Tasouli
Take a look at my system page....many changes. My new speaker is Lahave and I upgraded the crossover and placed it externally.
I purchased them from Chris at Jupiter directly. He has a few now, but not enough to add them to his website just yet. No retailer has them just yet....but very soon. |
I've ordered the Jupiter Cu foil capacitors. One pair of the 0.47uf were 176.00, the Duelund CAST in the same size are 380.00 per pair(The CAST have proven themselves in my system). I am curious to hear what these caps will do as coupling caps between the 1st and 2nd stages of my amplifier. If they positively impact/improve the sound of an already terrific sounding SET amplifier, I'll be impressed.
Charles, |
Charles, let us know how the Jupiter sounds in your system. I did the same like you with Dueland cap in tweeter and I loved it. |
I will have the capacitors installed tomorrow and then post an early impression in a few days. |
Charles, don't expect a tremendous difference in the Franks. Maybe because it also uses an interstage transformer, I don't know.
Is it a worthwhile improvement, I think so. The Solens on some recordings can sound a little sharp. The Jupiters are very liquid sounding with great detail, but in a natural musical way. Give them some time and you'll be very happy!
Joe |
Hi Joe,
I'm doing this primarily out of curiosity. This capacitor is in the signal path so it must affect the sound to "some" degree.I suspect the interstage transformer has a more important role in this circuit. However it seems all parts matter in audio components. The Frankenstein sounds excellent with the stock Solens capacitor, what will the Jupiter capacitor change? I'll soon find out.
Charles, |
Look out Charles as you must now look at the all important resistors in key positions. Oh ya, they matter. Some nice Vishay TX 2575 Z Foils! Also the very musical Shinkoh. Super Franks! |
"Super Franks" now there's a concept!
Bill I always appreciate your input but you go much deeper into modifications than I care to. I just go for simple yet high bang for the buck mods and leave it there. Duelund caps in my speaker Xover and DAC worked out splendidly and I'm very happy. If the Jupiter Cu foil give me half of that in the Frankenstein that would be very satisfying(given the Franks high baseline performance). I don't believe changing the input coupling capacitor(amplifier) is as "significant" as the output coupling caps in the DAC or the speaker Xover tweeter caps. I could be making wrong assumptions.
Charles, |
Agreed Charles. Resistors are relatively cheap $5-$15 and folks overlook them. They play a significant role for sure in musicality and resolution. It is certainly much easier and doable if you can perform these mods yourself and listen...change etc...If not, it can be a big hassle and expensive. |
Update on the Jupiter caps in my crossover. They have opened up nicely and I could not be more pleased. Very happy with my purchase.
They seem to open up and improve in a short 50 hours or so. I am at around 100 hours now and am told by the builder they will improve up to 200 hours. I am ecstatic with the music at 100 hours! |
Piling on the hours on the Jupiter caps. I know this will set off a firestorm.
Jupiter's are not noisy in any way have a clear top end (sometimes intoxicatingly clear) but I just do not find them in the league of the CAST in dynamics...
I will continue to give more of a listen but right now I am ticked that my CAST leaked and I do not have replacements...
Options are tying RS?
The CAST is likely 5x the volume in size of Jupiter and well, sounds it. I have yet ever to find a smaller cap a more dynamic cap...
Am I upset with the Jupiter's? No in the tight area of my amp the small size of the cap (and affordable price) is an asset and the CAST would not fit without big modifications... (plus big $$$ in several caps)
I am not sure to this day I agree with Tony's scores. I originally thought 17 for CAST would be about right. I am not sure why he rates other caps so close? Not to me...
I also have the Beeswax Jupiter's and I do not find or have not heard at least yet a big difference to the Copper's...
Tony quote on Jupiter Beeswax (good description not offensive in any way)
"I find them very pleasing to listen to".
I expect Tony to rate the Jupiter Copper's around 12?
That is my early guess... Oh how I would love the $33 cap to better the $200 one |
Strange. They are better than Duelund to many ears in electronics. That was certainly the case in my system. It could be your amp, position in circuit, your total system mix etc.... Who knows, but nothing is ever 100% for everyone.
If you don't have at least 50-100 hours, then wait. If you do, then in your system another cap may indeed be better for you.
I am a tone freak and love inner detail. Jupiter does that in spades. Dynamics? I guess I never noticed a real difference in this regard. |
I would also add this is based on the Duelund CAST caps Parts Connextion is selling. These had no paper. At least the ones I had, or the one cut in half. It could be you had a different Duelund cap?
If you still have your leaky cap, cut it in half the long way and tell us if you have any paper or just layers of plastic film like mine. |
I've had the Jupiter Cu foil capacitors in my amplifier for 6 hours and my "early" impression, this is a very good cap. Its insertion into the Frankenstein is less initially dramatic than with the CAST in my DAC and speakers at this same early stage. Is it the capacitor or is it due to different component/circuit location? One thing is clear however, it has a very natural character and the music flows realistically. The Jupiter reminds me more of the Duelund CAST than my experience with the V cap tin foil I've used. V caps are exceptional IMO but the CAST are just extraordinarily natural and right sounding, more emotion, harmonics and tone. The Jupiter seems cut from the same cloth. I'll have further impressions as they aquire
more playing time. I certainly understand that they need to burn in. I think
they could "potentially" equal the CAST or get very close. I'm not so sure
about toppling them however. Again, just quite early thoughts on an obviously fine capacitor.
Charles, |
Charles
For sure the Jupiter's more like CAST than the VCap's. I think they have some fine traits as well. I wonder if we all put different weights on different things? Plus is there a measurement of how much energy is stored in a cap? When replacing the vintage ones with Jupiter's the noise level dropped which is good the resonance dropped as well but not big change in dynamics... |
Volleyguy,
There's no question that we all have different listening criteria priorities, that's why this is such an enjoyable individual pursuit. For certain some listeners will prefer a V cap or another good teflon capacitor (could depend on specific applications). For my taste, give me Duelund CAST or the Jupiter copper foil, they are so beautifully natural. If a component or part can't produce realistic tone and timbre, I'm not interested. The music has to have breath of life and emotion.
Charles, |
If the Jupiter was 5x bigger...
I have not ever yet found the smaller type cap of the same type to be more dynamic.
Sonicaps vs. Mundorf
Jensen vs. vintage
CAST vs. VSF
Vintage vs. vintage.
Even in the sought after vintage amps the caps were bigger than the not so desirable vintage amps... |
Charles1dad, did you try the V-Cap copper type in your system?
Thanks. |
Bigkidz,
No I haven't any first hand experience with the V-cap Cu, only the tin foil teflon and their OIMP capacitors. The Cu version is highly regarded and I wonder how it compares to the Jupiter and Duelunds.
Charles, |
I have some VCap Cuft. Not my cup of tea as Jimmy would say.
They are interesting though. Super fast charge and discharge. |
Volleyguy,
Are the V-cap Cu foils artificial sounding relative to the Jupiter and the CAST? Some products yield an "ultra hifi" sound rather than what some would describe as a natural/organic sound. Is that possibly what you're hearing?
Charles, |
Well,
The Jupiter Cu foil caps are steadily improving (25 hours at this point). The sound isn't "night and day" improved compared with the stock Solens cap, Israel Blume got excellent sound using this cap in the Frankenstein (undeniable truth). But! The Jupiter is an unquestionable step further up in music reproduction, the amplifier's strengths get deliciously better. I can't speak for other amplifier topologies but this Jupiter capacitor is fabulous in my 300b SET, utterly natural and it lets the music just flow and engage you (and I was already deeply pulled in before these caps were installed).
Snopro (Joe) I must thank you for mentioning this on your system page. What a nice addition they are for our amplifiers.
Charles, |
Based on my listening experiences with Ocellia cables, Duelund CAST and now the Jupiter paper and wax products, there's something going on with the "natural" material choice philosophy. All three of these have increased the overall natural character of the sound in my system. Of course I have no science or hard proof to back me up. Their avoidance of Teflon, other synthetics and plastic has to be a major factor based purely on simply listening. Something very good is happening as a result of their materials choice. It can't be a coincidence these three companies produce strikingly similar audible results. I'd recommend these three products to anyone who prioritize organic character and true tone.
Charles, |
Yes Charles, they are an improvement just not a huge difference in the Franks. At around the 80 hr. mark they will start to sound better and really let you enjoy their utterly natural presentation!
Good Listening,
Joe |
Chaarles,
Are the V-cap Cu foils artificial sounding relative to the Jupiter and the CAST? Some products yield an "ultra hifi" sound rather than what some would describe as a natural/organic sound. Is that possibly what you're hearing?
In my experience in direct comparison installing them in a Graff 50-50 tube (very tubish sounding) amp and Counterpoint power amps (tube hybrids), I heard the Jupiter caps sound what every is describing as organic. Mid-range especially was very musical and sweet. But when comparing the Jupiter caps to the V-Cap copper caps, the Jupiter caps lost the resolution. So for instance, the V-Caps are not organic sounding but they added texture that the Jupiter caps sort of glossed over. Stand-up bass was beautiful sounding but I lost the fingers on the string, lost the resolution on the snap of the strings with the box of the stand-up bass. Backing instruments were not as dimensional and there was less separation. You probably would not notice this until you do the direct comparison. The Graff amp being more tubish sounding did not need the Jupiter organic sound, it already has that in spades. The Counterpoint amp I can change the sound as I see fit since I do all of the modifications. This is my opinion only with a very short sample of comparison. The other V-Caps don't float my boat versus the copper V-Caps. I also use a DHT preamp so I prefer the sound of no caps to having a cap in the signal path. To me when hearing complex music passages, caps cannot separate the instruments and vocals like a transformer can. IMO the DHT preamp keeps the correct tone for high, mid and low frequencies better than a cap can. Again IMO caps sound stressed to my ears in direct comparison in a preamp to the DHT preamp. The jupiter cap will be the last cap I try at this point in an amp or preamp. If I can get caps out of the signal path, that is where I am headed. Again, this is my opinion based on my limited comparisons with the above components. I do not know the design of every component listed above but I do not that I can change the sound of any of them with a resistor, volume control, filter choke in the power supply that most likely will yield a better result that any cap swap.
Just my opinions. As long as you are happy, that is all that matters.
Happy Listening.
If anyone is in the NYC area, let me know and we can set up some dates to meet and listen to music. |
Folks may recall that I've been rolling any number of caps thru a custom RK-34 pre, & line conditioners for a while. I've taken the pre and it's variations out of the loop and am only rolling in the conditioners at this time.
Mundorf SGO, Dueland Cast, CuTf V-cap, & the new Jupiter coppers, filtering/conditioning each system components. So 4 conditioner sections fed via 3 isolated lines from a sub panel. 1 leg is split into 2. one with a common mode choke & one w/out that feeds my amp, a Yamaha A-S2000. The other two individual legs go one each to dac, a Modwright Transporter, & the other to a Mac mini & g-raid which feed the transporter via ethernet.
I've shuffled these things around an awful lot and lived with the various caps feeding the different components so I thought some may derive some
value as I am satisfied I've a handle on how they interact in my rig.
First, I like the CuTf V-caps feeding my amp. They do take a long, long, time to break in, but they r fast, musical, detailed, and consistent. They don't vary in performance the way an oil cap does when in a demanding position. I can't say for sure, but I think that those teflon caps maintain their character when under duress better than other materials. I like em where there is high heat/ current draw. They pass what they r fed, not adding color or tone of their own.
I do like the oil caps, both Dueland & Mundorf SGO breath life & dimensionality (like tubes) into audio reproduction. I would not want to do without 'some' so... I prefer the Duelands on the Transporter/dac. Matched up with the right tubes and power cords it is 'just right'. Oils do great tone, body. vocals. The Transporter has a class A tube output stage, but so far the Duelands don't seem to 'shape shift' under duress or prolonged use.
The SGO filter the power for blueray, Apple TV, direct tv receiver, & a plasma tv. I like this cap. They do so much well & for a long time I bypassed em w/ the CuTfs. Ultimately they r a tad highlighted, but I still like em. My first 'oil'.... & quite frankly an excellent cap. Musical & enjoyable on the digital, i think they changed a bit when stressed by the amp section. I've all the caps in .22 values, but also a pr. of 3.3s in the SGO. With the larger cap it is possible to hear the 'shape shift' during a long session with the amp playing at relatively high volumes.
The Jupiters filter my Mac mini & my music library on the hard disk. For those who haven't tried conditioning their 'source' material it makes as
much of a difference as conditioning any other component. The speed & detail retrieval r superb and I don't believe current draw/heat is an issue on the computer/source. They seem as fast as the V-caps, a touch less body than Dueland, but very evenhanded. They demonstrate plenty of leading edge attack and extension. I like to think the Duelands on the dac just flesh it out a bit, adding a bit of meat on the bones in the same way a 6sn7 does vs a DR Russian supertube in the transporter. The V-Caps in comparison 'are not a tube'.
The overall effect is great! Open, spacious, musical, detailed, even handed, life-like, extended @ both ends, fleshed out from within so it's easy to follow musical details & fun to listen too! A great balance! The copper foil caps bring musical goodness to the proceedings. (The SGO
may not be coppers but I still enjoy em, they r simply highlighted a bit, tin foil?).
Perhaps focusing on a single cap would be better, but I'm not to sure...
Getting the right cap in the right place seems critical as I've moved these around and getting everything to fall into place was much more hard work than dumb luck. Tearing apart the way ones rig is put together for the hundredth time borders on obsession, but ....
Damn this sounds good.
CuTf do take forever, even longer to breakin. Initially they r dense and tight, very 'robust' sounding, & until you get it right may seem too 'literal', but with time, they r very good. They've got 'balls'...
The Jupiters break in much faster. Not as dense, perhaps? Would they
hold up under duress as well as the teflons? Not sure, maybe the relative lightness would be an asset, less material to 'distort', under high temp/stress. Wax being wax, like oil could be subject to the effects of heat/stress, but I can't say for sure.
I like the oils, on source. They sound a bit slower on amps in comparison which may suit some music but I noted several instances when the nature of a larger value oil cap 'changed' as a listening session went on. They seem to loose a bit of focus and you find yourself twisting the volume knob in search of more dynamic contrast.
Great caps in the wrong position have subtle but profound effects, perhaps that Hammond B-3 doesn't sound 'quite' real in dynamics or tone. The musical flow, it's timing, PRAT, can be just a touch off, artificial.
These guys don't design caps in a vacuum, more likely they are familiar with one another's and may even design to fit accordingly.
The copper foils all seem to share a common musicality with some variation in presentation.
Regards... |
Hi Bigkidz and Regismc,
Thanks for sharing your extensive observations. I don't doubt for a moment that one capacitor may be preferable to another depending on needs and application. There's no perfect product that satisfies everyone under any and all circumstances.
Charles, |
Regismc, thank you. Much better than my experience. You probably wore out a soldering iron doing this! Even with my limited experience, if you don't have the other cap to compare, you will be fine as long as you are enjoying what you are hearing, that is really all that matters. I really don't hear big improvements with specific parts, just different takes on what each does. You have to select what you prefer. Your filtering is way past what I have done in my system. I mostly focus on the power supply section for each component most pre and power components using choke and caps to filter the AC with great results. I also use tube regulation that has really reduced to noise to unmeasurable readings. I am now building separate power supply sections for the preamp and DAC. I want to try using Plitron transformers but the cost has held me up. I like to hear something before I try it out. Getting the noise level out is the key to a blacker background, space, air, separation, reducing hardness and adding dimension from my experience.
Anyway, no one in the NYC area?
Happy Listening.
|
Has anyone compared Path brand resistors to Duelund CAST in crossovers? I need two 1 ohm resistors on my tweeter and want the most natural sounding of the two. The one with no hint of brightness, hardness, or glare. Yes....needs to be resolving.
I have always used Mills MRA in past mods, but want to try one of these two. |
No Bill, I have always used Mills also. Let me know if you ever get the chance to compare. |
Grannyring, I have compared PathAudio and CAST resistors in my high-pass crossover. They both sound good but quite different. I only have one value of PathAudio which means I have only tried it in one spot but it's a critical place---the shunt side of the attenuation network which follows the crossover cap and choke. In this spot, I prefer the PathAudio. It is very clean and detailed and it has excellent bass (yes, the tweeter components affect the bass). At least initially the PathAudio is dark and recessed in the mids, but both of those colorations seem to fade away with more use. The CAST also has excellent detail and it may be even more dynamic, but the CAST resistor has several tonal irregularities---a projection in the upper mids and a serious rolloff in the bass. The treble on the CAST is also rather wispy. Be aware that both of these resistors take a very long time to settle in. The PathAudio supposedly requires several hundred hours. I don't have that many yet so it may get even better.
I use a total of 4 resistors in my high-pass crossover, and I have tried Mills, CAST, regular Duelunds and AudioNote tantalums in most of these spots. As of today I prefer a mix of Mills wirewound for the two series resistors, and one CAST and one PathAudio for the two shunt resistors.
By the way, regular Duelunds do not sound at all like CAST. They have excessive warmth and a severe rolloff in the highs, virtually the opposite of CAST resistors. |
Salectric
Thanks a bunch for your post. I take it seriously and will think more on your comments. |
Salectric
This 1 ohm resistor would be used in series with a 3.6uf Jupiter copper foil cap. Used to to tame the Raal tweeter just a tad. Just a tad. |
One other thing. As you probably know, the PathAudio resistor has 3 leads. The extra wire is for a grounding shield. So far I haven't had much luck with the ground connection. My comments are based on using it without the ground shield. After I am sure it is fully broken in , I will try the ground wire again.
Of course, Charles could hook up his ground shields to his Troy Tripoint ground box. Maybe a separate Troy for each speaker...... That was a joke but it wouldn't surprise me if someone tries this. |
By "tame" the tweeter, do you mean to sweeten or smooth the highs? If so I suspect the PathAudio would be the better choice, although I haven't actually tried it in a series role like that. A CAST would probably sound rather bright and not as cleanly focused as the PathAudio. A Mills (black body) would make the highs sharper, crisper and slightly edgy. You would also notice a significant drop in detail compared to either the CAST or PathAudio. |
Exactly....take a little edge off/sweeten as my ears have a sensitivity to highs. I have a little tinnitus. |
BigKidz,
You and Carl are welcome to cme over to my place (you've been there before when I owned Supratek) to hear my system with my new 833C amps and 26 preamp. I've fine tuned it over the last few months since I built the amps.
You can also bring over some of your stuff if you'd like to compare.
Let me know...Ait, aka Maxamillion (AA, AN), aka Magz (DIYA) |
You build the amps with those enormous tubes right? How are they sounding? We are working on a few updates but I will get in touch with you in a few weeks. Peter |
|
Oh, they sound excellent, but you can be the judge of that, I'm a little biased... |
Oh boy...I would love to see and hear those AIT amps! I dream about them:) Most amazing DIY amp ever built in my book. |
Do you live anywhere near NJ, Granny? |
No, I live in the Midwest. |
Bill, sound like you need a road trip!!! Pack-up and leave! |
Have completed the Jensen Copper Paper tube vs. the Jupiter Copper test.
My choice would be the Jensen. The cap that gets almost no attention has not even been rated by Tony Gee which is only a notch below the Duelund caps.
The Jupiter is quiet but frustratingly lacks the dynamics of the Jensen which lacks the dynamics of the CAST.
I keep thinking what if the Jupiter was 5x bigger??? (CAST is at least 5x bigger)
This brings me to my problem.
Duelund does not sell my values in the lower price for CAST, but is bragging up the RS series as a lower cost replacement. The problem is Duelund is bragging the smaller size of the cap... Is this really something we want???
Every cap I have ever tried of the same type the bigger one has been more dynamic... (and always wins)
So what is the RS a cheaper CAST? less copper etc.?
Has anyone tried the RS? I am a little nervous of them...
I wish my CAST did not leak! |
Volleyguy,
The Jupiter in my amplifier has been a successful upgrade, but this is relative to the stock Solens (so likely not a surprising result). What I don't know is what would the CAST have done in this position? Without doubt the Jupiter is a very good capacitor. Is equal to the CAST in direct comparison? Grannyring says it's better, you have very reasonable doubt. Such is the nature of High End audio, it's purely situational and subjective.
Charles, |
Go figure. I replaced the Jenson paper caps in a set of Monoblock amps and a tubed DAC. They were nice caps, but not as dynamic, airy, and resolving as the Duelund or Jupiter copper foil. I found them a tad muffled and overly warm. The bass was a tad loose. Great cap overall, but not in the league of Duelund or Jupiter in my limited experience.
Funny results you have had. I never put them in a phono section however.
I least you found what works best in your rig! That is most important. |
Charles
Yes audio is subjective in the sense of tone. I could easily the less energy of the Jupiter's. Should it have been anything else? The CAST is way bigger. I am still waiting for the smaller cap to be as dynamic.
I am not even upset with the Jupiter's performance. Major work would have needed to be done to fit CAST.
Are they better than the vintage they replaced? Much quieter.
Grannyring I agree the Jensen's are a tad muffled loose in the bass. The Jensen comparison was in the amp section not the phono that was against vintage.
I still find the Duelund CAST in a league of their own in respect to energy. I found them much quieter than say the VSF not better tone just a lot more energy and stiffer.
Hence the question how big does a cap need to be to max out dynamics?
Mundorf Supreme were much bigger than Sonicaps and the tone was similar but the Mundorfs were much more dynamic...
Grannyring can you still compare CAST vs. Jupiter's in just this one context? Not which is quieter because the Jupiter have a very clear top end. Give the cap something hard to work with like live concert. |
Volleyguy1,
I no longer have any Duelund caps to compare as I sold them all. I don't recall dynamics changing much from one to the other? I would need to listen just for that one SQ attribute to comment on in the future.
My system is very dynamic as my preamp and amps are SOTA when it comes to this attribute. It may be their design makes the differences in the caps not very noticeable in term of dynamics only.
I have certainly found Duelund caps to be dynamic. |
I placed the new Pathaudio resistors in my crossover today. They are huge and built like no other resistor I have ever seen. I will post pictures on my virtual system page ASAP.
The seem to be smoother than the Mills MRA they replaced. They need to break in, but my initial feeling is these are very smooth and easy to listen to while being very pure and transparent. |
