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CD Quality Versus Streaming Quality

I realize this will be a contentious subject, and far be it from me to challenge any of the many expert opinions on this forum, but if I may offer my feedback vis-a-vis what I am hearing, and gain some knowledge in the process.

i will begin saying that my digital front end setup is not state of the art, but i have had the good fortune to listen to a number of really high-end systems. I guess the number one deficit in my digital front end is a streamer server, and no question about it that will improve the sound.

My CD player is a universal player; Pioneer BDP-09fd. It uses Wolfson DACs. It has been modified to a degree. I have bought and sold other players, but kept this one, because it has a beautiful sound that serves the music well.

Recently, i ventured over to my son’s place and we hooked up my player (he doesn’t have one and rely’s on streaming only) We compared tracks / albums of CD quality and master quality streamed on Tidal with ‘redbook’ CDs I have. For example, some Lee Ritenaur CDs and some Indian classical and the wonderful Mozart and Chopin.
His system is highly resolving.

we were both very surprised to find the CDs played on the player to be the better sound. And not just by a little. The sound was clearly superior, with higher resolution and definition, spatial ques, much better and clearer imaging. Very surprising indeed. Shouldn’t there be no difference? This would suggest the streaming service is throttling the bandwidth or compressing the signal?

i am most interested to hear others’ observations, and suggestions as to why this might be? I do love the convenience aspect of streaming, but it IS expensive for a chap like me of fairly modest means. The Tidal HiFi topline service is $30 per month I believe, something the good lady is not too thrilled about. God forbid I should suggest Roon on top of that I may likely get my walking papers. I jest, but only partially LoL. My point is, if I pay this sort of money, isn’t it fair to expect sound to equal the digital stream from the CD player and silver disc?
Thoughts?

AK





4afsanakhan

Showing 8 responses by cleeds

cleeds
6,143 posts
 
jpeters568
Cleeds
Did you lie about your network having issues, or do you lie now saying that your network is fine? It is one or the other, but it cannot be both.
Stop it now. I never, ever claimed my network was having issues. Get your facts straight.
... Networks do have unrecoverable errors ...
You’re beginning to learn. Keep at it.
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
jpeters568
Your CD player, when it encounters an error, does correct that error by "guessing" essentially. (I’m not an expert on that, but, that’s what I too have gathered online.)
I’m not guessing or relying on what I’ve read online. You can actually measure CD read errors with software. I’m surprised you’re making such a big deal out of this, because CD data are encoded redundantly and most errors can be corrected perfectly. Only those errors that cannot be recovered are then replaced with interpolated data, and that’s rare. (I’m assuming the CD itself is in reasonable condition.)
A streamer/ router/ switch - a network device on the other hand will replace that bad data with good data - again - making it perfect. (On this point, I am an expert) Second, data is data. Music, 4k streaming, or files you download - it does not matter. All of them are bit perfect, each and every time.
No, they are not inherently perfect. There are such things as unrecoverable errors when streaming digital audio because the user is at the mercy of his internet connection which - if nothing else - is subject to interruptions and bandwidth limitations. Have you ever seen pixelization on your TV, or heard clicks when playing a CD? It’s the same thing and it’s definitely not perfect. You need to separate yourself from your textbooks and controlled corporate environments and step into the real world.
... If you are having the types of issues that you describe on your own network, it proves that you don’t know how to configure a network properly. And you shouldn’t be giving out any sort of technical advice on the subject.
My computer networks work fine, thanks. I’m lucky that my ISP has a good network locally, and that helps. It’s others here that are reporting problems with streaming services.
And Cleeds - I don’t mean to sound like a d!ck. I’m sorry.
You can stop anytime.
But, I do consulting work and see dozens of companies a year where their provider or IT guy is just clueless. And, I’m at a breaking point where I am literally having dreams of screaming F you to someone in a CEO’s office .... So seriously, if you are having problems, please feel free to reach out and I’ll see what I can do to help.
I’m obviously not the one having problems here.

By the way, @jpeters568, you might want to bring your computer expertise over to the A’gon thread on network switches, but you’ll probably want to calm down first. Don't say I didn't warn you.
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
georgehifi
It’s simple streamers/downloaders ask the companies for it, the provenance (cat.no. issue history) of the music you want, and force the issue. It’s the only way to fix getting the "compressed issues", is for the streaming/download companies to give the provenance of anything you want to get, and if it’s the compressed issue (like these), don’t get it.
I agree that it would be nice for streaming services to provide more detail on the provenance of their tracks, but whaddya expect for $12.49/month?
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
grannyring
It takes effort, learning and attention to the details to get great sound out of streaming ... How the streaming signal gets to your streamer is perhaps even more important than the streamer.
That’s probably true. And if you’re suffering from a bad neighborhood network (such as having many high-bandwidth users on a single cable Internet node, or connections in your neighborhood that are dirty or wet) you’re sure to have some data loss when you’re streaming audio - and that’s before the signal ever gets to your router and switch.
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
grannyring
Again, many recordings on Qobuz sound great. Still very enjoyable ... No need to throw the baby out with the bath water in terms of enjoying the streaming format. Nothing is perfect in this world ...
Exactly. There have always been poorly made LPs and CDs, and now we have poorly made digital files. But the best of any of those formats can still offer exceptional sound.

Finding the best (highest fidelity) version of any particular recording has always been a bit of a hit-or-miss proposition. The only thing that’s changed is that now - sometimes - the best version of a recording is what’s available from a streaming service such as Qobuz.
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
jpeters568
And cleeds - you’re explanation to the aforementioned user - the ECC built into a CD is absolutely ZERO match for ECC built into any modern ISP’s network or a decently modern home network.
So what? Compact disk and streaming audio protocols include both error correction - which I noted is extremely effective - and interpolation, for errors that cannot be otherwise recovered.
Have you ever performed an update on any computer system and were able to install a corrupted file? No - the storage you have, or your memory, or processor, might corrupt the file, but what is delivered to you is always, bit perfect - hash tag matched - each, and every, single, time, provided the equipment used to send and receive is working as expected.
Correct. But you’ve confused that process with digital audio playback, which must be done in real time. That’s why interpolation is part of digital audio. You wouldn’t want to use interpolation for something like a software install, because that has to be absolutely bit perfect.
... give me a microwave or a piece of wadded up aluminum foil, and we’ll compare how your "perfect cd" sounds to my bit perfect digital stream. Errors cannot, do not, "creep in" - they are clearly identified and rectified within milliseconds again ...
Nonsense. Your imaginary, hypothetical textbook "bit perfect network" doesn’t account for the real world, where ISP and local network issues can include signal disruptions that may extend to actual dropouts for the user. And that is why interpolation is part of the digital audio protocols, even if the errors may not always be as extreme as outright loss.
cleeds
6,143 posts
 
4afsanakhan
It stands to reason that bits is bits.
Things are not always as they appear at a quick glance.
Streaming should sound no different than the CD. They are both after all 1s an 0s that are checked to be bit perfect.
That is mistaken. While outright errors on an audio CD are usually rare - there is redundant encoding of the data which are interleaved on the disc - the CD-A standard includes interpolation when an error cannot be recovered. By definition, the interpolation is an estimate and not necessarily bit perfect. ( The interpolation is needed because unlike a CD-ROM, an audio CD needs to read in real time.)

It’s easy to imagine that when streaming audio from a server farm miles away, errors could creep into the signal that would require error correction or interpolation. So it really isn’t accurate to say "bits is bits" if you're talking about audio playback in real time.


cleeds
6,143 posts
 
optimize
A CD drive and a CD disc use many techniques to ensure that the data is error free.
Quite so, and read errors from a CD that has been reasonably well cared for are rare. Data encoded on a CD are redundant, and CIRC allows most errors to be perfectly corrected.
... there is in the red book standard that do not allowed there to be ANY un-correctable errors at all. That parameter is called in the industry for "E32". It must be 0 otherwise it is out of specification.What happens when a drive can't correct a error (that is all happening BEFORE entering the DAC) on a scratched/bad CD disc and get E32.It puts out a error and stops reading/playing the disc.
Oh no, that is mistaken if we are talking about audio CDs. Although read errors are rare, they are not inherently fatal for audio purposes, because the CD standard includes interpolation algorithms to mask such errors. (Such masking isn't used on CD-ROMs, which must always be absolutely bit perfect
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