs. It has been modified to a degree. I have bought and sold other players, but kept this one, because it has a beautiful sound that serves the music well.
Recently, i ventured over to my son’s place and we hooked up my player (he doesn’t have one and rely’s on streaming only) We compared tracks / albums of CD quality and master quality streamed on Tidal with ‘redbook’ CDs I have. For example, some Lee Ritenaur CDs and some Indian classical and the wonderful Mozart and Chopin. His system is highly resolving.
we were both very surprised to find the CDs played on the player to be the better sound. And not just by a little. The sound was clearly superior, with higher resolution and definition, spatial ques, much better and clearer imaging. Very surprising indeed. Shouldn’t there be no difference? This would suggest the streaming service is throttling the bandwidth or compressing the signal?
i am most interested to hear others’ observations, and suggestions as to why this might be? I do love the convenience aspect of streaming, but it IS expensive for a chap like me of fairly modest means. The Tidal HiFi topline service is $30 per month I believe, something the good lady is not too thrilled about. God forbid I should suggest Roon on top of that I may likely get my walking papers. I jest, but only partially LoL. My point is, if I pay this sort of money, isn’t it fair to expect sound to equal the digital stream from the CD player and silver disc? Thoughts?
It’s simple streamers/downloaders ask the companies for it, the provenance (cat.no. issue history) of the music you want, and force the issue
It’s the only way to stop getting the "compressed issues", is for the streaming/download companies to give the provenance of anything you want to get, and if it’s the compressed issue (like these), just don’t get it. Go look for the non compressed issues or get the uncompressed CD instead if there one. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Traveling+Wilburys&album=Traveling+Wilburys
It’s simple streamers/downloaders ask the companies for it, the provenance (cat.no.
issue
history) of the music you want, and force the issue. It’s the only
way to fix getting the "compressed issues", is for the
streaming/download companies to give the provenance of anything you want
to get, and if it’s the compressed issue (like these), don’t get it.
I agree that it would be nice for streaming services to provide more detail on the provenance of their tracks, but whaddya expect for $12.49/month?
Trouble is it is/going to take over from CD no doubt, and if it becomes the only way of getting music, the hi-end will be Audiogon, and so will talk/maybe the owning of very hi-end equipment, because it suits cars, ipod, walkmans etc far better. Cheers George
@georgehifi -- I wouldn't worry about the future. The audiophile community is notoriously well-heeled. If there's a buck to be made, there'll be a way. We gotta remember, too, that analogue and vinyl were supposedly headed straight to the dust heap.
The concern is more than whether there will still be buyers for expensive audio systems. It is whether the advocates of quality audio (note that I did not say "high-end") will find themselves shouting into the wind. And whether an appreciation for it will simply die out, and with it the equipment designed for that end.
Like I said Audiogone, hello background/car/dinner music/walking music. Unless the issue is fixed, and the only ones to do that are the hi-end guys to force it. Others don’t give a **** if it’s compressed.
Excellent system. I believe what you are saying and can understand why,, although others have different results with different players. Your scenario is not the same as streaming from a cloud service though, right?. You are playing FLAC files stored on a local NAS drive, so have full control of the stream quality / bandwidth. With respect to the high-end community turning its collective back on ultimate sound quality for the sake of convenience, I don’t accept that as truth. All of us love the convenience of streaming, and the access to vast and growing libraries of music, but there is a point in our community where ultimate quality is a deciding factor for the music we key up for critical listening. Listening to a well-recorded album with original dynamic range intact of, say late 60’s early 70’s classic rock can be a wonderful experience. Not so much so if the content is off in some way. Hi Roxy, by the way I like your idea of hunting for old CD treasures. One can run across pristine CDs like that. At the end of the day, for those on a budget with so many other financial responsibilities, that may find streaming cloud music services hard to justify, then having a decent disc spinner and enjoying the hunt for bargains is a great strategy.
Also - GREAT GREAT video you shared. Did you check out that nirvana one I posted earlier? It’s really hard to unhear that and hate what’s being done to modern music.
Yes I hate what’s happening, thing is compressed sound ok until you put it through a system that expresses that wall of sound with no quiet parts.
Like they say "if you have no quite parts, you can have no loud parts "NO DYNAMIC RANGE!!
The quality of your streaming from Tidal, etc will largely depend on the quality of your network. You should have at least one quality switch like a Etherregen or one of the myriad just recently released switches. The switch should have a quality LPS. SMPS's inject lots of noise. The Ethernet cables need to be of quality and or have filters or they will add noise. The Network Acoustics ENO filter is very effective. It is likely out of your budget but adding a master clock to the switches lowers noise dramatically. You are likely hearing network noise more than the deficiencies of the files from Tidal. But I will agree local files will sound better than Tidal and Qobuz even with a low noise network set up.
Your CD player, when it encounters an error, does correct that error by "guessing" essentially. (I’m not an expert on that, but, that’s what I too have gathered online.)
I’m not guessing or relying on what I’ve read online. You can actually measure CD read errors with software. I’m surprised you’re making such a big deal out of this, because CD data are encoded redundantly and most errors can be corrected perfectly. Only those errors that cannot be recovered are then replaced with interpolated data, and that’s rare. (I’m assuming the CD itself is in reasonable condition.)
A streamer/ router/ switch - a network device on the other hand will replace that bad data with good data - again - making it perfect. (On this point, I am an expert) Second, data is data. Music, 4k streaming, or files you download - it does not matter. All of them are bit perfect, each and every time.
No, they are not inherently perfect. There are such things as unrecoverable errors when streaming digital audio because the user is at the mercy of his internet connection which - if nothing else - is subject to interruptions and bandwidth limitations. Have you ever seen pixelization on your TV, or heard clicks when playing a CD? It’s the same thing and it’s definitely not perfect. You need to separate yourself from your textbooks and controlled corporate environments and step into the real world.
... If you are having the types of issues that you describe on your own network, it proves that you don’t know how to configure a network properly. And you shouldn’t be giving out any sort of technical advice on the subject.
My computer networks work fine, thanks. I’m lucky that my ISP has a good network locally, and that helps. It’s others here that are reporting problems with streaming services.
And Cleeds - I don’t mean to sound like a d!ck. I’m sorry.
You can stop anytime.
But, I do consulting work and see dozens of companies a year where their provider or IT guy is just clueless. And, I’m at a breaking point where I am literally having dreams of screaming F you to someone in a CEO’s office .... So seriously, if you are having problems, please feel free to reach out and I’ll see what I can do to help.
I’m obviously not the one having problems here.
By the way, @jpeters568, you might want to bring your computer expertise over to the A’gon thread on network switches, but you’ll probably want to calm down first. Don't say I didn't warn you.
Hi JPeters568 and Cleeds, thanks both for your great input. I am learning.
i will offer this from personal experience. The digital bit perfect stream that is check in the cache / buffer aside, CD players can and do sound different in the way the music is presented. For example, I had a Rega CD player (among others) that was decent, but didn’t offer the same performance and sound characteristics that I crave compared to the Oppo UDP-205. That player sounds truly top class. The DAC section is outstanding in every respect, so as a player, it sounds different. The same with the Pioneer BDP-09fd (modified). The DAC accounts for much of the sound quality as does the analogue output stage.
Cleeds is I think correct on this JP, the ISP does have some control of the stream with respect to compression. That is what i am struggling with I think. Noise of course could be a factor, but as you’ve pointed out JP, for the most part, the digital data is delivered to the router noise-free.
Another point and please correct me if I am wrong, doesn’t using balanced / XLR analogue interconnects eliminate noise?
Thanks Zerofox, that Simaudio Supernova CD player is very good. I heard one at a friends place several years ago. Interesting that many, including yourself, prefer Qobuz over Tidal.
Thanks for the sage advice. And we are getting to the root of the matter here with what I suspect is in large part responsible for underperformance. The fact that sometimes the performance is better than others may be down to noise in my local network.
the Ether Regen is top of mind, but You have peaked my interest with other options that may be more cost effective for me. I checked out the ENO filter but it is an English company? I will search for a distributor in the US.
It starts and finished by the studio technisions and in the most cases 90% it suchs. Check your cd's how much sounds really good? They mixed evrything in the high and midrange mostly in the highrange. When i am a mucisian i never drop mine cd at the market.
I'm with George. It's not CD vs Streaming. It is all about the mix and remix. Even many original mixes back from the day, analog, are compromised. Jazz records mixed poorly with the incredible frontline horn performances one way and the rhythm lumped in the mix (Hubbard Hub Tones) or mismatched levels between horns (Miles' Cookin') or gorgeous mic'ing and DR on a horn and rhythm combo but the combo mixed off and away (Shepp Ballades). I have a midfi system, and yesterday was streaming John Hartford's Gentle on My Mind album (Qobuz HR),sounded good, followed by Steely Dan Pretzel Logic, and had to turn The Dan off after a few songs. I don't have the CD or LP, so no idea what version this was....but had heard it recently streamed at a neighbors....his was from a certain remaster I thought sounded great. Yes, not apples to apples. Now there is Tull's This Was album. Streamed Qobuz a/b through two sets of speakers I have hooked to same system (bluesound node 2) same amp same room. The very high end speakers can't handle it...or should I say handle it all too well and I find the DR compression annoying at the high end. The lesser speakers sound really good, most likely missing the detailing. Put on the Shepp Ballads same comparison, high end speakers are fantastic, every single reed articulation and breath. I have not looked up any of these. I don't know the provenance of any of it. But all of us have been coping with the DR compression or mixing tricks back in the day for years. You could hear it way back in Dinah Washington compilation LPs or whatever. Our choice was the same then as now. I want the convenience of all those Dinah numbers on a double LP set, or I want to find the 45 or original 33.3 and listen to that. Same with streaming now. I want the convenience of hearing Pretzel Logic and I either let the tunes play on or close it down because the SQ is not as clean or vibrant as some other mix/manufacture of the same. It is not about the gear. It is about the manufacturing/mixing at all these turns. LP CD 8-track, cassette, stream etc. Yes, we might be able to have our cake and eat it too if we could easily choose versions from Streamers. Then you can pick a Charlie Parker digital remaster. Or a good A-D capture from a 78. Or one of a dozen various mixes. What suits your ears. The info would make it easy. As it is now, all you have is your ears to discern it. Which maybe is how it should be. I can barely listen to All Things Must Pass because I have some lousy CD issue, one of many failed remixes. But I do sometimes, because it is not always about the Sonics. If only I had the time to and energy to seek out the better version. I would pay for a streamer who does that for me.
Cleeds Did you lie about your network having issues, or do you lie now saying that your network is fine? It is one or the other, but it cannot be both.
Stop it now. I never, ever claimed my network was having issues. Get your facts straight.
If you think an OPPO 205 has a good dac (I have one) your mind would be blown by a Really good dac (Esoteric/MSB/Luxman/DCS/Mola Mola). An Oppo should only be used as a Transport.
Markmoskow,
For Pretzel Logic you need to get the Japan SHM SACD in the little White Box OR the Japan MQA CD if you have the capability to play that. If you aint got the coin to spend on those the Best USA made CD is the Original MCA pressing which has the PLAID Design on the back of the case. Those early MCA pressings from the 80’s destroy anything your ever gonna get on Tidal/Qobuz....the Japan ones are a step above but your gonna pay for them.
Riaa, just to follow-up on source quality, for a moment so as not to hijack thread, for decades like most people I just accepted LP and CD differences, sometimes one better than the other. But it took hearing various pressings of the same LP to understand how much better one could be than another. So I realized that was the case with CDs. Oh well, I already had mass quantities of each and wasn't going to obsess over replacing or analyzing each. good enough would have to be good enough. same with systems. But back to George's point, and others', there is now the business opp for someone to go root out the various DR ranges among versions, and offer that to us. I'd pay a serious premium for uncompressed, or less mixes that exist, if they do anywhere anymore. That might justify me buying better gear. Meanwhile this probably answers my wonderment that about 50 jazz albums played to a high-end DAT 20 or more years ago (I work in film/tv so long ago we had very expensive A-D converters, for the time) sound fantastic to me. I either have to replace CDs as you suggest, search databases, or forgot i ever joined this thread, and chalk up to an anxiety dream. Thanks.
George's point, and others', there is now the business opp for someone to go root out the various DR ranges among versions, and offer that to us. I'd pay a serious premium for uncompressed, or less mixes that exist
Our hi-end needs more statements like this if it is to survive, otherwise we'll all end up downgrading to compressed streaming, listening on low/midfi systems, (because it suits this compressed stuff better), along with sadly the majority that don't give a **** about listening to compression.
I already had mass quantities of each and wasn't going to obsess over
replacing or analyzing each. good enough would have to be good enough.
same with systems...
I either
have to replace CDs as you suggest, search databases, or forgot i ever
joined this thread, and chalk up to an anxiety dream.
I became motivated to tackle the project of overhauling my CD collection when I realized that I wasn't listening to a lot of it anymore. As I dived into it, I realized that this was due to fatigue caused by overly-compressed releases.
A good example: I bought all the 1994 Genesis remasters but never warmed to them because they had been dumbed-down with too much compression. I eventually replaced them all with mid-1980s releases. Genesis has shown bad judgment with their remasters--chasing modern consumer expectations, perhaps, but sucking the dynamic range out of their music.
And there it is, I wish more would discover what you found about later releases being compressed and just sounding "loud" as there are no quite parts anymore.
If you think an OPPO 205 has a good dac (I have one) your mind would be blown by a Really good dac (Esoteric/MSB/Luxman/DCS/Mola Mola). An Oppo should only be used as a Transport.”
Yes I do realize there are better. I would have to contest your statement that the 205 should just be used as a transport. Please do keep in mind that the DACs you list are very expensive, and out of the reach of perhaps 90 percent of folks out there. The DAC in my son’s Devialet Expert Pro 220 is right up there with the best. I’ve heard a number of very high priced DACs. I would say the MSB is the best I’ve heard. I still maintain that the Oppo UDP-205 has a good dac (two actually). Yes other DACs such as the Expert are more capable but the UDP-205 does not embarrass itself by any means and serves the music well. I would suggest you give it a listen if you have a chance. Running the CD player in the 205 via its balanced outputs straight into an amp, will surprise you just how good the DACs are. How? 1. The (mid-large) room is filled with sound - Less capable DACs I have heard struggle with this to some degree. 2. Resolution of detail through the frequency range is incredible especially high frequency detail retrieval 3. Sound is balanced and natural, although not quite on the same level as the Expert. 4. Sound has dynamic vitality and musical energy 5. Sound is very clean and pure - not that far behind the Expert. 5. Imaging is decent although the Expert is in a different class here.
Ive got 6 or 7 Oppo’s. Ive heard em as is...not even close..not even in the same state let alone the same ballpark. Wish I had your ears cause I would save a ton of cash. Sucks to be me!! Good for you thou...Congrats
Here’s another one for you, my most loved classical piece Rimsky Korsakov's "Scheherazade" Look what happens to the two streamed/download ones, squashed like a pancake, only one H/D Tracks used a "semi squashed" one. It’s criminal as this classic piece has the most amazing dynamics of any music ever written. https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=scheherazade
I don't Stream music, I do have FLAC Stored Files and a CDT > DAC. In relation to Digital Sources used in my HiFi System, I only started to seriously consider the media in recent years.
With that as a History I am keen to pick up on experiences and suggestions for the uses of ancillaries and the media source.
With the questions raised over the provenance of the media and the DR. It does seem there may be a opportunity to have this addressed with a Similar Marketing Model as used by the Vinyl and CD Markets.
Vinyl media has a small selection of Specialised Companies that are producing Pressings that are in general recognised as much improved over the mass produced copies.
CD media has the same type of Specialised Companies offering a similar service for the CD as the one that is on offer to Vinyl.
Streamed Media 'could end up' with the same type of offering. There is no reason why a Streaming Service 'could not invite' a recognised Brand to produce a Steaming Package, or create their own Off Shoot Package. Where the content to be streamed is meeting a criteria that is wanted by the audiophile communities across the globe. There must be a viable Marketing Model that makes such an option on a service worthy of incorporating into a existing structure of packages of offered services.
I have a correction to a make (the hazards of writing stuff without checking my notes): The problem with the 1994 Genesis "Definitive Edition" remasters was excessive use of noise reduction. Their dynamic range was actually pretty respectable. The heavy-handedness of the noise reduction varied from album to album, with Wind and Wuthering being one of the least affected. It was the 2007-2008 remasters found on CD and SACD that are generally reviled for their excessive compression and loudness, plus the fact that they are remixed as well. Circa 2017 releases by Rhino apparently use the 2007-08 mastering. I replaced the 1994 remasters with mid-1980s releases by Atlantic/Atco and Virgin/Charisma. An exception is the DCC gold CD of "From Genesis to Revelation." Phil Collins' "Testify" CD (Atlantic, 2002) has the dubious distinction of the worst dynamic range in my collection--average DR5, ranging from DR4 to DR6. Five of twelve tracks clip. Here is an artist who clearly is gunning for the earbud market.
Phil Collins’ "Testify" CD (Atlantic, 2002) has the dubious distinction of the worst dynamic range in my collection--average DR5, ranging from DR4 to DR6. Five of twelve tracks clip. Here is an artist who clearly is gunning for the earbud market.
I wouldn’t be too hasty to blame the artist even though he’s probably very deaf after all that drumming, more the ones behind him and the ones behind the re-release marketing getting everything compressed, aiming for the earbud/ipod/car/background music. Trouble is, it’s these later re-issues, that the streaming/download companies use to sell to the public!!
"MQA provides the opportunity to deliver the exact sound heard from the real master without actually putting the crown jewels out there to be stolen."
Protecting the "crown jewels" (maintaining control) was the whole pitch to the labels.
Streaming is a convenience, not a replacement for CD. You only need to look so far as eBay and the like, to see how many pre-owned streamers are for sale.
For the haters of streaming. I predict you'll all be listening and likely loving streaming at some point. CD's will continue to decline, vinyl limited releases. No wonder a lot of used streamers available, people upgrading streaming equipment, not giving up on it. We are in relatively early days of streaming, innovation will come fast and furious.
Now, obviously we can't control quality of any particular streaming recording, but then we could never control the recording quality of vinyl or cds. I've heard complaints of poor quality vinyl, cds for years, continues into today. Most of streaming quality complaints I see on this thread are of relatively low sound quality commercial recordings, Bruce Springsteen and Genesis are not what I'd call audiophile recordings. I have original vinyl, various cd versions and streaming versions of many Genesis albums, sure they sound somewhat different, none are miracles of sound quality. Streaming is extremely viable as quality sound source for audiophiles, not accepting it is akin to the analog purist never accepting digital sound. I just know my system lets me get into the music, cd rips, vinyl, streaming, I'm agnostic as to source, all are capable of fully immersing me into music. Sure, sound quality variable, correlates to recording quality far more than whether cd rip, vinyl or stream. Very few recordings unlistenable, only the most extreme compressed. Having said that, I mostly listen to music on my main system that doesn't suffer the usual over production of more commercial releases, I've long been bothered by those victims of loudness wars, over compression. That music saved for car or work system listening.
“I predict you’ll all be listening and likely loving streaming at some point.”
Sorry@sns. It won’t happen for close-minded folks like georgehifi. No matter what anyone else says, he will show up shortly with a post outlining another compressed recording link, conveniently overlooking the thousands of great sounding uncompressed albums currently available on streaming.
“I predict you’ll all be listening and likely loving streaming at some point.”
Yes we will, but let make sure it’s the way we want it, untouched/uncompressed, not butchered for listening to in the car/ear phones/ipods/tv/background dinner music. We need the provenance of the recording given before purchase, so you know what your getting. (otherwise hiend audio equipment as we know it will die)
It won’t happen for close-minded folks like georgehifi. No matter what anyone else says, he will show up shortly with a post outlining another compressed recording link
Like I did say before, there are the odd ones that come through unscathed, but mostly they’ve had the **** squashed (compressed) out of them "fully" and "partially", only a few have been left untouched (all green). This is just a few of the Qobuz https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/1?album=Qobuz
As sns sez. I especially agree with his opinions on Springsteen and Genesis recordings. At that time, I was buying first edition vinyl straight off the presses, and the classic Springsteen & Genesis records sounded like they were made to sound good only on AM radio.
Listened to some CDs last night on the Oppo UDP-203. It has AKM ‘Velvet’ DACs as opposed to the UDP-205’s ESS Sabre DACs. Its interesting how they sound different. The 205 sounds a bit more detailed in the higher frequencies. The 203 has a really lovely sound. Those AKM DACs have a certain ‘give’, a certain very slight pillowy softness that makes the sound so listenable and enjoyable. Streaming has its place. But I still think, for many recordings - not all, that CDs sound great.
‘Ive got 6 or 7 Oppo’s. Ive heard em as is...not even close..not even in the same state let alone the same ballpark. Wish I had your ears cause I would save a ton of cash. Sucks to be me!! Good for you thou...Congrats’
Then dear sir, I am very glad I do not have your ‘golden ears’ for I do not have a ton of cash to spend on more and more gear. These poor ears will have to be content and make do. My son’s system give’s me insight to ‘high-end’ sound.
By the way, the Oppo’s you have, do they include the UDP-203 or UDP-205? With these last models, Oppo poured all of their know-how and technical expertise in what they knew to be their farewell product; their swansong. I believe they wanted to show the world just how good they could make these pieces. The UDP-203 sold for a mere $600, a laughable sum considering just how good it sounds, and the technology and quality built into it. Same for the 205. Do they have the shiny jewelry billet aluminium casework of far more expensive fare. No. But they are beautiful in the fashion of ‘pure form follows function’
Fm stations purposely compress signal so they don't overmodulate and interfere with adjoining stations. All likely do it to some extent. I know some college and classical stations are at lower end of fm frequency spectrum, sometimes they can compress less as fewer stations at those fm freq. I believe commercial stations battle to get middle fm freq so you hit them as you go up and down dial. Then you need to consider the equipment they use to play the music. But why would anyone use fm for serious listening sessions, generally I want to control the music, although I let Roon radio take over sometimes.
I still have SEALED Oppo 105D's from back in the day. When OPPO announced they were no longer making the 203/205's I purchased about 15 of the 205's from my Local Best Buy as well as the store Demo Models. Flipped most of them for around $3200 each. Still have a bunch laying around collecting dust. Only use to me is as a Transport for Multi Channel purposes. Bypass the mediocre Dac completely.
Dac Chips are a thing of the past. Not gonna find any High End Dac's or CD players that use them anymore. Its good to be content with what you have. You'll retire earlier in life that way.
Dac Chips are a thing of the past. Not gonna find any High End Dac’s or CD players that use them anymore.
Too true, today’s best to me are better discrete R2R Multibit dacs that really show up if an album has been compressed or not, my MSB startles me when the big notes hit, yet it caresses me in the quieter passages.
Yes the R2R Multibit dacs do give you the full dynamic impact, but not just the MSB’s I’ve heard those same dynamics from the Holo and Denafrips dacs as well, which are also R2R multibit dacs.
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