I think saxo nailed it.
I’ve had other Cardas but once you step up to the reference line it’s another world.
I was running some basic Audioquest IC for a very long time. Then upgraded to Parsec.
I had Twinlink speaker & changed to Neutral Reference. Significant step in the right direction.
I got one Golden Presence for preamp to amp run. Another significant step.
I got another set of GP & ran from DAC to Pre.
Once using the reference line straight through to speakers, I went from hearing really good sound through two speakers, to the speakers disappearing.
I was playing several different MFSL One-Steps.
My turntable to Pre run was Parsec.
They sounded really good but I was hoping for more. After switching the Parsec to Golden Presence, it was clear that one IC that was holding it back.
Just as with the DAC, after switching to the GP, it went from listening through two speakers to the speakers disappearing. The MFSL One-Steps are killer.
Now one more set of GP IC & I’m done.
I would like to hear the difference between the NR & GP speaker though...
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Recently I compared some uber-expensive, very high rated ICs and speaker cables ($6000/m and $10,000/8ft) with the name 'Indra' and 'Dream' against the Cardas GR stuff. The GR made these other cables sound boxy, smeared and two dimensional, to a point they were actually offensive. The ancillary electronics and speakers were all custom built, but wired to the teeth with Cardas hook up wire and Cardas capacitors.
It just goes to show...wires are always system dependant, and there is no absolute best. But a full wiring loom of Cardas (including internally) has produced the most neutral, linear and transparent sound I have ever heard. |
I have owned Neutral, Cross, Golden Cross and Golden Reference. Like some others here, I did not care for NR at all. It seemed to have the weaknesses of the other lines, and none of the strengths. I think maybe it was envisioned as a home theatre type cable. The Cross is sweet sounding and I can see why some actually like that cable best. In general, I think the speaker cables are better than the IC's, and my favorite Cardas SC is the Golden Cross. For IC's, I would pick the GR in the Cardas line, but I went with Purist cables over the Cardas. I also owned the Magic Link II mentioned here and thought it was good across the board, but not special enough to keep. I actually like my DIY IC's using the VH Audio receipe with 24awg solid silver cotton wrapped wire, caulk backer, and Furutech FP-108R terminations. I tend to like solid core wire better than stranded, and I do think there is something to the Cardas litz configuration using solid core enameled wire with air tubes. I wonder if their cables would sound different if they used PCOCC wire? |
Vinylmeister I used to have the Quadlinks. They are decent for the money but I would step up the Cardas chain or try something else like Harmonic Tech Magic Link or something more neutral sounding. The Quadlinks when I had them and I didn't realize that IC's can make or break your system really held mine back. I would upgrade soon. Just my 2 cents. |
I had GC ICs for years and never thought I would never change. I did, to Zu Varials. The detail levels are awesome now but still not too bright.
I also had neutral ref digital Ic which bested Stereovox VX 2 and X2 -60 digital, but was eventually ousted by Zu Ash for the moment. I find the Ash bordering on too bright but the treble detail is nice compared with neut ref. I still have the neut ref tho ...... Awesome digital IC, warm and cosy and easy to live with. |
I recently got very disappointed with a the KS-1121 which makes the sound of my system very high and grand-piano's almost sounded honky tonk pianos and lost all of the timber. SO i put the Cardas Quadlink's back. Now I am hesitating which IC is best for improving the detail, lift the bass a bit. |
Simaudio uses Cardas to demo their systems at stereo shows, specifically Golden Cross. I asked why and the response was everything sounds good through golden cross.
My system comprises of Simaudio, I went with golden reference balanced ic's and golden cross bi wired. The combo sounds excellent. I haven't had much experiece with all kinds of wire so I thought if it's good enough for Simaudio , I will get it as well.
I am waiting to see if they switch up to the new Cardas Clear this year which is suppose to be awesome, but with an awesome price tag as well, |
Sorry, no experience with Cardas speaker cables. Try to get them on loan from a Cardas dealer.
The GR speaker cables have much more copper and conductors than the GP, but in the end, will this make a big difference? Plan on paying for the GR speaker cable because it's not cheap. |
Saxo,
How do you think the GR and GP speaker cables compare? I currently have GP speaker cables along with GR and Golden Cross interconnects. I was wondering what improvements would be realized going to the GR speaker cables.
By the way I am in the I like Cardas camp. |
Yikes, with all due respect, I question the hearing of some of the posters, but to each his own.
I've had all three Cardas Reference. The Neutral I didn't like at all. It was thin, could sound shrill, the bass was nothing to brag about, neither was the soundstage.
Going to the Golden Presence and Golden Reference is entering another world. This nonsense about being dark and the other criticisms is as far from the truth as can be. Some of you want overdetailed, thinned out sound. The Cardas are natural sounding, yet manage to have much detail. Best to wash your ears out or get a hearing test if you think these obscure detail. I've had silver cables in my system, and they have added a bit more detail, but at the expense of brightness and thinness, some better than others. Perhaps with slow sounding tube equipment such compensation of hyperdetailed interconnects that have thin body would compliment such a system.
Listening to many cables compared to the Cardas Reference (GP or GR) is like listening to a table radio compared to an audiophile system. Do you want body that fills out the images, instead of stripping them of harmonics and creating flat, thinned out voices and instruments? You get this with the Cardas.
There are too many cable 'experts' out there who seem to think they know what music sounds like. Ask someone who plays a musical instrument which sounds more real to them - Cardas or Nordost, for an example.
The problem is the flavor of the month/year club with cables. Cardas got the recipe right, so they don't need constant model updates. I've owned a number of cables mentioned in this thread, and nothing has satisfied like the Cardas Golden Presence or Golden Reference. That's all I use. |
I just brought the GR speaker cable. In my system, it is a perfect match!!! Best price to performance. It is detailed but not bright and it creates good depth and wide soundstage on my Thiels 3.6. It also creates some tube magic which my CJ premier 350 lacks. To out do this cable, it will take at least 2 to 3 times the price. I think this is a great cable for high power SS amp and low efficiency spks. |
Personally I hate Cardas products. They just dont work in my system. Thats not to say they wont work in yours, but every time I got rid of a Cardas top of the line cable, the system sounded better. I found the power cords to be really rotten. |
Id like to ask a related question regarding cardas power cords. For reasons, i wont bore you with, i am stuck in a very bright sounding room. I would like to find a pc for my pre amp that accentuates the mids and de-emphaizes the highs. Do the cardas PC's have any of the "warm" qualites. Im not looking for a debate as to change your system, its not the cord etc, since i have things pretty well tweaked and pc for the pre amp is one of the last steps....thanks |
The type of sound I am looking for is detailed but not overly high energy in the high freq area. Would the GR speaker cable be like that? |
The great thing about the GR is resell value. Buy used and try. You can get your money back out if needed. |
Luna, you'll really need to hear them in your system to make that determination.
Cables are system dependent; there is no "one size fits all", a fact, not opinion, that some fail to recognize here.
However, with enough experience they eventually may understand.
Even the home grown crowd. |
I am also in the search for a Golden Reference speaker cable. Can't find any demo around. I am using GR IC and thiels 3.6 and CJ premire 350. anyone knows would they match? |
Sorry Vince GR is not in my line.
Feeling the heat?
ROTFLMAO |
There is nothing that ruins my system so completely as Cardas. I tried all of them, but they where abysmal. The power cords are the worst of the worst. |
Audiofiel says: "Vince and his ribbon cables.
How many threads is this posted in now?
Shout from the mountaintop.
Tell the world."
Oh, really? Google it guys. I think this dealer is feeling the heat. My DIY is just that good. The GR cable failed the test miserably. Funny how there are similar ribbon cables costing thousands. |
One thing about the GR is according to the specs the capacitance is relatively very low. Most cable companies provide this spec for their ICs. I assume the lower the capacitance the more neutral it is. Of course like everything else the measurements provided by the vendor are not provided by a 3rd party. |
I use the GR IC and the GP speaker. I love the synergy of the two and find the more revealing IC is where i needed to spend more money. I think it's interesting that several feel the GR to be colored when it is know to the industry as one of the most neutral cables made. I believe the problems arises in what you are used to hearing. IF you start with low end and work your way up the audio ladder of both cables and electronics then you change perspectives with each alteration. However, if you started out with top front end and amplification, speakers, and cables then you could truly judge small differences between cables. MHO. |
Re-inserted the Golden Ref. for the Speltz cable (between DAC and preamp), over a long listening session I realized how much more involving the Golden Ref. was. Now I'm not interested in re-inserting Speltz.
This tells me there is simply more resolution/detail with the GR in my system vs. the Speltz. The GR is more life-like, more image dimensionality and density, the Speltz is flatter more like hifi in my system. I suspect this very slight veiling is RFI, EMI issues.
Still, I would have to say the Speltz is a really nice cable for the money, if your cable budget is limited these are a nice choice. |
Vince and his ribbon cables.
How many threads is this posted in now?
Shout from the mountaintop.
Tell the world. |
Muralman1, it's entirely possible that it's MY system that is unbalanced and that the Golden Reference speaker cable brought it back to neutral. After all, what we are listening to is the TOTAL SUM of all our components. Faced with too many degrees of freedom, solutions are by necessity empirical only.
But I've dropped the apple many times and each time it falls to the ground in a predictable and correct way, so I believe the Golden Reference is a darn good cable. I'm sticking with it until I find better. Like many others here, I've tested many speaker cables too and I still stand by my comment that speaker cables can be sound grouped by the construction materials ie. pure copper or mixture or silver or gold etc. I would like to add one more significant cable sound contributor - the termination spade material - Rhodium or Silver oxide or Gold or ProGold. And what they are paired to on the speaker and amp terminations.
Not referring to anyone in particular, I find it amazing how audiophiles can pick one item in the equipment chain and make a great number of comments about it and say that it seems to make the difference between Day and Night when one should only be able to describe the CHANGE in sound perceived when the item is replaced and not make ABSOLUTE claims about the item. That's why ultimately it's the entire system all together not the individual components that matter the most. Perhaps I should have said that in MY particular system, the Speltzs, both speaker and balance ics, were ordinary.
Opus88, I use Harmonic Technology Magic Link 2s for all my interconnects. These are hybrid copper/silver designs and again I have yet to find better. I've gone through more cables than I can remember and there is no lending library where I am so it's all purchased between my hifi groupie and swapped around. Tested all kinds including gold hybrid but in my particular setup and system these are the bees knees! They don't make my system sound like playing with harsh silver cables but add just that touch of clarity and excitement in the music. And it's very extended at both ends. For phono cable, I use the original Linn Ittok arm's cable. Just got the old turntable working again after a long sleep and haven't had the time to mess around with it yet. |
Flkn: What are you using for interconnect, and what for phono cable if you listen to lps ? Thanks very much. |
Flkn. it may just be as possible it is your system parts that make the Speltz sound wrong. I have had many very expensive cords run through varius systems, including your favorite Golden Reference. The Shunyata Helix fair were very good. The Cerious ceramic ICs also were very good. Nothing I tried though were better than the Speltz ICs.
In my system, matching has to be done with care. Simpleness is the rule I found best to follow.
Other systems will benefit from calming devices like cables that infuse the signal with white noise.
BTW, my copper ribbon SCs are markedly better than Speltz. These ribbons are ruthlessly honest. Any misstep in the system chain will be magnified. They have forced me to upgrade my DAC finally. |
I'm using Golden Ref speaker cables and in my opinion they sound just fine. There are too many variables in the system to say what causes differing sounds, harshness, mouth, head sounds, fat bass etc. It could be caused by so many parts of the entire sound reproduction chain but in my quest for a balanced sound, the Golden Ref have never been found to be at fault to date. If there is a family resemblance of sound, it is not with the other members of the Cardas line but of copper wires in general. Copper has a particular sweetness that mixed or silver cables cannot match. But they can sound dull and be lacking in ultimate resolution. This is what the physical construction of the GR was designed to avoid and I think they have managed it pretty well. So my experience with them is very satisfactory and I have yet to find a more neutral speaker cable.
So to answer your question, try them all in your system and see how they sound. GR is highly neutral and extended so if it turns out sounding otherwise, something else in your system is causing it. But two unbalanced components can be match to sound neutral so ultimately it's still your choice.
I also have tried the Speltz speaker and ic cables (balanced configuration). Burnt them in for a LONG time as per instructions (500 hours) and they still sound like their prices, ordinary - neither extended nor neutral. I gave the speaker cables away and have the ics lying around somewhere because they look cool. |
Zear, are you sure you were reading opinions of the Speltz IC. I have yet to read anything about Speltz ICs. I encourage people to search Asylum for comments on his ICs, not to be confused with the SC. |
Muralman, interesting your experience with the Speltz. I was intrigued by them, but after reading tons of opinions out there, I was left with the impression that they were only good for the money, but they could not begin to compete with moderate, yet alone high, price cables. Some people did not like them at all, finding tonal and balance problems. |
I am using the Nordost as interconnects and have changed from Neutral ref to golden cross speaker cables - Yes - for me this combo works very well - a balance of speed and warmth. |
Zear, thanks. That was very nice of you. |
Jj2468, your experience sounds right to me. The Spelts SCs are smooth, spacious and musical. Speltz has the same dislike for dielectric distortion as I. As I have said, on my system that distortion comes out loud and clear.
Upon getting letters from some folks in Europe, with the same speakers as I, that said they love ribbon SCs, I decided to try a naked ribbon. There I got all the bass and natural timbre you noticed with the Cardas, but retains all the clarity of the Speltz. What's more, the fore and aft separation became phenomenal. PRAT even improved.
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I did a comparison of all Cardas GR interconnects + bi-wire GR speaker cables and all Speltz interconnects + Speltz single wire speaker cables. In my comparison, with CJ electronics and sonus faber guarneri speakers, the Speltz had better prat and was more transparent. It also sounded more relaxed and like timing was cleaner. The Cardas had a little more bass and a little more natural timbre. I preferred the Speltz. I've not heard or done the comparison in other setups. Jeff |
Yes, surprisingly, the Speltz cable is at least in the same league. Thus far I've only used it from my DAC to preamp (replacing Cardas Golden Ref), and it only has about 125 hours of burn in. I've tried many of the relatively inexpensive cables in the past and have never been much impressed, ie. I was somewhat cynical about the cudos given this cable. At this point I'm really impressed with this cable, at this price it is a no-brainer, it compares with much higher cost cables.
I hear really wonderful transparency/detail, tonal balance perhaps a bit on the warm side, actually, very similar to the GR in my system. I have only a couple of small nits thusfar, it seems a tad more aggresive on the attacks than the GR, the GR seems to accentuate the decays rather than the attacks. Image density and demensionality are a tad thinner as well, GR's really excell in the spaciousness category. Finally, there is a bit of confusion in more complex passages. The slight aggresiveness and confusion could be due to either RFI/EMI or lack of burn in. The info sheet that comes with the cable, and talk in the forums indicates these cables may need 500 hours to fully burn in.
I am somewhat skeptical that any wire needs 500 hours to burn in, 100 hours has been the usual mark in my experience. Anyway, I'm burning in the cable further at the moment, I will listen again at 200 hours, then 500 hours. Even as is, this cable is worth a listen, it may be all one needs! Keep in mind I'm only using the single IC, Golden Ref and PAD Dominus everywhere else, a full system of Speltz IC's and speaker cable, who knows? |
SNS, on Golden Presence, there are obviously less conductors than G ref (4 groups vs. 12 groups). But, on the IC, I am pretty sure the design is very similar. So it should sound much different than Neutral Ref IC, and more like G Ref. But what do I know?
SNS, you use Speltz as well. Is this anywhere in the same league? I've heard both praise and lackluster comments on the Speltz. |
Zear, I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think it is the shielding on the Presence that is different than GR, rather it is less conductors.
I've also owned and demoed Synergistic Resolution Ref. and Absolute Refs. the active shielding does make for a quieter cable, but not necessarily a better cable. The quietness/blackness of a cable is only one aspect of what makes a cable sound the way it does. There are so many variables in a cable, that to put too much emphasis on one aspect of it's design is fruitless. |
Muralman, your system looks killer, and your posts show you to be a well-seasoned audiophile.
From your MIT comment, I would guess you hate networked cables. My only experience was with a borrowed Transparent that sounded pretty good at the time to my ears, though probably pumped up and larger than life, so it impressed me.
Are you referring to Gold Ref shielding and/or outer jacketing as the noisemakers?
Perhaps the Gold Presence w/less shielding would sound better.
Have you fooled around with the AQ DBS stuff? Curious how that may effect dielectric issues. |
Zear, Those cables were brought to my house by a CODA salesman. On his amp. you couldn't hear the fizzzz. He also brought Jena cables.
They sinned too, though less noticeably. MIT have been the worst.
These cables are carrying the signal to my speakers. The fact naked wire produces no hiss, and the Cardas has metal conductors, I can only think it is the thick cable jacket that is noisy. |
Sns, thanks for your opinion. I am open minded to interconnects. It is the one area I have not finalized. |
I'm still trying to find those with Golden Presence.
It has been said the G Presence IC is the same as G Ref, except less shielding. But I also heard that was not true.
Also, the G Presence speaker wire. Since it has 4 bundles of conductors, like the Neutral Ref, how is it different? It certainly costs more. |
Muralman, it's curious you found them noisy when so many have commented on how black and quiet they are.
Firedrums, why did you not continue to use the Neutral Ref speaker cables, instead moving to Nordost? I'm guessing because the Golden Cross was so warm, you needed the Nordost to give it definition. |
Muralman, I also use the Speltz anti-ic's in my system, very nice cable. Still, the fact it doesn't use a dialectic doesn't make it inherently better. The Speltz cable has it's own noise to add to my system, in the form of increased rfi and emi.
I too can hear what each cable does in a very revealing system, the Cardas Golden Ref. will be the correct choice for many systems. |
No, to me the neutral Ref were not bright at all - I found them to be full bodied open with a smidge of warmth - The Golden Cross a bit slower, smaller sound stage and lots of warmth - I have been using the Golden Cross / Nordost combo for about a year now and am very pleased with that synergy - I still own the Neutral Ref speaker cable - They are sitting in a box with another NR cable I have purchased to be used in a future Surround set up - The Neutral Ref are more revealing so they might highlight any weakness in a system - Golden Cross are way more forgiving - I would like to try the Golden Ref - I have heard that they have the positive qualities of both the NR and the GC - That would be terrific if it is true. Tony |
I can't somehow imagine how a cable that spews dielectric noise into the signal can be beneficial for certain systems. But, if that is what is, then who am I to argue.
How do I know the Golden Reference is noisy? My system is that sensitive. |
As I said before any review has to be taken in context of the system its in, also, as MrTennis mentioned, the perception of the listener. You cannot make judgments about how a cable will work for you until you experience it within your system.
I reiterate, Cardas Golden Refs are essentially neutral cables, wildly differing opinions only serve to reinforce that assertation. You don't hear such differing opinions about Nordost or PAD, Nordost, warm, PAD, thin, I don't think so! |
Firedrums, you don't find the NR to be bright on the highs? So, do you use the NR or Nordost now?
SNS, you say the GR would give more "body than mouth". However, that is the opposite of the reviewer I referred to. He claimed there was more of the mouth, less of the body. Confusing.
Chris in Netherlands, the Crescendos I had reviewed were borrowed and not for sale. There are personal reasons I did not end up purchasing Crescendo though I had intentions of doing so.
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Hi - I have experience with the Neutral Ref & golden Cross Speaker cables - Both cables are excellent - The golden Cross are as you might have read - are a very musical warm cable - This is 100% true so if you looking to tame your system a bit and add some mid bass look no further - The neutral ref surprisingly are also warm but are way more open - presents a bigger sound stage at least with my gear. I have also used a GC Interconnects between Cd and integrated with both speaker cables - I found this combo to be to much of a good thing - I prefer a faster open non coloring interconnect - like Nordost - This combo works very well for me - The last big improvement to my sound was switching from a monster conditioner to a Shunyata - This also made a drastic improvement to my system - All these changes made absolute and dramatic changes to my gear - Hope that helps...Tony |
Mrtennis you are right about everyone having an opinion and perhaps a different listening experience. However, I was one of the person's that stated the Cardas Golden Cross is a warm cable and you can believe that to be the absolute truth when compared to the Nordost SPM's that I was using for the past few years. Everything is relevant!! If you have ever heard Nordost, you would say that Cardas is on fire!! |
one of the problems of elicitingopinions about cables or any other compoents is differences in perception.
two listeners exposed to the same stereo system could voice diametrically opposite perceptions about what they here.
it seems that if you place 4 audiophiles in the same room, there will be 5 opinions.
an experience i had at jabuary ces illustrates this point.
at one of the rooms in the ventian, i midly objected to the treble response. some adjustment of room treatment materials occured. we listened again. i objected again and there was a disagreement between about 6 people in that room.
be careful of eliciting opinions. the same product can be described using opposite terms. in the context of this thread, i am surprised that anyone describes the cardas cable as warm. i don't find any of their cables warm.
let me add one more experience. a friend visited me and described my stereo system as "muffled", where as, i disagreed saying it was quite extended. assuming no hearing loss, such a difference in perceptions is perplexing. |
