I have been very much into both CD and LP for a long time. I can comfortably say my Clearaudio Master Reference turntable (with Koetsu Onyx long body on Thales Simplicity II) sounded better than my Burmester 089 CDP (on 011 pre and 911mk3 amp) in most situations (meaning both on hifi recordings). I know it is an Apple to Orange thing, but in general I would agree with the OP. Just my 2 cents.
CD Got Absolutely Crushed By Vinyl
No comparison, CD always sounds so cold and gritty. Vinyl is so much warmer, smoother and has better imaging and much greater depth of sound. It’s like watching the world go by through a dirty window pane when listening to a CD. Put the same LP on the turntable and Voila! Everything takes on more vibrancy, fullness and texture.
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The Real Reason Some People Prefer Analog To Digital
There’s a problem that has been ignored by the entire music industry which I believe is really important for music-lovers that I think you my want to investigate. Approximately 35 years ago when digital media was introduced to the music consuming public as a media with “Perfect Sound Forever” the music industry made a huge screw up when it got the playback polarity of digital music on CDs and later DVDs, etc. in reversed (inverted polarity). On a purely random basis that means that digital media and files are heard in the wrong polarity approximately 85% of the time and either 92% wrong or correct when audio systems are set to a fixed playback polarity.
The result is that the music played in inverted polarity sounds harsh and two-dimensional. And that’s probably the major reason that some music-lovers still believe (without knowing the real reason) that analog sounds better than digital. Analog media plays in the correct polarity over 99.9% of the time but also sounds bad if played in inverted polarity. It’s difficult if not impossible to make meaningful comparisons of the fidelity and musicality of media and audio components when they aren’t playing in absolute polarity. The better the playback system the easier it is to hear the differences in polarity. Confusion over polarity may cause music-lovers to expend needless time and money trying to smooth out the irritating and flat sound of digital media when the real problem is music played in inverted polarity.
This should be an object lesson on how an entire industry with its experts and electrical engineers can get it wrong and not do anything about if for over 35 years and counting! So it should be an object lesson that the entire industry that creates recorded music and is based upon scientific principles continues to mostly get polarity wrong.
I've written two monographs that go into great detail about the problem at: http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com andhttp://www.PolarityGeorge.com. If you or anyone you know might be interested in developing ThePerfect Polarizer™ that will detect and correct polarity in real-time, then please forward this email to them/encourage them to contact me, because I believe it could be accomplished with AI/App. Now, do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?”
Respectfully submitted,
George S. Louis, Esq., CEO Digital Systems & Solutions President San Diego Audio Society (SDAS) Website: www.AudioGeorge.com Email: AudioGeorge@AudioGeorge.com Phone: 619-401-9876
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@audioman58 yes sometimes the truth can be painful. You should not be so easily shaken. A CD player can be had for as little as $100 if your standards aren’t too high. A $500 CD player really doesn’t have much better sound quality, and neither does a $1500 or $3000 CD Player. All you get for that exorbitant price is a little better build quality. As others said, digital is only an imitation, analog is the real and lasting thing. |
Digital ever since the very beginning in terms of playback has had serious issues, it’s not really the CD per se that’s the problem. You just can’t hear it properly, that’s all. Some problems of have been figured out and solved, like isolation, others not so much. And there has been a boatload of patches that have helped. Some problems are not even known, and that can make the going pretty rough. What can I tell you? A pig wearing lipstick 💋 is still a pig 🐷 |
Everything DIGITAL gets outdated pretty fast, the software, the gear, the source ... everything. Just like the computers, smart phones. You can throw them away in a few years. The Analog is the opposite story. 40-50 years old records are still icredible, vintage cartridges still amazing, old turntables still superior, reel to reel still rocks. Analog studios for musicians still the best. Who cares about digital if we have all these analog gear and music collection in analog format? This is a true heritage! For a person who’s got a decent collection of vinyl and nice high-end equipment your digital fairy tales is nothing. And we don’t have to be open minded to realize this or that fact about digital bitrate, it’s obvious that many people don’t need it at all. Serious music collection is not a collection of files, exactly like the art collection (it’s all about original, not a digital copy). People looking for something "real" and authentic in this digital world, because your digital is nothing, it’s on the cloud streaming, it’s free, it can be copied, it has no value, your entire "collection" of digital music can be on your iphone or on one flash card. It has no background history like any phisical media formats, especially vintage records. Digital is good for education, for the quick access to the information, but please stop comparing a music collection in digital formats to an analog music collection. A good record collection is a pure gold, digital collection is nothing but a free bonus that everyone can copy pretty quick. I’m getting sick of all that digital, i would rather go and buy more vintage records |
Dear @sleepwalker65 : I can't agree with you but I hope you can agree with this. Please read it with an " open mind " and for a " minute " forgeret about LPs and forgeret of what you are accustomed to listen in your room/system: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/turntable-got-absolutely-crushed-by-cd/post?postid=1684132#16... I like both formats. R. |
Hello Sleepwalker 65 ,the gibberish is a fact , even though it is a different format the max for a record is just over 12 bits . just look up what a bit is , educate yourself . your system is Waay outdated. You are still back in the stone age as far as Audio capabilities.yes sometimes the truth can be painful. go to Any quality store and you will see, maybe for the first time your $500 CD player is as basic as it gets You get what you pay for !! |
@duckworp
Daft Punk’s "Random Access Memories" was recorded to tape using almost entirely 70s studio gear. That was why the album cost the million dollars it did as these guys were buying up and rebuilding 70s gear to allow them to make an analogue recording. There is very little EQ used in the mix, no plug-ins...it is a wonderful recording. Check this article out to read the great lengths they went to to create an authentic 70s sounding recording: https://www.soundonsound.com/people/recording-random-access-memories-daft-punk...and it is a fabulous album. Check out the last track ’Contact’ for an epic 21st century prog sounding finale. Or ’Touch’ for a masterpiece of light and shade: a choral wonder. Or ’Georgio by Moroder’ for some of the best drumming you will ever hear as it reaches its climax. Well, they're definitely show up some progress if it was recorded in analog (you're right), but i remember the band from their 1st album and never liked it. I still don't like their music, but respect the old musicians they are invited. Anyway it's about personal taste, sorry. The original records from the 70s are much more interesting, i don't listen to pop music. |
Sleep walker 65 , your digital is so poor , no wonder it is not close to your turntable, try investing $5k in a aluminum player,or antipode, Aurender but first alll your music library needs to be ripped to a shard drive then your digital will take on yet another level like myself I use only Solid state drives,night and day faster ,no mechanical switching and a better medium . and dsd recordings may or may not even become main stream. hd tracks and other down loads give you hires recordings. A 24/96 bit recording is the standard for most quality recordings and 2 x more musical information then any record can provide 12 bits is all that is possible. You like records for they are richer .there are incredible digital products out there ,Vacuum Tube , and solid state. Start reading computer Audiophile. Your are driving a Kia for digital and untill you get into something on a much higher level you will never know. Go to a quality Audio store and sit down and listen . For you to evening of your cables for analog to be Beldon is way down on the audio quality list. Heldon make a great Ethernet cable, thats it . Myself modify all my gear for stock equipment unless $$ high end internally is all builtto a price point .for the record, no pun intended less then 25% of the cost of a item actually goes into the product, the rest R&D overhead and markup. That is why you put much better wiring , upgrade speaker Xovers and internal resistor capacitors power supplies. Even your record player is far from the top. Yes ur quality is = to maybe a $3k system at best . Strat getting out more to the Audio stores. What is the rest of yoursystem ,Speakers, electronics,and cables ? This too tells a lot about the weakest link in the chain. this is one hobby that being frugal will expose many short coming . tome to start spending $$ to get with the times. I owned a Audio store for years and seen people spend $50k on a system but would not spend even $2500 on cables ,even offering to lend them to compare. Afraid of spending more mentally csnt justify why a cable should be expensive. Check out all your options. |
£20k of CD player to listen to the rubbish like the Daft Punk ? Daft Punk’s "Random Access Memories" was recorded to tape using almost entirely 70s studio gear. That was why the album cost the million dollars it did as these guys were buying up and rebuilding 70s gear to allow them to make an analogue recording. There is very little EQ used in the mix, no plug-ins...it is a wonderful recording. Check this article out to read the great lengths they went to to create an authentic 70s sounding recording: https://www.soundonsound.com/people/recording-random-access-memories-daft-punk ...and it is a fabulous album. Check out the last track ’Contact’ for an epic 21st century prog sounding finale. Or ’Touch’ for a masterpiece of light and shade: a choral wonder. Or ’Georgio by Moroder’ for some of the best drumming you will ever hear as it reaches its climax. Re my vinyl vs cd comparison: we mainly compared 70s material as you suggest; original Dark Side Of The Moon LP with first edition straight CD transfer (original CD masters were usually a simple trtransfer from the master tapes) and also compared to the James Guthrie 2011 remaster. I preferred the Guthrie remaster, my friend preferred the LP, but the differences were not massive = testament to Guthrie’s remastering skills. We compared a 70s Rush album, Carole King and more. CD would lose badly only when a version with brickwalled remastering was compared to original 70s vinyl. Well remastered CD or first edition CD was very close with myself usually preferring CD, my friend vinyl. |
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Sleepwalker - I was describing a way to drown out treadmill noise with a beat. It was not a post about sound quality. I got a warning and the post was deleted by the mods due to the R* reference. ok Mod. Chakster my words to you also got deleted with that post, but they are IMO important so I will summarize. The music is made from two parts of the record. One the grooves and the other side, the record itself which sits on the platter and the TT platter turns at the correct speed. The two functions are separate from one another, but of equal importance. You can't have one without the other and still be able to enjoy your records. |
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@ct0517 A lot of riding going on. But only cartridge and its diamond rides in the groove where the music is, so only diamond touch the groove walls. If you have some problem right there you can not fix it anywhere else, no matter how well treated your room or how good is your tonearm and phonostage, turntable, cables and speakers. Your cartridge is the first and most important component in agalog chain. |
chakster @chakster Well then, in your own words "physically riding", shortened to "ride" for the purpose of this post..... The Litz ............rides the tonearm/cart. The tonearm ....rides the cartridge and TT/Shelf. The cartridge... rides the record. The record .......rides the platter/TT The TT .............rides the shelf. A lot of riding going on. |
@ct0517 The key is attained knowledge, that allows for the proper set up of all 6 areas to work together, based on each areas different design, and execution. There is a lot to get wrong. Right, but the cartridge is first and only component that physically riding your records, so in my opinion cartridge is the key. |
@itsjustme Could you start with the entire system chain so we know what you were hearing, and the material, so we know the mastering? It’s pretty straight-forward. I listen to material recorded to LPs in the 60’s and 70’s on a completely analog (except for CD player) system. My turntable is a fully restored high-end vintage Technics SL-1700mk2 with Audio-Technica VM540ML cartridge playing through a modified NAD PP2 (external regulated power supply, Burson V6 Classic discrete op-amp and XLR connectors with Belden 1696A shielded single pair cable to the tonearm). To replicate this much with off the shelf gear, you’d have to spend the better part of $6,000. |
@chakster The goal of analog is ANALOG, not a digital converted to analog. Get youself some proper original records from the 70’s to make sure you’re listening to the state of the art analog, not a digitally remastered reissue or new music recorded digitally. Original pressing from analog master tape is where the vinyl is better than CD of the same music recorded later from digital source. Also the phono cartridge is the key to analog. Totally agree with you Chakster. The purity of the analog mixing, production and mastering process works best with analog playback. Putting digital in any of these stages introduces unnecessary a/d and d/a conversions and associated elements of distortion. |
. Its not the 1) cartridge........ it’s not the 2) table....... it’s not the 3) shelf/stand/room....... its not the 4) tonearm......... its not the 5) Litz..........its not the 6) Phono Stage and Loading of............. The key is attained knowledge, that allows for the proper set up of all 6 areas to work together, based on each areas different design, and execution. There is a lot to get wrong. This is why better set up lesser perceived designs, out perform better perceived designs in places you visit like same room shows. But given one has the knowledge on setup, and that someone can do the proper set up; the better design executed well should out perform the lesser design. |
I used analogy with religions to point out that digital believers have their own church to address their believe in digital in their own forum while we the analog believers have our own. However our moderators thought that this is some kind of ''political statement'' and removed my post. It is not easy to accept such removal if one has no idea why. But I do have some assumptions. |
The only definitive thing was that bass was deeper on CD on modern recordings (eg Random Access Memories by Daft Punk).£20k of CD player to listen to the rubbish like the Daft Punk ? Do you realize that they are recorded digitally in the studio, so what is the point to compare vinyl recorded from the digital master to a CD from a digital master ? The goal of analog is ANALOG, not a digital converted to analog. Get youself some proper original records from the 70’s to make sure you’re listening to the state of the art analog, not a digitally remastered reissue or new music recorded digitally. Original pressing from analog master tape is where the vinyl is better than CD of the same music recorded later from digital source. Also the phono cartridge is the key to analog. |
The OP is making a nonsense claim. A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of visiting my mate who has a top-end Naim set up (Naim Statement pre amp, CD555) with a Linn LP12 deck. So £20k of CD player and the same for the LP12. We compared the vinyl and CD of a number of titles. Both sounded fantastic and the differences were not huge. I would say that more sounded better on CD than vinyl though my friend thought the opposite. The only definitive thing was that bass was deeper on CD on modern recordings (eg Random Access Memories by Daft Punk). I would argue that the differences we heard were more to do with the mastering than the format. In summary: the differences between CD and vinyl on high-end equipment are marginal - high-end replay of vinyl and digital are essentially similar. The differences you hear will be more to do with the differences in the respective mastering than in the format itself. If you are hearing big differences between the two formats then something is wrong with the part of your system playing the poorer sounding format. |
Hi Sleepwalker, Could you start with the entire system chain so we know what you were hearing, and the material, so we know the mastering? Without that its really jibberish. I've been doing some A-B experiments recently to isolate various contributions and its very hard. Most recently on SPDIF vs USB with a good recovery clock. Quite amazing. G |
@skipskip Vinyl destroys itself every time you play it. It sounds like SONY CD advertisement from the 80s. Actually CD destroys itself much faster, one single scratch and it's not repairable and the whole CD or a part of it is unplayable. The worst media format ever. Anyone can look where is vinyl now and where is the CD. |
I have a $8000 turntable setup, and a $5000 streamer/DAC. On most of what I listen to, the vinyl sounds better. But sometimes CD is better. But the differences in the source quality, imho, far outweighs the differences in playback capabilities. The source quality is almost always because of the mastering process, particularly how much processing (and what type) took place. |
Dream on sleepy head. Every time you play that vinyl you are wearing it out and you won't be able to source replacements of equal quality or possibly of any quality. Plus, your needle is wearing out and will need replacing. Meanwhile, my CD or digital file is capable of reproducing its original quality, time after time. Yes, I understand that the CD may well become unplayable too but the backed-up FLAC copy of it will never degrade or disappear and in fact will sound better and better (up to a point) as DAC quality gets better and better. |
If we could have master tape dubs we wouldn't bother with either. Given good recordings, in terms of sound naturalness even $500 turntable set-up will sound better than any digital, though. This subject keeps coming as if there was anything unclear. There is no debate, only poor hearing in some cases and commercial interests. |
Not as much as you might think. Vinyl will eventually lose sound quality after dozens of plays. In the hands of a person who cleans their records, handles them properly, cleans their stylus and uses a line contact or Shibata stylus profile, vinyl lasts a hundred or more plays. Having said that, I do plan to archive my collection to 4xDSD as soon as a reasonable solution becomes available. |
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