Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil


I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
Grannyring, the midrange texture and presence is undisputedly"The Best".

Strange that you found it tipped up, as i clearly confirmed testing in separate setups, it is midrange centric and tipped up in the upper mids. I found the cast resistors caused the uppermids to be tipped up.

The Jupiter coppers are very nicely balanced overall, but i don't exactly find the "special" in any way.

I have be trying to bypassing the 1uf cu duelund and have found a 0.1 mundorf SIO to be nice overall - more highs, details, faster with better bass. The 0.01 vcap tftf has extremely deep bass and clear but causes the midrange to go flat!

I will be trying a SGO bypass, on order as the duelund 0.01 silver foil bypass are out of stock of another several weeks. I wonder if this will be the best way to extract and balance the sound of the Cast Cu.

I happened to come accross last night a dutch (i think) reveiw of the new hubrid Duelund. It,s basically half a CU cap connected with another half(at least they say) to form 1 cap of the desired value. Orientation of silver +ve and cu -ve is recommended.

It was still found to be lacking in the exact same areas discussed above in my findings, but improved upon the CU. It still did not bring out sufficient speed, highs, deep bass. The review found the opposite orientation with silver portion out to be slighter better, giving more of the silver tone.

I think if it works, a bypass with a small silverfoil cap might be the answer. Sadly, to retain much of the Cu's tone and bring out the highs will inevitably cause the loss in the tone and analogue smoothness of the CU cast. Any cap which opens up the staging and frequency extremes will disturb this delicate balance. Especially a pure silver foil bypass, any comments?

The review ended that all duelund was not the way and he has a jensen pure silverfoil to replace the 2nd set of CU cast in his preamp stage and found it to be the best combination.

The Duelund or full Duelund will still be best for certain types of music, i.e vocals, chamber and classical.

So i may end the quest for the perfect cap and live with a small bypass. Sadly, didnt couldnt get myhands on the new duelund silverfoils to test.
CAST are great caps, but in my system I found them too tipped up in the upper mids and lacking in deep bass compared to the Jupiter copper foil caps. I found the Jupiter caps evenly balanced from top to bottom with no exaggerated upper mids.

I would still use them in the right system to arrive at a net sound I desire.
Volleyguy,

I had my share of oily leaking caps and broken connection with the cast. It's alot of money. You know the casts probably better.

They do some magic in the midrange that the close competitors cannot do. Naturalness to the sound starting from the midrange and not perfect in any way.

The casts is organic and midrange centric, doing the tube vocal trick so well. The hybrid come in to take up the slack in areas in the highs, bass depth and detail that ..... other premium caps do better.

I have just ordered the silver foil to bypass the cast (copper) and have excellent result using mundorf silver oils which came in as a bandaid to add openness, detail, speed and slam to the casts. The forte of the cast is the glowing midrange which ...NO other capacitor can give.

It just gets me thinking how the $30 0.1uf mundorf add so much more to the cast costing 10X the price. Making it sound more like the Jupiter copper foils, whilst having the midrange that the jupiter lacks. IMO, the jupiter does the detail, openness and definition way more acceptably.

the only reason it stays is that midrange presence, almost 300b tube like. but with all the difficiencies of the 300b tube sound.
HiFi News a long article about the Denman horn from 1929.

Absolute monster over 7' high square at mouth and 27' long.

Clearly not made for your living room but Denman did make one for his house. (Predating Japanese audiophiles) Apparently astonishing sound. WE 555W driver of which Klipsch tried to copy.

That speaker (mono era) spawned the folded horn to use the walls and no doubt save space.

I know Steen Duelund was into horns and making huge horns. Based on the Denman horn?

Today Duelund is thought of as caps and resistors but Steen had a wide interest in Audio.

I would be interesting to hear from Duelund what was Steen's thoughts?
Regarding the Clarity TC caps in amplifier power supplies. I am using them in a rebuild of my Lafayette KT-550 power amp. I have been very pleased with these caps (I am using the 50uf, 75uf and 110uf values).

Compared to the original electrolytics and some new panasonic caps that were recommended by other rebuilders, the Clarity TC caps have a smoother sound with less harshness in the upper ranges. The midrange is less pronounced, while still maintaining lifelike qualities.

Regarding coupling capacitors in a tube pre-amp:
I am thinking of replacing the coupling caps that are currently Audyn Q4 series. These caps are in the phono stage and the line stage, so the replacement caps must be very very quiet.

I am thinking of the following replacement caps: Audyn True Copper, Duelund, Mundorf Silver in Oil or the new Jupiter Copper caps.

The space is very tight, so I have to probably stay away from large caps. The current caps take only 1" in width in between the solder points.

Why replace the Audyn Q4 series coupling caps? The sound is a bit harsh on the to end and the upper midrange is a bit forward. I am hoping that upgrading the coupling caps will alleviate these issues and also give some more 3D depth to the soundstage. A cap with some meat on the bones and upper frequency smoothness would be welcomed.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
I have not used them and likely will not just due to price.

Would like to hear myself what some think.

Read U.K. Stereo magazine today HiFi choice?

Talking about how they thought for many years the source was the most important thing. (being Linn LP12 guys which I have an older loaded LP 12 as well) They have a pic of my speakers (co-incident) (Klipsch Lascala) and talk about how they do things modern speakers can not.

They think the issue stems back to the mono age when one big speaker was how you created life like image. When two channel stereo came out speakers became smaller and the importance of the source grew.

Now they are not so sure it was correct.

They likened the comparison to old film cameras that took very good quality pictures but did not have the quality of today's lenses but since they used a much larger film format it did not matter.

Meaning big speakers (horns in this case) do not need as precise a source to create life like sound.

I never thought I would hear this (main stream audio magazine) but maybe Steen's thoughts on the speakers being the most important part of the system is coming back? Now take the Lascala's they are listening too and mod them to the hilt like mine with all Duelund and there is NO comparison to stock and become quite refined! (and life like tone like crazy)
Duelund recently released their copper/silver hybrid CAST cap. Anyone have used the caps for electronics? I've been a little wary about using their pure silver caps (besides the stratispheric price) due to a slight tonal thinning compared to pure copper mentioned by Jimmy Junkyard (personal communication). The hybrid cap may be best of both worlds.
Ok you Agon modifiers.....I have a comment and question. I just finished modifying my preamp so the filament heaters are powered by battery. Yeah, 6 volt rechargeable gel cell battery. I simply charge it with a separate filament tranny and turn off the power to the filament filter when the battery is fully charged.

More quiet background and I like the result very much. A nice lift in SQ for sure.

Have you folks done this?

Mine is set up to run 100% battery and if and when the battery drains I can simply turn on the filament filter power supply.
Salectric, Thanks for the reminder. I know you are referring to the DUELUND pancakes but still Interesting since I have my 630v Duelund Cast mounted on its side on a very thin piece of ply wood using Blue tack and the physical solder joints to hold it in place. Wondering what they might sound like mounted upright.
Reminder: Duelund CAST caps are quite sensitive to how they are mounted. In my experience, if the cap is lying flat on a wood surface, there are annoying colorations: a thick, excessively warm bass, and dark high frequencies. I have tried several types of plywood and hardwood as well as aluminum, and none of them was satisfactory if the cap was lying flat on the surface. The best sounding mounting for me is to have 3 small plywood cubes under the cap to elevate it off the wood surface by 3/4" or so. Each cube is made from 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood. I have tried various cones and other spacers, but the BB cubes are still my favorite (so far).

I am only talking about the CAST pancake caps (100v speaker crossover types). I didn't experiment with different mounting of the 630v caps, and I no longer use them.

I mentioned all this in a post on this thread a year ago, but it is worth repeating. Besides I can't imagine any newcomers actually reading this entire thread.
Well, I have sold modded speakers for a higher price then I paid on two occasions. It depends on several factors. Your overall feedback, quality of the work done, and finding the right buyer who is educated on this sort of thing. Usually this person is a DIY kind of buyer to be honest, but not always.
Where can you go to listen to a modded speaker to see if it will work for you? Much more difficult. You a taking a much bigger chance on a modded one. What that risk results in can be poor resale value.
Why is the resale vale poor on modded speakers?/ If the sound is better, why would that be a negative?
Grannyring
I agree I believe we both hear the caps exactly the same. The original point of this thread was to give a person an idea of what to expect. Caps of course provide HUGE change in sound but the resale is obviously poor. So nice to avoid poor choices.

I moved the Jupiter caps to my bedroom system which knowing how they sound is the kind of sound I am looking for there. (using still in phono stage)

Without a doubt Jupiter's are quieter. I can not imagine a quieter cap. When there is a singer the voice is suspended with an uncanny pitch blackness around it. Just crazy and this was with one cap!

Jupiter's are also quieter than CAST or any cap that I have heard?

The downside is the Jupiter's are quieter than the actual event. (to me)

The RS shine in organic bloom, nice weight, natural sound, real feeling venue energy. (at the expense of what can be perceived as noise)

Not sure if you are aware of this Grannyring but Steen used vintage caps before making his own. (VSF) Vintage caps are not low resonance. So his voicing would tend toward that direction.

My amps are vintage and Duelund caps are wayyyy better versions in all ways but still in the same area.
Thanks Grannyring !

There are so many answers like this one about mixing different capacitors. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Bypassing.html

I think first I will test now what I have already. If I'm not happy I will buy another 40uF duelund for the middle speakers.
Interesting comments on the Duelund requiring you to set the treble tone control to -2. That corresponds to my findings exactly. I found them slightly tipped in the upper mids/low highs and I don't have tone controls. Over time this very slight emphasis was not as musical to my ears, in my system, as the Jupiter caps.

I do suffer tinnitus and I require my highs and upper mids to be smooth and not even the slightest bit emphasized. The dead quiet and ruler flat response of the Jupiter caps really have me smiling.

The noise they remove also helps my tinnitus.

I also find the Jupiter caps soar higher in the highs with more air. Important not to confuse this with a slight emphasis in the highs as they are not the same.

I found this difference in electronics and cannot speak as expertly on speaker use.

I try to post these details so readers get a sense of the flavor differences as one one cap is not better than the other in all conditions and for all needs.

I can say this. Jupiter copper foil caps burried in Reptisand filled crossover boxes are astoundingly quiet and absent of noise. Shockingly so.
The RS are getting some hours on them. My guess is they sound very close to VSF that I have already.

Like Junker said a great deal of tone, neutrality, detail and spatiality.

Even after 4 years of doing this I am still stunned at what difference even 1 cap makes!

You would think all higher end caps would converge on a similar sound. Not at all the case.

Jupiter vs. Duelund RS.
First of all I have tone controls. (so imbalances easily corrected)
With the Jupiter's I treble is set to neutral with the Duelund it is -2.

The Jupiter's create an absolute black background that is beyond belief. (literally beyond belief) A singer will have blackness around their voice that does not sound natural to me.

The Duelund's are not so tidy but oh sooooo organic sounding.

Grannyring has mentioned things to reduce noise like the sand etc. if one is looking to reduce noise Jupiter is "the" cap...

The Duelund's are just so natural sounding. The RS sat here for close to a month me not putting them in. I was somewhat worried Duelund was going to go all super low noise in the Jupiter direction being wax. To be honest the first time I was not excited about Duelund.

You have heard it from me on here before I wanted a cap between the CAST and VSF but closer to CAST. The RS might be that cap? Not sure yet but like the VSF sounds very good right out of the box CAST took some break in.

My phono stage is now all Jupiter after that all Duelund. (have not listened yet) I might do up one of the other amps with RS and maybe some of those Silver CAST?
Getting further along on the RS break-in...and they seemed to really open. At some point with my Mazda chrome plate gain tubes etc I was feeling too much top end emphasis.

And then in my tube amp I replaced some cheap 0.1uF MKP coupling caps with 0.22uF Supremes that I had and around this same time I regained just about all of the spatiality that I felt lacking upon initial install of the RS. Now, a couple days later I feel I have a great deal of tone, neutrality, detail, and spatiality. Not sure if the RS are still coming in and to what extent the coupling upgrade cap had but right now I'm very happy with the RS's and I don't feel they are doing anything wrong. I'll still run this is for a bit longer and give some final impressions.

Also, I wanted to mention that Chris Johnson put together a massive bulk buy of 0.01uF Duelund Cast Silver caps for use as by-pass caps and told us that he will have very good pricing on them because of the quantity order, and that the use of these will go a long way toward bringing the best of both worlds with CAST silver.
Based on postings in this thread, the value in upgrading is definately there and worthwhile. Now, it's a matter of spending money in a speaker for better listening or selling as is and finding another speaker.
I wanted to clarify my posting. I had spoken to John Tucker who was very honest and straightforward in regards to his lsa monitors. He did give me the values of the crossover. The subsequent posting from me was from someone who mods speakers and gave his recommendations for upgrading.
Volleyguy,
I can understand your conclusion regarding the Duelund CAST, it's a very special product my friend.
Nyaudio98,
It's refreshing that a builder/designer is so encouraging and supportive of upgrading their product. Some builders downplay or don't believe their products can be improved very much. Better parts(not necessarily the most expensive) do "matter" and can improve sound quality, no question. In my system carefully improving part quality(which was already good) is well worth the additional cost.It wasn't a case of bad to good parts, but rather good to excellent parts.Good luck.
Charles,
Installed the Duelund RS plus finished installing Jupiter's in the phono stage and moved Jupiter to office system and the VCap Cuft I have as well. (all tonight)

Spent a few hours listening tonight and first impression is promising. (of the RS)

I see Tony Gee has some Jupiter Copper Foil caps for speakers. It will be interesting his take.

My take is Jupiter is dead quiet around the voices instruments not as real sounding as Duelund. (over damped sound)

I left the Jupiter vs. Jensen Copper Foil in for a long time. Which one would I get? The Jupiter's (especially if the cost was lower) but neither as good as any Duelund to me. I just can not get enough of the full rich organic sound.

The Duelund just sound so right. With the Jupiter I missed the CAST. Tonight was the longest I have enjoyed music since the CAST leaked and were taken out.
Grannyring, your feedback is epic and much appreciated!! I'd want the best imaging possible and very detailed music.
Nice of the builder to share all that with you! Very nice. I would start by replacing the resistors only. Buy some Path Audio as they are better sounding than the mighty Duelund. Let those settle in an enjoy the improvement. They made a big difference.

Do you have Dynamicaps? Solen? If so, I suggest looking at the Jupiter Flat stacked VT or HT line. The are expensive, but great sounding.

I would wait on that and start with the resistors. The jupiter caps are large and may not fit on the board so you may need to "MacGyver" them in! Love that phrase.

Clarity are good caps also, but please tell me the kind of sound you like. The Jupiter flat stacked are rich, organic and full bodied with good transparency also. The Clarity caps will perhaps be more detailed.
have the lsa statement speakers...this is what the owner/enginner said about speakers..

The resisters are 6.2 and 12 ohms. The caps are 4uf and 10uf. The inductors are 1.2mh and .357mh.
We certainly have great parts available to dramatically improve sonics of these speakersÂ…the only issue is your budget, and whether you are going to be doing the work, or someone else.

Space limitations are also an issue….some customers want parts to fit into the existing cross-over board…others, can “McGuyer” a larger board to still be internally mounted….. And others still, retrofit the cross-over outside the cabinet.You can go MILLS resistors, with CLARITY ESA caps ($100 to $150 for the pair)…..or, DUELUND resistors and CLARITY MR CAPS…and be in the $400 + range.

Without seeing a schematic, IÂ’d stay away for changing the INDUCTORSÂ….

However, if you do, MUNDORF Copper Foil inductors can be unwound to you exact value needs, for a change of $5 per inductorÂ…go with 14 awg. ****** feedback?
Here is a link to buy it.....

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017UB3PI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00076HTU6&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=06A2AVMSP8QW30CNYRKN

Completely covering the board was the big pay off!
Grannyring,

Could you share some good sources of quartz reptisand?

I could put an inch or two of it in my external crossover boxes and have the tone wood with the crossover parts/circuit rest on it.

Thanks,

VPN
Marqmike, I agree 100% that more builders should do this. The reality is it does cost more, takes up more room, some won't like the added boxes and aesthetics etc...

Some builders already put $10 caps and $3 resistors in $10,000-$20,000 speakers. Building and properly damping an outboard chassis is most likely way to costly.

If you are willing and capable DIY can bring you substantial sound quality improvements for a relatively modest investment.
I see, then I would upgrade the caps to Jupiter copper foil and wax and the resistors to Path Audio. This would be a very significant improvement. Go whole hog and place the crossover in a separate box outside the speaker!

You could also upgrade the internal hook up wire.
The speaker above and better then the signature is the statement which I have. Grannyring, thank you very much for your posts and info.
I think that would be a big improvement. I remember tapping a capacitor when a signal was going through it and it easily rang. In light of what you state Grannyring I am somewhat surprised that out board xovers are not more common. I don't think it would cost much more if anything.
I posted this once, but you AGON DIY guys must try this if you have not done it as yet. The single most important sound quality upgrade I have heard is removing the crossover parts from the bombastic vibrating speaking box and making it outboard. This is so darn important and really makes your expensive passive component upgrades shine.

Don't stop here. Once the crossover is outboard, dampen it. I floated the crossover board in the middle of 30 pounds of Reptisand. I was absolutely shocked at the improvement. Stunning folks. Talk about removing noise and greatly improving focus and imaging. Oh my. Yeah, I know many won't do this for obvious reasons, but the sonic results are fantastic.

I started by just filling the box under the crossover board and listened. A definite improvement. I then buried the whole thing, totally buried, and the result was even better.

Some have done this with sand and that is fine for damping. However the Reptisand made with Quartz is a much better dialetric. Make sure it is Quartz as Reptisand comes in different forms and you want Quartz.

I vacuumed out all the sand and listened again. I could not wait to put the Reptisand back in as it is so much better sounding. What it does to remove noise is shocking. I had no idea I even had this "noise".

Bass is tighter and more articulate. The background or space between the Instruments and voice is black as black gets. The music is more natural sounding with more heft and body. Any vestige of glare has been removed.
The music is more effortless and the tone is so intoxicating.

The sand is very, very fine and smooth so it will not harm your components. I was able to vacuum it out easily. I sealed my box well and have no plans to vacuum it out again :)

I am not the first to try this Reptisand as I learned of it from others.
NYaudio98

Your speaker also comes in a signature version with a better Tweeter. If it fits in the very same cutout, then use that tweeter. Check with the builder.

From there you can upgrade the resistors and caps with the very same values. Your builder puts Dynamicaps in as an upgrade in the Signature model. They are good, but you can do better.

Please tell us what sound quality improvements you are after.

The biggest single improvement I have heard with all the mods and upgrades I have done to crossovers is this....

Take the crossover out of that vibrating and energy bombarding enclosure. Then dampen the heck out of your outboard crossover. This yields the single biggest improvement, but it takes more DIY skill. Not possible for all. Some don't want to do this mod as it also changes the original design substantially possibly hurting resale. This is a labor of love for one really into this sort of thing.
Your speakers are stunning and you are a very talented wood worker/craftsmen. They are the finest DIY speaker cabs I have ever set my eyes on. Congratulations!

I assume your values are correct, but must say I question 94uf of capacitance on the mids. Again, I will assume your right and make a suggestion.

I would not mix all the different brand of caps on each driver. All the different sonic flavors of each cap combined with the different materials in each cap could result in a bad or wrong sounding speaker. Some combinations work, while others will spoil the broth and sound horrendous.

Stick with one brand and model of cap on each driver.....do not mix unless the other brand is used as a small value bypass cap (under .47 uf or so).

Also, if breaking up the 94 uf cap is a must, then try to do so with caps of equal value or as close as you can get. For example nine 10uf caps and one 4uf. Six 15 uf caps etc........

Experienced builders suggest this is always best for sound quality.

I cannot stress enough to not mix 3 or 4 different brands of caps on your individual drivers. You cannot know the end result and will be playing sound quality Russian roulette.

Your speaker cabinate to simply to special to be ruined by this move. Your drivers are also very high quality. Again, very well done and I am impressed with your talent!
Hi all.

I have 3 way speakers nad need 12uF tweeter , 94 uF Mids
I ordered 8.2 uF and 2.2 uF CAST for tweeter and wil mix it with Mundorf SGO to get 12uF.

Fir the Mids I have 40uF VSF and 30uF Mundorf SO , 10uF Mundorf SG and 10uF Mundorf SGO , 2.2 Audyn True Copper 2 pcs.

My question is is it better to preserve the caps to full CAST on the tweeter? Or can I better thaI e the CAST 2.2 or 8.2 move from tweeter to the Mids ?

Or better to buy VSF for the tweeter like 4uF and mix it with 8.2 CAST? And move the 2.2 CAST to the Mids.

My speakers are DIY : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/234483-my-new-concept.html
Jet,
I believe the term "neutral" as used in audio conversation is meant to denote a lack of coloration.In reality every component and audio part has a signature or sonic character. Tubes,transistors, metals,class A, AB or D, there's no such thing as pure neutral. Everyone chooses a certain sound character they find the most agreeable and least compromised for their needs.To say something is natural/organic doesn't deny the presence of some innate signature(impossible to eliminate). Natural to me means more life like/real and less artificial in presentation. Jet based on your use of this term I'd guess your definition of natural is similar to mine. More life like and able to communicate much more of the emotion and soul of music when listening. Anyway Jet I definately get your point.
I should also qualify what I characterized as a the darker sound of the Deulund CAST as compared to the Vcap Teflon. As the Duelunds continue to break in, that darkness clears and has become a rich and natural presentation. Emphasis on natural. As Charles has indicated, the Duelund CAST present music in an extremely natural and organic way. They dont sound neutral to me. Somehow they are able to sound completely natural and tonally colorful and rich all at the same time. Very engaging in my system.
Junker
I was glad to see on Tony Gee cap review he retreated the Supremes up to 10 from 9.

He had them rated not much better than Sonicaps and to me they were much better. (good value and better than the Silver in Oil I thought)

Jet
Duelund is all about the rich tonal pallet...

There is some good value caps out there Mundorf Supreme, Jupiter. No need for new builds to use cheap crappy parts...
Junker to be honest I have lost track of how many hours are on the Duelunds. They have been in for over three weeks and may have a little more than 200 hours. They may only be one half of the 400 hours folks say they need to be broken in. So to answer your question wait about 200 hours before starting to evaluate their sound.
Thanks for the info Jet! Even though your CAST are bit different than the VSF / RS how long would you characterize the break-in period...maybe not to the very last iota of finality, but say 80% the way to their final voicing? 2 weeks?

My previous Mundorfs took a good 2-4 weeks and it was a real roller coater and a process that I hated because I was never sure if I had made a mistake or not...in the end it was a damn good $30 cap. So now I know to hold off on making any rash judgments.

I'm pretty sure the RS's are starting to improve after a few days, but yesterday I kinda had fun a put on a 0.01uF Sprague Vitamin Q that I just received for fun. After another week or so I'll play around with and without to see if it's worth doing, or if the RS's should be left sacrosanct. ;)
A weekago I wrote this about my .1uf Duelund copper cast 630v caps:

Salectric, We may not be so far apart on the Duelund's sound as my description has made you think. They are more natural sounding but I don't like the extra darkness they are creating in my system at this point.

Another week of break in has past and I need to amend this comment. The Duelunds are still a bit darker sounding than my Vcap TFTF but now they are letting thru a very detailed rich tonal pallet that is more natural sounding and is connecting me emotionally with the music. This emotional connection is very important to me. They are warmer than the Vcaps but now all the detail is coming thru in a more natural way. Richer and warmer but with more detail. More detail and with a bigger richer color tonal pallet than the Vcaps. This actually might be special. I'll know more in about a weeks more of listening time - Jet
Initial impressions right out of the box were less detail and a compressed soundstage. Also, less exuberant and a bit quieter. A short time later I wasn't certain they were much, if any, quieter, but rather encouraged me to play louder due to a reduced sense of shrillness. Detail? shrill? Hard to say but the Supreme is a damn good $30 cap and anyone on a budget can't go too wrong for this price point. A few hours into the new caps and they are sounding great... Not finding much to comment on at this point other than they are easy to play louder, and thus far don't have any obvious faults. Let's see what happens over the next week or two. After going through a banshee-like burn-in process with the Supremes I will not be surprised at all if things change significantly. After all Gee did lead his review with the following sentence, "Sound: After many hours of burn-in time the main thing that I kept writing about in my notes was how natural the Duelund RS-Cu sounds." =)
Here are few pics from the install today! ;-)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58102603/IMG_5021.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58102603/IMG_5017.JPG
Junker, I think you will be very pleased with the results. Let us know your initial reaction as well as your impressions after burn in.