Cartridge new or used ?

@thom_mackris   Thanks, that does clear up your point. We are in total agreement.

Hi @daveyf

Because, IME, without knowing exactly what you are looking for in this regard, all else is just a guess. So even with a 1000x microscope, the knowledge of the shape is crucial...which is why I suspect Raul and I state that only the manufacturer of the particular cartridge knows this for sure.

I didn’t mean imply otherwise, and I’m in agreement with you, @lewm and @Raul.
High magnification is a necessary, but not sufficient condition to verify stylus health.

Of course, you can possibly see catastrophic damage, but (at a minimum) having a known good sample of the stylus profile in question is necessary.

Cheers,
Thom @ Gaibier Design

I've got a lab grade microscope in my workshop, and I use it to look at styli from time to time, just for entertainment value.  The conclusion I draw from looking at new cartridges, cartridges I bought new and which have been used only for a few hours by me, and cartridges I bought used, is that I would not trust myself to evaluate stylus condition, articles from the internet notwithstanding.  If I needed to check the condition of a stylus tip, I would send it to Peter Ledermann and pay him for his time.

I am surprised that this discussion brings out such passionate disagreements.  I think I've written elsewhere that I would happily by a used cartridge from someone whom I knew and who was in my sphere of friends, either on this forum or local to my residence.  I would not send big $ to a stranger in a foreign country for a used cartridge, however. eBay scares me based on my bad experiences buying vacuum tubes, and rarely LPs, off eBay.  On the other hand, the capacitors that come all the way from the former Soviet Union (Russia, Estonia, Ukraine, mostly) via eBay have uniformly been great.  Like Chakster, I much prefer to buy NOS, if I am in pursuit of a vintage cartridge, but I've got so many now that I may spend the rest of my life evaluating what I've got.

 @thom_mackris   What can you tell us is the actual shape of the various facets of the diamond, before and after damage? Because, IME, without knowing exactly what you are looking for in this regard, all else is just a guess. So even with a 1000x microscope, the knowledge of the shape is crucial...which is why I suspect Raul and I state that only the manufacturer of the particular cartridge knows this for sure. 
i noticed you recommend Magik eraser as the stylus cleaner, very interesting. 

Hi @chakster,

Damaged or worn diamond looks different, but to inspect them we need a powerfull microscope, this is an image from the internet, the diamond is worn accodring to the poster.

Great photos in your earlier post, and I agree with you about the resolution level necessary to learn anything meaningful about stylus condition.

I would estimate you need something on the order of 1000x to perform a meaningful stylus inspection.

The linked photo was taken at 240x, using the microscope I use for setups and it’s clearly too low magnification for inspecting styli.

https://galibierdesign.com/stylus-01/

@stevecham - your estimate off 40x is off by just a wee bit ;-)

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

https://losslesssound.wordpress.com/2018/12/24/using-macro-photography-to-check-stylus-wear/

This article explains how to check your stylus. 

Some time I’ll have to examine the mounts of my various (low to mid range) cartridges under the microscope. I’ve got several dating back to the early ‘80’s also, so that should be interesting. 

I disagree. Modern moving magnet cartridge technology benefits from the latest refinements in material, design and manufacturing techniques that didn’t exist in the 80’s, when those processes were relatively inefficient.

No, try to find any new cartridge with Hollow Pipe Boron Cantilever, Beryllium cantilever, Diamond cantilever for under $500. Wish you good luck on it :)

The microline styli found on relatively inexpensive cartridges such as the Audio-Technica VM540ML (mslp $250) and VM740ML (mslp $330) are vastly superior conical and elliptical profiles in all respects. They are similar in performance to the vaunted Shibata profile, but with much better stylus longevity. All this in “unfashionable” moving magnet design, but still able to deliver excellent performance along with good value.

Right, the Audio-Technica is a great manufacturer even today, their cartridges are reasonably priced and they are very good, but if you will compare those new MM to the best AT moving magnets from the 80s (like the Audio-Technica AT-ML180) you will understand why this example can be sold for $2-3k today in NOS condition.

The question is not about the MicroLine profile, but also about the cantilever and definitely about the generator. Try to find an AT cartridge with hollow pipe Boron or hollow pipe Beryllium cantilever with a nude diamond of extremely low mass. They did it back in the 80s. I’ve owned many AT cartridges, inspected cantilevers styli under my macro lens. The new AT cartridges are different, but not better. As many other manufacturers the diamond is simply glued to the cantilever with relatively big amount of glue around the tip, i saw that on my Audio-Technica ART-2000 LOMC which was a great MC cartridge, but the AT-ML180 from the 80’s killing it, and it’s MM design, just look at the construction and check the specs here. They made two different versions of that cartridge.

In this thread i have posted an images to compare old (dynavector) and new (soundsmith) ruby cantilevers, you will see that the new method is simplified compared to the old method (much more complicated and more expensive method). I do not see a progress, only regress, i think it’s because of the cartridge demands was much higher in the 70s/80s than today. It was an analog era. Even taking in count an awful price strategy of today’s high-end, the quality of the best vintage cartridges from the analog era are better, well at least to my ears ( and i’m not alone on this forum with this statement).

P.S. I hate conical/spherical profiles, i don’t use cartridges with conical stylus profile at all. I have a few elliptical and hyper elliptical which are really good, but most of my favorite MM or MC cartridges are Line Contact type (Stereohedron, Shibata, Replicant 100, Fritz Gyger, Paroc, MicroRidge depends on the patent).

Grace back in the days made all kind of cantilevers for their LEVEL II and F-14 cartridges: Alluminum, Boron Pipe, Sapphire, Ruby and even Ceramic which is the rarest cantilever ever made. 

@chakster 

Modern MM is out of fashion in audiophiles world, manufacturers does not care about it much, because the profit is low compared to the MC, let’s face it. This is the reason why MM/MI from the 70’s/80’s are so amazing. 

I disagree. Modern moving magnet cartridge technology benefits from the latest refinements in material, design and manufacturing techniques that didn’t exist in the 80’s, when those processes were relatively inefficient.

Fashion in the audiophile world doesn’t equate to outright performance, much less value, but there are coincidences.

The microline styli found on relatively inexpensive cartridges such as the Audio-Technica VM540ML (mslp $250) and VM740ML (mslp $330) are vastly superior conical and elliptical profiles in all respects. They are similar in performance to the vaunted Shibata profile, but with much better stylus longevity. All this in “unfashionable” moving magnet design, but still able to deliver excellent performance along with good value.

In my eyes, this combination of performance:value is very relevant, dare I say fashionable. 

Everyone if free to decide what is better, but only after the actual comparison of the cartridges in the system. That would be fair. Some people on here commended on something they never tried or on something they had bad luck with.

For me it’s obvious that my top of the line vintage MM/MI cartridges in NOS (unused, mainly from the 80’s) or lightly used are better and (surprise) cheaper than some top of the line modern LOMC that i’ve tried up to $5k range. Most of the absolutely amazing and extremely rare MM cartridges are still under $1.5k, some of the spectacular MM/MI are under $700 which is simply amazing in this world where manufacturers asking prices for modern MC can be $15k easily. Well, i am not crazy to pay $15k for a cartridge, no matter which super-duper materials did they used.

Stylus replacement option for MM cartridges is one of the reason to accept lighlty used samples. I was lucky to find some deadstock NOS styli for the rarest Grace or Audio-Technica best and most expensive models from the 80’s. So i don’t need a re-tipper with his third-party parts for the rare carts, i’m happy to stick to the original NOS styli utilized some exotic cantilevers and diamonds.

If the end or the road for any cartridge is SoundSmith re-tip service then i just don’t understand why not stick to the SoundSmith own cartridges if many of you really think that he can repair every cartridge using his different (compared to the original) parts to make it equal or even better than the original? If some of you are fine with refurbished carts aka frankensteins then please find J.Carrs comments about fundamental aspects of the cartridge design (the calculation that every cartridge designer made to decide on cantilever and stylus type or mass etc).

If someone can’t afford very expensive factory service for your overpriced LOMC then don’t buy it. If some of you are happy with third-party service and completely different materials or methods of the re-tipper (which wipe away all the calculations made by the original designer) then why do you think such refurbished cartridge is better than fully original top of the line MM/MI with genuine stylus replacement ?

Modern MM is out of fashion in audiophiles world, manufacturers does not care about it much, because the profit is low compared to the MC, let’s face it. This is the reason why MM/MI from the 70’s/80’s are so amazing.

And finally: When people are talking about resonance and distortion of the equipment, i would ask a question how many of you guys (or those reviewers) has treated the rooms with diffusors, absorbers, bass traps etc ? Acoustic treatment of the listening room is far more important, otherwise we’re dealing with so many reflections, stadning waves etc. Normally i see room treatment in the recording or mastering studios, but not in audiophiles home. Funny, but i’ve never seen any acoustic treatment in the rooms where those "professional reviewers" judging very expensive high-end equipment.

Happy New Year! 

@rauliruegas You bring up a great point, and one that I agree with 100%. That point is that the factory really is the only one to truly determine the condition of the stylus/suspension. The various stylus/cantilever manufacturers know what it is that they manufacture, and what the facets of the diamond should like, new and under basic wear patterns. This is really the point that I have been trying to get across, and I think your post said it very well.

Dear @audiosens and friends: I think almost all was already posted and I would like to add some comments about:

as @lewm ( and I think @daveyf  ) pointed out no one of us but only cartridge manufacturers/re-tippers can know for sure if the stylus tip/suspension is in good condition with hours coming to play, no one else no matter what. Period. 

From some years now no one cartridge designer/manufacturer has to envy vintage materials or cartridge technology in any way.
Today stylus shapes are better one and with better quality excecution and more tigth tolerances. Cantilever materials are too superior as the boron rod ( instead hollow that is more resonant/distorted. ) over berilyum and cartridge body materials blend superior too. Better material at the wire coils and shapes as the magnets too.

Yes, exist really good vintage cartridges that in the LOMC designs can compete against the best today ones but that is not the rule.

I own/owned/tested vintage and today MM/MI/LOMC cartridges and I know for sure what I'm talking too. Obviously that to be aware of that we need to own not only a high resolution system but with very very low overall distortions and that be a true full range audio system.

Happy New Year  2 0 1 9   for all of you and your dearest family   ! !

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I won't do previously owned and used cartridges.  I do have friends who swear by it though and they have always had good luck.  Back in the day I bought and sold maybe 5 TT's and each either came or left with a cartridge.  When receiving a used TT and cartridge, I'd test the table with a worn LP.  If it sounded good to me, I would replace the stylus or consider a retip.    

Exactly!

@analogluvr .

I agree that the purists will throw a googly eye fit and wail long and loud about retipping one of the expensive MC carts claiming it is now not original at all.
But if YOU like the sound still then surely it is better than just junking what was an expensive purchase by someone.
I would have no hesitation in following the same path if needed.
After all 5 to 10k for a cart is way out of my league but 2 to 2.5k? For same item?
I will take a chance AFTER doing full research on the cart AND seller of course.

  I’ve had mostly good luck buying used cartridges. For my last example I paid 2K for a used Lyra Kleos SL.   To start with make sure you’re buying from somebody with lots of good feedback and make sure their backstory makes sense. For example if they claim 200 hours on a six-year-old cartridge, do they have multiple arms, why does it have low hours? 
 Then considering I’m getting it for 2K off of retail. So even if it has more wear I can retip it for $500 and be ahead of the game.  Then there are those that say it’s not the same cartridge after it’s been retipped. Technically they are correct but in my experience it’s still a very very very similar cartridge.  I retipped a Lyra Delos and I would be hard-pressed to have noticed that it was any different. 
 I refuse to pay the ridiculous amounts they want for new cartridges these days. 

You can minimize the uncertainty of the "takes ya chances" part with a dose of healthy common sense and  research.

As I have said it is NOT for impulse buyers or the faint of heart...lol.

Works for me and keeps my pocket a little fuller each time I buy a used cart.

Good luck to all.

Ya pays ya money, ya takes ya chances. Glad to hear others have had good luck with preowned carts.

@chakster 

I don’t know who was responsible for the 80’s AT cartridges, but maybe their customer service department may be able to help. 

I have some questions for all of those folks who buy used vintage cartridges, or used non replaceable stylus cartridges...
how do you know the condition of the diamond? Do you look online and get a generic picture that may or may not correspond with the stylus shape you are expecting to see, and are you able to actually view all of the facets of the diamond..on all sides, or are you doing something else? Using a high powered microscope? Are you able to determine the exact cut and angular correctness of the facets? 
Some other method to determine wear and condition? Do you have any idea as to the condition of the suspension and what that is supposed to perform like...or do you not care about this aspect that much, and assume all is as it was from the factory originally?

chakster,, there is a very big difference between a cartridge that has been well taken of by the original owner and one that has been worn out and possibly damaged by the prior owner. Obviously, as a cartridge is used, it wears, IOW..it is a wear item. The question is how it was treated in its past, not that it is wearing as we play it.IMO

Steve
I also bought a xsv3000 with completely worn out "E" stylus cw the very rare mounting pads.
Bought a replacement stylus and guess I was lucky as it sounded really good to my ears.
My ADC XLM mk2 and Sonus Bronze sound better but it was still a fair buy.

No problem buying used. Preference is for them to actually be broken. Broken cantilever, missing stylus. Open coil would not interest me.

Off to the retipper once received.

I guess one exception could be where the stylus is user replaceable and the price is appropriate for such a contingency. Even then one takes one’s chances which is why I won’t do it again. I bought a used Pickering XSV3000 that came without a stylus. Bought the replacement stylus which was fine, but the cartridge has a noticeable channel imbalance which makes it unusable. So, between cartridge and new stylus, that was $200 down the drain. That put the stopper to future used-cartridge purchases.

@sleepwalker65

 

Why would you go vintage when brand-new, I’m-abused Audio-Technica Micro-Line cartridges are available everywhere at reasonable prices? (Thanks Chakster) I prefer a known commodity, and it’s worked out superbly with my VM540ML cartridges.

Do you know who was the designer of the Audio-Technica top of the line MM cartridges in the 80s?  I wish to know, because some of the best cartridge designers are no longer in business. Sadly we can not buy a cartridge from Ikeda, Nori, Takeda.. anymore, but their cartridges are hand build and voiced/tuned by the masters themselves. For this reason we can only buy vintage, hoping to find a NOS or perfect (nearly unused) working sample. 

Another reason is unobtained material and methods used in the 80s, but not available today which makes those old models unique compared to new models. 

It does not mean that the new cartridges are bad, but if we're looking for something unique then we have rare cartridges from the golden age on analogue. It's all about curiosity after all. 

Sleepwalker.
I have absolutely zero idea how you took my reply and construed what you did out of it. Additionally I am having a hard time even understanding your follow up points?
If I offended you in some way I did not intend to and apologise for your distress.

To cut to the chase all I was saying if you do not trust sellers of used carts that is fine and no problem to me at all. I only assume from your distrust that you have unfortunately been burned by some unscrupulous seller for which I sympathise .
However again do not place ALL sellers in the same category and if others are having good luck with used carts then it is what it is and you should not denounce the practice of buying/selling used carts in general.
Leaves more for the rest of us anyways!

And that should be enough said on the subject.

Remember that part about common sense? People who are prone to impulse buys and NOT doing thorough research should probably NOT buy used carts.
Just IMHO.

@uberwaltz said:

You definitely have some deep rooted trust issues. And your comments about doctored feedback is highly amusing.
But to each their own, I have no problem with anybody who prefers to go the route you advocate but please do not harbour malice to those who DO decide to buy used and save a fortune potentially.

Why is my bad fortune amusing to you? THAT response is defensive and apparently struck a sore point with you. Perhaps you’ve been on the other end of a deal where you have felt unfairly accused of selling damaged or defective merchandise.

As a buyer, have zero tolerance for dishonest sellers who misrepresent their goods, especially on Internet commerce sites like fleabay. I speak from personal experiences, three in recent times where I’ve had to get fleabay and/ or PayPal involved for a refund.

Please tell me that you are not defending sellers who deliberately do not disclose damaged and defective items. If you had the same experiences that I’ve had, you would act so defensively and might even show some compassion.

Lastly, please explain to me how I’m “harbouring malice” to people who decide to buy used things.

@daveyf

chakster, if you don’t believe me, read what stevecham wrote above. Your ’advice’ is going to result in folks damaging their LP’s...unfortunately. . As i stated before, I am certain yours are damaged beyond repair at this point, as your vintage stylus is nice and sharp!

I’m happy to ignore what @stevecham said exept his last passage below:

Personally, I never buy used cartridges.

A person who never buy used cartridges can’t comment on the subject. It’s obvious to me, but not to you for some reason.

If you will ever buy a brand new super expensive cartridge (i know you can’t choose) to play with it for 200-500 hrs do you think it will be a big mistake for any other member (in theory) to buy it from you to enjoy another 500-1000 hours ?

Your thoughts about worn records is something that i don’t understand at all. I have some records in multiple copies, normally i use one copy while another copy is unused on the shelf. We can easily compare them in 5 years. According to your statement the used copy will be totally worn?

I have some favorite record for 20 years in rotation and they are still nice, as another member pointed out, some 40 years old records are better than brand new. Surely we’re not talking about records in VG (bad) condition, but if the used record is MINT- or even VG+ in conservative grading then it’s fine. All vintage records have been played with cheap conical or elliptical diamonds and not by audiophiles, those records sonically are superior to 99% of the brand new releases.

@clearthink Let's make it clear: your cartridges are used, each time you play next record your stylus getting more and more used, not sure how can you live with it ?  I'm sorry, i know you don't want to use used cartridges, but actually you do.  

edgewear"Are you really worried these records will be damaged from being played by a slightly worn modern diamond stylus with some advanced profile?"

No I am not worried, concerned or troubled at all by a used stylus because I do not buy used cartridges, underwear, or tires.  

daveyf
who knows why some people sell stuff so cheap, problems financial or health or even drugs, who knows.
Over the years I have bought many audio items, usually from ebay, that were so stupidly cheap I just had to buy them even though I may not have even needed them.
Did I get burnt on any transaction?
Not one if memory serves me correctly!
And fyi the Koetsu plays perfectly well as delivered
Again if used cartridges makes you nervous I completely understand and commend you for staying out of that market BUT do not belittle the market or sellers/buyers of said used cartridges as a whole.
Thank you

It really depends on the seller.

I have purchased used cartridges with success as well as new cartridges.

I am considering sale of a cartridge (purchased new) which has been used for 19 record sides (I keep track) so about 6-7 hours. The sale of high quality used cartridges well cared for and used lightly does happen.

Boy, first 'used underwear', now 'used food'....... You guys really have a deeply felt disgust towards used cartridges.

As far as I'm concerned this is the preferred mainstream opinion: by all means stay away from used cartridges! Less competitors in the market place means lower prices.....

lol clairvoyant trolls

@uberwaltz. Why would anybody sell a perfectly decent high priced cartridge like a Koetsu RSP at 17% of retail? Oh, I forgot...in order to get that cartridge factory reconditioned, you are going to have to send it Japan, and depending on whether it was a grey market item or whether it already had a bastardized stylus, (in which case you will be out of luck entirely) pay $1000’s to Koetsu for their services.
Unless, that’s not correct, and somebody just happened to feel ultra charitable to your friend, lol.

Sleepwalker
You definitely have some deep rooted trust issues. And your comments about doctored feedback is highly amusing.
But to each their own, I have no problem with anybody who prefers to go the route you advocate but please do not harbour malice to those who DO decide to buy used and save a fortune potentially.
One of my friends just bought a Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum for approx 17% of new retail.......

Why would you go vintage when brand-new, I’m-abused Audio-Technica Micro-Line cartridges are available everywhere at reasonable prices? (Thanks Chakster) I prefer a known commodity, and it’s worked out superbly with my VM540ML cartridges. Heck, I even use a VM540ML stylus on my VM610 mono cartridge. You just can’t go wrong with them. 

There are many dishonest people on fleabay and you have no way of telling before you commit to purchasing, because fleabay protects its insider club sellers by doctoring the feedback info that’s published. 

What is it with all the wet necks and used cartridges!
Use your head and common sense when shopping and you will be fine. Remember that one, common sense, that's right the least common of all senses nowadays it seems!
I have bought and sold many used cartridges here and on eBay.
There still are a LOT of very honest people in this hobby.
How else is one to try and acquire and use some of the better vintage mm carts apart from taking the plunge and buying used?

If you do not want to take a chance personally that's fine but do NOT denigrate the process as a whole!

Disgusting.

Wanting a used cartridge is like wanting to eat used food. Not my choice. ‘Nuff said.

Schubert, that is sweet! You will be happy for a while.

I buy used. Listening with a FR-1 Mk 3f as I type. Try finding one new. 

@clearthink, 

Your analogy of 'used underwear' smells a bit funny and frankly makes no sense. Stylus wear from normal use is very gradual, so with previously owned 'modern' cartridges the risk of damaging your records is negligable. It seems to me some people are way too sensitive about this.

Perhaps I don't take this so seriously because 99,9% of my vinyl collection consists of previously owned records, originating from the 50's, 60's and 70's. Any idea what normal people in those days used as 'turntables'? I remember our own family record player, one of those ugly jobs with a plastic 'tonearm' you had to pull to the right in order to start the 'motor'. It had some sort of headpiece (where we now expect to see a cartridge) that came equipped with the facility of 'flipping' over the stylus after a certain number of hours of play (these were sapphire you see, not diamond). You were also supposed to manually bring the stylus into the groove, preferably without dropping it. Armlift? Tracking force gauge? Yeah right. I even remember a coin attached to the headpiece to get sufficient (5 gram? 10 gram? nobody knew or cared) downforce to keep the stylus in the groove. 

It's really a miracle so many copies actually survived these crude devices and the 'non-audiophile' lifestyles that usually came with it. Not only that, we cherish them for amazing sound quality even the best audiophile reissues cannot approach. Are you really worried these records will be damaged from being played by a slightly worn modern diamond stylus with some advanced profile?

chakster, if you don’t believe me, read what stevecham wrote above. Your ’advice’ is going to result in folks damaging their LP’s...unfortunately. . As i stated before, I am certain yours are damaged beyond repair at this point, as your vintage stylus is nice and sharp!!!LMAO! But, that’s ok, keep on with the great ’advice’, :0(

chakster, this weekend I was gifted a mint ADC XLM  cart with with 4 new
stylus , a MkII, 2  MkIII and another XLM at 65x 10 compliance , tone soundsgood , what do you think !

@daveyf hey, you can't buy even a brand new cartridge according to your own thread, so why should we discusse a used ones with you ? 

The picture i have posted is what people can see when they buy a used cartridge, in most cases that quality of picture is not available from normal listings on ebay from the most of the sellers. 

The Audio-Techica micro line diamond is the closest to the cutter stylus, but that's the best stylus for minimum record wear, same with Replicant-100 or F.Gyger. Those profiles can be used for up to 2000 hours. Those almost brand new diamonds looks "sharp" to my eyes, but another poster said they don't have to be sharp. 

When an audiophile with a nice set up playing with one of the 5-10 cartridges from his collection for about 200 hrs or even 600 hrs there is still plenty of life left if the stylus profile if it's is not Conical or Elliptical, but a MicroLine, MicroRidge, F.Gyger, Replicant-100 etc. Any honest audiophile will tell a buyer also about condition of the damper (if there is any problem). 

In my opinion some audiophiles on this forum know much more about cartridges, tonearm, turntables than ANY dealer in the modern High-End saloon or any reviewer in some fancy audio Mags.   

For most of the people on here (except you) there is no problem to buy a new cartridge for whatever price. 

But the problem with decent vintage cartridge is the rarity, so even you you really want it you can't find it. But when you can find a NOS is something special for us, but not for you.  

never used for me