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Volley guy, I believe that Yazaki-san (the person responsible for bringing the WE16ga to our attention via Jeff Day blog, jeffsplace.me) mentioned that if your speaker cable is longer than three (3) meters, you might consider the WE14ga, if I remember correctly. Best, Rob |
Just curious why not 14ga? |
Anyone tried the Solid Western Electric wire?
I did not care for the Duelund solid copper compared to Silver. |
I should say the internal wires are lamp cord. |
I know some of you guys have compared WE to some very expensive cable.
I will be replacing lamp cord! (office system speakers I bought really for the Alnico tweeter) Paul Klipsch did some nice work with the Klipschorn's but did not believe in the effects of wire. (using lamp cord!)
It is interesting the compression drivers are copies of Western Electric and he did use AlNiCo magnets. So for sure he knew of Western Electric wire.
I went from stock lamp cord to Duelund Silver 2.0 and it was much better but not as much as a single cap in the amp. (well maybe I should say different kind of improvement) |
Ha! Yes very sorry. Meant 16 gauge. Some have purchased 14 and 16 is the one that is proven! |
I think Grannyring meant to say WE 16ga, not 14ga. The color does not matter, just be sure it is 16ga stranded tinned copper. I am going to experiment and try the WE14ga stranded tinned copper in a couple of applications. Every descriptor Grannyring has used about the WE16ga is spot on. Best, Rob |
Yes purchase only from the ebayer you mentioned. Get the 14 gauge stranded only. Can be black or red from the seller. Get ready for a big positive surprise! Oh my! |
I am looking at getting some of the Western Electric wire just want to make sure I get the correct one. Any advice? Tajacobs? On ebay and does colour matter? I want to rewire internals in speaker in office as well which is getting much better. (all those Jupiter, Jensen and VCaps in the amp)
I have been reading the thread on audiogon on the Western Electric.
Cable has always been kind of the joke of the industry. Crazy money and if you are feeding the signal through crappy crossover parts it is just crazy.
I have always wondered about Western Electric and not just the wire. They seemed to be on to something. Many of their parts still regarded as at the top. |
Hi Rob,
I believe that when you start with a fundamentally solid foundation and good design, the amplifier responds to upgraded high quality parts/tweaks. Keep in mind that you have speakers that allow this amplifier to reach its potential sonic/musical performance.
Charles |
Charles,
A simple note on the Coincident Dynamo 34SE: as I suspected from the start that this little amp would respond well to upgrades, I must say it has exceeded my expectations. The Dynamo has responded to every tube or wire change in a significant and meaningful manner. All the listening attributes enumerated above in "timbral listening" are truly being met with enormous success with some quality frosting on the cake as Jeff Day stated; for example, the soundstage is big, well-defined, holographic, if you will. Imaging, excellent. On well-recorded material this amp is astounding. It is difficult for me after all these years to comprehend it. And to think, "the best is yet to come," with the Yazaki-san guided changes to capacitor, resistor and internal wire. "Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!!" Best, Rob |
Hello Charles,
I feel extremely fortunate to have scored the older NOS Mullard High Wycombe CV378 "Fat Bottle". I spoke with Israel about this tube as well as "skinny bottle"; he was very enthusiastic about this tube plus liked the slow start. I read Dubstep Girl review of 5U4GB and their equivalent tubes. I must say she is accurate in her assessment on the brands I have tried. Dubstep was reviewing with a Woo headphone amp, so not apples to apples, but it worked out alright. Yazaki-san likes the NOS GEC and Marconi types like U52, for example, as well as some others. Yazaki-san sent Jeff Day a really nice NOS 5U4G rectifier under the Haltron banner, but since they never made their own tubes I wonder what it is? I'll have to ask. |
The Mullard CV378 outperforms the GE retifier in my listening comparison. The fat bottle CV378 is said to be the ultimate version but are very rare these days. Rob you should feel fortunate to own this tube.
Charles, |
Hi Brownsfan,
Here is the link to Belden 8402 interconnect: http://btpa.com/IC8402-XX.html
Remember, you must order a minimum of ten (10) feet of cable, for example, one six foot pair terminated; have them terminated with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA. |
I've never been a big fan of the Mullards, despite all the hype. I prefer the GE 5U4GBs that Israel supplies with the Franks, and they are much cheaper than the Mullards. The CV378 skinnys are great tubes, in my estimation. By all accounts, the fat bottles Rob found are a step up from the skinnys.
I'm still using the PSVane EL34 phillips replicas in my dynamo, along with one of the GE 5u4GB rectifiers and the red base 5691s. I am eager to hear what Rob finds when he starts replacing the caps. |
Rob, I am going to leave that 29 ft section of the WE 16 alone until I am sure what I want to do with it. It won't be enough to use with my dynamo based system, which will be in my living room in the new house. I could use it in my main system upstairs, but that will require cutting it into small lengths for double runs. I want to make sure of what I want to do with it before getting out the wire cutters.
Where did you get the Beldon? I do want to get at least one pair of these ICs on their way. |
Charles/Jetrexpro,
I have a pair of High Wycomb Fat Bottle CV378 that I am saving for the big Franks...but In the meantime my Coincident Dynamo is really sounding superb, especially with the WE16ga and Belden 8402, RCA Red Base 5691, Shuguang Black Treasure 6CA7, and the Mullard skinny bottle CV378. Now, I can only imagine what Yazaki-san suggestions will bring to this already wonderful little amp. Rob |
The Mullard CV378 drops more voltage than the 5AR4. If your amp has a B+ of say 425v with the 5ar4 your B+ with the CV378 will drop to around 405v. In my amp the CV 378 makes the sound more relaxed more rich and luxurious. 5ar4 sounds more dynamic and it makes the amp sound more taught. I hear the sound breathing more naturally with the CV378. I switch them out quite often as it's fun to hear the amp react with the different rectifiers. |
Rob,
The Mullard CV378 has the same positive effect in the Frankenstein as well. It made an excellent amplifier sound even better. This rectifier tube along with the Elrog 300b yields superlative tone. The Mullard is definitely worth its cost.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
Glad that you purchased some WE16ga. I believe you will like it. Buy a couple meters of the Belden 8402as well. Very simpatico with the WE. I'm also very happy to see you pop up here and I truly hope your move, selling your house is going well.
I replaced the Mullard 5AR4 in the Coincident Dynamo with a NOS Mullard CV378 skinny coke bottle shaped rectifier. I like it very much. Better timbre, better bass, bigger stage, but most importantly, better tone across the board, lots of texture and tonal color, etc. |
Justubes2,
Most of the WE16ga has been bought off eBay from seller tajacobs. No, it is not the solid core, but WE16ga stranded tinned copper, about 25 strands. Unfortunately for now, the legitimate best seller of the WE is almost out of it, apparently only end of spool and scrap ends. I don't know if he'll be able to replenish his stock. Best of luck, but I think Japan and Taiwan, maybe Hong Kong, still has some sellers with this wire, but be careful, some of these sellers appear to have crappy lots, if authentic. Rob |
Are these off ebay? Are they silk sleeve solid core version? |
Grannyring and Rob, I managed to snag 29 ft based on your recommendations. I'm going to hold it undisturbed until I'm sure how to put it to best use. My guess is that reverse engineering this stuff won't be that hard. But I am glad I got a usable length of the original.
Makes one wonder how many under appreciated treasures from days gone by are resting on someone's dusty shelf. |
Grannyring,
Yes, it is almost gone, looks like only end of rolls. I've personally been scouting the world for spools of the WE16ga with no luck although I know smaller amounts exist in Japan and Taiwan. I agree with you, this is the best wire I have listened to as well regardless of price. I also have enough wire to wire several amps and several speaker internals plus several reasonable lengths for speaker cables doubled up. Whew!!! Glad you took a chance. I'm happy I acted promptly for once in my life. |
The WE16g stranded wire seems to be drying up. I purchased more for future amp projects but had to buy the end of roll stuff. Shame when it is all gone. Some of the unprinted red left I see. I purchased more of that also.
This stuff is the best wire I have listened to regardless of price. |
Agree on Dudley musical tastes and choices. I've always enjoyed his writing since subscribing to Listener over twenty years ago. If I wasn't moving in the direction I am I might go Shindo like Dudley. I likely agree with you on the political stuff as well...but too much of that in my dailey life as it is. Best, Rob |
Hi Rob,
Reading that I'd say I'm cut from the same cloth. Musical attributes are more important to me than the sonic ones. I suspect being into acoustic jazz like they happened to be, we'd listen/hear that way by default. I believe Art Dudley falls into this category also. We seem to like(and dislike) the same type of audio components for the most part. Politically we're polar opposites LOL!
Charles, |
Hello Charles,
I thought it useful to reprint Jeff Day's "Listening Bias" since he articulates it so succinctly, matches exactly how I listen, plus, if you read Yazaki-san's own words about how he came to find his own sound, the pursuit of "Real Sound" and his design philosophy I think you will understand that we are all "kindred spirits" in how we listen.
From Jeff Day Blog on Listening Bias:
"Thought it might be handy for those following my writing at Positive Feedback Online to know what my listening biases are to aid you in interpreting and decoding my reviews. Just to alert you, my listening perspective is somewhat of a minority opinion in the Hi-Fi community of North America, but will be more familiar to those listeners in Turkey, Africa, and Japan, who tend to be more familiar with timbral ways of listening. My hierarchy of importance is aligned more closely to how well a Hi-Fi rig plays the musical content of recordings (I know, it’s a heretical concept), rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.
As a result of my being drawn towards the musical content of recordings, I tend to be a bit more of a timbral listener than is typical for a lot of Westerners, meaning that the reproduction of the textures, colors, and tones & overtones in the music are really important to me. To this end I look for timbral realism at the band level (the band’s signature ‘sound’) and at the individual instrument level (the unique ‘voices’ of instruments). I want them to sound recognizably like themselves in tone and texture, so that their full tone color can develop, which I think helps lend a feeling of beauty and expressiveness to the music. I like the melody (the tune you ‘whistle while you work’), harmony (treble & bass accompaniments to the melody) and rhythm (the steady beat that determines the tempo) to have a life-like flow and connectedness in how the musicians interact—just like in real life. I want dynamics (variations in loudness) to evoke that which I hear in life for an emotional connection to the melody and rhythm. For loudness I like my music playback to be similar to live loudness levels, which for the kind of music I listen to the most, jazz, usually means 80 dB or louder. Finally, I want tempo portrayed so that both the mood and speed of the music are conveyed through it, just like it is with music in real life.
I consider the sonic performance of a Hi-Fi rig on the non-musical artifacts of the recording process to be of value, but of less importance to me than the performance on the musical content of recordings (as above). So things like transparency (being able to ‘see’ into the recording), soundstage (the three dimensions of the recorded space in width, height and depth), soundspace (the acoustic ‘space’ of the soundstage), and imaging (the feeling of solidity and localization of instruments & musicians on the soundstage) are important to me, but they are not my primary focus – the musical content is.
So I like my cake (the musical content of recordings) with a little frosting (the sonic artifacts of the recording process) for a balanced taste treat. Too much frosting and not enough cake puts me off. So thatÂ’s me, and you might be different, but at least now you know."
Well, that sums it up for me very nicely, that is how I listen. I obviously really enjoy Day's Blog, simpatico person in attitude toward family, food, wine, music; a "kindred spirit". I can trust what he writes about when it comes to equipment and music. Same for Yazaki-san who not only has great ears, but he can design/build/modify equipment to match the sound Day enumerates. Like you, both big Jazz aficionados. |
Rob,
Actually that description of listening preferences fits me very well. Those are exactly the things that get and hold my attention. Probably explains why some touted brands/components leave me cold and uninterested.
Charles, |
Hi Charles,
No, not really, I'd prefer to purchase one of Yazaki-San Western Electric DA30 SET amps. Now, I have't heard either of these amps yet. But let's say they sound nearly identical, I'd still go for the tube unit. Why? Complex answer that I'll have to perk on for a bit to articulate in a coherent manner.
I have the highest respect for Yazaki-san talent, ears as you stated above; he is a "kindred spirit" in the pursuit of "real sound". I, like Yazaki-san, listen differently than the typical audiophile. I quoted in an earlier thread Jeff Day's listening bias, "Timbral Listening" which matches exactly my own listening bias. I believe Yazaki-san, perhaps you too listen this way...prefer single ended DHT with highly efficient speakers. Timbre, tone, density, weight, fullness, color, texture, harmonic rightness, dynamics, transparent, natural, organic feel and flow, musical, emotional intent of musicians come through to the listener. Best, Rob
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Hi Rob,
I recognize that you are very impressed with Yazaki's talent, ears and thus his recommendations. Have you given serious consideration to perhaps purchasing his solid state Spec RAS integrated amplifier?
Charles, |
Volleyguy1,
Jeff did have his Mac's Capacitor and resistor brand changed to Arizona green and blue capacitors, resistors to Ohmite Brown Devils. You should read his latest blogs on all that change. A wonderful Japanese designer, Shirokazu Yazaki-san, recommended to Jeff about the WE16ga as well as the Arizona capacitor and Ohmite resistor as well as some other valuable information while Day was doing a review of Yazaki-san SPEC amp for Positive Feedback. |
Plus I have not heard much comparison of Duelund's new Silver hybrid to CAST.
In fact those new cap values would do my whole amp! |
Mikirob
I do check into Jeff's place a fair bit. Excellent site!
We both have horn speakers and 3 or 4 years ago on here I was asking Duelund to build autoformers and Jeff had them made for him. Which I was glad to hear! (and envious!)
I have mentioned in the past wanting to hear Western Electric caps to compare to Duelund. (I have not) A best of the past vs. best of today kind of thing.
My favourite amp is a 7591 style amp like the one Jeff uses. That amp was left all stock and my work was done on EL84 amps until firmly past the vintage 7591.
I was surprised Jeff (another big Duelund fan) used Teflon wrapped wire? (not all natural like cotton or Silk)
I am glad to hear he has compared to a cotton wrapped Western Electric which did not surprise me at all he would like better than Teflon wrapped.
I use Duelund Silver 2.0 which I really like but have not compared to copper Western Electric. (which I could use no matter what in office system over plastic wrapped wire I have now)
My whole top amp is Duelund caps except Jupiter in phono stage. (room reasons)
I bet it is a matter of time before Jeff mods his MacIntosh amps. I purposely bought amps at the start of this thread that were not hugely collectible so that when modded I was not destroying resale value.
I can say it is a jaw dropping improvement from vintage caps to Duelund. In my amp I have VSF, CAST and RS and all are good!
I just want one of those Duelund Autoformers like Jeff has just too much form me at this time. Then I will have no vintage parts left in the crossover!
Has anyone compared though directly Duelund Silver 2.0 to Western Electric. (which is MUCH cheaper!) |
Correction: jeffsplace@me.com |
Jeff Day wired his Dueland Cast with the WE16ga with great success. You can read about his use of the WE here: jeffplace@me.com. |
Anyone compared Western Electric to Duelund wire?
Interesting results to post soon. (about synergy) |
Thanks for your input Guys! |
PC123, the Jupiter flat stacked aluminum are exactly what you want. Sound exactly like you describe! |
Pc123v,
On a couple of speaker projects I moved from Mundorf S/G/O to Duelund VSF Copper and eventually CAST Copper for the same reasons you expressed. I was very pleased with the results. I do not have any experience with the Alexander, however. If the Alexander is constructed with pure copper film as are the VSF and CAST copper, I would think it would have the sonic character for which you are looking.
John |
Hi...anyone know if the Duelund Alexander PIO copper foil is any good and how do they compare to Mundorf Silver Gold Oil. I am seeking the less bright, smoother, richer of the two. Denser body in vocals is priority. Thanks. |
Charles,
You are correct that there are a number of good capacitor choices, never one universal best; but I've got to start somewhere, Yazaki-san is a quality starting point, perhaps an ending point. |
Hi Charles,
If you read Jeff Day's listening bias as well as Yazaki-san comments on his journey to find "Real Sound", it is extremely enlightened thinking and listening; and I think you would find it an interesting worthwhile read. How Yazaki-san actually found/made his own "Real Sound" choices is fascinating, goes against the normal listening bias of audiophile listening. I believe what he found out in his musical journey closely mirror what I am seeking. Jeff Day and some of his colleagues believe the change to Day's already fabulous system via Yazaki-san capacitor and resistor changes in conjunction with the WE16ga wire and Belden 8402 interconnect have brought Day's system up a notch or two, perhaps the best sound they have ever heard. Now, from these guys, that is saying a lot. Yes, I am going to pursue that " Real Sound" as Yazaki-san defines it. Best, Rob |
Rob,
Given Yazaaki's track record of recommendations I understand you following this path. I don't believe that there's a single "best" capacitor anyway, rather there are several very worthy choices with their own strengths. Sometimes the nitpicking can be a bit much.
Charles, |
Charles, Grannyring,
Thank you again! Grannyring, after the success with the Western Electric WE16ga speaker wire and Belden 8402 interconnect that Yazaki-san suggested to us as well as all the accolades Jeff Day heaped upon Yazaki-san for the capacitor and resistor changes to his McIntosh MC30s I believe I will take his suggestion. Day also re-wired his Dueland Cast external crossover for his Tannoy Royal Westminster with the WE16ga with great success. I suppose if I'm going this far (for me), the Jupiter Caps are always available to me in standby mode. I intend to also experiment, first with my Tekton M-Lore speakers and re-wire with the WE16ga as well as upgrade the Caps. If success, will do the Tekton Lore. Best to both of you. Rob
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I understand Charles. Rob, the coupling caps in your amp will make a very nice improvement with Vcap, Jupiter, or Duelund. I am just not 100% sure on the Arizona caps to be honest. |
Bill,
To be fair, Israel provided me with values upon email request. You're right in that he isn't an advocate of much modification to his products. I do believe he approves Vcap Cu foil as a input capacitor replacement for the Solens.
Charles, |
He will not based on my past correspondence with him. He does not want you to mess with the amp period. He went so far as to tell me I was wasting my time and these boutique parts would not make a positive difference. This was a couple of years ago however and he may have come around to the truth by now.
He should not pass out a schematic and I don't blame him. My comments are on his openness to help a DIY or mod improvement.
Might as well try as he may have mellowed on this as time has passed and other owners in good standing with him have done mods with great results. |
Rob,
I'm not sure if Israel would provide a schematic but he'd give you part values if requested. I look forward to reading about your outcome and listening experiences.
Charles, |
