Ait
"For electronics the Texas Components Z-foil TX2575 resistors"
Yep they are pretty incredible, I used them where they would really count in a phono stage loading the cartridge directly, and for the gain setting... Huge difference in frequency response and transparency. Similar to using a duelund resistor in the speaker which again is not seeing a full range signal, but even much more note worthy in electronics for sure as this really shows full effect.
I belive they are no longer Texas instruments, but now under the Vishay "Naked Z" series.
However for the price you could go broke in no time trying to do a whole preamp or amp. I would just go with them in really critical signal paths and they have great effect. |
For electronics the Texas Components Z-foil TX2575 resistors will be very hard to beat. I use them extensively in my system and they are incredibly clean and clear sounding. Much, much easier to fit into electronics than the Duelund resistors (which I do use in my crossovers, by the way). |
I checked on partsconnexion and the website is not updated?
What is Rev II wire and is it just Silver or copper as well? Is the price the same?
I will for sure be following Jimmy's thread on the resistors. I have not tried any Duelund resistors as my crossover does not have any resistors. |
That's what we do I guess. With your own impregnation and winding facility, we are afforded many options.
Rev II wire is available now.
Some clients use our resistors for amps as well. |
Duelund
Hmmm you did try tar? Are turning over every rock for better sound?
I am waiting to see on partsconnexion your Rev II wire. Any idea when it is coming out?
Jimmy is trying your resistor in his pre-amp? I thought they were just for speakers? Should be interesting!
I was reading in Stereophile about the Hi-Fi show in Munich about the Korean businessman (Silbatone) who brought in a set of Western Electric speakers (not for sale) and many thought them the best in show. Anyone hear them? |
Tar did not prove successful in our testing. |
Duelund
The thread mentioned paper in tar caps. I have not heard of that but can see the sense in it for dampening. Anyone heard paper in tar caps??? |
Volleyguy,
So would I - ;) |
I have been doing some digging into the Neumann U47 tube mic. (regarded as the Holy Grail of mics)
These are known as capacitor mics. Funny thing it is tough to find out what kind of caps they used? Guys go about rebuilding them and give great focus on the $2k vintage tube etc. and treat caps as not important.
I find MUCH more difference in caps than tubes? Yes there is a difference in tubes don't get me wrong. I do not mean to upset tube guys.
One thing I will bet on with this sought after mic that those caps DO matter. I have heard many say that there is a huge variance in the U47 well no doubt if the caps are changed in such a crucial component as the mic you are going to hear it! If the mic messes the sound the whole chain is done.
I did read one guy claims to have reproduced the sound using silver foil caps. Well at least I can understand that.
There is 3 caps and 8 resistors in the mic and no one can clone it? (I bet money it is the caps or caps resistor combo)
They mentioned paper in tar??? Could that be part of the U47 sound???
Funny in the thread the guy mentions using modern Audionote, Auricap, Mundorf or "maybe even a Duelund if it could fit" Now that I would like to hear! I have yet to hear as good a vintage cap.
It could be possible to better the U47 mic.
Duelund you really need to get these parts in commercial products. I would be thrilled! |
Sorry to interupt the resonance dampening discussion.
As I had mentioned long ago I am still very intrigued by why the recording process improved till the late 60's. As much as I have enjoyed the Duelund parts they clearly reveal that the recording process is just as important. The recordings using tube mixers and (likely foil caps) and Nueman U47 mics sound fantastic! I have read that Frank Sinatra would walk out of the studio if they did not have a "Teley" (relabeled Nueman) tube mic. |
Ait
I wondered who would post first about this catch point. I agree... this was an experiment based on effects of damping and their side effects. All of this was done 8 or so years ago. Since then we use brass shot as the fill material around the conductors. Still overdamping can be expected with the non ferrous materials as well. Try removing the ferrous cover from your AC mains and hear what happens. Bends the fields of flux? Tom |
Tweak,
I would think that a magnetic material such as steel would not be ideal for placing around crossover components, especially air-core inductors. That would definitely interact with the magnetic fields produced by the inductors, in unpredictable and probably deleterious ways. Non-magnetics would be preferable IMO. |
I have been working a lot lately.
The friend has his Khorns and Fisher. This system must have left an impression on him as he was up half the night for the next several nights. I said go slow take his time but he then drove to Indianapolis (speakers) and then to Chicago to get and amp.
Now back to being picky. I am going to get some Duelund speaker wire for sure, just not sure if Copper or Silver? I would like some speaker wire so I can say for sure favourite caps in the amp. So far it is the Duelund VSF over the Jensen Copper Foil both are very good though. The difference seems to be aliveness, naturalness and liquidity. Duelund excells at making you think you are not even listening to a stereo.
Going to take over the amp to his speakers so he can hear the difference. (Jensen and Duelund caps) |
Sherod the wire I used in the cabinet and everywhere else has a small insulated cavity around the conductor that was filled with the same steel bearing I experimented with inside the crossover. The wire could be overfilled to the point where it to would dry out the sound. With the right quantity of fill material this wire with fill treatment sounded better than the very same wire without any treatment at all. A little of this bearing product goes a long way on reducing microphonics and a little too much more shuts the open air sound down. Tom |
Mingles,
We agree completely - I was just pointing out, that treating the casing for resonance, may not treat the actual component. |
So in a nutshell, draining the vibrations away vs. dampening would be most effective. How about the way the internal speaker wires are routed in the cabinet? |
You want to minimize the storage time by tensioning the components of the crossover to a mother board such as Ironwood or brass terminated to ground...the floor with single piece footers, preference of brass or bronze.
I have added bags of steel shot to a outboard crossover such as the one mentioned above. At first adding single zipped locked bags of steel shot over and around components seemed to make for an improvement certainly a difference...made everything blacker/darker. After awhile I decided the music had died away. I played the same disc over and over again while removing single bags of shot. Each time more of the music came back with each successive removal...finally all the bags were gone and the music returned to the room. That was ten years back.Today I would improve my choice of components and expand upon the tensioning grounding methods applied elsewhere in my system with no soft damping materials at all. Damping will increase the storage time of resonance. Trapped. Tom |
remember a lot of components are not very well connected to the casing, so even if you damp the casing of a cap, the windings themselves might resonate all on their own.
Duelund_coherent_audio (Answers | This Thread) That's a good point, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to damp them. In my thinking, it can only help. Caps and inductors shouldn't be exposed to vibration. Damping will prevent additional vibration from entering the picture. Whether this makes an audible improvement is a question, but the cost is so small, why not do it? I just haven't seen anyone talk about it, so I thought I'd bring it up. I agree with your premise that the quality of components is first and foremost in terms of importance. |
Agree with Face, also remember a lot of components are not very well connected to the casing, so even if you damp the casing of a cap, the windings themselves might resonate all on their own. |
I do have mine sitting on cloth and plywood and the plywood is on cork. I am not sure if this is good or not it just was what was already here.
Maybe duelund could comment on the need (or no need) for isolation and what kind? |
You will want to tension and mechanically hard mount the external crossover components but not damp them with some type of soft pour material or silicon. The whole assembly then needs to be coupled to good old Mother Earth for resonance to pass thru. Tom |
Careful consideration has to be given to heat dissipation, especially when it comes to resistors. |
Has anyone considered "potting" their external crossovers in some sort of viscoelastic gel? If vibration has such a negative influence on caps and inductors, wouldn't damping be the solution? Some of you have gone to great lengths to externalize your crossovers. For these folks, there shouldn't be any debate on the merits of isolating components from vibration, yet I haven't seen or heard anyone talk about damping the external crossover using Dynamat or similar products. Any thoughts on this? |
Steen was very much into horns. He rose to "fame" in Denmark in the 70's due to some diy horn designs published in the Danish magazine High Fidelity.
He always said, he's goal with everything he did, cross over design, parts, drive units was to take the best from single driver horns and fuse it with the bandwith of multiway speaker systems. |
Not sure if you are around Frederik? I have been looking for some info on Steen's interest in horn speakers.
My midrange horn is an Atlas Alnico patterned after the famous Western Electric 555W. (and it sounds FANTASTIC) The last WE sold on e-bay for $5,500 each. Klipsch at one time just used WE drivers but likely had the Atlas build it for them after WE went under?
http://www.audioanthology.com/audio1.html
Any info on how much Steen was into horns? Anyone and which types?
Anyone heard (other than in the theater) vintage Western Electric compression drivers? (originals not copies)
Just trying to figure out the difference in quality of compression drivers from the copy (I have) and the original? I just do not get it no matter how good the WE 555 is it still needs excellent parts in front of it as this guy has found out.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/western/audio/field_555_4/field_555_4_E.htm
Thanks |
Friends Khorns have AK-3 network. I seen them tonight but have not heard them. I gave him Steen's paper on speakers link. (the best article I have ever seen on speakers)
It is very easy to understand why many prefer the older Klipsch networks. They had foil in oil caps not poly. The AK's have poly. My CAST caps for the tweeter have to be at least 50x the size of his!
Friend only heard the Khorns briefly and said they sounded horrible. Poor conditions and amp he thinks. Hmmmm? I don't think so.
I read some of the Merlin thread on the Duelund site. He talks about the different things he hears. I do often wonder about other speakers with this level of parts? I would really like to compare mine to other speakers with Duelund parts.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=291879 |
The friends comments were interesting.
1 Doesn't even sound like a stereo.
2 Very Clear.
3 Very natural sounding.
4 Didn't know CD could sound like that.
5 He was looking at new DS's but said "I can not imagine better digital sound". (this assumed a lowly CD was a problem)
4 Vinyl not worth it.
He was thinking of a turntable and I can not argue with his comment as Duelund seems to take away nasty's from digital. Vinyl still has of course the ticks and pops and worst of all wear that can be soooo easily and clearly heard.
In fact I will spend no more on turntable upgrades. Not anti analog just vinyl wears to easily.
I have thought about how this has happened to a former vinyl guy? I think Duelund has a smoothing effect. The main difference I can hear with Jensen is Duelund sounds more liquid and natural. Not soft but just liquid. I think the silk oil construction?
This seems to really help digital. (spent the first month pinching myself listening to digital after getting first Duelund caps)
I believe vinyl is already (of course) analog so does not need smoothing. Is some of the vinyl craze merely that vinyl compensates for either SS harshness or dry sounding caps?
At this point though my next upgrade will be Duelund speaker wire either Silver or copper. I hear Rev II is coming out but do not know what that means?
I really miss the Silver wire now that it is used up in my other speaker.
When I upgrade the speaker cable I will get back to the last few caps in the amp. I may even sell the LP12. (mostly sentimental reason for keeping now) |
Well he bought the Khorns.
Good news for Duelund. He does not mind the idea of another $4k in parts just for the speakers.
We went looking at systems and I just said he should come here mine as a reference to other systems.
That seemed to be it, no more looking. He thinks I am obsessive over internal parts. We'll see. |
Well he is off it Indiana tomorrow to buy a pair of Khorns and vintage tube amp.
He was over today and could hear a difference from the Jensen and Duelund and he liked the Jensen signal better. I did not tell him which he was listening too. He was going back and forth but and was confused. Half an hour is not long enough to really form a good opinion.
I disagree and so far like the Duelund better. It has only been a few days. They do sound like the same family though. |
Reynolds853
I understand what you mean now about being lucky. He is lucky as he gets to hear the cap comparisons first hand without having to part with the $$$ first where else can one do that unless someone has a friend?
He is coming by today as I am trying to get him to fully understand what he is getting into. He is already to drive 9 hours each way to the U.S. (like right away!) to get a set of Khorns and buy a vintage tube amp right away. He has now spent a ton of time on the net checking things out, I am sure we can all relate to that.
I have told him the passive & active caps/inductors/silver hook wire are HUGE part of the equation. The Fisher and the Khorns are the cheap part!
I told him he needs to hear a stock Fisher (which is what he will be buying) and a stock set of Klipsch (Heresy's I have for Alnico drivers) to give a more accurate assessment.
Last time he was here I did not ask him (forgot) which channel was better the mostly Duelund (amp) or the Jensen. He will have no way of knowing so let's see if he can hear the difference. |
Sorry for any irritation I have caused.
I only meant that for anyone who thinks caps all sound the same they for sure do not and even caps of relative style (and likely rating) Ampohm (foil in Mylar) Jensen style there is a very big difference from each other. |
To echo Face's comment, opinions about capacitor performance vary not only between speakers and electronics, but generally from application to application. I arrive at this conclusion as ClarityCap's North American OEM Sales Agency, through feedback on evaluation of many sample sets provided to both speaker and electronics manufacturers. |
The friend was by today and is now bidding on a mint 500c off e-bay. He does not want to really even look at systems anymore.
I have said it is much more than just the Fisher and not to go crazy and hear some more systems. He thinks it sounds really natural like a life presence.
His opinion was similiar to mine this system sounds much better than the $60k new system and on a different planet than 10k gets you. There is a store with some of the very finest brands in the world that we are going to go to within a week.
Now I want to hear better.
Duelund I think you are going to sell some more caps. |
Face I believe you are correct and of course electronics are different that crossover and caps are of course speaker specific to a point.
I do want to clarify that I am not negative on the Ampohm. I have said I really like some of the vintage foil in mylar (why I bought the vintage amp in the first place)and these caps are designed to replace them and do and excellent job of it.
Just installed the Jensen and it is shocking how easy it is to hear just one cap from another. Sounds totally different than Ampohm and I mean huge. |
Tony's reviews and rankings are based on his experience with those capacitors used in loudspeaker crossovers, not electronics.
How a capacitor sounds in a loudspeaker does not directly correlate with how it will sound in electronics. |
Reynolds
I have various vintage tube amps nothing crazy although the vintage foil in mylar caps sound almost exactly like Ampohms foil in mylar which Tony Gee ranks 3rd to the two Duelund's.
Favourite amp would be the EL84 but do most testing on a Fisher 500c. (just more room for these big caps as you are aware of the size) I am not a "vintage guy" though before this thread I owned none. Tubes are Russian EH's and vintage Telefunkens 12AX7's and on the EL84 vintage 6BQ5's Mullards. Lots of other tubes as well.
Front end is an Linn LP12 loaded to former (late 90's) specs before all the new stuff came out.
I think you will find that the bigger, heavier (Duelund) caps are more dynamic and of course sound better. To me they sound like they look, feel and "smell". A thick dense solid beautiful natural sound.
Don't you think they even smell natural???
Do let us know.
I am doing the Duelund VSF vs. Jensen test tomorrow. |
Volleyguy: Your friend is lucky to have your help.
Volleyguy and Iris65: I'm curious, what components do you have in your system? I have Rogue 99Magnum preamp and M180 monoblocks. I'm running NOS RCA tubes that I got from Andy.
My VSFs arrived the other day. These things are dense! They feel like they just have to sound good! I took them by the shop. I dug out a regular $3 cap (3.3micF just like the Duelund)... the two shop owners were in separate parts of the shop, so I did this separately...I had each close his eyes and hold out both hands. I put the $3 cap in one hand, then the Duelund in the other. Both times their eyes shot open! It was good for a few laughs. I can only imagine how heavy those cast caps must be!
It may be a week or so before I can get them put into my speakers - I'm out of town at the end of next week and have to get ahead on a project at work before I leave. But I'll update you guys when I finally get them in. |
I was out with a friend to local hi-fi store. He is looking for a system.
Started with a $10k system. Terrible!
Then heard two $40k to $60k systems. They were getting closer both SS systems by well known names U.S. and U.K. won't say which.
The one from the U.K. I heard the most and sounded nice but could easily pick up the grain in the sound.
That system had maybe better bottom end extension and front to back sound stage. As far as tonality and realism not even in the same league.
The friend is coming over and has never heard mine so we'll see? I am just presenting another option that I feel is MUCH better and wayyyy more cost effective. Used speakers gutted crossover, used vintage amp that can easily replace caps in. He likes new stuff though. It shall be interesting to see if you get more work Frederik. |
Reynolds853,
Please keep me posted. Also I would like to hear your thoughts on the Cast resistors once you install them. |
Irish,
Thanks for your note. For my SR17.5 speakers I did get the CAST resistor. I received shipping notification on Thursday, so maybe by next weekend I'll be getting my first impression of the new crossover.
As for the Bolero, I don't know the values yet as my friend has not had a chance to measure them yet. It may take him a little while to get to it, but once he does I'll pass along the information.
Thanks again for your help. |
Reynolds,
Yes. Putting the VSF in an outboard xover eliminates the resonating cabinet and will close the gap some between them and their Cast big brother.
The cost between the Duelund resistors and the Cast version are worth the little extra you will pay for them. If there is a small value cap on the tweeter then it would be worthwhile to consider the Cast.
What are the values in the Bolero xover? |
Irish65 and Volleyguy,
Thank you for your comments about the external crossover. While I cannot pursue that option with my current project, I am working with a friend on an outboard crossover for his Silverline Bolero speakers. His project is moving along slowly at the moment but I am sure both of your council will be very helpful when things get going again.
The Duelund cast components my be a little too pricey, but since the crossover would be isolated from vibration by virtue of its being outboard, would the sonic gap between the VSF and CAST components be substantially narrowed?
Thanks for both of your help. |
Been away for a week on a cruise. Spent as much time as possible listening to Jazz trio and excellent String quartet from Kiev, Ukraine.
I have never listened so intensely to compare to a system as it was never even close in the past.
Well it is still not close. Violins are really tough! To get that high freq while still having a natural woody sound, not easy.
Reynolds I have to agree with Irish on outboard crossover. You may want the space once you hear just how much is lost in the crossover. The inductor is huge. I had sent an email to Tony Gee about rating them as well, the not talked about part. I was shocked at how much less (high freq) noise came from the Duelund inductor. (VSF) I was not expecting less high freq noise at all. Back in this thread awhile ago there was a link to a Clarity White paper on caps and the resonant noise they ALL produce.
Frederik I agree with you now about Steen saying about the CAST having no (or less) addition to the signal compared to his own VSF's. |
Reynolds853 ,
Just a thought but if you are willing to invest the funds into upgrading your speakers why limit yourself to what can fit into your speaker?
Have an external Xover built to house your new filter and you can use the Cast. I have been down that road and have crossed over to the other side. The Cast are well worth the additional price.
And do not limit yourself to resistors and capacitors. The Duelund Cast inductors are a must have. As good as Duelund caps are, compared to other manufacturer's, their inductors widen the gap even further when compared to other inductors on the market.
You can email me if you want to discuss what I have tried. |
Volleyguy,
Wow! Thank you for your responses. I had kept the original internal wiring and only changed the capacitor and resistor. I had been reluctant to change the inductor or internal wiring, but do you have some wire in mind?
Also, I hate to admit it, but I had not thought about the noise. Ive been so focused on tone. But no matter how much Id rather have the CAST capacitors, I dont have room in my Silverline SR17.5 speakers.
But I did order a pair of CAST resistors today. I think they are normally about 12.5cm long, but to fit into my limited space, Frederik is going to make them 10cm x 0.8cm.
PartsConnexion is having a 15% off sale, but still the total for the two caps and two resistors was around $400. I hope that's enough $$$ for caps that are not too noisy! I'm hoping too that my (although ballsy) monitor speakers won't vibrate the caps enough to make resonance become an issue. I sure know the S/G/O seems quiet to me and if the VSFs are that quiet, then I'll be a happy camper.
And thanks again for your help! |
This thread started off by wondering why did a vintage tube amp with all foil caps and vintage speakers with all foil caps sound so alive compared to modern hi-fi.
Not sure if anyone has noticed but in Tony's top caps the top three are all foil caps CAST, VSF and Ampohm. When he tests the Jensen I will bet that the top 4 will be foil.
Since that time Frederik had said Steen used vintage caps until he used his own. In testing the Ampohm caps I can not tell the difference from vintage Vishay ERO caps. I would rate the vintage Vishay around 12 if Ampohm is 12.5. In all the caps that Tony has too choose from his 3rd best (Ampohm) sounds exactly like 50+ year old vintage! In fact the tube store sells these largely to guitar guys looking for the vintage tone and Ampohm is VERY good at vintage.
http://thetubestore.com/
When I started doing my speaker people told me "all" new caps would be better. I found only Duelund to be better in the midrange. (again foil)
In Jimmy's tests of the most modern caps #1 and #2 were foil caps. (CAST, Jensen Copper Paper tube)
Reynolds you might find yourself going the way that many of us have. In my mind CAST and VSF do not sound that different. You are paying your $$$ for lower noise. In fact right from vintage to Ampohm to VSF and CAST the biggest difference is resonance and noise and how much you can live with either. |
Ampohm test
I had wondered if pairing an Ampohm with a Jensen Copper Paper tube would correct some of the Ampohm's weakness.
The Jensen is bass strong and dynamic unlike the Ampohm. Ampohm has the "see through" but flat sound. (to me almost exactly like vintage Vishay ERO foil in mylar)
Tony talks about cooking a little of this a little of that.
Ampohm caps rated even higher by Tony than Mundorf S/G/O are a much cheaper than Mundorf and a fraction of Duelund VSF or CAST.
So does it work? Still testing but it is closer than you would think for $100 of caps vs. $400. Duelund costs do not drop (I expect due to being hand made) when in smaller values.
A couple more days and I want to hear Jensen vs. Duelund VSF.
The cap that does not seem to get much talk the Jensen Copper Paper Tube. Jimmy had thought it and the CAST the best of the bunch with VCaps, S/G/O and old Jensens. |
Reynolds853
While doing your speaker have you thought about the internal wiring? Not sure what you are now?
I must agree Duelund/Frederik do seem to want to keep a group of products whose sound quality improvement is very real. The only Duelund product I have tried that was not excellent was the round copper wire and they no longer sell it.
There is no shame in VSF's so not to worry. I had two CAST and two VSF's in the tweeter circuit and prefered of all combinations the CAST followed by the VSF. (two CAST's were very good as well)
Reynolds I expect your going to say a tonal improvement. |
Volleyguy and Irish65:
I wanted to thank you both for your responses. I am going to place my order for a pair of the new CAST resistors today. Duelund is going to make them a little shorter and wider than the standard offering so that they'll fit better in my speakers.
And I must add to this thread that over the weekend I exchanged several emails with Frederik Caroe, owner and founder of Duelund Coherent Audio. He was a huge help! When discussing the dimensions of his CAST copper capacitors he offered to custom make them if necessary to make them fit in my speakers. I didn't follow up on that discussion because I suspected they would still be too big for my application (too bad!!!!) so that's why I opted for the VSFs.
But the point I want to make is that working with Duelund Coherent Audio has been great. I haven't even heard Frederik's products but I am already a big fan of his company and give my highest recommendation to anyone considering his products.
Also, regarding the potential for the VSFs to sound flatter compared to the Mundorf S/G/O, I asked Frederik about that and I trust that he won't mind me posting his reply to me on the subject:
"It's not a question of lack of depth, the VSF simply doesn't sound shut in like a metalized cap does. The shut in effect is often mistaken for depth."
That response has me very intrigued and anxious to experience the new sound that my system is going to provide. I'll update this thread accordingly, but it'll take a couple of months for everything to arrive and get broken in. |
Reynold853
I can not comment on the S/G/O as I have only had the S/O. Do post back on here it should be interesting. The VSF may come across as flatter but with better tonal richness.
Dgarretson did mention long ago something that I believe that we should go after the era of weakness for most improvement.
I have not used a Duelund resistor as I do not need any but the most common comment I have heard is a no brainer on Duelund resistor. |
